Hello humans, robots, aliens, plants, and beings beyond comprehension. I am here to (finally) present my argument for Robin! This has honestly been a long time coming. I've presented arguments many times over on Reddit, but yielded few results. Many people appreciate my dedication to the character, but are not persuaded that Robin has any place in the high-tier world of SSB4 competition. I am here to convince you otherwise; let's add magician-tactician to that list and be on our way! But, for clarification, no, I do not think Robin is a Top Ten character. If I were to pick him up and drop him somewhere else on the tier list, it would be around Top 15, probably #17 or #18. Now that I've introduced myself and why I am here, a disclaimer or two!
http://imgur.com/Bki2qsM
NEW RESULTS! Dath, first at Vitality and third at Shine, defeating 6WX twice, SuperGirlKels, Marss, Larry Lurr, and more. Athena's seventh at 2GGT Breakthrough (an Arcadian). Ignis, ninth at an Australian regional.
This is just a preview of Robin himself. His pros, cons, and competitive results. I thought it would be a good idea to open the argument with something brief for everyone to look at. A TL;DR of sorts. I got great advice on improving my argument over on Reddit (shoutout to /u/FlameCannon in particular, please don't make a "Robin Isn't Viable" post) and this is how I will do it! If you have any questions, ask away. Robin of course has more results, but I tried to keep relatively recent and important ones on the list.
To expand upon this list, I'll cover Robin's best tools. First, Thunder, Elthunder, Arcthunder, and Thoron. Each is unique and powerful in their own way. The first, a quick poke, the second, a slow-moving tool for the Neutral, Arcthunder, a powerful combo tool for punishes, and finally, Thoron, a kill move and stage-covering beam of devastation. They allow Robin to camp and B-Reverse > Roll as a landing option (because he can charge in the air and then roll when he hits the ground). Arcfire, his SideB, is a tool for Neutral (usually, sometimes impossible to use in particular match-ups) that starts combos and links into UAir for kills around 100% damage. DThrow is his combo throw; it combos into Jab, UTilt, and a charged Smash Attack (reading an immediate air-dodge) and combos into UAir at kill percentages for a true kill confirm combo. His BThrow is his kill throw. His FThrow combos into Thoron (unreliably on smaller/lighter characters) and is good for recycling edge-guards. Nosferatu is a command grab that heals Robin and is a great mix-up for landing against shield; health restoration increases as Robin's percent increases/the opponent's decreases. All of his aerials kill, and all can be made to not kill when attacking with his alternate sword (forced usage when Robin uses NAir). Robin drops his sword and tomes after several uses and can pick them up as combo and killing items. Many see this as a weakness despite it being a powerful and dangerous attribute that can also randomly cover Robin's unsafe options through stalling (making an item drop later than it should and come out as a stray hitbox). Robin can spike with his UpB and can use it as a completely safe gimping tool, spike or not. He has many more tools but this is getting long, so I'll cut myself off here. Ask me if you'd like more info, or check out my guide for Robin at the bottom! It's a review of Robin as a whole; what's good, what's bad, and what's in between.
With tools like those mentioned above, he may very well be the best zoner in the game (ignoring RosaLuma). His kills are reliable, he has a solid weight, fantastic gimping kit, good recovery, and can camp with painful ease. Unlike Toon Link, he doesn't rely on a throwing item to get kills. Items are less reliable as they can be caught, and Toon Link can't use normal aerials or grab while holding a bomb. Robin uses his special attacks to zone alongside items that kill without a followup.
A list of players representing Robin on a competitive level:
http://imgur.com/a/MbUFv
Versus Sonic/Explanation of Why Robin's Speed does not Ruin the Him: You're plausibly thinking "okay, this guy is stupid and insane, how the hell does Sonic lose to Robin!?" Weird, right? Allow me to run through the match-up the way it is supposed to be played. Sonic and Robin sit in the corners and camp each other. Yep. This is how both characters play the match-up. Did I interpret this incorrectly? Is Sonic actually supposed to abuse his speed as the fastest character fighting the slowest? Well, yes and no. Sonic of course can do this, and play a SuperGirlKels-esque, aggro, and in-your-face style against Robin, but it will fail. Robin is best when far away and avoiding confrontation, or initiating a confrontation after walling out an opponent and successfully landing an aerial or Elthunder. Sonic falls into the second category of "where is Robin most comfortable." Sure, the whole point of his character is to be Spin Dashing through shields safely because his speed makes punishes impossible, but Robin has way too much disjoint and option coverage to be susceptible to that. The reason many people look at this match-up on paper and think it's an easy win for Sonic is because of the difference in speed. However, this match-up is merely a perfect highlight of Robin's capability. In match-ups like these, Robin's speed can be ignored. He doesn't need to approach, and shouldn't approach. Sonic will likely attempt to play an aggro playstyle. He will fail, and then he will try to camp you with spin dash. Why can't Sonic camp? Arcthunder. The whole reason Sonic's aggro strategy is annoying for Robin is because he can no longer charge Thunder all the way to Arcthunder or Thoron safely, and can no longer use Arcfire in the Neutral. However, Sonic can SideB > Shield > SideB > Shield > SideB > Shield all he wants. It isn't safe to shield Arcthunder or Arcfire. If he does shield a trapping projectile, Sonic will get Checkmated, DThrow > Jabbed, and Nosferatu'd. If you have any more questions about this match-up (or the Captain Falcon match-up, as I will not be covering that one) then go ahead and do so! I am very happy to answer questions, comments, and disagreements. I tried to stay brief in this paragraph but... Yeah, that obviously didn't happen.
Versus Zero Suit Samus/Explanation of Robin's Flaws: Commonly considered to be Robin's worst match-up. Zero Suit doesn't care about Arcfire because of DownB and her grab. Robin gets combo'd to hell and back, and can't really land any of his trapping projectiles or a grab. Zero Suit Samus can win in Neutral a few times to succeed, but we need many more. Of course Robin's neutral is stupendous, but her ZAir, DownB, NeutralB, and Grab don't care so much. We die early, get combo'd hard, and can't camp comfortably. This match-up highlights Robin's vulnerability to characters who combo well while doing just as good or better than Robin in Neutral. Sheik, Mario, Pikachu, Cloud, and Mewtwo put Robin in similarly difficult situations. It is very challenging to camp someone who is fast and has low-risk projectiles for their Neutral. Top-it-off with godlike frame data and you're starting to make something that looks like a bad match-up for Robin.
If you are interested in learning Robin, you can read my guide here: https://www.dropbox.com/s/k18z154fspmm8wp/Robin%20Guide.pdf?dl=0
That's all from me. Before I go, I'd like to thank the Robin Discord Group for helping me learn about the game and about my character. Thank you to the users "-Xero" and "Delzethin" in particular. Follow them on Twitter, @ColeXero and @Delthezin if you want to. They're great. Also thank you to my training partner who helps me improve so much.
If you'd like to see more from me, you can follow me on Twitter @Chapter_Liam and find me on Reddit under the name /u/ChapterLiam.
Please add to the discussion! Agree, disagree, or yell at me with personal hatred without elaboration.
Thank you for reading, and please reconsider your view of Robin; hopefully I have convinced you that he is deserving of a spot in the Top 20.
- Disclaimer: This argument is being presented during Update 1.1.6, thought to be the final update for SSB4
- Disclaimer: I will use "he" for Robin because I play as Default Male Robin; this is just because it's annoying to use "he/she" every sentence.
- Disclaimer: Don't yell at me if I'm not responding super fast over here! I want to present my argument on SmashBoards to deliver my perspective to as big an audience as possible, but it is quite likely that I will be more present on Reddit (where I intend to link this debate).
http://imgur.com/Bki2qsM
NEW RESULTS! Dath, first at Vitality and third at Shine, defeating 6WX twice, SuperGirlKels, Marss, Larry Lurr, and more. Athena's seventh at 2GGT Breakthrough (an Arcadian). Ignis, ninth at an Australian regional.
This is just a preview of Robin himself. His pros, cons, and competitive results. I thought it would be a good idea to open the argument with something brief for everyone to look at. A TL;DR of sorts. I got great advice on improving my argument over on Reddit (shoutout to /u/FlameCannon in particular, please don't make a "Robin Isn't Viable" post) and this is how I will do it! If you have any questions, ask away. Robin of course has more results, but I tried to keep relatively recent and important ones on the list.
To expand upon this list, I'll cover Robin's best tools. First, Thunder, Elthunder, Arcthunder, and Thoron. Each is unique and powerful in their own way. The first, a quick poke, the second, a slow-moving tool for the Neutral, Arcthunder, a powerful combo tool for punishes, and finally, Thoron, a kill move and stage-covering beam of devastation. They allow Robin to camp and B-Reverse > Roll as a landing option (because he can charge in the air and then roll when he hits the ground). Arcfire, his SideB, is a tool for Neutral (usually, sometimes impossible to use in particular match-ups) that starts combos and links into UAir for kills around 100% damage. DThrow is his combo throw; it combos into Jab, UTilt, and a charged Smash Attack (reading an immediate air-dodge) and combos into UAir at kill percentages for a true kill confirm combo. His BThrow is his kill throw. His FThrow combos into Thoron (unreliably on smaller/lighter characters) and is good for recycling edge-guards. Nosferatu is a command grab that heals Robin and is a great mix-up for landing against shield; health restoration increases as Robin's percent increases/the opponent's decreases. All of his aerials kill, and all can be made to not kill when attacking with his alternate sword (forced usage when Robin uses NAir). Robin drops his sword and tomes after several uses and can pick them up as combo and killing items. Many see this as a weakness despite it being a powerful and dangerous attribute that can also randomly cover Robin's unsafe options through stalling (making an item drop later than it should and come out as a stray hitbox). Robin can spike with his UpB and can use it as a completely safe gimping tool, spike or not. He has many more tools but this is getting long, so I'll cut myself off here. Ask me if you'd like more info, or check out my guide for Robin at the bottom! It's a review of Robin as a whole; what's good, what's bad, and what's in between.
With tools like those mentioned above, he may very well be the best zoner in the game (ignoring RosaLuma). His kills are reliable, he has a solid weight, fantastic gimping kit, good recovery, and can camp with painful ease. Unlike Toon Link, he doesn't rely on a throwing item to get kills. Items are less reliable as they can be caught, and Toon Link can't use normal aerials or grab while holding a bomb. Robin uses his special attacks to zone alongside items that kill without a followup.
A list of players representing Robin on a competitive level:
- Dath
- Nairo (obviously a secondary)
- Raziek (recently switched to Cloud/Corrin/Robin trio)
- Jerm
- Johan
- Mr. II
- Athena
- Pheno
- eXMeL (inactive?)
- Smash G0D (inactive?)
- Ignis (an Australian PR'd Robin player, co-mains Mario)
http://imgur.com/a/MbUFv
Versus Sonic/Explanation of Why Robin's Speed does not Ruin the Him: You're plausibly thinking "okay, this guy is stupid and insane, how the hell does Sonic lose to Robin!?" Weird, right? Allow me to run through the match-up the way it is supposed to be played. Sonic and Robin sit in the corners and camp each other. Yep. This is how both characters play the match-up. Did I interpret this incorrectly? Is Sonic actually supposed to abuse his speed as the fastest character fighting the slowest? Well, yes and no. Sonic of course can do this, and play a SuperGirlKels-esque, aggro, and in-your-face style against Robin, but it will fail. Robin is best when far away and avoiding confrontation, or initiating a confrontation after walling out an opponent and successfully landing an aerial or Elthunder. Sonic falls into the second category of "where is Robin most comfortable." Sure, the whole point of his character is to be Spin Dashing through shields safely because his speed makes punishes impossible, but Robin has way too much disjoint and option coverage to be susceptible to that. The reason many people look at this match-up on paper and think it's an easy win for Sonic is because of the difference in speed. However, this match-up is merely a perfect highlight of Robin's capability. In match-ups like these, Robin's speed can be ignored. He doesn't need to approach, and shouldn't approach. Sonic will likely attempt to play an aggro playstyle. He will fail, and then he will try to camp you with spin dash. Why can't Sonic camp? Arcthunder. The whole reason Sonic's aggro strategy is annoying for Robin is because he can no longer charge Thunder all the way to Arcthunder or Thoron safely, and can no longer use Arcfire in the Neutral. However, Sonic can SideB > Shield > SideB > Shield > SideB > Shield all he wants. It isn't safe to shield Arcthunder or Arcfire. If he does shield a trapping projectile, Sonic will get Checkmated, DThrow > Jabbed, and Nosferatu'd. If you have any more questions about this match-up (or the Captain Falcon match-up, as I will not be covering that one) then go ahead and do so! I am very happy to answer questions, comments, and disagreements. I tried to stay brief in this paragraph but... Yeah, that obviously didn't happen.
Versus Zero Suit Samus/Explanation of Robin's Flaws: Commonly considered to be Robin's worst match-up. Zero Suit doesn't care about Arcfire because of DownB and her grab. Robin gets combo'd to hell and back, and can't really land any of his trapping projectiles or a grab. Zero Suit Samus can win in Neutral a few times to succeed, but we need many more. Of course Robin's neutral is stupendous, but her ZAir, DownB, NeutralB, and Grab don't care so much. We die early, get combo'd hard, and can't camp comfortably. This match-up highlights Robin's vulnerability to characters who combo well while doing just as good or better than Robin in Neutral. Sheik, Mario, Pikachu, Cloud, and Mewtwo put Robin in similarly difficult situations. It is very challenging to camp someone who is fast and has low-risk projectiles for their Neutral. Top-it-off with godlike frame data and you're starting to make something that looks like a bad match-up for Robin.
If you are interested in learning Robin, you can read my guide here: https://www.dropbox.com/s/k18z154fspmm8wp/Robin%20Guide.pdf?dl=0
That's all from me. Before I go, I'd like to thank the Robin Discord Group for helping me learn about the game and about my character. Thank you to the users "-Xero" and "Delzethin" in particular. Follow them on Twitter, @ColeXero and @Delthezin if you want to. They're great. Also thank you to my training partner who helps me improve so much.
If you'd like to see more from me, you can follow me on Twitter @Chapter_Liam and find me on Reddit under the name /u/ChapterLiam.
Please add to the discussion! Agree, disagree, or yell at me with personal hatred without elaboration.
Thank you for reading, and please reconsider your view of Robin; hopefully I have convinced you that he is deserving of a spot in the Top 20.
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