Official 4BR Tier List V4 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[Minordeth]

You underrate Pikachu.
Mario and Ness a 7:3 for Pikachu?
That is an interesting opinion.
I would say that Mario, Ness, Mewtwo, Rosalina, Sonic, and Peach are all only 45:55. Pikachu in theory was thought to be top five even, because of his good results at the time and his "potential". I do agree that Pikachu does not win the advantage against some 55:45 and should at least be even ( Notably Bayonetta - that is even ). Pikachu probably has the best match up spread out of all high tiers in my opinion, second would be either Corrin or Lucina.

Keep in mind I am responding to a match up chart where Pikachu only clearly loses 2 match ups, and maybe loses two more. Only two of those characters are top tier. Other than Sonic, who ESAM says is even, Pika beats every other top tier in the game.

That’s not just the best match up spread of all the high tiers, that’s up there with best match up spread in the game. I’m being glib with my adjustments and making a point implying ESAM’s chart is optimistic to the point it’s not credible.

I think Pika is a good, viable character. He probably has a weird MU spread because of his tools. But he’s just not up there with the best characters in the game.

Then again, ESAM is ESAM, and he won't care what others say about Pikachu unless it is in support of Pikachu. Anyways, you are, for the most part, correct.

True. And it’s mostly for fun. But Pika mains seem take a lot of cues and info about their character from ESAM. Gotta balance it out.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Pika is good. I’m not seeing any kind of evidence for “Pika only clearly loses two MUs in the game” good.

Agreed.

Mario and Ness at a barely noticeable advantage? They are probably a 6:4 or 7:3. Rosa and Mewtwo are probably at least 6:4. Sonic and Peach adjusted are probably 55:45, and all those 55:45s are probably even. And that’s still super optimistic.

That's not very optimistic. Anyway, let's see what noticable players of those characters are saying, shall we?

Mewtwo: Abadango +1, Deathorse even, KillerJawz even, Leo Heart even, Rich Brown even, WaDi even, Zoan has it as "Wins" (not sure if that's 55:45 or 60:40 though). As a whole, it's likely no worse than 45:55 for Pikachu.

Rosalina: Dabuz: 45:55 or even (ie Pikachu might win), falln even, Rayquaza07 slight disadvantage for Pikachu, Xaltis 40:60 (Pikachu wins). Interesting how you seem to think Pikachu loses this MU but the Rosa players think that Pikachu wins it. If we look at what Pikachu players are saying, Captain L thinks Pika loses while ESAM thinks Pika goes even or loses, while Rideae and Tachyon think Pikachu slightly wins. Whichever the case, 40:60 seems unlikely. What makes you think the MU is so bad for Pikachu?

Ness: The Great Gonzales puts it at "maybe even", NAKAT at 55:45 (Ness advantage), S1 advantage (so 60:40), and taranito 55:45. That's faaar from 65:35 and even further from 70:30. Even 60:40 is a stretch, though you have S1's support at least. And Tachyon, the Pikachu player.

Mario: ANTi thinks it's +1 for Mario, Ron slight advantage, Zenyou heavy advantage, Dark Wizzy advantage (so probably 60:40). So I suppose you have somewhat of a case for 60:40 (although the Pikachus seem to mostly think it's 55:45). Mario does not beat Pikachu +3.

Saying a character is “even or 55:45” is like saying “an already extremely close MU with a barely detectable advantage is even more extremely close.”

55:45 is not "barely detectable advantage", it means soft-counter.

Pikachu is pretty good though, perhaps we'll see the little rodent move up a few spots in the next tier list.

Pikachu probably has the best match up spread out of all high tiers in my opinion, second would be either Corrin or Lucina.

I'd argue that Corrin has a better MU spread than Pikachu. I could see Pikachu being better than characters like Marth, Ryu, and Mario though (potentially). The character is still hard to play and will thus likely see less representation than Marth and Mario for that reason (and those who play Ryu probably really enjoy Ryu's playstyle).

 

[Deleted member]

It's happened before.

What is your source? You can not say that "It's happened before", you need to find a source of this so I actually believe you. If you want m to believe your evidence, please list when it happened so I can believe you.

Keep in mind I am responding to a match up chart where Pikachu only clearly loses 2 match ups, and maybe loses two more. Only two of those characters are top tier. Other than Sonic, who ESAM says is even, Pika beats every other top tier in the game.

That’s not just the best match up spread of all the high tiers, that’s up there with best match up spread in the game. I’m being glib with my adjustments and making a point implying ESAM’s chart is optimistic to the point it’s not credible.

I think Pika is a good, viable character. He probably has a weird MU spread because of his tools. But he’s just not up there with the best characters in the game.



True. And it’s mostly for fun. But Pika mains seem take a lot of cues and info about their character from ESAM. Gotta balance it out.

I actually find this argument satisfying. Pikachu does have the best match-up spread in high tier ( sorry for not adding that ). I did say that I disagreed with the fact that ESAM made Pikachu only have two loosing match-ups. ESAM tends to overrate Pikachu slightly in my eyes, but I do think he has the best-match up spread in the high tier, simply because of having good tools ( as you said ). I personally think he loses only six match-ups, but that is just me.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

You can not say that "It's happened before", you need to find a source of this so I actually believe you. If you want m to believe your evidence, please list when it happened so I can believe you.

All right, if you're so curious:

Smash Con 2015, Shine 2016, and UGC Smash Open.

ESAM also won Smashphidelphia and almost won Dreamhack Montreal over Larry Lurr.

 

[The_Bookworm]

All right, if you're so curious:

Smash Con 2015, Shine 2016, and UGC Smash Open.

ESAM also won Smashphidelphia and almost won Dreamhack Montreal over Larry Lurr.

The Dreamhack performance was impressive. Smashphidelphia is not a major and the other three happened more than a year ago (although Smash Open does have some weight).

Btw, is it just me, or is the new PM Rankings going a little bit under the radar?

 

[Minordeth]

Agreed.

That's not very optimistic. Anyway, let's see what noticable players of those characters are saying, shall we?

Wait, I’m gonna stop this right here.

Alright man.

First, and this is the most important: for how broad and limited the player MU charts are in this game, you put a disproportionate amount of stock into them. It comes up in almost every argument you make, to the point that they substitute addressing content with your own thoughts.

I’ve seen you make good posts with good content. Unless an argument is dealing specifically with MU charts, you are better off arguing from better data.

Second, this whole board has addressed “ESAM opinions” before. I’m apparently not being clear enough that my “adjustment” of ESAM’s MU chart is tongue in cheek, but I’ll over explain it now:

ESAM has always overrated Pikachu, so it makes it hard to take his conclusions seriously. In order to “balance” his perspective of Pika’s MU’s, I suggested “adjusting” his ratios to make it reflect what is “probably” reality.

Phew, that’s a lot of scare quotes.

Anyway, you are replying to me cheekily “adjusting” ESAM’s classically optimistic Pika MU and taking it like I’m arguing in earnest. I do realize that tone is hard to gauge online, but next time just ask for clarification instead of jumping into an argument that I am not seriously making.

And I’ll try to clarify my tone more.

55:45 is not "barely detectable advantage", it means soft-counter.

Lord, no.

I’m not going to get into a full debate on MU ratios because it’s not part of this thread. But 55:45 is nowhere near the realm of “soft-counter.”

Here is a resource on what they have traditionally meant from an actual game designer and theorist:
http://www.sirlin.net/articles/game-balance-and-yomi

Scroll down to “Matchup Charts.”

Pikachu is pretty good though, perhaps we'll see the little rodent move up a few spots in the next tier list.

I'd argue that Corrin has a better MU spread than Pikachu. I could see Pikachu being better than characters like Marth, Ryu, and Mario though (potentially). The character is still hard to play and will thus likely see less representation than Marth and Mario for that reason (and those who play Ryu probably really enjoy Ryu's playstyle).

Unless you did already, I’m still waiting for you to go into why Corrin does better than Marth at the key matchups you mentioned a bit ago.

I was legit interested in that, actually.

 

[Rizen]

RK covered why WTi is the best move so there's no need for me to repeat. One thing I didn't see mentioned is WTi grants invulnerability after being hit with a projectile making it a good approach tool vs spammers. It's the swiss army knife of counters.

 

[The_Bookworm]

RK covered why WTi is the best move so there's no need for me to repeat. One thing I didn't see mentioned is WTi grants invulnerability after being hit with a projectile making it a good approach tool vs spammers. It's the swiss army knife of counters.

The main issue with Witch Time is that it is weak against multi-hit moves and it's effectiveness wears down after each consecutive use. Other than that, it is one of the best moves in the game.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Smashphidelphia is not a major

I'm still counting it because I felt it was a pretty significant enough victory (beating Dabuz in GF).

ESAM has always overrated Pikachu, so it makes it hard to take his conclusions seriously. In order to “balance” his perspective of Pika’s MU’s, I suggested “adjusting” his ratios to make it reflect what is “probably” reality.

Who are you to tell off top players?

 

[Frihetsanka]

I’ve seen you make good posts with good content. Unless an argument is dealing specifically with MU charts, you are better off arguing from better data.

Depends. If I just want to quickly show that a statement is controversial, I can point at MU charts to show how notable players disagree. You just threw some numbers out there, I provided some second opinions that showed that your ideas are a bit controversial.

I’m not going to get into a full debate on MU ratios because it’s not part of this thread. But 55:45 is nowhere near the realm of “soft-counter.”

Perhaps you're right. It's the language SmashWiki uses, though that's hardly the most reliable source, and I haven't really spent much time considering the issue. "Slight disadvantage" is much less controversial than "soft-counter" anyway, and slightly clearer as well.

Here is a resource on what they have traditionally meant from an actual game designer and theorist:
http://www.sirlin.net/articles/game-balance-and-yomi

Scroll down to “Matchup Charts.”

That is one way to look at it. It's not the only way, however. Anyway, this is a red topic, so I'll refrain from going into more detail.

Unless you did already, I’m still waiting for you to go into why Corrin does better than Marth at the key matchups you mentioned a bit ago.

I was legit interested in that, actually.

It's coming, eventually.

I personally think he loses only six match-ups, but that is just me.

I think it's important to keep in mind that some of his potentially losing MUs (like Ness and Mr. Game & Watch) are fairly niche mid-tier characters. Losing to them is not as bad as losing to a top tier or a high tier.

I'm curious; do Pikachu mains in this thread generally believe that Pikachu goes even with Bayonetta?

 

[Minordeth]

Who are you to tell off top players?

Nah.

Me and others on the board already broke this down and explained it to you.

So, either you purposefully didn’t read multiple responses from different posters to you - which is some bad forum etiquette, or you are trolling.

I know you can make good analysis and good posts. But I’m not taking another 10 minutes out of my day to write the same thing to the same dude using the same argument that he didn’t bother to respond to the first time.

 

[The-Technique]

Really? What do you think it should be?

Plus, I may have heard things in advance, but what is it about Mario that makes the MU rough?

4:6, a solid disadvantage. Its bad for Pikachu mainly because the combo extensions that Pikachu can perform on most characters are negated the instant Mario presses the A button, or worst case scenario Pikachu's combo becomes Mario's combo. Plus Pikachu loses most trades, he can't camp as well with Thunder Jolt, he's combo food, and he can't use Quick Attack in neutral as often because of Mario's n-air.

Like I won't deny Pikachu is a good character, but taking Esam's chat at face value Pika might as well be a top 3 character for having a winning matchup vs the current top 3. And really, any character that makes you pull out a secondary is worse than slight disadvantage, no way around it.

 

[Lord Dio]

I'm curious; do Pikachu mains in this thread generally believe that Pikachu goes even with Bayonetta?

^
Been wondering about this as well, what's the logic behind it?

 

[Minordeth]

Depends. If I just want to quickly show that a statement is controversial, I can point at MU charts to show how notable players disagree. You just threw some numbers out there, I provided some second opinions that showed that your ideas are a bit controversial.

The whole point of my response to you was pointing out that my post was poking fun at ESAMs MU chart. My “numbers” come from this joke of a statement: “I just bump his MUs up a difficulty level.”

Additionally, if I was making a serious argument, I don’t really care if “notable player’s MU chart shows a +1!!!!”

I care about why they think that.

Good players =/= good opinions.

I’m putting jokey emoticons on non-serious stuff from now on.

Perhaps you're right. It's the language SmashWiki uses, though that's hardly the most reliable source, and I haven't really spent much time considering the issue. "Slight disadvantage" is much less controversial than "soft-counter" anyway, and slightly clearer as well.

That is one way to look at it. It's not the only way, however. Anyway, this is a red topic, so I'll refrain from going into more detail.

MU ratios ultimately don’t communicate as well as just saying “slight disadvantage, advantage, etc.”


Shameless appeal to myself: I’ve been in and around the FGC since playing money matches with Super Street Fighter 2 in the arcades. The terminology that Sirlin uses is generally consistent with the FGC at large. The Smash community has always been a little weird with traditional FGC concepts.
I remember when the concept of tiers was a debated topic in the Smash community.

It's coming, eventually.

Looking forward to it.

 

[Nu~]

Who are you to tell off top players?

God I miss RadicaI Larry

His trolling actually took some effort

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

God I miss RadicaI Larry

His trolling actually took some effort

Except radical larry ended up being right about link


Thinkaman please save us

 

[Minordeth]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

This is an example of a decent MU chart. Not because I agree with it, but because it, and the thread with it, has some explanation from the player.

I’m not about trying to guess why a player thinks a given thing.

Lima goes through and responds to a ton of questions with arguments that people can actually respond to and think about. He also recognizes that his chart is tentative. As in, some of the MUs could change once “anti-Bayo” strategy starts happening or more players start doing particular things.

He alludes to what Blank does in the Sheik match-up as something that is hard to deal with for Bayo, but is apparently not widespread. That it is not common in the meta gives him justification for the current placings.

His placements of Marcina and Cloud are understandable given his logic coupled with his experience. But he reiterates that he also hasn’t figured out any options that work, yet.

It’s what you should expect from a top player. Not “lol they are dead offstage, so we win.”

Although he kind of does that, too, which is why you evaluate every claim with the strength of the evidence/argument given.

 

[Deleted member]

Call me crazy, but I feel Bayonetta has to have a slight disadvantageous match-up somewhere. I just do not see her comparable to ,, and with match-ups. Smash 4 is a lot more balanced, so surely she would lose a match up. Right? If players actually learned Bayonetta, I think they could find a slight disadvantageous match-up for Bayonetta. The match-up she is probably closest to losing is Sheik. Again, I may be wrong.

Except radical larry ended up being right about link


Thinkaman please save us

@Thinkaman is a legend, we need him in this thread. @Swampasaur is in a different thread, but it would be nice to have him here too! I have Radical Larry's Link match-up chart saved, you want me to show it ( I am just scared the moderators will not approve if I show the match-up chart, because it has no relevance here ).

Nah.

Me and others on the board already broke this down and explained it to you.

So, either you purposefully didn’t read multiple responses from different posters to you - which is some bad forum etiquette, or you are trolling.

I know you can make good analysis and good posts. But I’m not taking another 10 minutes out of my day to write the same thing to the same dude using the same argument that he didn’t bother to respond to the first time.

If Skeeter does that again, then try to just ignore him. There is an ignore button.

 

[MercuryPenny]

smash 4 is not a well balanced game tbh, this is the same game that left two of the the worst characters in the game almost completely unchanged in 16 patches with hundreds of changes each and gave two bad characters inescapable grab kill confirms that do loads of damage to make them "better"

bayonetta having a dominant mu chart wouldn't surprise me, unless a specific strategy ends up being super effective against her (like air camping against brawl ics)

 

[Minordeth]

RK covered why WTi is the best move so there's no need for me to repeat. One thing I didn't see mentioned is WTi grants invulnerability after being hit with a projectile making it a good approach tool vs spammers. It's the swiss army knife of counters.

There is a reason most top level Bayos don’t use WTi that often against projectiles. If a player is straight up spamming, then sure. But good players zone with timing. It would take Witch Timing just two projectiles to drop the slowdown duration to 30 frames. And in the early game, that’s a tough trade, even for Bayo.

It’s probably why Lima hates the neutral against Mewtwo, should the latter Shadowball zone and play evasively.

Call me crazy, but I feel Bayonetta has to have a slight disadvantageous match-up somewhere. I just do not see her comparable to ,, and with match-ups. Smash 4 is a lot more balanced, so surely she would lose a match up. Right? If players actually learned Bayonetta, I think they could find a slight disadvantageous match-up for Bayonetta. The match-up she is probably closest to losing is Sheik. Again, I may be wrong.

Smash 4 could be balanced and Bayo could still have no losing MUs. Balance describes the roster as a whole, not necessarily specific characters.

That said, she could lose to someone. I don’t find it outside the realm of possibility, and at least some top Bayos think she does.

If Skeeter does that again, then try to just ignore him. There is an ignore button.

I’m not into ignoring. I’m into call outs.

bayonetta having a dominant mu chart wouldn't surprise me, unless a specific strategy ends up being super effective against her (like air camping against brawl ics)

I see this sentiment a lot. There isn’t going to be a specific strategy that works against any top tier character. Anything specific is gonna be broad and borderline useless in practice.

Like:

• “You just beat Diddy by abusing his airspeed and avoiding banana! And you can just SDI out of his Upsmash! You’ll never die!”

• “Just beat Sheik by avoiding all of her (1,335) kill set-ups! She struggles to kill!”

• “Just beat Mario by camping him!”

• “Just beat ZSS by reacting to her grab and DI’ing correctly!”

• “Just hit Mewtwo, he’s so light he dies instantly! Lol”

• “You just beat Sonic by pulling all your hair out, traveling to a monastery, meditating for 30 years until you find Nirvana and true peace, come back, pick up your controller, and just play patiently!”

 

[ARGHETH]

Except radical larry ended up being right about link

...are we remembering the same larry? He thought Link was high tier and better than Toon Link, which is definitely still not true.

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

...are we remembering the same larry? He thought Link was high tier and better than Toon Link, which is definitely still not true.

well in those days everyone thought link sucked and his posts were vehemently against that, so he was right in that sense. Anyway link is a joy to play but it does seem that hes being carried by T atm.

 

[TDK]

...are we remembering the same larry? He thought Link was high tier and better than Toon Link, which is definitely still not true.

First one no, second one debatably, but we'll have to wait until Hyrule Saga, I guess.

 

[Rizen]

Except radical larry ended up being right about link


Thinkaman please save us

Why do people keep saying this? Read his posts; they're full of nonsense like Link beats Bayo +2 and Ganon's Usmash combos into its self. He wasn't right about Link except Link not being low tier; I've been saying Link's mid tier since he was patched. Larry just happened to be the most incessant about Link being underrated but for completely unfounded reasons.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

4:6, a solid disadvantage. Its bad for Pikachu mainly because the combo extensions that Pikachu can perform on most characters are negated the instant Mario presses the A button, or worst case scenario Pikachu's combo becomes Mario's combo. Plus Pikachu loses most trades, he can't camp as well with Thunder Jolt, he's combo food, and he can't use Quick Attack in neutral as often because of Mario's n-air.

Most of this can also apply to Luigi, perhaps to an even more severe degree.

 

[MistressRemilia]

RE: Witch Time & Witch Twist

This will be my last post on the matter, as i feel this subject has no real purpose and Shaya has already mentioned that your vision of Witch Time or Witch Twist being the better move kind of is more mindset dependant more than anything, but anyway. Stop thinking people are ********, everyone knows the full extent of Witch Time as a conditioning tool for nearly every form of neutral & advantage pushing commitment there is, simply by being there. But given the nature of the move & the ways they're going to be used by different players, from a practical standpoint, it's never going to be as versatile as it could be theorized to be, unless you're a terrible player that doesn't adapt & let their fear take the better of them. Regardless of these facts, my practical mindset will keep Witch Twist as the most pivotal move in Bayo's arsenal, as it is in the core of every state that Bayonetta goes through, and the move's stronger assets, such as hitbox & startup, only strengthen its versatility & elevate it as the move that it is.

RE: Pikachu

I've never exactly been sold on Pikachu as a character, nor that his matchups could ever be as good as ESAM thinks they are.
The character's rather poor damage output if not optimized well enough, along with the likes of limited range, kind of make Pikachu suspectible to a lot of Top Tiers who do have excellent aerials that will beat Pikachu's in any trading situation. The remedys that Pikachu has aren't exactly stellar and i feel could be adapted to, if only there were more Pikachu mains to train against: Quick Attack Cancel on some stages can be pretty tricky to get past if you're trying to actually confront the damn thing, which isn't really needed if you're in a leading situation. Pikachu isn't exactly stellar at dealing with platform camping, and you could get some mileage out of his rare aerial attempts with shield drop aerials, as Pikachu isn't an overly safe character either. Commonly mentioned is Pikachu's offstage game, which is a strength that is straight up overhyped: Even for as strong as it is, edgeguarding situations remain a gamble against most characters that will, in the best of scenarios, mostly get you a bit of damage. I guess this stems from the older games but i'd have expected people to realize that edgeguarding tools are not as valuable as they were in older smash titles.

 

[Minordeth]

As I was going through various sets, I came across a sleeper Anti-Bayo player: Abadango. More specifically, his Mewtwo. I couldn’t find offstream stuff, so someone correct me if I’m missing a set.

Ever since Aba debuted Bayo in April last year, his record vs top Bayos is 4-2 (not including a win over Lima where he used Mewtwo to take game 5 only).

In terms of games taken, his Mewtwo is 13-6 against top Bayos. Salem has lost to him twice in a row; Zack is even in sets, but behind in games (6-5), and Lima’s lost the only game he played against Aba’s Mewtwo.

 

[Das Koopa]

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/7t5o86/orionrank_2017_top_100_2011/

New OrionRank thread up

Monday will be the conclusion!

 

[RonNewcomb]

Will there be an EVO Japan thread? Smash4 starts pools in about 6 hours (at 4pm Los Angeles time), on https://www.openrec.tv/live/PtX2AiR7NRL

Is anyone in the community doing English commentary, since there isn't official English commentary (at least for beneath top 8)?

Anyone who likes bizarre character picks and rare-as-diamonds match-ups should really watch this one.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

English commentary is only for Top 8, and on Sunday, all the streams will start with Smash 4. So four streams in total.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Will there be an EVO Japan thread? Smash4 starts pools in about 6 hours (at 4pm Los Angeles time), on https://www.openrec.tv/live/PtX2AiR7NRL

Is anyone in the community doing English commentary, since there isn't official English commentary (at least for beneath top 8)?

Anyone who likes bizarre character picks and rare-as-diamonds match-ups should really watch this one.

This will be an interesting tournament. Prepare to see highlight videos of Japanese commentators.
SSB4 Japan is a.k.a., the realm of Greninja, Villager, Lucas, Duck Hunt, and Lucario, and the reason why some characters in the game has region bias. The reason why we will encounter odd matchups and character variety is because Japanese players normally are loyal to their mains (or at least some professionals say so).

Who do you guys think will achieve top 8?

 

[Deleted member]

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/7t5o86/orionrank_2017_top_100_2011/

New OrionRank thread up

Monday will be the conclusion!

I can not wait for Monday!

Spoiler: You get the point.

Surprised to see ESAM that high. ZeRo will probably be #1, unless they count his indefinite hiatus.

A lot of people say that Cloud is even with Pikachu, but some think that Cloud loses against Pikachu. While Cloud punishes Pikachu for his lack of range and light weight, he can easily gimp and combo Cloud. ESAM knows how to upset low level Clouds with his Pikachu. Do you think Pikachu wins the match up against Cloud, goes even or loses it?

 

[The_Bookworm]

I can not wait for Monday!

Spoiler: You get the point.

Surprised to see ESAM that high. ZeRo will probably be #1, unless they count his indefinite hiatus.

A lot of people say that Cloud is even with Pikachu, but some think that Cloud loses against Pikachu. While Cloud punishes Pikachu for his lack of range and light weight, he can easily gimp and combo Cloud. ESAM knows how to upset low level Clouds with his Pikachu. Do you think Pikachu wins the match up against Cloud, goes even or loses it?

Almost everyone can gimp and combo Cloud, but it is hard for Pikachu to approach Cloud (as you said) at take too much advantage of it.
Also, low-level Clouds?

 

[RonNewcomb]

Link's z-air is super long and I think it is a multi-hit like Samus.

It does have a second hit on the veeeery end of it, but your spacing needs to be on point for it to connect.

Can you explain why Link has the best zair? (tether attack). I usually don’t see links use it as much as some other characters (ZSS, lucas, Samus) so why is that?

(I actually think Samus's Zair is better due to the larger hitbox on its tip; much better for maintaining control in neutral against a variety of characters.)

But I can answer your question on why Link uses his Zair less than the other three characters. Lots of little reasons for it.

1) bomb toss is a far superior option which covers the same trajectory

2) single-hit Zair doesn't have much hitstun on it. Hitting someone with high aerial drift, like Mario, won't keep them out, even on-hit. At best it delays the inevitable for measly less-than-my-jab1 damage.

3) at very close range, single-hit Zair is unsafe even on-hit. Link should have naired or whatever instead.

4) at very far ranges, Link's other projectiles fly farther, faster, than the projectiles of ZSS, Samus, Lucas. So where the other 3 chars might hop forward zair, Link has the extra option of backhop transcendant-arrow / angled-boomerang / prepatory-bombpull.

5) Even at ideal Zair range, its hitbox is thin. Characters with fast vertical movement (Greninja, Jump-art Shulk, etc.) are particularly tricky to hit, and again, Link has other options to set up, all of which do better damage.

6) Best use of Link's zair is against jump-happy Fire Emblem characters, including non-Speed non-Jump Shulk. If Link tries tossing a bomb at their f-air, their long sword can not only destroy the bomb safely, but at tipper range it explodes the bomb where it can hit Link. The bomb explosion basically increases their already considerable f-air range, so bomb tossing becomes a danger to Link. But if Link zairs them, FE characters as a whole have poor aerial acceleration, so as long as Link is outside their f-air range when he starts the move, the tiny knockback is enough so the FE character can't simply drift inward after tanking the hit and punishing Link for using it. And once Link has trained the FE character to jump less, Link can use his longer-than-all-swords tethergrab to earn real Soviet damage.


tl;dr It's MU dependent, and actually counter-productive in a few cases.

 

[TDK]

https://smashboards.com/threads/the-evo-japan-discussion-thread.452797/

EVO Japan thread up, event's starting now.

 

[The-Technique]

My goodness, USA got manhandled in this year's EVO Japan. The only visiting player still alive is MK Leo, fighting Choco in winners top 8.

Poor T just barely fell short of top 8, placing 9th after being eliminated by Nietono . Kameme got sick of being called "figured out" and still alive in losers top 8.

 

[Wintermelon43]

And since top 8 was mentioned

Winners:

KEN vs. Abadango

MKLeo (?) vs. Choco

Losers:

Kameme (?) vs Komorikiri (?)

Nietono (?) vs. Shky !!!

We need to get these japanese Zero Suit Samuses to america lol.

 

[Deleted member]

Why do people keep saying this? Read his posts; they're full of nonsense like Link beats Bayo +2 and Ganon's Usmash combos into its self. He wasn't right about Link except Link not being low tier; I've been saying Link's mid tier since he was patched. Larry just happened to be the most incessant about Link being underrated but for completely unfounded reasons.

Ah silly Rizen, valakmtnsmash4 was only joking.

And since top 8 was mentioned

Winners:

KEN vs. Abadango

MKLeo (?) vs. Choco

Losers:

Kameme (?) vs Komorikiri (?)

Nietono (?) vs. Shky !!!

We need to get these japanese Zero Suit Samuses to america lol.

I feel like MKLeo is going to win this ( he is just so good ). If MKLeo does not win this, most likely KEN. My money is on MKLeo, because his Cloud and Marth are just so good. He probably has one of the best aggressive games out of everyone else.

 

[The_Bookworm]

And since top 8 was mentioned

Winners:

KEN vs. Abadango

MKLeo (?) vs. Choco

Losers:

Kameme (?) vs Komorikiri (?)

Nietono (?) vs. Shky !!!

We need to get these japanese Zero Suit Samuses to america lol.

You are right :') We need those japanese Toon Links as well (two of them got 9th in the tournament).
I am glad Kameme made it to top 8, and one other thing: IT IS ALREADY TOP 8?!???
Also, Taiheita didn't enter the tournament? That is not going to look good into Lucas's resume going into 2018 (especially since Gackt got 49th and taranito got 17th).

 

[JustCallMeJon]

You are right :') We need those japanese Toon Links as well (two of them got 9th in the tournament).
I am glad Kameme made it to top 8, and one other thing: IT IS ALREADY TOP 8?!???
Also, Taiheita didn't enter the tournament? That is not going to look good into Lucas's resume going into 2018 (especially since Gackt got 49th and taranito got 17th).

Gackt got 49th is pretty bad though. Taranito got 17th on EVO Japan is pretty good since this tournament is super stacked and has a butt load of upsets. Man, why is this tournament offstream and started at night time in the USA. I woke up and saw top 8 right now, MAN I want to see upsets! They could've stream top 32 in today and stream top 8 tomorrow