AI vs. Online Randoms

[Grass]

I personally think the AIs were programmed well enough in this game that it's actually enjoyable to play against them. Since Melee, playing against AIs was literally just a way to pass time. But despite AI stupidity, which I don't think we're going to get past any time soon, I think the AIs make decent practice dummies. The Lvl 9's learn faster than in previous installments and there's an overall sense of fairness in everything this time around. But what do you guys think? Do you think playing random players online is better than playing against AIs? If so, why?

 

[hsuperill]

A skilled player is still much harder that against than the game's AI. I find an AI controlled player is still pretty predictable. Plus playing against other people opens you up to different playstyles.

 

[Elegant]

An AI level 9 isn't good to play against because it knows your button inputs the exact second you press them which leads to alot of powershields and other tech that isn't possible normally. DI will always be the same way, and recovery options limited.

It is better to play against people online to learn different tactics and to widen your playstyle.

 

[Grass]

An AI level 9 isn't good to play against because it knows your button inputs the exact second you press them which leads to alot of powershields and other tech that isn't possible normally. DI will always be the same way, and recovery options limited.

It is better to play against people online to learn different tactics and to widen your playstyle.

I fully agree.

 

[M.C.Jeducation]

I would also say that playing against people online is the better option.

You have to be careful playing against CPUs over and over, because soon enough you'll start to learn their patterns and start using the same tactics to beat them. Unfortunately using the tactics you learn against CPUs wont work against real humans. It creates the illusion of improvement where there is very little or none.

That being said, CPUs are still useful for some things, such as testing combos to get a feel for how they work in battle, but for the most part stick to playing people online, or if possible play people locally.

 

[Revibe]

I have learned that Shielding is something that I really needed to learn. Ai's are great, People are better, but I really like Training Mode's Slow Motion.

 

[Nimyu]

XD Training mode for the win Revibe.

 

[Raijinken]

The tendency of Lvl9s to read inputs for perfect shielding is too frustrating for me to enjoy sitting around abusing the shortcomings of their AI, but aside from that, they do seem like a nicer practice group than the past bots. Still, nothing beats sitting around and playing with friends.

 

[YELLO]

do not play people online to get better
you must play locally

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

When you got lag getting in the way, it feels so much harder to face random online opponents than when you're playing locally.

 

[Khao]

The problem with the AI is that they don't learn.

If you successfully use a specific strategy in a fight against a CPU, the same strategy will most likely work again.

In the same way, if the CPU tries to do something and you counter it, they might do the exact same thing more than once at several points.

It's not the same with human players. Humans learn and adjust every single second, they can predict what you're gonna do next based on your previous actions and react before you even move, and will try different strategies depending on how you react to them yourself (unless they're spammers, but that's another story).

At the same time, humans don't have single-frame reaction times, while CPUs do, so in the end, something that works on one might not work in the other and vice versa.

Plus, there's the fact that every single human player is different. Levels aside, every CPU is the same.

 

[Machii]

CPUs offer a better field to test ones skills than online mode does. Even the most minor input lag limits the playing field severely, catering to a very specific method of play and giving a handful of characters a huge advantage. Don't play online to improve. Play online strictly for fun. Play CPUs to improve your skill, amiibos for a challenge, and locally for ideal play. IMO "good" players online only abuse exploits catered by input lag. Competitive online is garbage.

 

[kyxsune]

Amiibo ftw, fast adaption time, and frame perfect response. You can also scale them up and down to create the perfect rival. Plus u can actually try out AT's cause there is no online lag.

I turned my pikachu into a melee monster by feeding it items that reduce landing lag, improve dodge, and speed.

 

[FGC-Oni]

The problem with the AI is that they don't learn.

Wasn't there a Fox Amiibo that almost won a local tourney somewhere.

 

[Yong Dekonk]

Training against an Amiibo is a terrible idea. These AI's are programmed to dodge your inputs and their stats are boosted artificially over time. They are not realistic opponents. Sometimes my amiibo is just plain stupid and sometimes it has reflexes only a computer can achieve.

My system for trying new characters is that I train against my amiibo or lvl 9 AI until I can win comfortably. Then play FG. Input lag will be an issue sometimes but I have a good connection most of the time with no noticeable input lag. Playing online is essential because it exposes you to the current meta game. You will face some scrubs but you will also face some really good opponents. I can beat a level 9 toon link or yoshi with ease but online is way harder. Playing locally can be good if your friends are good but you will begin to read each other way
more than you would in a tournament. You also get way more variety in FG. Bottom line, if your connection is good then online is the fastest way to get good.

 

[kyxsune]

Wasn't there a Fox Amiibo that almost won a local tourney somewhere.

Amiibo's get damage buffs as they lvl up. At lvl 50 they do 1.5 damage so not entirely fair against human, but it does increase your reaction speed by quite a bit.

 

[kyxsune]

Training against an Amiibo is a terrible idea. These AI's are programmed to dodge your inputs and their stats are boosted artificially over time. They are not realistic opponents and will fall for the same tricks over and over again like any AI.

My system for trying new characters is that I train against my amiibo or lvl 9 AI until I can win comfortably. Then play FG. Input lag will be an issue sometimes but I have a good connection most of the time with no noticeable input lag. Playing online is essential because it exposes you to the current meta game. You will face some scrubs but you will also face some really good opponents. I can beat a level 9 toon link or yoshi with ease but online is way harder. Playing locally can be good if your friends are good but you will begin to read each other wat more than you would in a tournament. You also get way more variety in FG. Bottom line, if your connection is good then online is the fastest way to get good.

They may not be realistic, (mine doesn't seem to fall for the same trick from match to match), but they are fast. They are great at pushing your reaction time.

Sadly, local play isn't an option where I live, so its either online, amiibo, or AI. Sadly the input delay online messes with my AT's and shifts the timing I use in general. I get the feeling playing online exclusively will ruin my offline play as my timing will shift too much. Though online play is GREAT for learning to read efficiently.

 

[Yong Dekonk]

When you say input delay do you mean actual visible lag? Or just very very slight input lag? (We're talking less than tents of a second) It's easy to say "darn my combo didn't work because of input lag..." But maybe you just didn't execute it properly? Maybe your reflexes weren't quite fast enough? There's definitely been some lag that has negatively effected my play. I've lost matches because of it. But it's not consistent enough to cause me to change the habits of how I execute my moves. Online is still a far better training ground than derpy AI battles that give you false confidence and no knowledge of the meta you face in tournaments.

 

[Machii]

When you say input delay do you mean actual visible lag? Or just very very slight input lag? (We're talking less than tents of a second) It's easy to say "darn my combo didn't work because of input lag..." But maybe you just didn't execute it properly? Maybe your reflexes weren't quite fast enough? There's definitely been some lag that has negatively effected my play. I've lost matches because of it. But it's not consistent enough to cause me to change the habits of how I execute my moves. Online is still a far better training ground than derpy AI battles that give you false confidence and no knowledge of the meta you face in tournaments.

I at least was referring to the slight delay. Lag spikes effect both players, and im fine losing to something obvious. But the slight input lag does make the difference when you are trying to chain aerial combos, almost as gimping as not using fast fall. The input lag also negates reaction time (this is why rolls are dominating) making engaging a game of rock paper scissors. Pick carefully and hope you throw the winning command, or pick a character that can keep flushing all other options down the toilet bowl of doom . The worst thing about the input lag is that it is almost unnoticeable and easily dismissed. I had played two weeks straight of FG and at the end decided that Smash4 was at best a little better than Brawl. I had given up, stopped playing. That is until my friend invited me for a local smash session at his place. FAITH RESTORED!! I could follow up inputs with other inputs executing pivot techniques, ledge forcing, tilts after perfect shields. I could anticipate a roll and actually punish it upon observing confirmation, I could chain combos that never felt possible while online (EIGHT HIT aerial chains). The best part was that the game felt as quick as melee, even w/o wavedashing. You could use feint techniques and execute critical strikes to create a rhythm between you and your opponent. I worked up a sweat that night, something I had never done with Brawl or Smash4 before. I do not recommend anyone spending time on FG that anticipates any local play. FG does have a meta, unfortunately it is alienated from any offline mode.

 

[kyxsune]

When you say input delay do you mean actual visible lag? Or just very very slight input lag? (We're talking less than tents of a second) It's easy to say "darn my combo didn't work because of input lag..." But maybe you just didn't execute it properly? Maybe your reflexes weren't quite fast enough? There's definitely been some lag that has negatively effected my play. I've lost matches because of it. But it's not consistent enough to cause me to change the habits of how I execute my moves. Online is still a far better training ground than derpy AI battles that give you false confidence and no knowledge of the meta you face in tournaments.

The site crashed and deleted my old response, so ill deposit a new one. Its input lag, the timing for a perfect pivot or pivot dance varies from match to match depending on the strength between our connections. Thus not allowing me to do ATs consistently.