Official 4BR Tier List V4 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[Deleted member]

Gluttony is such a technical player. He can execute footstool combos in his will and I know some could say Wario ruins his potential, but I disagree. If he played Wario back in Brawl, I am sure he is used to using Wario. If Gluttony was out there more and I guess you could say using a better character, he wold be top twenty. I like this Gluttony talk, lets keep it up. Gluttony could have played Wario for years all we know. Gluttony is one with Wario. Hopefully he boosts his results to make Wario rise out of the lower middle tier.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

*Don’t mind me, just a little rant.*

Great players, but this is what’s bothering me about cloud right now:

• Linear gameplay- all of your best moves are aerials, your ground game is mediocre, and down b is amazing for pressure, so the best course of action is obvious
• Effectiveness- a simple, cookie cutter gameplay that works like a charm.
• Mix-ups- you can’t really see any change in gameplay, most of his mix-ups will be timing-based, because he’ll be in the air, using the same 5 aerials over and over to do the job.
• He’s just so simple and effective, to the point where his mains don’t really differ all too much in playstyle.

These traits have been known since his arrival, but I was sure some level of sophistication or nuance would develop. Either I’m just not seeing it or it’s simply not there.


Help, if you can point to a creative cloud player, I’ll be in much gratitude. Other than that, cloud is pretty annoying to watch atm.

 

[Nu~]

*Don’t mind me, just a little rant.*

Great players, but this is what’s bothering me about cloud right now:

• Linear gameplay- all of your best moves are aerials, your ground game is mediocre, and down b is amazing for pressure, so the best course of action is obvious
• Effectiveness- a simple, cookie cutter gameplay that works like a charm.
• Mix-ups- you can’t really see any change in gameplay, most of his mix-ups will be timing-based, because he’ll be in the air, using the same 5 aerials over and over to do the job.
• He’s just so simple and effective, to the point where his mains don’t really differ all too much in playstyle.

These traits have been known since his arrival, but I was sure some level of sophistication or nuance would develop. Either I’m just not seeing it or it’s simply not there.


Help, if you can point to a creative cloud player, I’ll be in much gratitude. Other than that, cloud is pretty annoying to watch atm.

I mean salt one implements footstool combos with cloud but...

Yeah, he kinda easy bake tbh lmao. I feel the exact same way about Corrin.

 

[The-Technique]

For what it's worth, MK Leo and Tweek are pretty much one of a kind in terms of using perfect pivots and foxtrots in neutral for micro spacing and forcing whiffs. But at top level Cloud can still drop a stock for making even a single mistake which I imagine is why they switch off Cloud in certain matchups. That's also why I personally don't mind watching that character.

 

[Nu~]

Aight, when everybody’s awake...can we talk about Hakadama’s Lucas!?? I can’t believe I was just introduced to this beauty yesterday.

Like...this dude moves like nothing I’ve ever seen before. Dancing around shield in such a way that you’d think Lucas has no problems approaching whatsoever.

And his advantage state
Good lord, can we get this man to the US.

 

[PK Bash]

Aight, when everybody’s awake...can we talk about Hakadama’s Lucas!?? I can’t believe I was just introduced to this beauty yesterday.

Like...this dude moves like nothing I’ve ever seen before. Dancing around shield in such a way that you’d think Lucas has no problems approaching whatsoever.

And his advantage state
Good lord, can we get this man to the US.

Been singing Hakadama's praises on this thread for a long time - I think he is the best Lucas in Japan. The guy plays a fantastic Lucas and it's a shame that people just don't know about him.
Also, congrats to @Luco for second place at Poi Poundaz with mostly Lucas and some Ness! Amazing showing and a result to be proud of. Please grace this thread with your wonderful posts again ;_;

 

[Rizen]

[Cloud] your ground game is mediocre,

I agree with most of what you said except this part here. I think Cloud might not have the best shield safety but his burst ground game is good. With a quick dash like his dash grab is fairly easy to land and combos into limit charge, DTilt has leg invulnerability for a trample-like effect that's great at breaking zoning and lingers, his jab is freaking frame 4 which is stupid for a sword character even if it is just a gtfo move, DA is frame 9-18 and kills around 120%, frame 6 Utilt, these are all good moves. His smashes and Ftilt aren't as good but have their uses. Cloud's very quick on the ground for a sword character, about on par with Marth but he trades safety for better bursts. Marth's overall ground game is much better of course.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Aight, when everybody’s awake...can we talk about Hakadama’s Lucas!??

I was just introduced to this beauty yesterday.
Like, this dude moves like nothing I’ve ever seen before. Dancing around shield in such a way that you’d think Lucas has no problems approaching whatsoever.

And his advantage state
Good lord, can we get this man to the US.

His punish game has massive potential, he needs to optimize it tho.

And his neutral and disadvantage could use some assistance as well.

I agree with most of what you said except this part here. I think Cloud might not have the best shield safety but his burst ground game is good. With a quick dash like his dash grab is fairly easy to land and combos into limit charge, DTilt has leg invulnerability for a trample-like effect that's great at breaking zoning and lingers, his jab is freaking frame 4 which is stupid for a sword character even if it is just a gtfo move, DA is frame 9-18 and kills around 120%, frame 6 Utilt, these are all good moves. His smashes and Ftilt aren't as good but have their uses. Cloud's very quick on the ground for a sword character, about on par with Marth but he trades safety for better bursts.

That’s still mediocre overall lol

Even with his burst ground game, his gameplay on the ground is limited.

DA punishable on shield easily.
Dtilt unsafe and laggy as heck
Utilt is his only real good tilt
Ftilt is just like his ground game; mediocre.
Jab is good
Fsmash is obvious
Usmash can work as a frame trap in some instances, but mostly punishable.
Dsmash is pretty good, but easily punishable


So he only has like two consistent good moves, whereas the rest are situational. Ftilt could count as a 3rd, but that’s still not the making of a good ground game.

That’s not very versatile or flexible.

 

[The-Technique]

Cloud's jab is not particularly good. Its long FAF means you either mash A and pray your opponent drops shield, or delay your jab 1 and pray that your opponent is too scared to even come out of shield.

 

[Rizen]

His punish game has massive potential, he needs to optimize it tho.

And his neutral and disadvantage could use some assistance as well.


That’s still mediocre overall lol

Even with his burst ground game, his gameplay on the ground is limited.

DA punishable on shield easily.
Dtilt unsafe and laggy as heck
Utilt is his only real good tilt
Ftilt is just like his ground game; mediocre.
Jab is good
Fsmash is obvious
Usmash can work as a frame trap in some instances, but mostly punishable.
Dsmash is pretty good, but easily punishable


So he only has like two consistent good moves, whereas the rest are situational. Ftilt could count as a 3rd, but that’s still not the making of a good ground game.

That’s not very versatile or flexible.

Disadvantage usually isn't included in ground game. Cloud has a simple gameplan but it works fine for a bait and punish style. His mobility helps him keep out of range.

DA: Just because a move shouldn't be used vs shields does not mean it's bad. A frame 9 lingering kill move DA is really good. For reference other kill DAs like Ike's is 15 and Ganon's is 10. DA is good for catching landings and punishing.
Killing burst options are one of the overlooked categories in SSB4. The ability to kill from a dash, and Cloud has a fast dash ranked 10th, is extremely useful. It makes stalling and landing much more dangerous for opponents. The way Cloud holds his sword walls and hits fairly high.

DTilt is one of the better zone breaker and ledge pressure moves. Speaking as a zoning character main, this move is a huge pain to deal with. It travels a good distance with sword length intangible legs which beat a lot of moves and SH options. The low hurtbox dodges while attacking forward in a way that makes DAs like Rosalina's good. It also combos. Watch Leo's use of Dtilt trapping Debuz on the ledge here. It's beating Rosa's options and she has good hitboxes with rings.

I agree Cloud's Ftilt and smashes aren't the best but they serve their purposes.

Cloud has all the essential bait and punish ground options: good dash grab, good gtfo in jab, fast juggler/anti-air Utilt, low attacking zone breaker/ledge catcher Dtilt, walling (non-limit) cross slash, a quick lingering kill burst move in DA and generic smashes with good disjoint for when you need to smash. All of this relies on his mobility to work but that's not a problem at all. Add a full limit and it's even better with the threat of low% kill moves mixed in.

 

[Deleted member]

Cloud is basically Little Mac except he personally prefers the air.
Is anyone going to ignore the Cloud frame 17 Finishing Touch early kill that NINTENDO Galaxy mentioned in one of his posts way back? That could make Cloud a larger threat than before if more players find out about this.
Speaking of Little Mac, his conversations seem dull because all they talk about is his recovery.
People tend to underestimate Little Macs, because people think they can do the same thing to the macs on For Glory. But then you get down tilted to ko punched. Little Mac has potential but I feel like Little Mac will be considered at the low end of the spectrum because of his recovery.

Down Tilt: Great for racking up damage and setting up for it so the KO Punch can KO.
Up Tilt: actually a good way to punish rolling or people above you.
Forward Tilt: Comes out really fast at frame 4. Can be used for a kill but that is about it.
Dash Attack: Comes out at frame 1 and very fast, but extremely punishable.
Forward Smash Attack: since this has super armor like Warlock Punch it can be quite dangerous. It also is the fastest smash attack, and shielding is not a good option for this.
Down Smash Attack: Has super armor and can be used for edge guarding if they attempt to reach the ledge.
Up Smash: Shielding is not a good option for this as well, but is also a little bit punishable. This smash attack has no super armor as well.
Jab: The fastest jab in the game by far, comes out at frame one. A good out of shield option or a way to rack up damage.

If you want my Source, click the Little Mac Icon. It is a Smash wiki description about him.

 

[Deleted member]

Up Smash: Shielding is not a good option for this as well, but is also a little bit punishable. This smash attack has no super armor as well.

Are you sure about that, honey? I, a 56-year-old non-competitive female Smasher, study frame data religiously and if I am not mistaken, his up-smash does have launch resistance just like his other smashes. It only lasts four frames here.

Sayonara

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

Aight, when everybody’s awake...can we talk about Hakadama’s Lucas!?? I can’t believe I was just introduced to this beauty yesterday.

Like...this dude moves like nothing I’ve ever seen before. Dancing around shield in such a way that you’d think Lucas has no problems approaching whatsoever.

And his advantage state
Good lord, can we get this man to the US.

Yeah Haka's movement is really fun to watch.
Hakadama streams every now and then so it's a good resource to watch to learn his movement habits when he is not at tourney.

Edit 1: I'll watch that vod and come back here to comment on it.

Edit 2: I did not see the usual fancy stuff from Haka, but he did do a few things: the nair stage spike, the magnet stall offstage so he could bair onto stage, and that nair fast fall he did offstage.

Other than that, to me what I saw was regular Lucas play.

I'll link a few vods of him doing crazy stuff.

Edit 3: The vod you linked from Haka was a good set, I forgot that watching a lot of Taiheita and then switching to Haka's Lucas is like a breath of fresh air.

Here's 2 vods

Timestamps for the first vod: 25:50, 26:39, 27:30, 27:40, 28:50, 30:00

 

[Frihetsanka]

Let's not forget that Cloud's f-tilt kills at high %, and it's faster than Lucina's f-smash and with less endlag (although it doesn't kill quite as early as her f-smash). I don't think it's a bad move.

Cloud is basically Little Mac except he personally prefers the air.

Cloud is much, much better on the ground compared to how Little Mac is in the air. Little Mac's air game is terrible.

Little Mac has potential but I feel like Little Mac will be considered at the low end of the spectrum because of his recovery.

Little Mac struggles to punish shields unless he can get a shield poke or a shield break (or a grab, but, as far as I know, they don't lead to much). His recovery is exploitable and his landing options very linear (mostly either trying to airdodge/fast-fall or counter, which are all risky). This leads to him having some very bad MUs. You don't want several -2 MUs against top tiers (potentially even some -3s).

It should be noted that Little Mac is a whole lot better against people who don't know the MU.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Disadvantage usually isn't included in ground game. Cloud has a simple gameplan but it works fine for a bait and punish style. His mobility helps him keep out of range.

DA: Just because a move shouldn't be used vs shields does not mean it's bad. A frame 9 lingering kill move DA is really good. For reference other kill DAs like Ike's is 15 and Ganon's is 10. DA is good for catching landings and punishing.
Killing burst options are one of the overlooked categories in SSB4. The ability to kill from a dash, and Cloud has a fast dash ranked 10th, is extremely useful. It makes stalling and landing much more dangerous for opponents. The way Cloud holds his sword walls and hits fairly high.

DTilt is one of the better zone breaker and ledge pressure moves. Speaking as a zoning character main, this move is a huge pain to deal with. It travels a good distance with sword length intangible legs which beat a lot of moves and SH options. The low hurtbox dodges while attacking forward in a way that makes DAs like Rosalina's good. It also combos. Watch Leo's use of Dtilt trapping Debuz on the ledge here. It's beating Rosa's options and she has good hitboxes with rings.

I agree Cloud's Ftilt and smashes aren't the best but they serve their purposes.

Cloud has all the essential bait and punish ground options: good dash grab, good gtfo in jab, fast juggler/anti-air Utilt, low attacking zone breaker/ledge catcher Dtilt, walling (non-limit) cross slash, a quick lingering kill burst move in DA and generic smashes with good disjoint for when you need to smash. All of this relies on his mobility to work but that's not a problem at all. Add a full limit and it's even better with the threat of low% kill moves mixed in.

Wasn’t talking about cloud when talking about neutral disadvantage and advantage.

Never said DA was bad; said it was situational, which is absolutely facts. Powerful DA, but one that has a potent check on it. Same with Dtilt, another situational move.

Both moves depends on hard reads.

Ftilt doesn’t have a potent use until higher %. Otherwise, it’s just a poking tool.

Utilt is good, no arguments.

Jab is good, also no arguments.

When did we establish a good dash grab with cloud? Explain that.

And moves just “serving their purposes” doesn’t sound very convincing of a good ground game. Listing,”generic smashes with good disjoint for when you need to smash,” as a trait is reaching pretty far to make a sound argument.

Cross slash isn’t in this discussion, and it should be kept out.

Cloud’s ground game is still pretty mediocre.It’s not bad, but not exceptional or even great. When only one of your moves is safe on shield, you can’t really stay grounded as cloud for long unless you have a read. Playing safe means staying in the air. A lot.

 

[Frihetsanka]

So Soulimar has posted a new Olimar MU chart. https://twitter.com/Soulimar/status/950516684359573504

That's... a bit more pessimistic than I expected. Is Soulimar being overtly pessimistic, or is Olimar's MU chart really that bad? If that is the case, then I could see Olimar falling a few spots (he's currently #21). Then again, those below him also have kind of "not-great" MU charts, to put it mildly. He's still high-mid tier at worst, though (which is what C-tier arguably is, anyway).

 

[Nathan Richardson]

So Soulimar has posted a new Olimar MU chart. https://twitter.com/Soulimar/status/950516684359573504

That's... a bit more pessimistic than I expected. Is Soulimar being overtly pessimistic, or is Olimar's MU chart really that bad? If that is the case, then I could see Olimar falling a few spots (he's currently #21). Then again, those below him also have kind of "not-great" MU charts, to put it mildly. He's still high-mid tier at worst, though (which is what C-tier arguably is, anyway).

I don't know about his zard placement mu tbh. I don't think olimar easily wins that one. Then again I run into Olimars so rarely that my knowledge of how he stacks up against zard is extremely limited. Someone care to explain?

 

[Skeeter Mania]

So Soulimar has posted a new Olimar MU chart. https://twitter.com/Soulimar/status/950516684359573504

That's... a bit more pessimistic than I expected. Is Soulimar being overtly pessimistic, or is Olimar's MU chart really that bad? If that is the case, then I could see Olimar falling a few spots (he's currently #21). Then again, those below him also have kind of "not-great" MU charts, to put it mildly. He's still high-mid tier at worst, though (which is what C-tier arguably is, anyway).

Don't really know myself, but why does Olimar struggle so much against Fox?

 

[MercuryPenny]

how is that a pessimistic matchup chart? like half the cast is advantage, another large chunk is (volatile) even and he only has a handful of disadvantages. seems right about where a high-tier would be.

 

[Snorley]

Fox is harder for him because of his superior shield pressure. And also because Waft is one of the best possible punishes on Bayo's landing lag. She doesn't actually do that well against Wario. Many players just have a tendency to assume top tiers beat low tiers by default because they're better characters. That... isn't how matchups work though. Have to compare the tools they have and how those tools interact with each other. Wario's got tools for every situation Bayo can create.

bayo is definitely harder, that's not debatable

 

[Snorley]

Fox is harder for him because of his superior shield pressure. And also because Waft is one of the best possible punishes on Bayo's landing lag. She doesn't actually do that well against Wario. Many players just have a tendency to assume top tiers beat low tiers by default because they're better characters. That... isn't how matchups work though. Have to compare the tools they have and how those tools interact with each other. Wario's got tools for every situation Bayo can create.

everything about this paragraph is wrong, i mean this in the most non offensive way possible lmao

 

[|RK|]

Don't really know myself, but why does Olimar struggle so much against Fox?

Olimar's disadvantage is trash and Fox's advantage is godlike sums up a good bit of it.

Add in Fox's neutral competing with Olimar's very well (Olimar is pretty slow, never forget), and you more or less have a recipe for a solid disaster. Oli does nothing to Fox that other characters can't - unless you count the Stickmin kill confirms that neuter his range against one of the best zone breakers in the game.

It's not great. But that's what I've gleaned from others; hopefully a real Oli can chime in.

 

[Snorley]

Right, but when I watch John Numbers play, I don't sit around thinking "Man, WFT is actually pretty good!" or "This looks like a surprisingly fair matchup." I see a really good player struggling to pull a rabbit out of his hat moment after moment, and succeed through cleverness in spite of obvious constraints.

This is also how watching a good Palutena feels, or a good Bowser Jr, ect.

But that's not how I feel watching Gluttony. It doesn't feel like he is outplaying his grand finals opponents 90% of the time. It reminds me more of watching ESAM, just with a slightly lower character and a slightly lower player.


I don't think Wario is a particularly good character. I would bet money that Griffith's Fox would win at least 6 out of 11 games in a rematch, and then someone like Larry would do way better still.

But this performance vs. a skilled Bayo was pretty convincing--convincing enough for Griffith to switch off of Bayo! We can't just say "oh, that's just Gluttony lol" and just reaffirm to ourselves how terrible the matchup is.

ever thought that gluto is simply worse at fox matchup than he is at the bayo one

 

[Bigbomb2]

MU charts are also subjective and not set in stone. This is hardly pessmistic as well. In this, Olimar shuts down 12 characters and is a problem for 10 more. Pretty good honestly for where he's at.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

Back to the Hakadama set, I think his opponent's Bowser could use some work. He never teched d-air and the last kill confirm that Haka got with the fastfall n-air to re-grab, into death is something that Lucas mains have done before. Nova has even done it to a Shiek before some months ago and the commentators popped off.

That Bowser was just a curbstomp for Hakadama. He has about 10 replays on SHI-G, the rest of his matches are on the youtube channel "cyclops athlete gaming"; I think that is his main local. You'll have to dig through the 3 hours stream vods to find his matches there since they do not upload a lot of matches individually.

 

[Onua]

Reflex is very inactive at the moment, if not retired. Here are other most notable Warios:
Snorley (South Florida)
Waymas (Tampico, Mexico)
Harlonga (Chile)
C4 (NorCal)
Wood (Ohio)
Iota (MD/VA)

There are some other good ones I omitted, but I'd say these are the main ones to look at.

There is also Keis from the Kansas City scene. He's PR'd 4th there and its a solid scene. He gets slept on a lot.

 

[Shaya]

Both moves depends on hard reads.

Reading 'movement' isn't a hard read. Specific movements sure, but that's not so much the case here.
Most forms of movement can be caught by dtilt/dash attack.

Cloud's own fluidity of movement is mostly all he needs for an alright ground game.

He might not have the high reward linking from the ground, but him getting you into the air or to the ledge is significant.

His ground to air transition being so free because he has "On my way I'm going to be doing THIS; if you get hit its your own fault" syndrome (contrast to Marth in Brawl/Melee where catching him jumping was one of the foremost necessary counterplays to defeating him) goes into his ground game in a way Sheik can't really do without a lot more risk - he can take a small frame advantage and jump away with an aerial; Sheik can fair or nair but has to do so significantly closer whilst any trade (i.e. UP SMASH OOS) tends to not be worth; in this situation she generally does an option split of return to mid range/disengage [so she can whiff punish or chase the defensive option], ftilt/walkingordash grab or continue shielding (or dodge); Cloud retreating nair almost covers all those things Sheik has to actually think about; he can up air OTG too which is one of his most disgusting properties.
This means dealing with smart Cloud on the ground means having to respect instant mostly safe aerial options unlike nearly anyone else. You don't really need super strong safe grounded attacks when these transition states aren't nearly vulnerable as they should be, the only thing an opponent can do is move to avoid the pressure, suddenly hard reads just got a lot easier.

This is devil's advocatey btw - but if one's focus is just what ground moves are being used successfully in neutral then you might be discounting the importance of being able to get into the air safely from the ground.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Reading 'movement' isn't a hard read. Specific movements sure, but that's not so much the case here.
Most forms of movement can be caught by dtilt/dash attack.

Cloud's own fluidity of movement is mostly all he needs for an alright ground game.

He might not have the high reward linking from the ground, but him getting you into the air or to the ledge is significant.

His ground to air transition being so free because he has "On my way I'm going to be doing THIS; if you get hit its your own fault" syndrome (contrast to Marth in Brawl/Melee where catching him jumping was one of the foremost necessary counterplays to defeating him) goes into his ground game in a way Sheik can't really do without a lot more risk - he can take a small frame advantage and jump away with an aerial; Sheik can fair or nair but has to do so significantly closer whilst any trade (i.e. UP SMASH OOS) tends to not be worth; in this situation she generally does an option split of return to mid range/disengage [so she can whiff punish or chase the defensive option], ftilt/walkingordash grab or continue shielding (or dodge); Cloud retreating nair almost covers all those things Sheik has to actually think about; he can up air OTG too which is one of his most disgusting properties.
This means dealing with smart Cloud on the ground means having to respect instant mostly safe aerial options unlike nearly anyone else. You don't really need super strong safe grounded attacks when these transition states aren't nearly vulnerable as they should be, the only thing an opponent can do is move to avoid the pressure, suddenly hard reads just got a lot easier.

This is devil's advocatey btw - but if one's focus is just what ground moves are being used successfully in neutral then you might be discounting the importance of being able to get into the air safely from the ground.

You’re actually agreeing me thesis-wise, as I see “alright” as synonymous with “mediocre”; they don’t stand out, like a C grade level.

Also, correct my errors if present, but from what I’m reading, cloud has a good ground game because of the threat of his aerial moves whenever he’s jumping? That his movement specs (frame 4 jumpsquat, etc...) allows him to transition from ground to air seemingly, which also aids to the threat of his aerials?

If anything, if this what you’re meaning, this just goes to show how powerful cloud’s aerials are.

Regardless of how fluid cloud’s ground to air transitions are, if the moves he uses are aerials, then all that tells me is that his ground game just enhances his aerial game by transmitting cloud to his most powerful position in a accessible manner; this doesn’t make cloud’s ground game any better by itself. Cloud still has a mediocre poke, a nice Utilt, a nice jab, a situational Dtilt, situational smashes, and a situational DA. Cloud threatens his opponents with his aerial game, which prolly does make predicting their movements easier, but even with this advantage, all it takes is a shield, which keeps it as a hard read because you’re betting it all on this DA/Dtilt to hit.

 

[Frihetsanka]

how is that a pessimistic matchup chart? like half the cast is advantage, another large chunk is (volatile) even and he only has a handful of disadvantages. seems right about where a high-tier would be.

The only character Olimar wins against in B tier or above is Lucario, the rest he goes even with or loses against. The only C tiers he wins against are Donkey Kong, Mega Man, and Lucas, the rest he goes even with. For a character that some claim has potential to be a top 15 character (some even claim top 10), this MU chart is pretty pessimistic.

Also, -2 against three of the best characters in the game? Yeah... That's pretty pessimistic.

I recreated the MU chart but only with characters C tier or above. This, I believe, shows that, if we are to believe Soulimar's MU chart, Olimar might actually be lower than #21 (unless you believe the characters just below him have even worse MU charts). Let me ask you a question: Do you believe that is a MU chart of a top 20 Smash 4 character?

 

[TDK]

Jesus stop acting like having a -2 matchup or three is the end of the world. This isn't a past smash game, this isn't Melee Peach vs ICs (which was still winnable), and -2 is not that bad in this game, it just means you need to work a little harder. It's -3+ that you actually need to worry about, but most people assume that only Ganon/Puff/Zelda have -3 matchups for some reason, and that -2 is a hard counter when realistically they'e still all very doable, as players like Shuton have shown us.

Now, if Olimar had three -3 matchups, then we'd be questioning it.

 

[Frihetsanka]

You’re actually agreeing me thesis-wise, as I see “alright” as synonymous with “mediocre”; they don’t stand out, like a C grade level

For future reference, mediocre is more like slightly worse than the middle. So it's kind of like "alright" or "decent" or "average", but slightly worse. So when you say something is mediocre, you make it sound like it's a bit worse than "okay" but not bad enough to be "bad". So, like, 5/10 while okay might be 6/10. Anyway, you've explained that you meant "alright" so let's not dwell on i.

Basically, from my understanding of the situation, you made the claim that Cloud's ground game was mediocre, while you meant that it was decent. Then people seemingly disagreed with you and tried to argue that Cloud's ground game is actually decent, which you thought meant they argued that it was good. So really, a lot of the discussion seems to be semantics: Both sides likely agree that Cloud's ground game isn't particularly good but not particularly bad either. It's decent.

That's my understanding of the situation, anyway. It's possible I'm misrepresenting someone's position, in which case, please correct me.

On another note: ANTi made a new MU chart.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

If that MU chart is correct, then Mario is likely worse than Corrin.

Jesus stop acting like having a -2 matchup or three is the end of the world.

Of course it's not, but it is a significant issue for characters who have -2 matchups. Ness would be a much better character if he didn't lose so hard to Rosalina, for instance (though he has several other -2 MUs and a lot of -1 MUs as well, but still). I also agree that -2 MUs are doable, but they're really hard if their opponent knows the MU, and it's often better to go for a secondary in such MUs.

We also need to remember that tier list placements are relative to other characters. I don't think there's much room for Olimar to fall since those behind him also tend to have some troublesome MUs without winning any/many important MUs, although, if that MU chart is correct, there's probably not much room for him to rise either. Still, #21, #22, #23, or something like that isn't bad. It's above average, for sure.

Oh, and let's not forget that it's possible Soulimar is being too pessimistic. Perhaps Olimar has 0 -2 MUs and perhaps some of those -1 MUs are actually even. That would help him quite a bit.

 

[WiFi]

This is a pretty pessimistic chart for Olimar, but since stickmen were just discovered about a month ago as my memory recalls, some of his bad matchups are a little less bad, if stickmen are actually viable. All I see stickmen doing is changing Olimar from an extreme zoner to an extreme grappler. He suffers bad against disjoints though, due to the projectile priority his aerials have. If Olimar didn't have that problem, he would be so much scarier. As for Cloud, people say that he is a spacing character, yes, but he is also a mindgames character. Let me explain.

People are always aware of Limit Charge and how much Charge Cloud has. The main difference between top level and low level Clouds is what I like to call Limit Management, that is, the ability to manage when they Charge Limit and how they use Limit Charge as a tool. People get more nervous as they see Cloud's Limit level, so the Cloud player gets a psychological advantage over the opponent. This can be used during a match to play mindgames, and a lot of top level Cloud players only charge a bit at a time not to show themselves, but their opponent their level of Limit. This puts stress on their opponent and therefore gives the Cloud player an advantage. This mindgame potential makes up for his average ground game, along with having an amazing short hop. This is also the main difference in how top level Cloud's play, on the surface they all play the same, but each has their own habit of where and when to charge Limit. Without this knowledge, Cloud seems shallower than he actually is, and differences in top level Cloud's become more apparent. The level of the Cloud player is 75% fundamentals, as good fundamentals means that you are a good Cloud, but Limit Management makes up the other 25% of his gameplay. It is up to you how you charge your Limit. Whether you prefer to charge manually or through playing the game, Limit Management is an important aspect of being a proficient Cloud Player.

 

[TDK]

PAX Arena at PAX south is this weekend (friday-sunday), it'll be streamed on https://www.twitch.tv/paxarena.

There's 16 players, split into two groups of 8.

Group 1:
Salem
VoiD
Ally
WaDi
ANTi
Samsora
MVD
Chag

Group 2:
Dabuz
Larry Lurr
Marss
Cosmos
Mistake
Captain Zack
Javi
Karna

 

[WiFi]

That looks reasonably stacked. Sheik seems to still have good representation at top level play, but I can also see why she is now A tier.

 

[MERPIS]

Welp, Wadi's pretty dead

 

[Minordeth]

WaDi does fine versus Bayo and has beaten every top Bayo minus Salem. Last time he played Salem he lost, but that was a while ago, and countless matches against Pink Fresh.

He’s also beaten Void before, and is 1-1 with Ally. He also plays the Diddy MU reasonably well, beating Zero, Zinoto, and Anti’s Diddy.

He lost to Samsora at the beginning of 2017 but they haven’t played since.

So really, he could take some names. Depends on how much he has been practicing in the “off-season”.

Side note: I’m bummed Cacogen isn’t there.

 

[The-Technique]

PAX Arena at PAX south is this weekend (friday-sunday), it'll be streamed on https://www.twitch.tv/paxarena.

There's 16 players, split into two groups of 8.

Group 1:
Salem
VoiD
Ally
WaDi
ANTi
Samsora
MVD
Chag

Group 2:
Dabuz
Larry Lurr
Marss
Cosmos
Mistake
Captain Zack
Javi
Karna

Weird to see a tournament like this with neither Zero nor Nairo in it.

And meanwhile...Anti's updated Mario matchup chart.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Mario going even vs Palutena and Link, pretty interesting.

 

[MarioManTAW]

Side note: I’m bummed Cacogen isn’t there.

Why would he be? Not from the area and not nearly high enough ranked to be invited.

 

[Deleted member]

I can not wait for Panda Global rankings to release their top twenty!
I feel like the top tier is divided into four groups into how their overall play style or placement.

: The dominant two. Back then the top two was highly debatable but now I see a lot of top players putting these as their top two and I feel like the majority of the Smash community accepts these as the top two. These two always are the only ones to exceed the score of 500 in @Das Koopa 's chart and their meta is developing the most out of everyone else in the cast.

: These three have a lot of potential if you use them properly but I feel like they do better overall in higher levels of play than lower levels of play because they all have a lot of techniques and require a lot of skill. Especially Diddy Kong and Sonic. I think people underestimate Diddy Kong's fantastic neutral and he is reaching closer and closer to Cloud in @Das Koopa 's character score list. Who knows?

: The "burst" characters. These three have dangerous utility that makes people think of them being placed higher. A lot of people think that they should rise higher in the future, but ZSS already got her "she needs a raise" permission slip. The highest ZSS will ever be is a top six character. Some think Rosa is not top ten, but some think Rosa should be in top three even. I see a lot of people saying Fox should be higher, even in top three. I feel like Fox might rise to top six if he keeps up these consistent results with Larry Lurr. I could see him move to top six or even top five. Either way these characters are solid top tiers in my eyes.

: These guys should be top of high tier instead of top tier in my opinion. I personally think that these guys are still good, but their results can not compete with the top eight. The one that I think should leave top tier the most is Ryu, his match ups are not great for a top tier despite people saying that Ryu has potential. His only good match ups with the top tier are Mario and Fox.

 

[Minordeth]

Why would he be? Not from the area and not nearly high enough ranked to be invited.

Oh, yeah, I’m dumb and was thinking PAX in Seattle.