Official 4BR Tier List V4 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[Routa]

I would not say that Pit(s) are great at camping, but rather in "taking their time". We have all seen thous Faptain and Samus players that just move around every now and then doing "nothing". The idea is to not engage in combat and wait for opponents reaction to that. Only more mobile characters with great pokes can do this well. They also tend to cover their "walking around" with with relatively fast endlag along with being relatively safe like Fair in Pit(s)' case. I hope you got what I meant. I'm not that great at explaining stuff.

Speaking of camping with Pit(s). He has way too slow air mobility to abuse it in platform camping. What he has are decent set of aerials which he can use to create an area which opponent has to to move around. He can somewhat cover his presence on platforms with Dairs and can poke thous who try to stay on lower platforms with Usmash and aerials. Their main problem is that they struggle at dealing with opponents on the highest platform on some stages even tho thous stages are considered to be rather good for them.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Cyve, the hero from Europe we need and deserve.

cyve has the potential to be the second best player in Europe (after Mr. R), though I think he doesn't get much attention due to the characters he plays (Diddy Kong and Bayonetta). According to SmashWiki, he's been #1 in Germany in Brawl and Smash 4 since 2012, which is impressive and consistent. It's hard to say for sure with Europe though since there aren't many majors and few players travel much.

Speaking of Europe, it might surprise people that Glutonny isn't actually ranked #1 in France, Elaxio is (a Greninja main who placed higher than iStudying in Greninja Saga, 25th).

Marth is A tier? I remember when he was 39th!

He got buffed, although many would argue that he's placed a bit too high and should move down a few spots.

I have been using more; and I have to say his mobility is that of a top tier.
Down tilt to grab or up smash is an amazing start to rack up percents. He also has a really good match up spread ( arguably better than Meta Knight's and Ryu's. ). Even if the voting happened before Greninja's explosive results; he is still a little bit too low.

I'm not convinced he has better MU spread than Ryu, but I do think Greninja has a lot of potential and could be top 20 (maybe even top 15 if people develop his metagame, although there's a lot of competition). #26 on the 4BR tier list seems too low to me.

Also I want to talk about . Nobody really likes to talk about this Mario, because everyone says "lol bad Mario". I am just glad he is rising in the tier list - he was never bottom five in my opinion. he has a good kill move and his back air has low end lag ( I think ). The thing about Doctor Mario is his match ups are terrible, and he does not have great mobility like Mario. Is there even any notable Doctor Mario mains pulling off good results with him? I think B7Games is very important for Doctor Mario right now.

Dr. Mario is a low tier (or possibly low-mid tier) who is similar in many ways to Mario, which makes him very unappealing. Other low/low-mid tiers offer fairly unique playstyles, which might make them more appealing to play. Dr. Mario is basically a modified Mario. I also don't think he's bottom 5, although he's probably somewhere in bottom 10. Perhaps he could be a bit higher, but in any case he'll probably never be relevant at higher levels.

Oh, and his recovery is atrocious.

In this year? Concerning top tiers, I'm predicting that Fox starts competing for top 3.

So... Higher than Diddy Kong and Sheik? Fox seems to mostly go even with top tiers, although he does win against some top/high tiers (potentially Sonic, Diddy Kong, Zero Suit Samus, Mewtwo, Corrin, Marth/Lucina, Pikachu, Greninja, Lucario, Olimar, Captain Falcon, Meta Knight, Peach*), as well as winning against Bowser and Donkey Kong (common counter-pick characters at top level Smash). I still think Diddy Kong and Sheik are probably better, but Fox has a really solid case for top 5, going by MU charts. Going by results I could see him making top 3, though. There seem to be more solid Fox players around than solid Diddy Kong and Sheik players, even if there are plenty of those too. Fox is a really good character, although I don't think he's better than Bayonetta, Cloud, Diddy Kong, or Sheik.

*Some of these characters might be top of high-mid rather than high-tier, but winning against them is still good.

 

[Deleted member]

I actually think the reddit comprehensive match up chart got a little update ( they changed some match ups though they did not change it into the V4 Backroom Tier List format ). I am a little bit upset that they did not fix Pikachu's overpowered match ups. Pikachu has good match ups but not top eight...
Link to the match up spread: https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/6y4nu5/comprehensive_matchup_chart_for_all_characters/

Dr. Mario is a low tier (or possibly low-mid tier) who is similar in many ways to Mario, which makes him very unappealing. Other low/low-mid tiers offer fairly unique playstyles, which might make them more appealing to play. Dr. Mario is basically a modified Mario. I also don't think he's bottom 5, although he's probably somewhere in bottom 10. Perhaps he could be a bit higher, but in any case he'll probably never be relevant at higher levels.

Oh, and his recovery is atrocious.

Doctor Mario may be a "similar but worse Mario" when it comes to playstyle; but he has tools passed on by Mario that makes him not a bottom five character. He will continue to stay in bottom ten ( which I am fine with ), but I do not want him moving into bottom five. Mashing the tornado's buttons ( like how Elegant does with Luigi ) fixes his lack luster recovery albeit it is still terrible.

I'm not convinced he has better MU spread than Ryu, but I do think Greninja has a lot of potential and could be top 20 (maybe even top 15 if people develop his metagame, although there's a lot of competition). #26 on the 4BR tier list seems too low to me.

It is, according to the reddit match up rankings. Greeninja's top tier mobility easily overwhelms at least half of the cast and Greninja has some dangerous tools to justify his reddit ranking placement. I personally think Greninja is a top twenty character; but I do not know what to expect. ZeRo thinks Charizard is one spot higher than Greninja for some reason. Well it is his opinion so I can not get mad.

So... Higher than Diddy Kong and Sheik? Fox seems to mostly go even with top tiers, although he does win against some top/high tiers (potentially Sonic, Diddy Kong, Zero Suit Samus, Mewtwo, Corrin, Marth/Lucina, Pikachu, Greninja, Lucario, Olimar, Captain Falcon, Meta Knight, Peach*), as well as winning against Bowser and Donkey Kong (common counter-pick characters at top level Smash). I still think Diddy Kong and Sheik are probably better, but Fox has a really solid case for top 5, going by MU charts. Going by results I could see him making top 3, though. There seem to be more solid Fox players around than solid Diddy Kong and Sheik players, even if there are plenty of those too. Fox is a really good character, although I don't think he's better than Bayonetta, Cloud, Diddy Kong, or Sheik.

*Some of these characters might be top of high-mid rather than high-tier, but winning against them is still good.

The thing about Fox is he is getting better match ups every day and two people ( Dabuz and ESAM ) think he is top three. Like some other characters; his spot is debatable. Top three are characters who are the top major roles in the meta; and I could maybe see Fox there. Sheik's results have been a little stagnat lately and I could see a drop with Diddy Kong as well. I kind of agree on what you said; I doubt Fox will make it into top three ( unless this character gets results closer to Diddy Kong and Sheik or even higher and people learn how to fix his match up better ). Speaking of match ups; his match up spread is actually slightly improving. We will see in the future.

 

[Hat N' Clogs]

So... Higher than Diddy Kong and Sheik? Fox seems to mostly go even with top tiers, although he does win against some top/high tiers (potentially Sonic, Diddy Kong, Zero Suit Samus, Mewtwo, Corrin, Marth/Lucina, Pikachu, Greninja, Lucario, Olimar, Captain Falcon, Meta Knight, Peach*), as well as winning against Bowser and Donkey Kong (common counter-pick characters at top level Smash). I still think Diddy Kong and Sheik are probably better, but Fox has a really solid case for top 5, going by MU charts. Going by results I could see him making top 3, though. There seem to be more solid Fox players around than solid Diddy Kong and Sheik players, even if there are plenty of those too. Fox is a really good character, although I don't think he's better than Bayonetta, Cloud, Diddy Kong, or Sheik.

*Some of these characters might be top of high-mid rather than high-tier, but winning against them is still good.

I could see it being possible, yeah.
But, I should probably clarify in that it will be hard for Fox to make top 3. I certainly don't think that he'll ever reach Bayo and Cloud potential, and becoming just as good as Diddy or better will be not AS bad but still pretty bad for him. The character that will be easiest for Fox to outplace is Sheik. Fox may have a bad disadvantage state, but he can at least get the job done with having a few great KO moves. Sheik may have *possibly* the best combo game in the roster, but her weak KO options hold her back a lot, not to mention that her light weight gives her even less time to get the job done.

I personally think Fox is top 5 right now in the meta. Top 3 I could see being possible, but not definite. I could see him being seen as about on par with Diddy and outplacing Sheik in the future though.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

not to mention that her light weight gives her even less time to get the job done.

And you're not even gonna apply that to Fox?

 

[Hat N' Clogs]

And you're not even gonna apply that to Fox?

Fox has that issue as well, but he has many more KO moves. So, the light weight for him is still a problem but isn't as bad when it concerns getting KOs while not getting KOed himself in the grand scheme of things. I thought I implied that well enough in my original post, but I guess not.

 

[Frihetsanka]

I actually think the reddit comprehensive match up chart got a little update ( they changed some match ups though they did not change it into the V4 Backroom Tier List format ).

It's still outdated. For instance, they're using Locus' MU chart from January, when he made a new one in April. https://twitter.com/LocusSK/status/849731099467030529

It is, according to the reddit match up rankings.

Which use outdated MU charts and have several other issues. I prefer using MU charts from this one, it's more up to date (although it takes a bit more effort since you have to compare charts one by one): https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/7b0tx4/notable_players_matchup_chart_compilation_v7/

Sheik's results have been a little stagnat lately and I could see a drop with Diddy Kong as well. I kind of agree on what you said; I doubt Fox will make it into top three ( unless this character gets results closer to Diddy Kong and Sheik or even higher and people learn how to fix his match up better ). Speaking of match ups; his match up spread is actually slightly improving. We will see in the future.

Sheik has one of the best MU spreads in the game. She beats Cloud and goes even with most other top tiers, beats all/most high tiers and pretty much the rest of the cast. Does she lose any MUs (Rosalina, perhaps)? She's weaker than Bayonetta and probably Cloud as well, and she's harder to play, and she can struggle to kill at times (which can be frustrating as a player), so her popularity isn't what it might've otherwise been. As for results, VoiD recently got 3rd at Boot Camp (higher than Larry Lurr, ZeRo, and MkLeo) and 5th at Fire Emblem Saga (higher than Larry Lurr and MkLeo).

Sheik is very much a character that has a lot of "potential" in theory. Unlike, say, Shulk, she has the results to back it up too (and Shulk's potential isn't that great, to be honest). I think Sheik will remain in top 4. Maybe Diddy Kong might drop to 5th and Fox take the 4th spot. I don't think it's impossible, Diddy Kong has a few potentially troubling MUs.

ISheik may have *possibly* the best combo game in the roster, but her weak KO options hold her back a lot, not to mention that her light weight gives her even less time to get the job done.

I agree that Sheik is held back by her weak KO options (if she had better KO options she'd be top 2 easily). Still, the question we need to ask is: How does it affect her MUs? If Sheik only loses 1 MU in the game slightly (and even that is questionable), wins against Cloud, potentially wins against some other top tiers, and wins against most high tiers and mid tiers (and low tiers, of course), then that puts her in a very comfortable position in the tier list.

Her results aren't even bad. She's currently 4th on Das Koopa's list. Perhaps she would've been 3rd result-wise if ZeRo weren't doing so well with Diddy Kong. In fact, imagine an alternative universe where ZeRo didn't drop Sheik after the 1.1.5 Sheik nerfs. Assuming ZeRo would still be the #1 player in the world, I think we'd consider Sheik top 3, potentially #2 even.

Though I guess it doesn't make that big of a difference if Sheik is #2, #3, #4, or #5. Top 2-4 or so seem fairly even-ish in power, results, and MU spread anyway.

 

[Lord Dio]

New year new predictions.

What do you all thinks gonna happen this year in smash 4? Here's to another great year of this wild game.

Larry Lurr will manage to beat ZeRo within reasonable time (and not a more or less last minute 2-0 at bootcamp lmao)
Komorikiri makes top 3 more, and even wins stuff with big wins and stuff (this is the dream for me tbh)

 

[TDK]

New year new predictions.

What do you all thinks gonna happen this year in smash 4? Here's to another great year of this wild game.

At least one of Olimar, Peach, or Luigi replaces Mario in top tier.

Wild guess but I truly believe in those three characters and think it's not if, but when they'll be top tier.

 

[Hat N' Clogs]

At least one of Olimar, Peach, or Luigi replaces Mario in top tier.

Wild guess but I truly believe in those three characters and think it's not if, but when they'll be top tier.

I would say Luigi is the most likely of the bunch, since his results have been more and more consistent lately. Even still though, Luigi might not even replace Mario in top tier...Luigi could join his brother, so as long as Mario stays in top tier. As far as Mario staying in top tier though, it's up in the air. I could see him staying put or falling, 50-50 chance.

 

[MercuryPenny]

if anyone were to "replace" mario in the top tier it would be corrin. it would be more likely that the top tier will just shrink imo

 

[Das Koopa]

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/7nh144/orionrank_2017_top_100_announcement_information/

OrionRank announcement stuff

 

[Deleted member]

It's still outdated. For instance, they're using Locus' MU chart from January, when he made a new one in April. https://twitter.com/LocusSK/status/849731099467030529

Which use outdated MU charts and have several other issues. I prefer using MU charts from this one, it's more up to date (although it takes a bit more effort since you have to compare charts one by one): https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/7b0tx4/notable_players_matchup_chart_compilation_v7/

Sheik has one of the best MU spreads in the game. She beats Cloud and goes even with most other top tiers, beats all/most high tiers and pretty much the rest of the cast. Does she lose any MUs (Rosalina, perhaps)? She's weaker than Bayonetta and probably Cloud as well, and she's harder to play, and she can struggle to kill at times (which can be frustrating as a player), so her popularity isn't what it might've otherwise been. As for results, VoiD recently got 3rd at Boot Camp (higher than Larry Lurr, ZeRo, and MkLeo) and 5th at Fire Emblem Saga (higher than Larry Lurr and MkLeo).

Sheik is very much a character that has a lot of "potential" in theory. Unlike, say, Shulk, she has the results to back it up too (and Shulk's potential isn't that great, to be honest). I think Sheik will remain in top 4. Maybe Diddy Kong might drop to 5th and Fox take the 4th spot. I don't think it's impossible, Diddy Kong has a few potentially troubling MUs.

I agree that Sheik is held back by her weak KO options (if she had better KO options she'd be top 2 easily). Still, the question we need to ask is: How does it affect her MUs? If Sheik only loses 1 MU in the game slightly (and even that is questionable), wins against Cloud, potentially wins against some other top tiers, and wins against most high tiers and mid tiers (and low tiers, of course), then that puts her in a very comfortable position in the tier list.

Her results aren't even bad. She's currently 4th on Das Koopa's list. Perhaps she would've been 3rd result-wise if ZeRo weren't doing so well with Diddy Kong. In fact, imagine an alternative universe where ZeRo didn't drop Sheik after the 1.1.5 Sheik nerfs. Assuming ZeRo would still be the #1 player in the world, I think we'd consider Sheik top 3, potentially #2 even.

Though I guess it doesn't make that big of a difference if Sheik is #2, #3, #4, or #5. Top 2-4 or so seem fairly even-ish in power, results, and MU spread anyway.

I have seen that top player match up spread chart V7 site many times; its just easier to use the Reddit match up spread. If Sheik had multiple great KO options and ZeRo never dropped her ( as you said ), guaranteed top two. Maybe even the best ( unlikely ). Sheik in my opinion is in the 3 - 6 range. Having a bad KO option really is a disadvantage when you put in rage into account. Comebacks are very easy due to this and Sheik's light weight. Sheik does have good results. Her results were slowly dropping so that is why she was put to the top of A instead of bottom of S. You are right about her match up spread being one of the best. Sheik is fine where she is for now.

The thing about Fox is he does have good results and mobility; but his match up spread can improve. He is almost countered by Bayonetta and Sheik. I also recall Fox's match up spread is improving; as Hat N' Clogs said. He also has the same problem as Captain Falcon and Cloud; Combo food. That is because of being a tall and faster but exploitable recovery ( I am not saying Fox's recovery is bad ). It would be really weird but funny if Fox stayed in seventh the next tier list. Fox might rise from seventh the first time.

 

[TDK]

https://panda.gg/blogs/smash-bros/pgrv4-area-51

PGR Area 51 is out. All these players are tied for just missing it:

Spoiler

Eon
Javi
Locus
Luhtie
Stroder

 

[Frihetsanka]

At least one of Olimar, Peach, or Luigi replaces Mario in top tier.

Wild guess but I truly believe in those three characters and think it's not if, but when they'll be top tier.

Interesting opinion. So you think Luigi is better than Mario? I've certainly entertained the thought, although I think Luigi has some flaws that keep him from top tier. I think he could be top 15, potentially better than Mario, even. Top tier? I don't see it. None of the Luigi MU charts that I've seen indicate that he's top tier.

I don't see Peach being top tier at all. Does she win against any top tiers at all? She seems to lose to a few, and mostly goes even with high tier (she doesn't seem to win against any high tiers). Oh, and she might lose -2 vs Meta Knight, which is a pretty significant flaws when you have players like MkLeo and Abadango with strong Meta Knights. She also likely loses to some top tiers, like Diddy Kong and Cloud.

Olimar is pretty good, and could be top 15. But he doesn't win against any top tier (as far as I know), and he loses to a few of them. He might be top 15 (although there's a lot of competition for top 15 right now), but top 10? I doubt it.

if anyone were to "replace" mario in the top tier it would be corrin. it would be more likely that the top tier will just shrink imo

I'm inclined to agree, Corrin is probably the closest character to top tier out of those that aren't currently top tier on the 4BR. I don't think she'll be top tier though, not unless people figure out how to solve some of her troubling MUs (Fox, Cloud, Sheik, Diddy Kong). If any (or several) of these MUs turn out to be even, and if it turns out that Corrin does win against Mario and Rosalina, then Corrin might be top tier. There's been some talk of Corrin winning against Bayonetta, although I personally think it's even.

So, yeah. Top tier should probably shrink a bit. Melee had 4, Brawl had 7. 8 or 9 seems good for Smash 4, in my opinion (I prefer 8 right now, given that Mario, Marth, Mewtwo, and Ryu are all arguably high tier rather than top tier).

 

[|RK|]

Luigi currently benefits a lot from MU inexperience, IMO. Elegant is a godlike player, but also very few people play the Luigi MU like ZeRo or Dabuz do. He has more easily-abused attributes than Mario does.

I figure the MUs Luigi seems to do better in has a lot to do with Elegant's sheer knowledge. For the most part, anyways.

That said, I think Luigi could stand to move up much closer to his brother.

 

[Rizen]

Luigi's a xenomorph; the only way to win is to not engage. Fortunately, he's weak to keep away. Mario is the better character. Luigi's combos are crazy but Mario can approach, is rounded and actually has good air speed. Luigi's is the 2nd worst even under Ganon. As Link I'd much rather fight Luigi than Mario.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Luigi's combos are crazy but Mario can approach

Gee, such an anomaly.

 

[Heracr055]

Skeeter Mania, can you please post with more substance or purpose? It's disheartening when your posts consist of one sentence (or 4 words in the above case). To make a relevant post, I thinkk that Luigi does not belong in top (just like his brother). Once people deny him the space and range he wants, he'll lose his upward momentum. This doesn't aim to take away from Elegant's successes

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Skeeter Mania, can you please post with more substance or purpose? It's disheartening when your posts consist of one sentence (or 4 words in the above case).

Gee, not being able to make a sarcastic post is really damaging, isn't it?

Besides, I'm usually the questioning type because I want to find something out. I'm not nearly as knowledgeable as a great many of those who do comment frequently hear (except maybe @ShinyLegendary).

 

[Laken64]

Luigi's a xenomorph; the only way to win is to not engage. Fortunately, he's weak to keep away. Mario is the better character. Luigi's combos are crazy but Mario can approach, is rounded and actually has good air speed. Luigi's is the 2nd worst even under Ganon. As Link I'd much rather fight Luigi than Mario.

While I do agree with keep away being strong against Luigi the thing he has over Mario in mus like is an effective projectile and a actual quick forward poke in his fair. Also note that while Mario has more air mobility most of his approaches involve jumping as his ground game isn't too strong even with his TAC (turn around cancel) and jumping is much more committal. Luigi has a solid ground game and a projectile that commands space and conditions the opponent and his jab is nuts.

This alone makes mus that are considered very hard for Mario () a bit easier for Luigi (they're still hard and grindy mus for Luigi) in the fact that while they can both camp the plumbers out, Luigi has fireball to at least take up space in the sonic mu and in both of Mario's toughest must while Mario has to catch them in neutral multiple times to catch up Luigi only needs one or two wins (just far less wins in neutral) in neutral to take the lead and make them approach him for a change which is where suffer not to mention the fact he can challenge recovery which is just huge in general in the current meta with bayos almost always getting a free pass to recover against a large majority of the cast.

I honestly think isn't too far from and could be stronger than him in the future with the only bar being if you can mash or not.

 

[Deleted member]

Luigi currently benefits a lot from MU inexperience, IMO. Elegant is a godlike player, but also very few people play the Luigi MU like ZeRo or Dabuz do. He has more easily-abused attributes than Mario does.

I figure the MUs Luigi seems to do better in has a lot to do with Elegant's sheer knowledge. For the most part, anyways.

That said, I think Luigi could stand to move up much closer to his brother.

ZeRo thinks Luigi is at the bottom of top tier ( which is interesting ). If I can say one thing about Elegant; his Luigi is deadly. He can use the tornado to gimp recoveries and to send them off to the sky and utilize his combos properly. I feel like Elegant is just as skilled as Gluttony; but he mains a better character. Even match ups that are usually hard for Luigi ( Mewtwo, Rosalina and Mega Man ) he can do properly well. If there is a person to make Luigi rise higher in the tier lists; it is him.

Gee, not being able to make a sarcastic post is really damaging, isn't it?

Besides, I'm usually the questioning type because I want to find something out. I'm not nearly as knowledgeable as a great many of those who do comment frequently hear (except maybe @ShinyLegendary).

Triggered.
In all seriousness; how does this impact the subject we are discussing? Lets talk about the subject that is happening right now ( Elegant with his Luigi and how Elegant impacts the meta with Luigi ).
I guess this post can be applied here.

A wonderful poem made by @Zelder ( Give @Zelder all the credit )
I met a poster from an antique thread
Who said: Two vast and trunkless posts of stone
Stand in the desert. Near them, on the sand,
Half sunk, a shattered html link lies, whose frown,
And wrinkled lip, and sneer of cold command,
Tell that its moderator well those passions read
Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things,
The hand that mocked them and the heart that fed:
And on the pedestal these words appear:
'My name is the CCI Tier List 1.0, king of kings:
Look on my thread, ye Mighty, and despair!'
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare
The lone and level sands stretch far away.

 

[The-Technique]

While I do agree with keep away being strong against Luigi the thing he has over Mario in mus like is an effective projectile and a actual quick forward poke in his fair. Also note that while Mario has more air mobility most of his approaches involve jumping as his ground game isn't too strong even with his TAC (turn around cancel) and jumping is much more committal. Luigi has a solid ground game and a projectile that commands space and conditions the opponent and his jab is nuts.

This alone makes mus that are considered very hard for Mario () a bit easier for Luigi (they're still hard and grindy mus for Luigi) in the fact that while they can both camp the plumbers out, Luigi has fireball to at least take up space in the sonic mu and in both of Mario's toughest must while Mario has to catch them in neutral multiple times to catch up Luigi only needs one or two wins (just far less wins in neutral) in neutral to take the lead and make them approach him for a change which is where suffer not to mention the fact he can challenge recovery which is just huge in general in the current meta with bayos almost always getting a free pass to recover against a large majority of the cast.

I honestly think isn't too far from and could be stronger than him in the future with the only bar being if you can mash or not.

Luigi in general has way better rising aerial options than Mario, which is why camping isn't as effective as you would think versus Luigi, and like you already mentioned Luigi only has to win neutral once or twice to gain a huge percent lead where you're forced to approach him.

I'm not sure if Luigi will rise above Mario but he's definitely going to be very close or next to him even.

 

[ARISTOS]

At least one Peach replaces Mario in top tier.

Wild guess but I truly believe in those three characters and think it's not if, but when they'll be top tier.

Nah fam

 

[|RK|]

Luigi in general has way better rising aerial options than Mario, which is why camping isn't as effective as you would think versus Luigi, and like you already mentioned Luigi only has to win neutral once or twice to gain a huge percent lead where you're forced to approach him.

I'm not sure if Luigi will rise above Mario but he's definitely going to be very close or next to him even.

I really do enjoy Luigi discussion, as it alters the picture of what makes a character good.

The thing is - what makes it difficult to camp a character? An effective projectile, like fireball? Good aerials? Speed?

It kind of changes the answer to "why is Mario so easy to camp out?" A fireball more like his brother's - if you changed nothing else - would probably go a long way.

 

[FamilyTeam]

I discussed this subject with my mates, and I'm actually curious to see what others think:
What are the roles of secondaries/backup characters in the current meta?
Basically, we were joking around about characters top players were using in the past, and we noticed
Dabuz's Olimar, Mr. R's Cloud, ZeRo's Lucina. They all have something in common. They all made a big splash when they were first introduced, we all talked about them, but we don't see them nearly as much nowadays, if at all.
I think it was in 2016 and early 2017 where I used to see this more, but some circles definitely used to say that the meta would grow in such a way where maining one character would be unviable and that maining multiple characters would be the way to go in the future (despite the fact that the best players were always solo-mains). Nowadays, if anything, the opposite has consolidated, as we see most of the best players in the world being character specialists (and the absolute best at their character, too). Only exception is MKLeo and Anti, Leo maining Cloud but having Marth, Corrin and MK as "comfort picks" as I like the call them based on what he said, and Anti basically playing whoever he feels like is best for the situation (Mostly Cloud and Mario)

 

[|RK|]

ZeRo and VoiD were talking about secondaries on stream the other day. Basically, it's incredibly difficult and time-consuming to get a secondary at the top level. You can't just learn the character - you have to learn how to beat the counterplay that everyone knows.

So then that - IMO - probably moves into another thing. These are already the best players of their characters. Not only do they know all of the counterplay, but they know everything about their mains inside and out. I know Dabuz and ZeRo keep recognizing personally that they want to rely more on the strengths of their mains. Mr. R already has a high opinion of Sheik as well.

It's also doesn't hurt that these players aren't necessarily using characters that don't get *hard* countered anyways (with the possible exception of the Rosa/Cloud MU).

 

[Rizen]

Luigi in general has way better rising aerial options than Mario, which is why camping isn't as effective as you would think versus Luigi, and like you already mentioned Luigi only has to win neutral once or twice to gain a huge percent lead where you're forced to approach him.

I'm not sure if Luigi will rise above Mario but he's definitely going to be very close or next to him even.

has a great CQC game, rising aerials and fireballs for sure. But all these only come into play if you engage him in combat. Luigi is very weak to a certain type of character: zoners. All Luigi's amazing cqc options come at the price of having an air speed ranked 57th, 53rd place fall and fast fall speed, 38th run speed and 34th walk speed. All this with the worst traction in the game. Link could be argued to be more mobile than Luigi from his superior walk, traction, ff and air speed, although it's more a matter of comparing lame apples and flat oranges imo. Luigi depends on opponents foolishly trying to come down on him or challenge his burst range.

has pretty good anti-zoning tools. Tomahawking, his RAR Bair can move a good distance and exploit blind spots 45 degrees above that many characters with low attacks have*. He has a fast, low commitment reflector that turns opponents. Good dash grab and anti air Usmash. Mario's doesn't get shield pushed like his brother and that can really help burst/approach games. As long as you respect Luigi, Mario has a much better approach game.

I do see how Luigi is better in certain MUs that don't have good tools to space him or deal with his fireball. Luigi is high tier. All I'm saying is he isn't better than Mario due to some crippling weaknesses that keep him out of top tier. Link mains all seem to agree Mario's a worse MU than Luigi.


*Link's Fair is good because he can SH and cover the air with the first cut then hit low with the 2nd. Hopping over low attacks is a great maneuver. Why Sheik is so hard for Link is she can hop over his low jabs/grab/Dtilt pokes and string Fairs. Characters' abilities to expose blind spots like the 45 degrees diagonally above opponents is an approach tool that is overlooked way too often.

 

[Frihetsanka]

ZeRo thinks Luigi is at the bottom of top tier ( which is interesting ).

ZeRo has some interesting views on what counts as top tier, high tier, mid tier, and low tier. In his latest tier list he had one character in low tier, Jigglypuff. Characters like Ganondorf, Zelda, King Dedede, and Bowser Jr. were mid tiers. Top 40 were high tier. Top tier, for ZeRo, is apparently top 15. Luigi was put into #15, which isn't too unreasonable, but I don't think top 15 should be described as top tier. Also, he put Corrin at 29, what's up with that? Lucas, R.O.B., Robin, and Link (amongst others) are better than Corrin now?

Basically, we were joking around about characters top players were using in the past, and we noticed
Dabuz's Olimar, Mr. R's Cloud, ZeRo's Lucina. They all have something in common. They all made a big splash when they were first introduced, we all talked about them, but we don't see them nearly as much nowadays, if at all.

I will elaborate a bit more in a bit, but I think one of the reasons these characters see less use is that the surprise factor is gone. Olimar and Lucina were "better" at top level before people started learning the MUs (thanks to Shuton and MkLeo, I'd imagine). As for Cloud, Cloud as a secondary at top level means you'll be competing with Cloud mains. Players like ZeRo and Nairo are used to playing against Tweek's Cloud and komorikiri's Cloud and MkLeo's Cloud (and some other Clouds, such as Ned), so it might be tough to use Cloud as a secondary when top players are used to playing against some of the best Clouds in the world. Perhaps this is one of the reasons why Ally stick with Mario: While he might be better off playing a better character in theory, in practice he'd have to go through a learning phase. Let's say Ally switches to Cloud or Diddy Kong, it's quite likely his Cloud/Diddy wouldn't be as good as other top level Clouds/Diddys, at least not in the beginning. Perhaps this is one of the reasons why Abadango's results have gone down after focusing more on Bayonetta: People are used to playing against top level Bayonettas like Salem, Mistake, and Captain Zack. For this reason I think Tweek will generally be better off using Donkey Kong as a secondary over Bayonetta; there are more top level Bayonetta players in the US than there are top level Donkey Kong players. With that being said, if Hikaru and Konga start to top 16 majors more often we might see Tweek's Donkey Kong falling off a bit, unless he's willing to invest a lot of time to keep it up.

Nowadays, if anything, the opposite has consolidated, as we see most of the best players in the world being character specialists (and the absolute best at their character, too). Only exception is MKLeo and Anti, Leo maining Cloud but having Marth, Corrin and MK as "comfort picks" as I like the call them based on what he said, and Anti basically playing whoever he feels like is best for the situation (Mostly Cloud and Mario)

You still see Tweek pull out Donkey Kong from time to time, Abadango pull out Bayonetta/Mewtwo (though he might be considered a "co-main" at this point, and he also uses Meta Knight sometimes), komorikiri pull out Sonic, and so on. Still, if you're maining a top tier there's much less need to have a secondary, and devoting time to use a secondary to get a slight advantage instead of even or slight disadvantage might not be worth it. In many cases, secondaries at top levels seem to mostly be used to surprise the opponent and as a change of pace; Bowser and Donkey Kong are often used this way. They may not actually win against any top tiers, but you have to play differently against them.

In theory, the best secondaries are top level characters. In practice, however, top level secondaries at top level play means you'll be playing a worse version of a common character against players who know the MU. Having a niche character as a secondary might actually be useful, since people might not know the MU. We've seen this with Captain Zack's Wii Fit Trainer. Of course, eventually people will learn the MU and lower tier characters tend to be less versatile than higher tier characters, so that approach isn't perfect either. It seems quite likely that, in general, being a character specialist might be better than focusing on multiple characters.

 

[Lukingordex]

I don't play Yoshi and don't know his MUs :/ The accumulative chart takes top players' spreads into account, including the opponent's perspective so I trust it more than looking only at Yoshi players' charts.

Like I said, Yoshi and Link are counterparts, having what the other lacks.
Yoshi has MUCH better mobility and frame data. He's held back by a cripplingly bad grab game and poor reach but not as bad as Wario's. IMO Yoshi has some pretty respectable stats otherwise. Frame 3 jab and Nair (Link's are both f7), a versatile projectile for zoning although not particularly threatening, good run and walk speed, best non-limit air speed, eggs really help his recovery not be c*** this time around and the same weight as Link at 104. I really don't see why people place him lower than middle mid tier.

Yoshi's biggest problem is how almost every good character in this game has some easy way to net kills while he has to make a hard read somehow. The Greninja MU for example looks pretty even until both are at kill % where greninja can now kill you at 120% with rage Upthrow and you're very unlikely to land any kill move other than a random Nair at 170% or something as long a he plays his neutral right.
Almost all of Yoshi's Top Tier MUs are negative with the 2 most important MUs in the game (Bayonetta and Cloud) being generally agreed to be pretty bad.

The reason Yoshi does so well at low and mid level stuff but struggles so much at higher levels is probably because he benefits a lot from human error and poor matchup knowledge. Those are some examples of common errors in low and mid level play that benefits Yoshi:

- Use a laggy move on his shield and you're eating 32% or losing your stock to a Down B;
- Use too much air dodges and you will eat a lot of % from aerials and landing punishes;
- Jump too much and you're putting yourself in the exactly position he wants you to be: above him

High level players are way less prone to commiting those kind of mistakes thus making Yoshi a much smaller threat.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

Re: Luigi.

Lucas, Ness, Fox, and Mii Gunner with the Echo Reflector special move, can eliminate Luigi's fireball game if they jump cancel their their "reflectors" when the projectile hits it. They can even use to this to slowly close the gap on Luigi, or quickly if Luigi decides to still use fireballs while the other characters use short hop and fastfalls out of their cancels.

Due to Luigi's traction stat, Shulk in Monado Buster Art can push Luigi far away from him if he decides to shield Shulk's attacks. An easy example is Shulk's bair vs Luigi's shield.

 

[MarioManTAW]

Re: Luigi.

Lucas, Ness, Fox, and Mii Gunner with the Echo Reflector special move, can eliminate Luigi's fireball game if they jump cancel their their "reflectors" when the projectile hits it. They can even use to this to slowly close the gap on Luigi, or quickly if Luigi decides to still use fireballs while the other characters use short hop and fastfalls out of their cancels.

What game are you playing that any of those moves can be jump cancelled?

 

[Phan7om]

What game are you playing that any of those moves can be jump cancelled?

Smash 4

You can jump cancel those moves if the projectile hits them.

 

[Game7a1]

Re: Luigi.

Lucas, Ness, Fox, and Mii Gunner with the Echo Reflector special move, can eliminate Luigi's fireball game if they jump cancel their their "reflectors" when the projectile hits it. They can even use to this to slowly close the gap on Luigi, or quickly if Luigi decides to still use fireballs while the other characters use short hop and fastfalls out of their cancels.

I don't think Ness and Lucas can jump cancel after reflecting a projectile. Maybe you were thinking after they absorb a projectile? I know Fox and Mii Gunner can, but I think they're the only two who can with reflector.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Probably meant after absorbing which they can do, Ness and Lucas can cancel their magnet after absorbing a projectile with a jump or roll (and JC up smash). They can reflect it with their Fsmash but that's not really useful but hey options.

Honestly tho Luigi's fireballs lack alot of hitstun at lower percentages you can take the hit and punish the attempted dash grab with a fast move. Given he has to stop to throw his fireball and doesn't move super fast, power shielding and reacting is effective at halting him from using them as a approach option to get dash grabs. This is all of course determined based off how far away from Luigi you are when he throws the fireball.

 

[Locke 06]

Luigi and Olimar both have weaknesses that are mitigated by player skill. A Luigi who cannot powershield will get walled out, but a Luigi who can, will punish you for taking advantage of his traction weakness. Olimar can struggle to land and his aerials lose in trades due to priority, but he can super-armor a hitbox and punish with a smash attack.

There are ways around powershield/whistle, but these options are strong and have been shown to be viable as the top players of these characters get better.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Luigi and Olimar both have weaknesses that are mitigated by player skill. A Luigi who cannot powershield will get walled out, but a Luigi who can, will punish you for taking advantage of his traction weakness. Olimar can struggle to land and his aerials lose in trades due to priority, but he can super-armor a hitbox and punish with a smash attack.

There are ways around powershield/whistle, but these options are strong and have been shown to be viable as the top players of these characters get better.

Bruh, every last character has weaknesses mitigated by player skill. There’s nothing special about Luigi and olimar’s weaknesses that makes them easier to overcome (besides them being better characters).

 

[Locke 06]

Bruh, every last character has weaknesses mitigated by player skill. There’s nothing special about Luigi and olimar’s weaknesses that makes them easier to overcome (besides them being better characters).

This... Is blatantly false?

 

[InfinitySoul]

ZeRo and VoiD were talking about secondaries on stream the other day. Basically, it's incredibly difficult and time-consuming to get a secondary at the top level. You can't just learn the character - you have to learn how to beat the counterplay that everyone knows.

So then that - IMO - probably moves into another thing. These are already the best players of their characters. Not only do they know all of the counterplay, but they know everything about their mains inside and out. I know Dabuz and ZeRo keep recognizing personally that they want to rely more on the strengths of their mains. Mr. R already has a high opinion of Sheik as well.

It's also doesn't hurt that these players aren't necessarily using characters that don't get *hard* countered anyways (with the possible exception of the Rosa/Cloud MU).

Could you give me the link it was on ? And when ? I would be interested to see it and save it for when my friends consider picking a secondary.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

Yes I meant Lucas and Ness's PSI magnets. I did not know of a term I could use to group them all besides "down b" or "down special" so I called them reflectors. My bad.