a thought: does every major public release of this game since 3.02 divide the fanbase even more?

[IronChar]

I love how the project is still be worked on don't get me wrong.

since 3.02 and major hype days don't you find that the released divide the fanbase? in the kind of way where a major competitive scene for PM becomes more and more distant?

for me, I don't even want to "upgrade" to 3.6 because of all the stage changes alone! a lot of the changes I don't agree with- don't get me wrong it was that way from 3.02 to 3.5, yet I ended up adapting and enjoying the game, where the stages were put and how the characters played (with one exception)

so when the dev team releases a new version of the game UNDER a year, seems exciting right? well... this time I don't feel so inclined to rush out and upgrade to the newest game. for the most part I like 3.5- it doesn't need all the changes a major release has gotten.

adding the brawl stages seems clunky and useless, they disrupt the flow of certain modes, the new announcer is hit or miss the changing of certain character movements (mostly changes that make a character more difficult to play) again to have to re adapt, while change is good the way in which it is done and the timing of it is important to keep a core fan base for the competitive community. I an see more and more why people went to melee from 3.5- it'll always be the same thing! people are conferrable with this and it is something they can fall back too. I love SDRs (or even smash 4, patches with slight changes to characters and new characters added) approach to modding melee- gain more data over a year or so and make slight changes- granted SDR and PM are two different games with different goals, yet I think if PM stuck to more subtle changes it would be easier to transition

open discussion, I'm not saying I'm right but don't you find it hard to settle in with every public release of this mod? I loved life when 3.0 came out and every release since I grip cause of all the changes, why spend all these hours on a character just for a release to come in and change how they play? I also have a hard time getting past all the stage changes alone (combining these two, removing these two, bringing back brawl, remodding music...) before I can begin to download this game and... enjoy it with friends? cause now its been divided to the point where I question wanting to take part and play anymore
I'm looking forward to the day this game can be called a finished project (for the most part)

(please bring back melee peach castle)

it would appear that Project M is still in the beta stages :/

 

[qwertz143]

I completely agree with you. 3.5 seemed so balanced and almost perfect, and 3.6 just ruined that by nerfing characters and adding unnecessary stages. However I suggest we just wait and see how the metagame develops as 3.6 is still in the beta stage.

 

[Xermo]

adding the brawl stages seems clunky and useless, they disrupt the flow of certain modes,

They're ****ing alternates, and in the case of spear pillar, it's literally taking back it's original slot while still keeping saffron.

open discussion, I'm not saying I'm right but don't you find it hard to settle in with every public release of this mod?

No, you're in the minority.

 

[20PK]

Here's hoping for a 3.02 2.0 where all our characters get buffed again.

 

[IronChar]

do we really need to see spear pillar again? saffron was fine occupying that slot?

alternates that mess up single player gameplay

I'd like to see the stages left alone where they were with only some new additions, so bug fixes, removal of items in single player and improvement on AI, let the public release sit for a year or two and see what happens

there is a guy from the other topic saying how he loved and followed PM from 2.1 up till 3.02... maybe that's how a majority feel deep down? I myself eventually grew to enjoy 3.5 (again to a certain point) but to have to adapt to these changes with every new release? all I'm saying is make em more suttle


general things I do like about new release: the desire to want to add new stages, 64 peach castle HD and orginal (replacing rainbow cruse.... hit or miss I never liked that stage) adding new costumes, refining old costumes

and most of all the acknowledgement that the release is a beta

 

[Xermo]

do we really need to see spear pillar again? saffron was fine occupying that slot?

alternates that mess up single player gameplay

I'd like to see the stages left alone where they were with only some new additions, so bug fixes, removal of items in single player and improvement on AI, let the public release sit for a year or two and see what happens

Opinions couldn't be any more objectively bad. It's almost like users have no free reign to modify the content of their game to suit their tastes.

there is a guy from the other topic saying how he loved and followed PM from 2.1 up till 3.02... maybe that's how a majority feel deep down? I myself eventually grew to enjoy 3.5 (again to a certain point) but to have to adapt to these changes with every new release?

There are zero changes from 2.1 to 3.6 that require a player to "relearn" an entire character. Tweaking a few moves every patch doesn't destroy them.

 

[CORY]

and most of all the acknowledgement that the release is a beta

the entirey of pm's releases have been betas. this is not a completed game. expect things to change.

especially 3.0->3.5. 3.0 was filled with a bunch of stuff that was badly designed and led to really degenerate gameplay. no, buffing everything else up to that level isn't an answer, you get lucario who can do anything on shield into forcepalm, ike with almost no landing lag against shields, and sonic who doesn't need to commit ever oh you're trying to beat my option i'll just change options now yes right now.

 

[GFooChombey]

I think everyone has the right to be upset over character nerfs right now. Especially characters who were speculated as midtier such as Ivysaur. Why more b air nerfs, PMDT? And I get if you don't like the announcer, but you cannot complain about stages this build. We have almost twice as many stages as before. Only two stages were actually removed and one was a port that didn't even work like it used to. I loved Peach's Castle melee, but I'd rather see it return when it works right.

 

[Ningildo]

You bring up the possibility that new version releases makes a competitive scene for PM harder, yet bring up suggested changes...that supposedly improves single player. Ok.

Secondly, what character has been "nerfed"? Mewtwo hasn't received any game changing adjustments, just some numbers being changed, for the most part. I guess you COULD say Fox was nerfed, but I'd redirect you to M2K's claim of knowing objectively better nerfs for Fox (in his subjective opinion) on reddit instead, cause I really doubt we need a ****storm here (the "nerfs" don't even affect how he plays regardless, lol).

Finally (warning: opinion ahead), PM is PM. Not Project Melee, Melee HD, Melee 2.0, it's PM. Yes, it's based of Melee's physics and, yes, practicing Melee should allow you to control your character just as well in PM. However, this should not translate to being able to autowin just cause you played Melee or your character being pampered just to avoid turning you off for changing a character in a different game or anything of the sort. If you came to PM to play Melee, well, stick to Melee. PM is made and adjusted for PM players, not some Melee players who want to keep Fox the same because of essentially threatening people that they'll stop playing the game if it's not like Melee and don't care much for the game anyway.

 

[qwertz143]

Secondly, what character has been "nerfed"? Mewtwo hasn't received any game changing adjustments, just some numbers being changed, for the most part. I guess you COULD say Fox was nerfed, but I'd redirect you to M2K's claim of knowing objectively better nerfs for Fox (in his subjective opinion) on reddit instead, cause I really doubt we need a ****storm here (the "nerfs" don't even affect how he plays regardless, lol).

Well i'm disappointed by the kirby nerf tbh. It totally affected the way I play. Now with the lack of reverse edgeguard, I can't even catch ledges or spike. I hope that gets fixed in 4.0.
Let's just wait and see how the meta game develops. I hope everyone gets equally balanced.

 

[Celestis]

How is adding or returning stages ever a bad thing? It just means more options. I can't believe this is even an argument. My friends love the fun stages to play on. The return of these stages beings back more of what made Melee so perfect. We have all the stages for competitive, as well as stages that just for fun. Spear Pillar was a much better stage then safron city in my opinion and am glad to see it back. How does this argument even make sense? It's the best of both worlds.

Now after saying all that, I am pretty salty with some of the character nerfs. I really thought we were at a point where only tweaks and adjustments were needed. There were way more balanced changes then I expected.
I am pretty sure people are getting tired of having to readjust to their main character just to keep playing.

Also the Announcer is borderline terrible.. Me and my friends found ourselves not wanting to change characters because we did not want to hear the announcer call their names, it was that awkward. By the end of the day we ended up porting the 3.5 announcer over.

 

[Narpas_sword]

The real problem is how people look at the change-list find anything that is a 'nerf' and then ******* about it, not looking at the rest of the characdter, how it would work on a whole and how it fits in with all the other changes on other characters.

they just see the nerf and knee-jerk MYCHARACTER SUCKS I HAVE TO RELEARN THINGS PMDT WHY WAH WAH WAH

 

[GFooChombey]

The real problem is how people look at the change-list find anything that is a 'nerf' and then ******* about it, not looking at the rest of the characdter, how it would work on a whole and how it fits in with all the other changes on other characters.

they just see the nerf and knee-jerk MYCHARACTER SUCKS I HAVE TO RELEARN THINGS PMDT WHY WAH WAH WAH

Though I agree most of it is overreactions, there is justification behind that thinking. Some people play characters who haven't developed or are considered lower on the metaphorical tier list. Suddenly, the character receives a nerf that came out of nowhere. Were people abusing it? Was it too effective? You're right and people should adapt, but somethings are harder to relearn than others including muscle memory timings. People get tired of adapting their muscle memory every patch.

 

[Mage.]

Diving the community? The only people who got divided were m2k and a few fox players. Everyone else I've talked to has reacted to the nerfs/buffs but not such in a way that would make them quit. Some people are salty about not being able to footstool yoshi (hue) but no one is quitting. Seriously, if you dislike balance that much you'd hate LoL. Good luck trying to play a strong champion for more than three weeks. Also, smash 4 balances minimally? Tell that to diddy mains.

I mean, what characters actually got changed in a major way? I'm not talking about damage nerfs or frame nerfs. Name me a character that as a result of being changed their playstle changed completely. I can't think of any. Yes, nerfs suck. No one likes their character getting weaker but it's a part of balancing so deal with it. Whether or not the patch is more balanced than 3.5 only time will tell.

 

[Blank Mauser]

There are people that are upset about nerfs in 3.6 that weren't upset about the nerfs in 3.5?

...What?

 

[Narpas_sword]

i think its weird people complaining about having to relearn and cope with changes.
Maybe it's just different backgrounds.

a lot of games I've played competitively get patches all the time. we deal with changes and nerfs and keep playing.

are the people who complain people that have only played games that never get patched (would make sense i guess, if they're only coming from nintendo games)

 

[trash?]

there was barely even a tiny "division" when 3.5 first came out by salty pit players, and even then those scenes went to 3.5 eventually

and honestly, don't kid y'allselves here, the idea that there should be a division at all is pure entitlement. seth players can decide that they don't want to play USF4 all they want, but the rest of the world goes with the newest version, and all the actual competition is with the newest version, you don't have a say in the matter

 

[Journal]

i think its weird people complaining about having to relearn and cope with changes.
Maybe it's just different backgrounds.

a lot of games I've played competitively get patches all the time. we deal with changes and nerfs and keep playing.

are the people who complain people that have only played games that never get patched (would make sense i guess, if they're only coming from nintendo games)

i think its weird people complaining about having to relearn and cope with changes.
Maybe it's just different backgrounds.

a lot of games I've played competitively get patches all the time. we deal with changes and nerfs and keep playing.

are the people who complain people that have only played games that never get patched (would make sense i guess, if they're only coming from nintendo games)

Sure, it is a difference in philosophy, but I think it's valid. I'd say the more harmful overreaction is the knee jerk "move x is broken" when that move basically only lasts in its current iteration for a few months before it gets changed. That basically allows a play style to be developed, but not enough time for counter play to be developed, which makes things that seemed broken a lot less broken. In general, a healthier way to patch is imo to patch in ways that don't change the strategy that a character adopts in a matchup, but to change around the strength of certain options. That would make it so counter play can be developed in between patches and the meta can progress further. Right now we basically have a timer on the meta for a lot of characters that have game changing nerfs or buffs, and that sort of sucks for players that put a lot of work into their characters.

 

[himemiya]

Whether or not the patch is more balanced than 3.5 only time will tell.

It only takes a few seconds reading the changelist.

There are people that are upset about nerfs in 3.6 that weren't upset about the nerfs in 3.5?

...What?

If I recall, its just pit n zelda (my ex mains )

 

[Narpas_sword]

It only takes a few seconds reading the changelist.

People thinking they can read the changelist and understand the complete balance of the game based on it is why we have forums full of knee-jerk complaints....

 

[IronChar]

having custom music for stages makes it a PITA to have to change it all over again...

allow me to add what I think will make the next release better:

make melee peach castle bowser castle alt
cut spear pillar completely make it saffron permanently, have brawl PS2 an alt for PS2. maybe spear pillar can be alt for PS1
skyloft alt for temple
Dracula castle alt for Luigi mansion
jungle japes and rainbow cruse... does anyone like these levels?
remove items default for single player modes continue to improve AI gameplay, remove brawl stages in single player modes.

and finally start to slight buff characters. keep the melee best as close to melee as possible and continue to develop positives for all other characters, when something is taken away, try to add something equal or better that will help improve character use so no one feels like they lost something when studying there main movement and applying it in battle

all I have for now. looking forward to meta devlopment

 

[DrinkingFood]

I think everyone has the right to be upset over character nerfs right now. Especially characters who were speculated as midtier such as Ivysaur. Why more b air nerfs, PMDT? And I get if you don't like the announcer, but you cannot complain about stages this build. We have almost twice as many stages as before. Only two stages were actually removed and one was a port that didn't even work like it used to. I loved Peach's Castle melee, but I'd rather see it return when it works right.

you do recognize ivy was super buffed as a whole, right?

 

[qwertz143]

Hmmm, well when 3.6 was first released, I was butthurt by the changes. Kirby was nerfed, and the announcer sounded bored. However, a few days into playing, the changes seem livable. Kirby is still usable I just can't reverse edgeguard. However, once I got used to the playstyle everything seemed fine.
Forget about the non-tournament levels, those are extra. Extra levels are a good thing I suppose. You seem to want Peach's Castle really bad am I right? Do what I do, I keep a back up of 3.5 and switch it whenever i'm organizing a tournament, otherwise I use 3.6 to play at home. There's still lots of **** to test and a metagame to develop, so I guess we just wait and see what happens :3

 

[GFooChombey]

you do recognize ivy was super buffed as a whole, right?

I wouldn't say super buffed. It was more like trimming the roses and planting more seeds.

 

[qwertz143]

I wouldn't say super buffed. It was more like trimming the roses and planting more seeds.

Haha plant pun :3

 

[MegaMissingno]

alternates that mess up single player gameplay

Alternates do not show up in single-player. And come on, who's playing PM for the single-player anyway? It's not such a major priority that they should be throwing out stages other people want to have just so you don't have to see them in modes that are already full of items and randomness and other jank anyway.

 

[DrinkingFood]

I wouldn't say super buffed. It was more like trimming the roses and planting more seeds.

quicker to end ftilt that links better, does more damage, and is now angleable
stronger fsmash
nair links better, removed a hitbox
relevant range reduction to bair first hit, irrelevant range reduction to the more important hit
pummeling is now way better for getting solarbeam
uthrow buffed to combo way earlier and by itself is significantly better, lost some late percent follow-ups probably tho
removed semi-sweetspot from up-b, but full-tip sweetspot kills earlier now
getting hit out of solar beam no longer possible

buffs majorly outweigh nerfs tbh

 

[qwertz143]

Alternates do not show up in single-player.

Actually they do. I used to enjoy Classic Mode intense in 3.5 as it had balanced stages while fighting the opponents, while now it is who hits who in the moving lava in norfair. The slight skill part despite the items in 3.5 is gone for single-player in 3.6b

 

[GFooChombey]

quicker to end ftilt that links better, does more damage, and is now angleable
stronger fsmash
nair links better, removed a hitbox
relevant range reduction to bair first hit, irrelevant range reduction to the more important hit
pummeling is now way better for getting solarbeam
uthrow buffed to combo way earlier and by itself is significantly better, lost some late percent follow-ups probably tho
removed semi-sweetspot from up-b, but full-tip sweetspot kills earlier now
getting hit out of solar beam no longer possible

buffs majorly outweigh nerfs tbh

Let me clear up that I said b air was nerfed, not Ivysaur as a whole. So referring back to my previous metaphor, this could be a buff in the long run, but we won't know until those seeds grows and we incorporate these tools.

 

[Celestis]

I just really want this game's balance changes to slow down. Ganon had a move set change in 3.5, and Olimar's recovery in 3.6. Now Olimar's is understandable and I guess works out, but Ganon's changed some things a little. My point is, at this point in the games life, characters should never see changes in their move sets just like balance changes should be coming to a crawl.
I want a static version of PM so that the meta game can just develop with no interruptions.

 

[CORY]

the entirey of pm's releases have been betas. this is not a completed game. expect things to change.

especially 3.0->3.5. 3.0 was filled with a bunch of stuff that was badly designed and led to really degenerate gameplay. no, buffing everything else up to that level isn't an answer, you get lucario who can do anything on shield into forcepalm, ike with almost no landing lag against shields, and sonic who doesn't need to commit ever oh you're trying to beat my option i'll just change options now yes right now.

 

[MegaMissingno]

Ironically 3.0 was the first version that didn't label itself as a demo. The most broken iteration was considered the big release.

 

[MLGF]

IDK about that, no other version had enough exposure to prove it was broken.
If it did, I'm sure a 3.5 like patch would have been out much earlier.

 

[soopercool101]

Actually they do. I used to enjoy Classic Mode intense in 3.5 as it had balanced stages while fighting the opponents, while now it is who hits who in the moving lava in norfair. The slight skill part despite the items in 3.5 is gone for single-player in 3.6b

Then download some balanced stages off brawlvault, and replace the ones that you dislike. I've always found one of Project M's strong suits for non-tournament play to be its customizability.

 

[ShadowGanon]

Am I the only one who LIKES the change between versions?

 

[qwertz143]

Then download some balanced stages off brawlvault, and replace the ones that you dislike. I've always found one of Project M's strong suits for non-tournament play to be its customizability.

Alright. But that desyncs if I'm playing wifi and someone chooses it

 

[soopercool101]

Alright. But that desyncs if I'm playing wifi and someone chooses it

In that case, the two easiest solutions are:
A) Make sure the person you're facing has the same mods as you do, or
B) Keep two separate builds, one for wifi (that only includes wifi safe mods), and one for single player (with all the balanced stages you want)

 

[Kurri ★]

Am I the only one who LIKES the change between versions?

As someone used to patches, hearing there's a new release with huge changes is like opening a Christmas present.

 

[Bleck]

why spend all these hours on a character

your time is not inherently valuable

 

[IronChar]

oh really? are you sure about that?

time is one of the greatest assets that is available to anyone, who here think that's its NOT valuable, IMO is a foolish way to proceed