Official 4BR Tier List V4 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[Rizen]

Top tier in my opinion has about 14 characters. Cloud, Bayo, Sonic, Rosa, Diddy, Mario, Shiek, ZSS, Fox and Mewtwo.

1 Character ha ha ha, 2 characters ha ha ha, 3 characters ha ha ha... 10 characters ha ha ha. Hey, who are the other 4?

Edit: This got uploaded too.

Sees title, skips video. True combos don't need to worry about Mewtwo's airdodge drift, bat within and frame 1 escape moves.

 

[Minordeth]

It’s because of this:



Which felt like you were not really agreeing with it. It was my Interpretation that you weren’t really feeling it. The phrase being put in quotation marks made it look like that anyway.

But nvm I was trippin lol.

It’s all good.

I originally meant to strip down the meaning of fundamentals to something really simple in order to make a clear line of thought.

But I also use quotation marks all the time, and looking at that, yeah, I get why you got that from it. Looks hella passive aggressive, so my bad too.

Not necessarily. WaDi, for example, is putting effort into learning more of Mewtwo's busted options. But just because he hasn't really used them doesn't mean you shouldn't.

Zenyou combos vs Ally/ANTi, so on. It's not that you shouldn't use an option - just that people often don't for any number of reasons.

WaDi almost hit top 10 in the world and he is just now learning how to perfect pivot.

Like, perfect pivot with Mewtwo is gross, so is wave bouncing. If he would just stop using Nair as his crutch approach option, he would be golden.

I still never see Mewtwos go for his stupid amount of relatively safe jab reset set ups.

 

[Deleted member]

I have a question, is Fox going to rise in the next tier list? Dabuz might be onto something when Fox should be higher, but he is not top three. Fox does have dominate results, and pretty good match ups ( they are improving, notably the Kirby, Luigi and Sheik match-up ).
Here is his Fox match-up spread:

Spoiler: Larry Lurr's most recent Fox match-up spread:

My current opinion of Fox's match ups pic.twitter.com/dEZyTpa5ds

— Larry Lurr (@LarryLurr) January 16, 2018

KEN thinks Sonic has a disadvantage ( -2 ) against Bayonetta, no idea why

Spoiler: KEN's Sonic match-up spread

Sonic's MU Chart 11/17/2017
0/0.5まで左右差あります pic.twitter.com/QIOQTgyLYW

— 【SBI】KEN (@KENisbg) November 8, 2017

WaDi is definitely the best Mewtwo - never said otherwise.

Agreed, that man is easily the best Mewtwo offensively.

 

[Krysco]

1 Character ha ha ha, 2 characters ha ha ha, 3 characters ha ha ha... 10 characters ha ha ha. Hey, who are the other 4?

Sees title, skips video. True combos don't need to worry about Mewtwo's airdodge drift, bat within and frame 1 escape moves.

The video actually brings up Bayo's Bat Within when they talk about how Link's uair frame traps air dodges on it's own so long as Link follows the drift...with the exception of Bat Within. I'm also not sure if the frame 1 options would be an issue in a perfect scenario. Pretty sure air dodges are the earliest option you get out of hitstun so if you use a low lag move after air dodge becomes available but before the other options, you can frame trap them regardless of those frame 1 options. And even then there's only Rest Rising Uppercut Dolphin Slash Rush Coil (just Rush, not the intangibility) Pac-Jump Focus Attack and True Shoryuken double jump. There may be some more that I've missed but in a perfect scenario, these either shouldn't matter or only applies to a few characters and they have their own drawbacks. Course, you won't be able to perfectly time a frame trap all the time and so could get hit by things like a frame 3 nair.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

WaDi is definitely the best Mewtwo - never said otherwise.

At what point did he dethrone Abadango?

 

[The-Technique]

At what point did he dethrone Abadango?

abadango is more of a bayo main with a mewtwo secondary at this point, Wadi is currently the solo Mewtwo with the best results

 

[Skeeter Mania]

abadango is more of a bayo main with a mewtwo secondary at this point, Wadi is currently the solo Mewtwo with the best results

That doesn't really answer my question.

 

[FeelMeUp]

bayo doesn't get death frametrapped, but does get low % combo frametrapped harder than any other character in this game
doing it against her is a little different, however, since you need to be meticulous enough to leave 1-2 frame gaps without making a big enough error for her to witch twist or witch time out of whatever you're trying to do.

 

[Krysco]

Follow up regarding my last post since I knew there was a video I had seen that mentioned air dodging coming out before attack, jumps and specials and it was the one Beefy Smash Doods did covering how the Training mode combo counter is broken. Air dodging is able to be done fastest, then aerials and the slowest is jumps and specials but this only applies at higher percents. At low percents, they all can be inputted equally as fast so low percent frame traps are able to be interrupted more easily by frame 1 escape options.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Follow up regarding my last post since I knew there was a video I had seen that mentioned air dodging coming out before attack, jumps and specials and it was the one Beefy Smash Doods did covering how the Training mode combo counter is broken. Air dodging is able to be done fastest, then aerials and the slowest is jumps and specials but this only applies at higher percents. At low percents, they all can be inputted equally as fast so low percent frame traps are able to be interrupted more easily by frame 1 escape options.

adding onto this, there are some combos that will steal your jump but lock you out of airdodge.
i don't know very many examples, truthfully, but one i use frequently as sheik against is fthrow > fair > bf around 10-20% or with slight rage.
the fair bf is technically true but won't show on the combo counter as being such. however, what you'll notice is that trying to jump will make the sequence steal your jump(often with no DJ ring appearing).
if you try and airdodge, nothing happens and you will just get hit.

 

[The-Technique]

That doesn't really answer my question.

i really dont know how to make this simpler to understand but ill try

abadango barely plays mewtwo now

wadi still plays mewtwo

wadi has the best results out of all the mewtwos

wadi is the best mewtwo

if you're asking specifically "when" Wadi dethroned abadango, it's probably around the point where abadango picked up Bayonetta, and Wadi traveling to attend more and more tournaments

 

[MarioManTAW]

That doesn't really answer my question.

First of all, for what it's worth, WaDi is higher than Abadango on the latest PGR. Secondly, with Abadango playing more Bayonetta now, it's hard to justify calling him the best Mewtwo.

This has happened before, where the arguable best player of a character does not main that character and thus it is debatable whether or not they are the best:

Spoiler

: Is Nairo the best Bowser? Based on set wins, probably, but since he mostly uses Zero Suit Samus, his placings mostly come from her.
: Is Tweek the best Bowser Jr.? He has the highest placings of any Bowser Jr. player to date, but he no longer plays the character, no longer has interest in playing the character, and his more recent attempts to use the character have not ended well (see: vs. Locus at ZeRo Saga, Smash 4 Boot Camp Iron Man).
: Is ZeRo the best Captain Falcon? He thought he was. Before Fatality's showings at Civil War and Momocon, it was hard to disagree. Fatality at Momocon was the first player to take a game, a single game, against ZeRo in the Captain Falcon ditto. While now it's clear, that Fatality's the best, at one point ZeRo might have been.
: Is Nairo the best Dr. Mario? His set win on ESAM is not much, but it's better than any other Dr. Mario before or since.
: Is AC the best Falco? His Falco has had some impressive showings, but since he relies so much on his Meta Knight, it's hard to say for sure.
: Is WaDi the best ROB?
: Is Nairo the best Robin?
: Is komorikiri the best Roy?
: Is ESAM the best Samus?
: Is Nairo the best Zelda?
: Is Abadango the best of these characters? If so, how do you justify saying that when AC, Sinji and Glutonny have more recent results? If not, how do you justify saying that when Abadango has had the most overall success of any player of those characters?

I might have missed some, but it's obvious that some characters are hard to say for sure who's the best. In any case, this is closer by far than most other characters on that list (and some not on it, like Donkey Kong).

 

[Skeeter Mania]

First of all, for what it's worth, WaDi is higher than Abadango on the latest PGR. Secondly, with Abadango playing more Bayonetta now, it's hard to justify calling him the best Mewtwo.

This has happened before, where the arguable best player of a character does not main that character and thus it is debatable whether or not they are the best:

Spoiler

: Is Nairo the best Bowser? Based on set wins, probably, but since he mostly uses Zero Suit Samus, his placings mostly come from her.
: Is Tweek the best Bowser Jr.? He has the highest placings of any Bowser Jr. player to date, but he no longer plays the character, no longer has interest in playing the character, and his more recent attempts to use the character have not ended well (see: vs. Locus at ZeRo Saga, Smash 4 Boot Camp Iron Man).
: Is ZeRo the best Captain Falcon? He thought he was. Before Fatality's showings at Civil War and Momocon, it was hard to disagree. Fatality at Momocon was the first player to take a game, a single game, against ZeRo in the Captain Falcon ditto. While now it's clear, that Fatality's the best, at one point ZeRo might have been.
: Is Nairo the best Dr. Mario? His set win on ESAM is not much, but it's better than any other Dr. Mario before or since.
: Is AC the best Falco? His Falco has had some impressive showings, but since he relies so much on his Meta Knight, it's hard to say for sure.
: Is WaDi the best ROB?
: Is Nairo the best Robin?
: Is komorikiri the best Roy?
: Is ESAM the best Samus?
: Is Nairo the best Zelda?
: Is Abadango the best of these characters? If so, how do you justify saying that when AC, Sinji and Glutonny have more recent results? If not, how do you justify saying that when Abadango has had the most overall success of any player of those characters?

I might have missed some, but it's obvious that some characters are hard to say for sure who's the best. In any case, this is closer by far than most other characters on that list (and some not on it, like Donkey Kong).

I asked "when", not "how" or "why". That being said, it's already been answered.

 

[The_Bookworm]

First of all, for what it's worth, WaDi is higher than Abadango on the latest PGR. Secondly, with Abadango playing more Bayonetta now, it's hard to justify calling him the best Mewtwo.

This has happened before, where the arguable best player of a character does not main that character and thus it is debatable whether or not they are the best:

Spoiler

: Is Nairo the best Bowser? Based on set wins, probably, but since he mostly uses Zero Suit Samus, his placings mostly come from her.
: Is Tweek the best Bowser Jr.? He has the highest placings of any Bowser Jr. player to date, but he no longer plays the character, no longer has interest in playing the character, and his more recent attempts to use the character have not ended well (see: vs. Locus at ZeRo Saga, Smash 4 Boot Camp Iron Man).
: Is ZeRo the best Captain Falcon? He thought he was. Before Fatality's showings at Civil War and Momocon, it was hard to disagree. Fatality at Momocon was the first player to take a game, a single game, against ZeRo in the Captain Falcon ditto. While now it's clear, that Fatality's the best, at one point ZeRo might have been.
: Is Nairo the best Dr. Mario? His set win on ESAM is not much, but it's better than any other Dr. Mario before or since.
: Is AC the best Falco? His Falco has had some impressive showings, but since he relies so much on his Meta Knight, it's hard to say for sure.
: Is WaDi the best ROB?
: Is Nairo the best Robin?
: Is komorikiri the best Roy?
: Is ESAM the best Samus?
: Is Nairo the best Zelda?
: Is Abadango the best of these characters? If so, how do you justify saying that when AC, Sinji and Glutonny have more recent results? If not, how do you justify saying that when Abadango has had the most overall success of any player of those characters?

I might have missed some, but it's obvious that some characters are hard to say for sure who's the best. In any case, this is closer by far than most other characters on that list (and some not on it, like Donkey Kong).

The fact that Nairo's upset over ESAM with Dr. Mario is the character's highest peak is kinda sad for the character.
Abadango has been floating (no pun intended) with his characters throughout SSB4 history. He currently co-mains Bayo and Mewtwo, and has MK and Rosalina as secondaries. His results, while still strong, isn't as high as WaDi's peaks throughout the PGR v4, combined with the fact that he uses Bayo now more often, is what made him get dethroned as the best Mewtwo. WaDi has significantly improved as a player as is improving now as we speak.
The fact that Bowser has a very poor defense game for a high tiered character and that his best player uses him as a secondary (yes, I think Nairo is the best Bowser, but he is not the best Zelda, Robin, or Dr. Mario player) and using him less often, I think Bowser is a little overrated.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

The Lucai at Frostbite 2018.

Strike - Pool B2 - https://smash.gg/tournament/frostbite-2018/events/wii-u-singles/brackets/160325/498758
Crits - Pool C2 - https://smash.gg/tournament/frostbite-2018/events/wii-u-singles/brackets/160325/498757
Mekos - Pool C2 - https://smash.gg/tournament/frostbite-2018/events/wii-u-singles/brackets/160325/498757
Spaghooti - Pool D2 - https://smash.gg/tournament/frostbite-2018/events/wii-u-singles/brackets/160325/498742
Pauleke - Pool D3 - https://smash.gg/tournament/frostbite-2018/events/wii-u-singles/brackets/160325/498748
nomaD - Pool C3 - https://smash.gg/tournament/frostbite-2018/events/wii-u-singles/brackets/160325/498740
Trublu - Pool E6 - https://smash.gg/tournament/frostbite-2018/events/wii-u-singles/brackets/160325/498746
Borond - Pool E6 - https://smash.gg/tournament/frostbite-2018/events/wii-u-singles/brackets/160325/498746
Siderus - Pool F6 - https://smash.gg/tournament/frostbite-2018/events/wii-u-singles/brackets/160325/498769
JeBB - Pool G5 - https://smash.gg/tournament/frostbite-2018/events/wii-u-singles/brackets/160325/498763
Cilvanis - Pool G2 - https://smash.gg/tournament/frostbite-2018/events/wii-u-singles/brackets/160325/498761
Ateozc - Pool G7 - https://smash.gg/tournament/frostbite-2018/events/wii-u-singles/brackets/160325/498767
person - Pool F1 - https://smash.gg/tournament/frostbite-2018/events/wii-u-singles/brackets/160325/498741
Divade011 - Pool A3 - https://smash.gg/tournament/frostbite-2018/events/wii-u-singles/brackets/160325/498743
Nova - Pool D2 - https://smash.gg/tournament/frostbite-2018/events/wii-u-singles/brackets/160325/498742

15 in total!

If you know a lucas main attending or are one yourself, including secondaries, feel free to drop a comment and I will update the list.

 

[|RK|]

I haven't seen Jebb's Lucas since time began, tbh

 

[WiFi]

15 Lucas's! Compared to the 100 Clouds, this is nothing. Lol. In all seriousness, from all of the Lucai up there, I can only really see Mekos doing anything amazing. The rest are going to get destroyed by top tier and high tier mains. Oh, wait, Light's in Mekos's bracket? Rip. The Fox Lucas matchup is really weird, but Fox wins. Fox can dance circles around Lucas, and outframes Lucas's attacks hard. 55:45, mostly because Lucas can also do some really nasty combos and frametraps against Fox as well. I also can't see Trublu winning against Cosmos, Cosmos is too good. JeBB's bracket looks slightly less stacked, but it still has Komota, Sinji, and Rayquaza07. It doesn't look too well for the Lucas mains at Frostbite 2018.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

Yeah, JeBB said he wanted to be kept on the list and was suprised that he was even on it.

I hope they all do well, but I think person, Siderus, Crits, Mekos, JeBB, Nova, and Pauleke will make it the farthest.

 

[my_T]

The fact that Bowser has a very poor defense game for a high tiered character and that his best player uses him as a secondary (yes, I think Nairo is the best Bowser, but he is not the best Zelda, Robin, or Dr. Mario player) and using him less often, I think Bowser is a little overrated.

What exactly do you mean with the statement in bold?

and though this is debatable, I'd say Bowsers best main is LordMix. He's beaten top players with this character, he's just not very active

 

[FeelMeUp]

I asked "when", not "how" or "why". That being said, it's already been answered.

stop posting.

Anyway, a lot of Texas was given wacky seeding for Frostbite.
Jumbo, #10 on the Texas PR and #4 on the Houston PR, was seeded to go 0-2.
Light the Lantern, #6 in Texas and #2 on the DFW PR, was seeded to lose to some random named Skittles R2.
Keep an eye out for upsets.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

top posting.

Gee, how constructive.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

Rip Texas seeding.

 

[Minordeth]

stop posting.

Anyway, a lot of Texas was given wacky seeding for Frostbite.
Jumbo, #10 on the Texas PR and #4 on the Houston PR, was seeded to go 0-2.
Light the Lantern, #6 in Texas and #2 on the DFW PR, was seeded to lose to some random named Skittles R2.
Keep an eye out for upsets.

That Skittles may be a Fox/CF main from Southwest Florida, who is also PR’d at #5 for the region. Dunno about Jumbo’s seeding though, he’s pretty good.

 

[WiFi]

Oh, Light the Lantern, I thought you were talking about Light, the Fox on the Pgr Top 50.

What exactly do you mean with the statement in bold?

and though this is debatable, I'd say Bowsers best main is LordMix. He's beaten top players with this character, he's just not very active

LordMix is probably the best Bowser. Zero, when doing his best player for each character video, stated that Nairo agreed with him that LordMix was the best solo Bowser.

 

[Deleted member]

Gee, how constructive.

I love the hypocrisy in that statement.

stop posting.

Anyway, a lot of Texas was given wacky seeding for Frostbite.
Jumbo, #10 on the Texas PR and #4 on the Houston PR, was seeded to go 0-2.
Light the Lantern, #6 in Texas and #2 on the DFW PR, was seeded to lose to some random named Skittles R2.
Keep an eye out for upsets.

Upsets happen all the time these days, like Sinji beating Dabuz or a Link player ( I apologize for forgetting the name ) beating Earth at one point.

Anyone want to talk about MKLeo and Nairo? Those two are facing off at Japan. Nairo described in his stream that the two colliding is going to be very risky. Nairo will go Bowser if MKLeo goes Marth, but they can not see what will happen. So either MKLeo goes ZSS and has to fight a dangerous Marth ( Cloud being easy to combo ), or Nairo goes Bowser against MKLeo's Marth ( but gets combo'd by Cloud due to his large hurtbox ) If Nairo went Bowser on MKLeo's Marth, MKLeo would kind of struggle to fight Bowser. MKLeo even confirmed that Bowser is Marth's worst match-up. Either way, those two are very skilled top players and it would be hype to watch the two collide. Definitely two dangerously aggressive players.

 

[Minordeth]

Apparently it’s a dead horse that got beaten back to life, but just to beat it back to death:

highest placing X =/= best main of X.

At least, not necessarily.

Like, Choco’s never been to the USA (An injustice, imo), but he’s up there around Nairo in terms of his actual skill.

 

[MH-Jin]

Gee, how constructive.

It's still more constructive than anything you post . However if you want something that is a bit more constructive, the point is the content is either shallow, information that you could easily find yourself and ultimately not beneficial for discussion. Either you can improve the quality of your posting and be less hostile or you should stop posting...because honestly this thread might be too much for your level of critical thinking.

Anyways, another thing to note in terms of recent activity with Dr.Mario...b7games took a set off Abadango at Abadango saga (though that could have just been the curse being put into effect).

In terms of frostbite and maybe other tournaments going forward.. Since MkLeo and Zero are both absent.. Do you guys think it's open for a Bayonetta like Mistake to win (especially with his crazy recent run at Genesis 5)?

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Wow, I haven't seen this amount of anger since one of ESAM's tier list posts.
Honestly I think players like Mistake might very well win, but it might be an uphill battle.
Granted I'm not sure who would give players like Mistake a hard time.
Any ideas?

 

[WiFi]

Apparently it’s a dead horse that got beaten back to life, but just to beat it back to death:

highest placing X =/= best main of X.

At least, not necessarily.

Like, Choco’s never been to the USA (An injustice, imo), but he’s up there around Nairo in terms of his actual skill.

Actually, Ken is even more underrated. He got 8th on the Pgr with less traveling than any other top 10 player. He got 5th at Evo 2017, the same position as Nairo. KEN is a hidden monster still. Easily the best Sonic.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

However if you want something that is a bit more constructive, the point is the content is either shallow, information that you could easily find yourself and ultimately not beneficial for discussion. Either you can improve the quality of your posting and be less hostile or you should stop posting...because honestly this thread might be too much for your level of critical thinking.

I'm just here for the heck of it.

 

[The_Bookworm]

What exactly do you mean with the statement in bold?

and though this is debatable, I'd say Bowsers best main is LordMix. He's beaten top players with this character, he's just not very active

The bold was an accident. oops

LordMix is probably the best Bowser. Zero, when doing his best player for each character video, stated that Nairo agreed with him that LordMix was the best solo Bowser.

Wasn't this before Nairo did crazy stuff with Bowser?

Actually, Ken is even more underrated. He got 8th on the Pgr with less traveling than any other top 10 player. He got 5th at Evo 2017, the same position as Nairo. KEN is a hidden monster still. Easily the best Sonic.

KEN is established as the best Sonic even before his performance at EVO 2017. His performance in between (especially his MKLeo Saga run) solidified himself as a top 10 player and the current best player in Japan.

15 Lucas's! Compared to the 100 Clouds, this is nothing. Lol. In all seriousness, from all of the Lucai up there, I can only really see Mekos doing anything amazing. The rest are going to get destroyed by top tier and high tier mains. Oh, wait, Light's in Mekos's bracket? Rip. The Fox Lucas matchup is really weird, but Fox wins. Fox can dance circles around Lucas, and outframes Lucas's attacks hard. 55:45, mostly because Lucas can also do some really nasty combos and frametraps against Fox as well. I also can't see Trublu winning against Cosmos, Cosmos is too good. JeBB's bracket looks slightly less stacked, but it still has Komota, Sinji, and Rayquaza07. It doesn't look too well for the Lucas mains at Frostbite 2018.

It looks like a golden opportunity for Lucas due to the sheer number entering, but the seeding says otherwise. R.I.P.

In terms of frostbite and maybe other tournaments going forward.. Since MkLeo and Zero are both absent.. Do you guys think it's open for a Bayonetta like Mistake to win (especially with his crazy recent run at Genesis 5)?

At this point, anything can happen at Frostbite. I wonder if Leo and Nairo notices that Frostbite is A-tier rather than Tokaigi's B-tier lol.

 

[|RK|]

Hi everyone. Remember not to insult or be hostile to others. Use the report function if need be.

Yeah, JeBB said he wanted to be kept on the list and was suprised that he was even on it.

I hope they all do well, but I think person, Siderus, Crits, Mekos, JeBB, Nova, and Pauleke will make it the farthest.

I mention that because Jebb is a full-on Bayo main. I doubt we'd see his Lucas at all, but I'll have to ask him if there are any MUs he prefers Lucas for. So far, I haven't seen any.

 

[MH-Jin]

Hi everyone. Remember not to insult or be hostile to others. Use the report function if need be.



I mention that because Jebb is a full-on Bayo main. I doubt we'd see his Lucas at all, but I'll have to ask him if there are any MUs he prefers Lucas for. So far, I haven't seen any.

It's also my bad..I keep forgetting there's an ignore button aa well

 

[MarioManTAW]

In terms of frostbite and maybe other tournaments going forward.. Since MkLeo and Zero are both absent.. Do you guys think it's open for a Bayonetta like Mistake to win (especially with his crazy recent run at Genesis 5)?

To be honest, I think the most likely to win would be either Salem or Dabuz, but it's hard to say for sure.

 

[TheWill44]

Alright, since I correctly predicted the eagles would win by 8 points (and won $240 in betting money,) I’ll predict who will win this event! I predict... Sinji will win!

 

[WiFi]

I actually completely forgot that jeBB is WaDi's older brother.

The bold was an accident. oops

Wasn't this before Nairo did crazy stuff with Bowser?

KEN is established as the best Sonic even before his performance at EVO 2017. His performance in between (especially his MKLeo Saga run) solidified himself as a top 10 player and the current best player in Japan.

It looks like a golden opportunity for Lucas due to the sheer number entering, but the seeding says otherwise. R.I.P.

At this point, anything can happen at Frostbite. I wonder if Leo and Nairo notices that Frostbite is A-tier rather than Tokaigi's B-tier lol.

I still believe that KEN is still underrated. I personally believe he's a top five player. And The video with Zero was made during Nairo's Bowser runs. I think its a case of Zero and Zinoto or Ally and Zenyou here. Lordmix knows the character better, and when I compare his Bowser to Nairo's it seems like a more optimal Bowser, but Nairo has better wins with his Bow-wow.

 

[MarioManTAW]

Talking about Bowsers, is LordMix even the best solo Bowser with the likes of Deluxemenu and Kisha in the running?

 

[Minordeth]

Anyone want to talk about MKLeo and Nairo? Those two are facing off at Japan. Nairo described in his stream that the two colliding is going to be very risky. Nairo will go Bowser if MKLeo goes Marth, but they can not see what will happen. So either MKLeo goes ZSS and has to fight a dangerous Marth ( Cloud being easy to combo ), or Nairo goes Bowser against MKLeo's Marth ( but gets combo'd by Cloud due to his large hurtbox ) If Nairo went Bowser on MKLeo's Marth, MKLeo would kind of struggle to fight Bowser. MKLeo even confirmed that Bowser is Marth's worst match-up. Either way, those two are very skilled top players and it would be hype to watch the two collide. Definitely two dangerously aggressive players.

MKLeo is going to go Meta Knight if Nairo goes Bowser. At least based off of Genesis 5.

But realistically, it looks like he’s been putting in the work for the Marth/ZSS MU.

Leo’s weird.

Speculation warning: He knows when he has a problem, and he used to choose between his three mains based on feel. Now it seems like he labs out problem MUs starting with how they feel at first between the three, and then develops the strategy around whichever feels the best initially.

It doesn’t always make intuitive sense, though. I think Cloud does better than Marth against Bayo, generally, but he has developed a whole Marth-specific strat that works.

Marth doesn’t necessarily have a good time with Bowser, but I don’t think it’s his worst MU. But Leo is apparently developing his MK for grapplers. It makes some intuitive sense, but I’d love to actually have him break down his thought process.

Wow, I haven't seen this amount of anger since one of ESAM's tier list posts.
Honestly I think players like Mistake might very well win, but it might be an uphill battle.
Granted I'm not sure who would give players like Mistake a hard time.
Any ideas?

Frostbite is kind of an open possibility for who could take it. Honestly, beside Dabuz and Salem, I could see some dark horse going in hard as well. Mr. R could finally clutch it. One of the other top Bayos could, like Lima or Mistake.

But it could also be WaDi on a rampage. Cosmos, given his recent adjustments, is also a possibility.

EDIT: Oh, Light is going? Jk, Light is gonna take the whole thing forcing them to rename the tourney to “FILTHBITE”

Actually, Ken is even more underrated. He got 8th on the Pgr with less traveling than any other top 10 player. He got 5th at Evo 2017, the same position as Nairo. KEN is a hidden monster still. Easily the best Sonic.

I excluded KEN because he has started to get recognition, and pretty much every top player has thought he was a top 10 player since last year. He’s a monster.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Talking about Bowsers, is LordMix even the best solo Bowser with the likes of Deluxemenu and Kisha in the running?

He still is. ESAM thinks otherwise, but LordMix still has better cumulative results than the other solo Bowsers, even if he is semi-active currently.

Lordmix knows the character better, and when I compare his Bowser to Nairo's it seems like a more optimal Bowser, but Nairo has better wins with his Bow-wow.

It would be frightening to see Bowser in the dog-lady's house from Link's Awakening. XD

 

[The_Bookworm]

MKLeo is going to go Meta Knight if Nairo goes Bowser. At least based off of Genesis 5.

But realistically, it looks like he’s been putting in the work for the Marth/ZSS MU.

Leo’s weird.

Speculation warning: He knows when he has a problem, and he used to choose between his three mains based on feel. Now it seems like he labs out problem MUs starting with how they feel at first between the three, and then develops the strategy around whichever feels the best initially.

It doesn’t always make intuitive sense, though. I think Cloud does better than Marth against Bayo, generally, but he has developed a whole Marth-specific strat that works.

Marth doesn’t necessarily have a good time with Bowser, but I don’t think it’s his worst MU. But Leo is apparently developing his MK for grapplers. It makes some intuitive sense, but I’d love to actually have him break down his thought process.



Frostbite is kind of an open possibility for who could take it. Honestly, beside Dabuz and Salem, I could see some dark horse going in hard as well. Mr. R could finally clutch it. One of the other top Bayos could, like Lima or Mistake.

But it could also be WaDi on a rampage. Cosmos, given his recent adjustments, is also a possibility.



I excluded KEN because he has started to get recognition, and pretty much every top player has thought he was a top 10 player since last year. He’s a monster.

Correction to Leo's Marth matchup chart: Bowser is one of MKLeo's worst matchup. If he does fight Nairo or one of the Japanese DK mains, we will see if he indeed adjusted to the grapplers given his fight against Konga in Genesis 5.