Am I the only one who thinks Bowser needs a small nerf?

[Mazdamaxsti]

So I played an online tournament today, and was doing fine. I was in the losers bracket, lost one and a DQ for the next. I faced this Charizard/Bowser. He was really good, yes, and I could see that with Charizard, he smoked me, but when it came to Bowser I felt something was up.

He has a fast sprint, he has good aerials, he could ground pound, get out of every single combo that usually works on others, he can get to high percents and kill at low percents, everything I missed got me punished, adding 30%+ onto my damage since his damage is so high, he is very combo heavy, and easy to use.

I was salty after the game, because in my 500+ matches in For Glory, and in my entire Smash existence, I never felt like something was this OP. I went into a game vs a lvl 9. I usually beat them with characters I know/kinda know, but I had never played Bowser. Sure enough, I 2 stocked him. Easily.

I mainly think that either his kill power or ability to last up until 150%+ should be removed, both together makes for an OP character. Don't flame, its an opinion on its own, but I just wanna know what you think.

 

[Gameboi834]

Maybe. I can see where you're coming from, but this has been the only game where Bowser has even had a chance at being really competitively viable. I don't want to sound accusatory or dickish or anything, but it is possible that you just need to learn the match-up more, right? Because he's big enough to be a huge punching bag, and although he can combo, he can just as easily be combo'd.

 

[Hitman JT]

Yes, yes you are.

Learn the match-up. Bowser is juggle-bait. If he's OP to you, you weren't around for Brawl and the glory that is Metaknight.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

Yes, yes you are.

Learn the match-up. Bowser is juggle-bait. If he's OP to you, you weren't around for Brawl and the glory that is Metaknight.

I was around for Brawl, but not in the competitive scene. I knew he was OP but never got the chance to actually experiencee a good MK.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

Maybe. I can see where you're coming from, but this has been the only game where Bowser has even had a chance at being really competitively viable. I don't want to sound accusatory or ****ish or anything, but it is possible that you just need to learn the match-up more, right? Because he's big enough to be a huge punching bag, and although he can combo, he can just as easily be combo'd.

True, but I feel like if I'm not playing a super fast character (like sheik), a lot of comboes don't work, I don't know why. Yes, I need to know the match up more, but from what I know, he seems to be OP in some circumstances.

 

[S_B]

He's definitely not OP.

Once you know his moves, you'll know the limited number of options he has and how to punish any of his attempts.

The way to beat Bowser is to force him to approach, either by waiting for him to attack or heckling him with projectiles. Once Bowser attacks, he'll very likely be vulnerable and open to punishment.

As for his ground pound, you never want to be directly under Bowser (NEVER chase him into the air) but more off to the side of him where he can't hit you if he ground pounds but you're still close enough to hit him when he gets near the ground. If he uses any aerial near the ground, he's going to experience some serious landing lag. That's your chance to punish.

A good Bowser can be a terror, but Bowser has more than enough weaknesses to compensate for it. Just keep exploiting them and you'll do fine.

 

[Volimutt]

#Nerfnotneeded

 

[MagiusNecros]

So who were you playing as?

 

[Jerodak]

could see that with Charizard, he smoked me, but when it came to Bowser I felt something was up.

How did you know? What was the big difference between losing to Bowser and losing to Charizard? Getting blown up by Charizard is fine but when it's Bowser something is fishy? And judging by the rest of the post it seems like you might just be overestimating Bowser quite a bit and perhaps were playing the match-up wrong. Especially if you believe Bowser to be "combo heavy" which kinda is like calling Shiek a heavy hitter.

 

[Anragon]

Bowser is a powerful character but has very glaring weaknesses such as being easily combo'ed/juggle'd or having difficult times against zoning/camping foes.

It is true that his new ground speed helps him a lot in Smash 4 and a smart/defensive Bowser is a really strong opponent. But you can still abuse his fat body and the not-so-good attack speed of his moves.
You should NEVER rush Bowser down because it is way too easy for him to put his fist in front of you and stop every "obvious" approaches you could attempt.

He definitely doesn't need a nerf or even a buff (However he NEEDS fixes for some of his mecanics *coughBowsercidecough*)

 

[Golden Sun]

This guy on for glory kept rolling, even a down smash wouldn't work, he was using a bowser, stocked me and then bowsercided me when he had 2 stocks and I had one, he kept doing this 3 times and then taunting

 

[MrEh]

So I played an online tournament today...

I was salty after the game, because in my 500+ matches in For Glory...

There's your problem mate.

I'm not even trolling either. Online is a different type of metagame, and even the smallest amounts of lag usually benefits the big heavy hitting characters. See: every fighting game in existence. Also, online tactics do not always work in real life, and vice versa.

Saying Bowser is OP is pretty unsubstantiated when he has the same weaknesses he's always had, and suffers in high levels of play because of it. Saying that Bowser can "get out of combos that usually works on others" is flat out wrong when Bowser gets comboed EASIER than most of the cast. Bowser and Ganon probably have it the worst in the entire game!

Also, calling Bowser "combo heavy" is also wrong when he basically has zero reliable combos to begin with. He comboed better in Brawl for Christ's sake. (lol grab releases)


TL:DR
Bowser isn't OP. Not even close. He's only OP at low levels of play.

 

[Mr. Bones]

This guy on for glory kept rolling, even a down smash wouldn't work, he was using a bowser, stocked me and then bowsercided me when he had 2 stocks and I had one, he kept doing this 3 times and then taunting

...Rolls are pretty terrible when they're spammed. D-smash isn't the only answer for rolls anyway.

if you were lagging badly I can see where you might have a hard time punishing it...but rolls in general aren't as OP as people think. Anyone that would spam rolls in high/top level play would be destroyed.

You just need to pay attention to your opponent and watch their pattern. If they roll towards you, have an up-tilt(You play Kirby?) ready for them and start a combo. If they roll away a lot, start chasing the roll and try a dash attack in the spot that they'll end up. Or grab them.

So I played an online tournament today, and was doing fine. I was in the losers bracket, lost one and a DQ for the next. I faced this Charizard/Bowser. He was really good, yes, and I could see that with Charizard, he smoked me, but when it came to Bowser I felt something was up.

I also felt like something was up when I saw the title of this thread...(by the way, don't take the following snarky comments personally, I also intend to help you.)

He has a fast sprint, he has good aerials, he could ground pound, get out of every single combo that usually works on others, he can get to high percents and kill at low percents, everything I missed got me punished, adding 30%+ onto my damage since his damage is so high, he is very combo heavy, and easy to use.

Fast sprint, yes. Good aerials...depends on the situation. They're good for edgeguards and follow ups...but they're by no means good enough to spam or anything like that. Dair is extremely punishable and his "ground pound" is one of the most telegraphed moves in the game.

You can punish both Dair and Bowser Bomb(the ground pound) with big attacks if they try to hit you with them. Just shield the Dair until he's on his belly, and dodge roll away from the Bomb.

He can live long and kill early, yes. His game has revolved around good reads and punishes for a long time. This game simply gives him the tools to put more pressure on the opponent. One certainly shouldn't try to be overaggressive with him...his moves are still very punishable on whiff/block/dodge. So a patient Bowser does well and pokes any openings that present themselves. You just have to be more careful and picky about your attacks.

He is not combo heavy...and holy ****...he is NOT easy to use, not well at least. It takes a lot of self control to not do something wreckless/stupid with the mighty king. ;P

I was salty after the game, because in my 500+ matches in For Glory, and in my entire Smash existence, I never felt like something was this OP. I went into a game vs a lvl 9. I usually beat them with characters I know/kinda know, but I had never played Bowser. Sure enough, I 2 stocked him. Easily.

Never try to assess the balance of a character with For Glory or....*shudders* computers. >_> I can 2 stock a level 9 with the entire cast. (I fight them every time a new Smash comes out) Bowser isn't OP. He pays for his longevity and killing power with kill moves that are either small range, slow and punishable, or both. You can't just throw out hit boxes and be a good Bowser. You have to play a little patiently and wait for an opening. Usually when our opponent's are trying to recover...THAT'S when we should be aggressive. He's a good edge guarder that can cover some options. Still can't be reckless about it or we'll get the edge guard turned around on our ass.

I mainly think that either his kill power or ability to last up until 150%+ should be removed, both together makes for an OP character. Don't flame, its an opinion on its own, but I just wanna know what you think.

No, no, and no. An OP character would be one with early kill power, longevity, AND moves with almost no lag that combo a lot. (For instance, think Sheik but with Bowser's survival ability and kill power and the same speed of moves.)

Bowser isn't OP. My Bowser might personally make him look OP...( )...but he's not going to be dangerous in the hands of some new guy that picks him up. Just be more patient in the MU. Smash_Brother also covered a lot of the important MU advice. If you want to train against the best Bowser and learn the MU more...I have the 3DS version. ;D Because I'm poor. Maybe I'll have the Wii U in January or something after I save up.

 

[B!squick]

....What?

Troll topic?

... Still waiting for the punch line...

....What? Seriously bro, you can kill him with his own SideB and make it back to the stage. I don't... What?

 

[MagiusNecros]

I really don't see why Bowser needs a nerf since anyone can humiliate him by just picking Link/Toon Link/Samus and spamming projectiles all day every day. If they know how to abuse those Projectiles Bowser can't even get close and is forced to powershield all day every day and hope the spammer makes a mistake. And good ones never do.

 

[Mr. Bones]

I really don't see why Bowser needs a nerf since anyone can humiliate him by just picking Link/Toon Link/Samus and spamming projectiles all day every day. If they know how to abuse those Projectiles Bowser can't even get close and is forced to powershield all day every day and hope the spammer makes a mistake. And good ones never do.

Not necessarily true, but yeah, he doesn't need a nerf.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Not necessarily true, but yeah, he doesn't need a nerf.

Do you have any suggestions when it comes to projectile spammers and no platforms are available to help an approach on such a player?

 

[Mr. Bones]

Do you have any suggestions when it comes to projectile spammers and no platforms are available to help an approach on such a player?

You have to powershield, yes, but not all day. If, after you rush them down, they're trying to projectile at close range for some dumb reason, just power shield that one too and start grabbing/doing whatever it is you like to do early game for damage. Once you get in on Link/Tink/Spamus, just keep threatening them with your presence and be aware of their range. Their jabs/smashes all have good end lag for punishes.

You shouldn't be bothered too much by projectiles once you get in and stick to them. Just be aware of good bomb play from all 3 and be quick to react on their tether grab attempts.

 

[MagiusNecros]

You have to powershield, yes, but not all day. If, after you rush them down, they're trying to projectile at close range for some dumb reason, just power shield that one too and start grabbing/doing whatever it is you like to do early game for damage. Once you get in on Link/Tink/Spamus, just keep threatening them with your presence and be aware of their range. Their jabs/smashes all have good end lag for punishes.

You shouldn't be bothered too much by projectiles once you get in and stick to them. Just be aware of good bomb play from all 3 and be quick to react on their tether grab attempts.

I'll have to try it. They tend to go Boomerang > Bow > Bomb. Samus is a bit easier to deal with though.

 

[Netherfall]

The boomerang is great from Link because you can normally just FB and catch him in it for its full duration since the boomerang will send you towards him on its way back. This obviously doesn't work on all Links, but it does on a good number of them. F-Smash is also possible, but not likely.

 

[MasterJack888]

So I played an online tournament today, and was doing fine. I was in the losers bracket, lost one and a DQ for the next. I faced this Charizard/Bowser. He was really good, yes, and I could see that with Charizard, he smoked me, but when it came to Bowser I felt something was up.

He has a fast sprint, he has good aerials, he could ground pound, get out of every single combo that usually works on others, he can get to high percents and kill at low percents, everything I missed got me punished, adding 30%+ onto my damage since his damage is so high, he is very combo heavy, and easy to use.

I was salty after the game, because in my 500+ matches in For Glory, and in my entire Smash existence, I never felt like something was this OP. I went into a game vs a lvl 9. I usually beat them with characters I know/kinda know, but I had never played Bowser. Sure enough, I 2 stocked him. Easily.

I mainly think that either his kill power or ability to last up until 150%+ should be removed, both together makes for an OP character. Don't flame, its an opinion on its own, but I just wanna know what you think.

I can see where your going, and I agree, The thing is using Falco or fox you can ko him because of his lack of speed. the combos falco can pull are simply pure destruction.

 

[S_B]

I'll have to try it. They tend to go Boomerang > Bow > Bomb. Samus is a bit easier to deal with though.

When you get to that range, usually the hookshot comes out. I guess spot dodging the hookshot is really the only way to go here.

 

[Shadow Blitz]

In my own personal opinion, I think Bowser is a mid tier at the moment (which is better than he has ever been!). He still suffers from being highly susceptible to combos due to his hurtbox size, and his recovery is unsafe compared to other characters in smash 4. Bowser is fine as is.

 

[MagiusNecros]

They just need to fix his Side B. At least make the result consistent.

 

[S_B]

Fixing his side B for sure and the Bowser board seems to concur that his Dsmash needs a buff of some kind, either in damage, startup speed or something.

Right now, it's too similar to grounded fortress except that fortress comes out instantly, can slide along the ground and only does 5% less damage if all hits land.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Fixing his side B for sure and the Bowser board seems to concur that his Dsmash needs a buff of some kind, either in damage, startup speed or something.

Right now, it's too similar to grounded fortress except that fortress comes out instantly, can slide along the ground and only does 5% less damage if all hits land.

Give Dsmash complete ShellGuard on the shell and I'll be just peachy. ^_^

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

I think he is just fine the way he is,but I think the fact that him and yoshi have super armor on double jump is bull****.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

I think he is just fine the way he is,but I think the fact that him and yoshi have super armor on double jump is bull****.

DK has it too.

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

DK has it too.

Well, I think if a character is going to have super armor it should only be on attacks.

 

[S_B]

I think he is just fine the way he is,but I think the fact that him and yoshi have super armor on double jump is bull****.

AFAIK, Yoshi is the only one with double jump super armor because he'd be super easy to gimp otherwise.

Bowser does not have a single frame of SA in his entire moveset.

Give Dsmash complete ShellGuard on the shell and I'll be just peachy. ^_^

That'd be nice. The other thought was to have it reflect projectiles during the spin.

I'd be fine with just a damage buff, for it to poke shields harder or have a windbox that pushes people away from the stage or sucks people into it or something.

As it stands, it's just a worse version of fortress.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Dsmash needs to be more then one frame of clank projectile. I don't think the attack should be canceled out.

 

[Mr. Bones]

DK has it too.

None of them have SA on double jump. Only Yoshi.

Well, I think if a character is going to have super armor it should only be on attacks.

His attacks don't even have SA. Only partial invincibility(in the limbs) and only for most of his grounded A moves and for Up-Air.

I'm surprised this thread is still seeing activity. Bowser isn't broken. -_-

Edit: Also Mr. Bones logic. "Why is this thread still active?" *bumps it*

Yep.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

None of them have SA on double jump. Only Yoshi.



His attacks don't even have SA. Only partial invincibility(in the limbs) and only for most of his grounded A moves and for Up-Air.

I'm surprised this thread is still seeing activity. Bowser isn't broken. -_-

Edit: Also Mr. Bones logic. "Why is this thread still active?" *bumps it*

Yep.

Bowser and DK have it on Up-B, not double jump. Sorry for the confusion.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Bowser and DK have it on Up-B, not double jump. Sorry for the confusion.

No he don't. Not Bowser anyway. His under side is vulnerable.

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

None of them have SA on double jump. Only Yoshi.



His attacks don't even have SA. Only partial invincibility(in the limbs) and only for most of his grounded A moves and for Up-Air.

I'm surprised this thread is still seeing activity. Bowser isn't broken. -_-

Edit: Also Mr. Bones logic. "Why is this thread still active?" *bumps it*

Yep.

I didn't even say he was broken, hell I even said "I think he is just fine the way he is,but I think the fact that him and yoshi have super armor on double jump is bull****." Anyways I guess I was wrong about SA on bowser's double jump. It is just that every now and then I hit a bowser player while they are in the air and they don't seem to flinch, maybe it is just that I am hitting them with a weak move so it only looks like they are not receiving any hitstun? I also didn't say his moves had SA, I only said characters should only have SA on attacks.

 

[Mr. Bones]

Bowser and DK have it on Up-B, not double jump. Sorry for the confusion.

@_@ Nope. See this V

No he don't. Not Bowser anyway. His under side is vulnerable.

The top of his shell is vulnerable during Up-B too. The only thing protecting Bowser during Up-B are the hitboxes and it can be spaced out/hit with another attack. But, this post is true; Bowser doesn't have armor on Up-B. Never has. His Up-B used to have invincibility on the first frame, but that was removed in Smash 4.

I didn't even say he was broken

Wasn't talking to you. Just the OP who thinks Bowser is broken. No problem on the other stuff though. People make mistakes.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

@_@ Nope. See this V



The top of his shell is vulnerable during Up-B too. The only thing protecting Bowser during Up-B are the hitboxes and it can be spaced out/hit with another attack. But, this post is true; Bowser doesn't have armor on Up-B. Never has. His Up-B used to have invincibility on the first frame, but that was removed in Smash 4.



Wasn't talking to you. Just the OP who thinks Bowser is broken. No problem on the other stuff though. People make mistakes.

wowowowowow I said small nerf, I never said he was broken.

 

[Conda]

A lot of people think characters needs nerfs of buffs. It's never a thread-worthy instance ever.

 

[Mr. Bones]

wowowowowow I said small nerf, I never said he was broken.

Oh, that was another thread, sorry.

But yeah, he doesn't need a nerf. No more than the "your opponent can now when the match using your own move against you" one which in itself was completely unnecessary. lol

But like the mod guy says, everyone cries for nerfs all of the time instead of taking the time to learn a MU. I've been guilty of it to.

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

Oh, that was another thread, sorry.

But yeah, he doesn't need a nerf. No more than the "your opponent can now when the match using your own move against you" one which in itself was completely unnecessary. lol

But like the mod guy says, everyone cries for nerfs all of the time instead of taking the time to learn a MU. I've been guilty of it to.

I agree,I am also guilty of this. There are only a few characters I feel really need nerfs, like obviously Diddy and Sonic. I also feel certain characters really need a nerf,but when I say other ones people usually don't agree with me, like I feel Sheik, Yoshi, and ZSS need small,but necessary nerfs.