A Newcomer to Smash 64 (eh, kinda)

[AmishTechnology]

Hey guys, I'm AmishTechnology. I made an account here when I was in middle school and have lurked every now and then over the years, mostly for Melee metagame/tourney stuff.

My sister and her boyfriend were gracious enough to buy me a PS3 for Christmas. We only have MvC3 for it (which I never play) and mainly use it for Netflix. However, there was one thing I remembered: the PS3 controller uses USB slots.

So, I decided to try out Smash 64 online for the first time again after about 8 years (I tried it once or twice as a kid with a keyboard, only to be frustrated by the controls - I'm mainly talking about double jumping on U-Airs here). And boy, it was a blast. I've been playing for about two-three weeks and it's been a mixed experience. I come from Melee, so there's often something new I learn every time I face a new player: new gimps, 0-death combos, new spammable moves, and other such painful lessons.

However, what's really grinding my gears the most is my internet connection; you see, I live in Los Angeles, so you'd figure that I'd have a pretty decent-good connection to Galaxy or West Wonderland, right? Well, I just so happen to be forced to use the worst ISP imaginable in my apartment: Consolidated Smart Systems (yelp reviews). The lowest possible ping I can acquire is 125 (8 frames), and it was especially frustrating the first few games I've played. I've actually gotten quite used to it, but I feel quite limited and would like your inputs on some topics (both related and irrelevant to my 8-frame delay...):

- Is it possible to play a "good" Fox with such lag? I'm finding it really difficult to play Fox dittos and pull off certain things like Jump -> Shine -> Cancel. For combos and whatnot, is it just a matter of practice and accustoming myself to lag? It's taken me about a week to get L-Cancels down for the most part (not even 100%) and tech rolling is actually pretty easy.

- I've carried some Melee tendencies, and I feel like they're just not working. One thing I like to do a lot is drill -> shine; but this seems really easy to punish, especially with shield grab. Meanwhile, I find it really hard to shield grab myself. Is this lag or shieldstun? On a related note, I also sometimes find that jab -> grab works; am I abusing shieldstun, or am I abusing my opponent's 5+ frame delay? But shine cancel sounds impossible.

- SHDL sounds really useful and I'd like to be able to do it consistently online. Is it?

- I find myself playing defensive and reactive very often. Is that bad for Fox?

- What do I do vs a good Mario or Pikachu? I recall those two giving me the most headaches in my online experience.

- Would P2P help a lot on the lag?

Thanks! ~ AT_Charles

 

[clubbadubba]

1 Is it possible to play a "good" Fox with such lag? I'm finding it really difficult to play Fox dittos and pull off certain things like Jump -> Shine -> Cancel. For combos and whatnot, is it just a matter of practice and accustoming myself to lag? It's taken me about a week to get L-Cancels down for the most part (not even 100%) and tech rolling is actually pretty easy.

2 I've carried some Melee tendencies, and I feel like they're just not working. One thing I like to do a lot is drill -> shine; but this seems really easy to punish, especially with shield grab. Meanwhile, I find it really hard to shield grab myself. Is this lag or shieldstun? On a related note, I also sometimes find that jab -> grab works; am I abusing shieldstun, or am I abusing my opponent's 5+ frame delay? But shine cancel sounds impossible.

3 SHDL sounds really useful and I'd like to be able to do it consistently online. Is it?

4 I find myself playing defensive and reactive very often. Is that bad for Fox?

5 What do I do vs a good Mario or Pikachu? I recall those two giving me the most
headaches in my online experience.

6 Would P2P help a lot on the lag?

Thanks! ~ AT_Charles

Welcome to the community, hope you stay for a while!

1) Unfortunately fox is one of the hardest, if not the hardest character to play with a bad connection. No other way around it. Samus is probably the easiest on 8 frames.

2) Drill -> shine is not the best (unless you have a planned follow-up). After a drill you could utilt or dtilt. Maybe a quick uair. At higher percentages if you drill -> jab -> anything is an option (usmash for a quick kill).

3) SHDL is very useful. You should learn to do it online if you can. I personally have a lot of trouble doing it online compared to console, but good luck.

4) Whatever style works for you man. Interesting that you play defensive fox without SHDL. It's kind of the cobblestone of defensive fox play. Should help you a lot to learn it.

5) If you're playing on dreamland don't get grabbed, and make your combos count. But mainly don't get grabbed because that's a stock.

6) Most likely yes. The frames you have depend on how geographically close you are to your opponent.

 

[asianaussie]

Welcome to the forums. First things first: 64 and Melee are different games, so you'll have to drop a few assumptions. Firstly, there is a lot of shieldstun and hence shield pressure (relative to Melee) in this game, and most moves can hit a shield and confirm into a grab. Second, punishment is prioritised a lot more: it's not techchase/predict their DI etc, it's landing a solid hit and confirming into a true combo or gimp, a bit like MvC3. And on the topic of Fox, lasers are more useful than they are in Melee, and the shine isn't quite as useful (though it's still fantastic).

Fox is one of the hardest characters to play in lag (I assume you're talking about frames of input delay rather than actual frame skipping/freezes), so bad luck there :\

Shine cancels are very different and not quite as useful as they are in Melee. It's a very potent tool at a high level, but you should really be concentrating on getting other stuff down pat before learning to abuse the shine. Jab can link to grabs quite easily. It's an easy link at low damage levels (dunno if it's definite) and a true link later on. Jab links to U-Smash as well. I'm actually unsure as to whether jabbing a shield will definitely link to a grab, sorry :|

SHDL is incredibly useful. Incredibly. If you can't manage it yet then a short hop single laser can work somewhat - just time it to come out as you land, so it's as low as if you did a SHDL. Also, if you do want to learn to SHDL, learn to button slide and TIME THE PRESSES, don't mash.

This game can be played defensively by any character. Fox in particular can play a solid defensive game very well by virtue of his laser, shine and incredibly fast-to-come-out moves. It's a good playstyle, but you have to learn to take the momentum when you can as well.

There are a lot of things to say about matchups, but I feel it's best to learn the basics before anything else. Shine works wonders against Mario's fireballs, as do F-Air/B-Air (which can combo Mario himself quite well). You can outcamp him with lasers and most of his moves are beaten by Fox's. Fighting Pikas is just a matter of learning the nuances of both Fox and Pika's moves and how to punish properly. Defensive play is good in these matchups.

P2P should help immensely, cutting frames down to playable levels. I would suggest letting others host if your internet is really that bad, that cuts a bit of the strain off.

 

[Olikus]

P2P would help allot yeah. Not much point in playing in galaxy with 8 frames. (unless you like it ofc) Try to find players who live closer to you geographicly and play them with P2P.

 

[Peek~]

Play umvc3 instead, 20 times funner with the same level of cheapness

- Would P2P help a lot on the lag?

Yes, instead of you playing on galaxy with 5+(frames of delay) vs me(4 frames of delay). We'd p2p and get 2-3 frames of delay both LA <-> Vegas. Also p2p desynchs ALOT less than LAN Galaxy

 

[Battlecow]

What is it with Ness mains and MvC3?

inb4 peek and firo play the same team.

 

[SSBPete]

welcome man

everything that has been said so far should be taken into consideration

i'll reiterate that 8 frames of delay makes getting really good nearly impossible so get better internet or p2p as much as you can. you'll notice the difference immediately.

 

[AmishTechnology]

Thanks for the in-depth answers! I really appreciate them. Got a few more questions:

- How does one typically begin a P2P session? Do you just randomly ask on Galaxy and PM for IP's or is there a more common way to go about it?

- Suppose I drill into an enemy, but he shields and I land in front of him. Is following with the typical jab/utilt/dtilt the best thing I can do to avoid a shield grab? Or maybe I'm supposed to not miss the L-Cancel and grab myself?

- What's my best OoS option? The heavy shield stun + the bad internet makes shield grabbing tough for me sometimes. Jump cancelling -> an aerial seems really tough too, but that might just be my lack of practice + lag. Often, I just find myself rolling or jumping away, even when it seems I should really counter/punish hard.

 

[asianaussie]

Ask for P2P either through an instant messenger (MSN/facebook etc) or ask for it on server using a chatroom etc (though it's a little harder to get P2P than through just chat). It really helps if you can host (port forwarding required).

There's no reason not to simply grab. Throws can't be teched in this game. You could bait a shieldgrab and punish with a delayed SH D-Air or something, but meh.

If for some reason you don't want to shield grab (hell, you can just mash A to shield grab if it's that hard), rolling away/jumping is fine if you can get out and reset the situation to neutral spacing. Don't roll behind opponents. Some people shine cancel OOS, but I think that's gimmicky and not reliable.

 

[Sempiternity]

You should let your preconceptions about shield grabbing from Melee go. Shield grabbing really isn't useful in this game, since the only reason you would pull one off is if your opponent makes a mistake and misses a cancel or spaces really poorly.

This game rewards the attacker on a shield, whereas Melee arguably rewards the shielder.

 

[ballin4life]

aa, shine OOS is super leet

when you're not fox usually jump OOS is the best option. rolls can work but if they know it's coming/react quickly they often can punish rolls

 

[asianaussie]

one time i was on a high after finishing my final exams, and like anyone would i decided to play smash

i got shine oos every single time, it was magnificent

and now i can barely get it half the time, so it objectively sucks

 

[Battlecow]

For p2p just hit up the galaxy and spam the chat, I guess

but since you're WC maybe you should get to know the WC people and p2p with them regularly or something

 

[AmishTechnology]

Thanks for the answers once again.

I've found Kirby to be my biggest pain recently. I'd play a guy and I'd do fairly well against all his characters, even Pika, and then his Kirby effortlessly 4-stocks me. What gives? I find it really tough to compete with his drills, recovery, and U-Tilt combos. It seems like one hit from him auto-combos into 60%, and the really fast smashes don't help either.

 

[asianaussie]

kirby is just much easier to use well than other characters

don't charge in with aerials, fox cannot do that - sit back with lasers and make him come to you, or get in between u-tilts with a grab or something

kirby's recovery is foiled by standing next to the edge and timing a d-smash - going off the edge is dangerous against him, especially if he recovers high

if you have momentum try and abuse it

 

[Battlecow]

Space carefully

don't be too aggressive, even if you're normally a pretty aggressive player

Although I'm the wrong person to be asking for kirby advice, lol

 

[Sempiternity]

yeah you really can't jump blindly into a Kirby-filled fray, because basically every one of his attacks will beat yours

it's all about that careful spacing and playing a little more defensively

KIRBY CAN'T APPROACH WITH U-TILT

well actually, pivot u-tilts are scary :O

now that i think about it, kirby's probably the only character that can approach with a ground attack

 

[Sangoku]

Falcon's usmash? Or anyone's grab? I know these aren't always the best approaches, but they are grounded.

 

[Sephirothxxx]

To answer your question about p2p, yes it is less laggy.

 

[Sempiternity]

Falcon's usmash? Or anyone's grab? I know these aren't always the best approaches, but they are grounded.

hah, forgot about grabs

THEY DON'T COUNT

although Falcon's U-Smash does work pretty well, albeit only because of that insane running speed

 

[AmishTechnology]

So approaching a Kirby is like running into a chainsaw/wood chipper. Alrighty then; I sure did feel that notion a bit!

Speaking of grabs, I often "miss" them, even when the enemy is clearly in front of me. This usually happens when they whiff a certain laggy move or grab or something (I forget), and it really annoys me because I don't often don't dodge enemy grabs myself. I know that Fox has one of the worse grab ranges while DK has an enormous one, but is there something about grab mechanics I should know? It also seems that grab has the highest priority in this game; if I try to counter someone's grab with an F-Smash or my own grab, it seems I'm just helping them out by extending myself to get grabbed by them (like a kara-cancel, only I'm the one doing it for them).

I've been progressing quite a bit on my SHDLs (about 50/50 at this point) and short hop Shines (pretty nifty OoS when I do it successfully, I must say). I guess it it possible on 8 frames!

Once again, thanks for the help and comments!

Edit: How does a Fox gimp/kill at low-percentages effectively? On edges and Dreamland, it seems that a throw -> aerial against me is sufficient to kill me quickly. It's tough for me to shine spike online, and I guess I'm not being creative enough to do 0-death/other gimp variations myself.

 

[asianaussie]

actually, fox's grab range is decent, he just has a ******** blindspot when dashgrabbing (maybe more circumstances too)

you can grab someone out of an attack, but grabs do not insta-win against all attacks - a good majority of moves beat out most grabs, especially from above

repeated d-smashes if at 20-30% or so, or edgehog > normal/jump get up > grab throw off > repeat against most characters (be careful)

 

[Sempiternity]

Fox's grab has a weird hitbox.

He sort of grabs across his body, i.e. from right to left, and while the game is largely 2D, there is a 3D element, and some hit/hurtboxes extend into and out of this 3D plane.

Unfortunately for Fox, he only barely swipes the 2D plane and the hitbox isn't entirely in the plane of play (more towards the right side of his body), meaning other characters can dodge his grabs if their hurtboxes are doing funky things (pre/post attacks, etc.) and moving in and out of the 3D plane (to Fox's left).

Most characters grab directly in front of them, and the entire hitbox is largely in a position to cover most situations where a character's hurtbox may drift out of the 2D plane.

At least this is how I understand it. The mechanics may be a little different, but it's the general principle.

 

[clubbadubba]

one of the easiest ways for fox to gimp is to throw off the stage, dtilt them when they try to recover, then shine them when the dtilt pops them up.

 

[Zack353]

where'd you learn that one from?

 

[clubbadubba]

haha same person you did i bet

 

[M!nt]

Cool guy was making me hot with that **** lol

 

[SSBPete]

Fox's grab has a weird hitbox.

He sort of grabs across his body, i.e. from right to left, and while the game is largely 2D, there is a 3D element, and some hit/hurtboxes extend into and out of this 3D plane.

Unfortunately for Fox, he only barely swipes the 2D plane and the hitbox isn't entirely in the plane of play (more towards the right side of his body), meaning other characters can dodge his grabs if their hurtboxes are doing funky things (pre/post attacks, etc.) and moving in and out of the 3D plane (to Fox's left).

Most characters grab directly in front of them, and the entire hitbox is largely in a position to cover most situations where a character's hurtbox may drift out of the 2D plane.

At least this is how I understand it. The mechanics may be a little different, but it's the general principle.

so essentially hit boxes and hurt boxes are cubes (or prisms, rather)

i had no idea whatsoever

 

[Sempiternity]

Yeah, that's what I gathered.

Same reason DK's taunt and Falcon's random SH aerials dodge lasers.