Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[|RK|]

Pre-patch Kirby would be the worst character in the game. No throw combos or kill throw would remove a lot.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Pre-patch Kirby would be the worst character in the game. No throw combos or kill throw would remove a lot.

What about Robin?

 

[|RK|]

What about Robin?

She would still have Levin Sword lol

 

[MrGameguycolor]

SNIP

The only low-tier who would of really befitted from no balances patch is King Dedede.
He would still have more air-speed, better Gordos against Megaman and a Hoo Hah kill confirm.

 

[TDK]

ARMS Saga pools are out! It's kind of a weird formula for a 200-man tournament here's how it works:

- Winners finals is played
- Winner goes through to top 32 winners
- Loser goes to Losers finals
- Losers finals is played with loser of winners finals vs the other person in losers bracket
- Winner goes through to top 32 losers
- Loser out

Oh, and four advance. The two winners of WFs and the two winners of LFs (There's two seperate brackets within one pool that cross over a little in losers)

So basically, four people advance and it's probably going to be the ones who made it to WFs.


A1: ZeRo vs Razo and Raito vs Lima in wfs
Other players in this pool: TLTC ,
A2: Dabuz vs K9Sbruce and Locus vs Ac in wfs
Other people in this pool: Sol
A3: Larry Lurr vs Phoenix and Tsu- vs Rich Brown in wfs
Other people in this pool: Stroder
A4: KEN vs Mr. Con Con and Kameme vs Cosmos in wfs
Other people in this pool: Vash
A5: Abadango vs Charliedaking and Falln vs NAKAT in wfs
Other people in this pool: WonderBread
A6: Komorikiri vs Vinnie and Elegant vs Eon in wfs
Other people of this pool: I can't see anyone else in this pool making an upset on these four
A7: Mr. R vs Alphicans and Ranai vs Xzax in wfs
Other people in this pool: Aarvark and Ghost
A8: Tweek vs Eim and VoiD vs Tyrant in wfs
Other people in this pool: Lazyboredom

 

[Amadeus9]

There is plenty of reason to deny it. I'd say the upper half of the characters in this game are in a good, balanced spot, but that doesn't mean things couldn't be further improved. There's absolutely no reason why characters like Ganondorf, Jigglypuff, Zelda, Roy, Bowser Jr, Kirby etc couldn't use more buffs. It wouldn't break the game in any way, we'd just have a larger list of characters to see competing in serious competitive play.

Also, it would be real sweet if 1111 base size Miis would get a ton of buffs too. I'd really like those characters to... Exist competitively speaking.

Without another balance patch, you can basically shave the bottom 12 or so characters from this games roster and lose nothing. As it is, they pretty much don't exist competitively speaking and most likely never will. That's far from the best that can be done. Patches imo are what make this the best Smash Bros game, without them I'm sure by now the meta would be mostly prepatch Shiek and Hoo-Ha. Marth would be garbage, Mewtwo would still be garbage, and a lot of low tier characters that we're actually substantially buffed like Kirby and Charizard would be even lower in the **** can than they already are.

When you've been in fighting games long enough you'll be glad and pleasantly suprised to come out the other side of patch cycles with a game, and have the game still be even playable. A couple characters being unviable at the highest level means absolutely nothing to me.

Seriously be glad nintendo didnt go the crapcom method of "our game isnt being particularly well received... hmm screw it, nuke it all down" and actually balanced the game in a meaningful way. Without making absolutely everyone upset

 

[Nu~]

The only low-tier who would of really befitted from no balances patch is King Dedede.
He would still have more air-speed, better Gordos against Megaman and a Hoo Hah kill confirm.

Nah, Pacman too.

Pre patch usmash
-No end lag

Pre patch hydrant
-12% health which means fresh bair and melon launch it

Pre patch galaxian
-Deals 11% per hit
-Wouldn't lose its hitbox after being hit by weak attacks

Pre patch trampoline
-Launched the opponent way higher into the air
-couldn't be punished on hit


Sure, he'd have slightly weaker fsmash and bair knockback, but what he had before was vastly superior.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Ugh tbh I've played charizard before the patches and was actually winning matches and tourneys in tourney mode before the patches (and DLC) came out.
I think zard could use another balance patch to give him an actual FF or a proper grab combo kill confirm, his uthrow doesn't do much when he can't get an aerial hit in properly because of ****ty mix-up potential and crap air mobility. When Bowser and DK got koo-pa and hoo-hah their viability skyrocketed! Zard needs one too.

 

[Krysco]

I recall @Ffamran I believe it was mentioning before that Falco's old uair was also better since you could connect a sour uair into a bair. No longer a sweet and sour spot on uair anymore although patches in general have been rather nice to Falco...just not enough to make him very relevant.

I also wanna say Ganon's old nair was better. The one that wasn't basically a complete replica of Falcon's. The one where it was actually safe to just land the first hit. There's other low tiers who have had 1 or 2 things nerfed about them but unless your name is King Dedede or Jigglypuff, patches have been rather kind to low tiers...if anything, dlc nerfed their potential usefulness.

 

[Rizen]

's jab 1 rip.

 

[Kofu]

I also wanna say Ganon's old nair was better. The one that wasn't basically a complete replica of Falcon's. The one where it was actually safe to just land the first hit. There's other low tiers who have had 1 or 2 things nerfed about them but unless your name is King Dedede or Jigglypuff, patches have been rather kind to low tiers...if anything, dlc nerfed their potential usefulness.

It's a bit of a tradeoff, his current NAir essentially creates a wall of death for edgeguarding or stopping foolhardy approaches. His edgeguarding is already very strong, though, so the old one would probably be more useful. Also worth noting is that they altered NAir's FAF so you can act out of full hop NAir before landing.

What are the numbers for just landing the first hit of NAir pre- and post-patch, out of curiosity?

 

[Krysco]

It's a bit of a tradeoff, his current NAir essentially creates a wall of death for edgeguarding or stopping foolhardy approaches. His edgeguarding is already very strong, though, so the old one would probably be more useful. Also worth noting is that they altered NAir's FAF so you can act out of full hop NAir before landing.

What are the numbers for just landing the first hit of NAir pre- and post-patch, out of curiosity?

Not the best at using the calculator but from punching in the numbers into this: http://rubendal.github.io/Sm4sh-Calculator/index.html I was able to get this result
http://rubendal.github.io/Sm4sh-Cal...allSpeed=1.5&traction=0.045&useLandingLag=yes
I don't see anywhere where it allows input for the move to be an aerial and therefore a place to put the amount of landing lag a move would have. Just has a spot for what frame you'd land on. I put frame 8 since the hitbox comes out frame 7 I believe.

Current nair is -2 or -4 on shield drop (it got a new hitbox added when it was changed to be like Falcon's) and is -9 or -11 on OoS options. Source: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1GaDXAPQJlz0AiIYSSOWFwy_dg04Rrq4a-YF9-VDOhZI/htmlview# From the calculations I did, the old nair ended up with a shield advantage of +9 without accounting for the landing lag which was 18 frames (it's 17 now). That makes it seem like it'd be the same as it is now (+9 - 18 = -9) and for all I know, maybe it is.

Course, that's all assuming a hit on shield when my main gripe with the move now is that it's unsafe on HIT and I'm not sure how to find out the numbers for that. Course, it's not the only move Ganon has that has that issue. RIP Melee Dark Dive (or even Dark Fists custom) and Wizard Foot.

 

[Kofu]

Not the best at using the calculator but from punching in the numbers into this: http://rubendal.github.io/Sm4sh-Calculator/index.html I was able to get this result
http://rubendal.github.io/Sm4sh-Cal...allSpeed=1.5&traction=0.045&useLandingLag=yes
I don't see anywhere where it allows input for the move to be an aerial and therefore a place to put the amount of landing lag a move would have. Just has a spot for what frame you'd land on. I put frame 8 since the hitbox comes out frame 7 I believe.

Current nair is -2 or -4 on shield drop (it got a new hitbox added when it was changed to be like Falcon's) and is -9 or -11 on OoS options. Source: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1GaDXAPQJlz0AiIYSSOWFwy_dg04Rrq4a-YF9-VDOhZI/htmlview# From the calculations I did, the old nair ended up with a shield advantage of +9 without accounting for the landing lag which was 18 frames (it's 17 now). That makes it seem like it'd be the same as it is now (+9 - 18 = -9) and for all I know, maybe it is.

Course, that's all assuming a hit on shield when my main gripe with the move now is that it's unsafe on HIT and I'm not sure how to find out the numbers for that. Course, it's not the only move Ganon has that has that issue. RIP Melee Dark Dive (or even Dark Fists custom) and Wizard Foot.

Brawl Dark Dive was probably worse; at around 40% quite a few chars could hit him directly out of it (Falco got a free spike).

To be fair with it being unsafe on hit, a lot of moves are at low percents, though Ganon's NAir is the only one off the top of my head that has that particular weakness for multi-hit aerials. Assuming the numbers are right for shield disadvantage, I'd guess it's around a 10-frame disadvantage depending on character weight, fall speed, and Ganon's rage.

 

[Krysco]

Brawl Dark Dive was probably worse; at around 40% quite a few chars could hit him directly out of it (Falco got a free spike).

To be fair with it being unsafe on hit, a lot of moves are at low percents, though Ganon's NAir is the only one off the top of my head that has that particular weakness for multi-hit aerials. Assuming the numbers are right for shield disadvantage, I'd guess it's around a 10-frame disadvantage depending on character weight, fall speed, and Ganon's rage.

Brawl Dark Dive was pitiful. It's bad enough that Falcon/Dark Dive are punishable on hit in every game since Melee if you tech the stage, Brawl Dark Dive was punishable at any percent since the final hit was so pathetically weak. May be a slight exaggeration but it was absolutely awful. Moves being weak on hit is fine, but when the point of the entire character is that everything is meant to be slow and powerful, having slow and weak moves thrown in there seems off and creates major issues for him. Nair is faster than fair, being his fastest front facing aerial but it's unsafe on hit when landing only the first hit. Wizard Foot has the most horizontal reach of any of his moves but it's punishable on hit until higher percents. I can understand that for the later portion of the move but the entire thing suffers from the issue early on. His recovery move only has a hitbox at the end, otherwise, he's relying on that grabbox and the ending hit to keep enemies away and it fails to do that well, stage tech or not.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Characters that would potentially be the worst without patches?

Are we forgetting the atrocity that was day 1 ?

Seriously, switching from into the original was actually painful; just thinking about it again makes me lose my breath and makes my stomach churn. God bless patches.

Oh, I also remember day 1 . That's also pretty awful to think about.

On a different note, remember how other characters started off "meh" overall, and despite getting little changes, developed into good characters? I remember being considered average overall in the beginning; just look at him now. too, though I feel that the nerfing of finally gave way for the Mario we know today. People started giving him a real chance. and kinda had the inverse effect; considered very strong early on, while getting very little/minimal changes, yet dropped continuously.

What's even funnier is that in some parts of the early metagame, was considered a strong character, that even edged on/was in high tier in some lists. However, even though he kept getting little buffs, he slowly started to drop. That's funny to look at.

 

[Tizio Random]

are the characters that got the most from patches. All of them were not functional at all.
I mean, Samus was missing hitboxes here and there and her kit was not cohesive whatsoever. They buffed Mewtwo in basically everything and gave Marcina some more power and remove lag here and there. DK and Bowser received the best kill confirms in the game while Charizard became a character.

 

[Bowserboy3]

are the characters that got the most from patches. All of them were not functional at all.
I mean, Samus was missing hitboxes here and there and her kit was not cohesive whatsoever. They buffed Mewtwo in basically everything and gave Marcina some more power and remove lag here and there. DK and Bowser received the best kill confirms in the game while Charizard became a character.

I'd argue that Bowser ad DK were at the very least functional; especially the latter. They were just lacking overall.

---

To me, the reason they buffed Marth is mostly because he's a fan favourite in terms of competitive play; kinda like Fox. Marth has never been bad, and fans love him, so they likely wanted to address that after realising they didn't just tone him down, but realising they absolutely f***ing gutted him.

I'd also argue that if Brawl ever had patches, the character that would have gotten the Marth treatment in that game would have been Falcon. Admittedly, Falcon suffered mainly because of Brawl's mechanics, but he is also another fan favourite. Not surprising how much he was buffed in the transition from Brawl to Smash 4 at all.

There are a few characters that have usually always just been solid/strong characters in their all appearances; come to mind as the most notable ones, though also comes close too, and to a lesser extent (mainly because of Brawl) . Then we have more recent characters like and who have also stayed as strong characters, and again, kind of . Kind of shows you how well a character is designed if they can be consistently good.

Then we have the flipside, where characters like and who have been consistently bad in pretty much all appearances; heck, wasn't that bad in 64 and was great in Melee, so even she's had a better time than these two. To be fair, Ganon isn't totally bad in comparison to the rest of the cast in Melee, but he's pretty much unviable in most cases. These speak to me as characters that NEED a design overhauls, or are poorly designed overall. It's pretty sad really.

 

[verbatim]

What's even funnier is that in some parts of the early metagame, was considered a strong character, that even edged on/was in high tier in some lists. However, even though he kept getting little buffs, he slowly started to drop. That's funny to look at.

PAC-MAN has been nerfed significantly since launch.

 

[Amadeus9]

I'd argue that Bowser ad DK were at the very least functional; especially the latter. They were just lacking overall.

---

To me, the reason they buffed Marth is mostly because he's a fan favourite in terms of competitive play; kinda like Fox. Marth has never been bad, and fans love him, so they likely wanted to address that after realising they didn't just tone him down, but realising they absolutely f***ing gutted him.

I'd also argue that if Brawl ever had patches, the character that would have gotten the Marth treatment in that game would have been Falcon. Admittedly, Falcon suffered mainly because of Brawl's mechanics, but he is also another fan favourite. Not surprising how much he was buffed in the transition from Brawl to Smash 4 at all.

There are a few characters that have usually always just been solid/strong characters in their all appearances; come to mind as the most notable ones, though also comes close too, and to a lesser extent (mainly because of Brawl) . Then we have more recent characters like and who have also stayed as strong characters, and again, kind of . Kind of shows you how well a character is designed if they can be consistently good.

Then we have the flipside, where characters like and who have been consistently bad in pretty much all appearances; heck, wasn't that bad in 64 and was great in Melee, so even she's had a better time than these two. To be fair, Ganon isn't totally bad in comparison to the rest of the cast in Melee, but he's pretty much unviable in most cases. These speak to me as characters that NEED a design overhauls, or are poorly designed overall. It's pretty sad really.

Personally, especially with smash, i feel that it's important that a game has "bad" or "joke" characters. You need to stop and consider that there are many different goals and playstyles people have; some people want to feel the thrill and satisfaction of winning with a "bad" character. It's not a bad thing at all for such characters to exist. I mean blah blah blah im gonna cite street fighter again lol. A bit ago there was a big tournament in Japan for third strike that was won by an Alex player. It was a really big deal because Alex is not a very good character at all. Why was it a big deal? Because it's a good story! Everyone loves to see an underdog win. There's a reason why stories like Rocky, etc are so popular. Beating the odds is exciting.

 

[|RK|]

Personally, especially with smash, i feel that it's important that a game has "bad" or "joke" characters. You need to stop and consider that there are many different goals and playstyles people have; some people want to feel the thrill and satisfaction of winning with a "bad" character. It's not a bad thing at all for such characters to exist. I mean blah blah blah im gonna cite street fighter again lol. A bit ago there was a big tournament in Japan for third strike that was won by an Alex player. It was a really big deal because Alex is not a very good character at all. Why was it a big deal? Because it's a good story! Everyone loves to see an underdog win. There's a reason why stories like Rocky, etc are so popular. Beating the odds is exciting.

But that same underdog story can exist with an evenly balanced roster. Fighting games are player vs player - you don't need a character-based handicap for that story.

Tbh, I think joke characters in games like Smash *aren't* helpful. People are often attached to characters before they ever know how strong they are. Not everyone is willing to be that low tier hero, either. And if they are, they typically need another character before they're "allowed" to be competitive.

 

[Amadeus9]

But that same underdog story can exist with an evenly balanced roster. Fighting games are player vs player - you don't need a character-based handicap for that story.

Tbh, I think joke characters in games like Smash *aren't* helpful. People are often attached to characters before they ever know how strong they are. Not everyone is willing to be that low tier hero, either. And if they are, they typically need another character before they're "allowed" to be competitive.

Again, you're ignoring the demographic that likes the concept of joke characters. And it's not about everyone "being willing to be that low tier hero". The whole point is that it's NOT everyone. Also I think that if you think the nost important point of balancing is that all characters are viable VS. an overcentralized meta (e. g. The only strategy that beats the best thing in the game is to use the same strategy) then you are more than slightly deluded. If a game isnt overcentralized + is fun to play and watch, the game is a successful one. I think smash 4 has more than proven its merit in this way

 

[Zelder]

Speaking as someone who loves playing joke characters from time to time, I think they work better in series where the characters are original. If you introduce a character as a joke from the start (Dan), no one feels like their representation is disrespected.* Joke characters work in Smash if the character is a joke in their universe (Walugi when, Sakurai) or if it makes thematic sense (Pichu being an underpowered baby version of Pikachu).

Basically what I'm saying is give me two Warios in Smash 5 - Wario Land Wario and WarioWare Wario, and make the second one a joke character.



*I know we just had that long discussion about not being attached to characters, but I'm looking at this from a sales perspective. Smash is a celebration of Nintendo's franchises, and people are probably more inclined to jump in when their favorite character is good.

 

[Zerp]

If there needs to be a joke character in Smash, then it should be someone like Sandbag, specifically designed for the game alone and clearly designed to be a joke, and they shouldn't be a character that has fans outside of Smash, like and all do.

 

[|RK|]

Again, you're ignoring the demographic that likes the concept of joke characters. And it's not about everyone "being willing to be that low tier hero". The whole point is that it's NOT everyone. Also I think that if you think the nost important point of balancing is that all characters are viable VS. an overcentralized meta (e. g. The only strategy that beats the best thing in the game is to use the same strategy) then you are more than slightly deluded. If a game isnt overcentralized + is fun to play and watch, the game is a successful one. I think smash 4 has more than proven its merit in this way

The people below me basically have it down. Even not taking the character themselves into the equation, it sucks when a character that fits your playstyle most is bad.

And I think Smash 4's balance is good. But having a very balanced roster is amazing, and many fighting games do have that these days (Guilty Gear, Tekken, etc.).

On top of that, the demographic of people who like joke characters probably won't ignore a game like Smash just because their character of choice is, say, mid tier. Typically you can still find reward from extra effort without your character being complete trash.

That's usually why some of the best low tier mains don't believe their character *is* a joke character.

 

[outfoxd]

Basically it's easier to swallow joke characters when it's their explicit purpose and not because they happened to be underpowered by accident. No one wants to jump into a character they like without knowing they're stuck playing crap from the outset. I know I didn't start playing DH 2 years ago because I figured I'd be showing what a joke could do. I saw MVD high in bracket at Apex and figured I wrangled a good pick.

Transparency is always a plus.

 

[Amadeus9]

The people below me basically have it down. Even not taking the character themselves into the equation, it sucks when a character that fits your playstyle most is bad.

And I think Smash 4's balance is good. But having a very balanced roster is amazing, and many fighting games do have that these days (Guilty Gear, Tekken, etc.).

On top of that, the demographic of people who like joke characters probably won't ignore a game like Smash just because their character of choice is, say, mid tier. Typically you can still find reward from extra effort without your character being complete trash.

That's usually why some of the best low tier mains don't believe their character *is* a joke character.

I mean those games still have their potemkins, their lucky chloes... And im not saying that ganon/puff specifically *are* joke characters (well puff totally is), and theres even some real merit in ganon as a cp character. And thats kind of its own topic. Amazing Tekken players have lost to mid level lucky chloes because of unfamiliarity in matchup.

Consider also how slippery of a balancing slope so many characters have in this and other games. a slight angle change on mks uair meant the difference between a top 5 character and a top 20 one. Puff is widely hated in melee for his slow + abusive nature of the exploiting the game's mechanics. One small oversight with frame data gave blazblues kokonoe an infinite block string into an unblockable super. i take myself back to my initial point. If the game doesnt have an overcentralizing tactic, the game is most likely a successful one.

And just as an aside, gotta manage your expectations a bit. there's over 50 characters in this game, one of them has to be the 50th

 

[my_T]

I mean those games still have their potemkins, their lucky chloes... And im not saying that ganon/puff specifically *are* joke characters (well puff totally is), and theres even some real merit in ganon as a cp character. And thats kind of its own topic. Amazing Tekken players have lost to mid level lucky chloes because of unfamiliarity in matchup.

Consider also how slippery of a balancing slope so many characters have in this and other games. a slight angle change on mks uair meant the difference between a top 5 character and a top 20 one. Puff is widely hated in melee for his slow + abusive nature of the exploiting the game's mechanics. One small oversight with frame data gave blazblues kokonoe an infinite block string into an unblockable super. i take myself back to my initial point. If the game doesnt have an overcentralizing tactic, the game is most likely a successful one.

And just as an aside, gotta manage your expectations a bit. there's over 50 characters in this game, one of them has to be the 50th

Tekken's not really a good comparison. Lucky Chloe may be one of the worse if not the worst in the game but she's not comparable to characters like Ganon or Puff in Smash 4. Lucky Chloe is much closer to the rest of the Tekken roster in terms of power level. Ganon and Puff have a lot of lopsided MU's that aren't in their favor and are nowhere near the power level of the top and high tiers in Smash 4.

Mobility alone gives every character in Tekken a fighting chance as it's almost universal. You have a few special cases like characters with wavedashes or Alisa with her ridiculous back dash but if you as a player have decent movement then a large majority of the MU's are manageable no matter who you play.

 

[Amadeus9]

Tekken's not really a good comparison. Lucky Chloe may be one of the worse if not the worst in the game but she's not comparable to characters like Ganon or Puff in Smash 4. Lucky Chloe is much closer to the rest of the Tekken roster in terms of power level. Ganon and Puff have a lot of lopsided MU's that aren't in their favor and are nowhere near the power level of the top and high tiers in Smash 4.

Mobility alone gives every character in Tekken a fighting chance as it's almost universal. You have a few special cases like characters with wavedashes or Alisa with her ridiculous back dash but if you as a player have decent movement then a large majority of the MU's are manageable no matter who you play.

It's still *a* comparison and i dont believe it is one without merit

I would like to pose this question however. People arguing that ganon/puff/etc are overly bad, do you think that the game is a worse game because of their existence? That the game's balance is significantly adversely affected by their existence? That if they weren't in the game the game would be better?

 

[Skeeter Mania]

I think zard could use another balance patch to give him an actual FF

What's wrong with his fast fall?

 

[ARISTOS]

theres even some real merit in ganon as a cp character

No there is not lmao

I would like to pose this question however. People arguing that ganon/puff/etc are overly bad, do you think that the game is a worse game because of their existence? That the game's balance is significantly adversely affected by their existence? That if they weren't in the game the game would be better?

As a game?

Nah they're fine. The more the merrier.

As part of a meta they play no role, they have no role to fill. In terms of balance (nothing over centralizing) they don't do so, they are irrelevant. In terms of balance (character strength comparatively) it's a sore spot to have characters like this who are quite distant from those at the top.

I don't think it's bad to have them in the game, but I do think it is bad to have left them as non-functional as they are without intending for them to be joke characters.

 

[dakotaisgreat]

There's no reason to believe there has ever been an intentional joke character in the smash Bros series besides Pichu. You can't take a ****ty character and then say they are ****ty because they are meant to intentionally be funny, even though nothing in their kit suggests that they are supposed to be funny. I've seen a lot of people say Jiggs is a joke character even though she was good in 64 and Melee, there's really no reason to believe she's kept intentionally bad.

Though, I can see sometimes the balance team for Smash 4 made choices that aren't centered around the competitive side of the series. And I completely understand and respect that. Of course they don't balance the game around 1v1s, that's the reason attacks like Din's Fire, Rollout, Jet Hammer and other attacks like that exist. I think Dedede and Jigglypuff suffer from this "casual balancing" the most. In a random wacky free for all with Items Dedede lives forever and can wrack up kills by throwing out random F Smashes for example, **** like that.

Anyways, I guess I did make my point. I wouldn't have any /issue/ if this game was never patched again. But I certainly hope it is. Remember, as characters like Mewtwo have shown, your ****ty low tier main is only a patch away from competitive relevance. A lot of times I see people on smashboards trying to have a really anti-complaint attitude. It's frowned upon to talk about the very real effect "tiers" can have on your game, my game, and everyone else's. So please, don't think of it as whining when people say they'd like another patch to buff their favorite low tiers. You can say "just adapt" and "the better player always wins" all you want, and you wouldn't necessarily be wrong. But at the end of the day, you can be one of the best Bowser Jr mains in the world and you'll still be a lot less intimidating to me than a decent Cloud.

The game is good, but it can be better. That's all I'm saying. I ramble.

To try to change the subject, I learned a lot about Wario when I asked about what's going on with that character when I asked you guys about him last week. What about Wii Fit Trainer? What's going on with that character? Do you think they will be moving up or down in the next tier list? Have any super good Wii Fit mains broken out recently? Any new tech or anything?

 

[verbatim]

And just as an aside, gotta manage your expectations a bit. there's over 50 characters in this game, one of them has to be the 50th

We've been on this patch for more than a year and there is no universally recognized 1st. I don't see the need for a definitive last.

 

[ArnoldPalmer]

You know who really got the most out of patches? The characters that were made completely irrelevant by prepatch Sheik, Diddy, Rosa, MK, Bayonetta, and even Cloud
Look how far those characters have gotten now. Look at how their metas have progressed. Now imagine them with all of their prepatch bull****.
Almost nobody would be playable at a high/top level aside from them. It wouldn't matter how bad prepatch DK was, he and the rest of the cast were irrelevant anyways. Thank you daddy Sakurai

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

With how balance patches literally ignored Jigglypuff with how many there were and how she was designed in Smash 4 I have trouble believe she wasn't a joke character. Now while I don't believe she's the worst character in the game I don't think the development team intended for her to be good unlike other lower tier characters who weren't made intentionally flawed but it was a product of thier design. A while back a interview with Sakurai and his approach to D3's transition from Brawl to 4 was posted, Sakurai clearly thought D3 was too strong for his ideal design of the character resulting in his nerfs. Now while he went overboard with it along with the changes in mechanics and gameplay from Brawl it resulted in what we have now. But it was clear he didn't intend for him to be bad, that's just what happened. Obviously you can't just give him Shiek level combos or Sonic Speed because that wouldn't be D3 anymore. Aside Jigglypuff I don't think any character was made to be a joke it's just what thier flawed design lead to

 

[|RK|]

I want to add that there's a difference between trash tier and simply being worse than other characters. Yes, there are characters that aren't great in both Tekken and Guilty Gear. But people are rewarded for their time sunk all the same. From what I've seen others say about Potemkin, actually, he's harder to play as you just start out... But he can be rewarding later on.

That's something you can't really say to a Puff main with a straight face.

Also, relevant af:

People look at fighting game balance from a very selfish perspective. They want to win, & they want to do it with their favorite characters.

— Keits (Prime) (@TheKeits) July 7, 2017

 

[Game7a1]

So ARMS Saga pools have been updated once again. Instead of posting top 32 (because that's been posted), I'm going to post where the notable Little Macs are in each pool.
A1: None
A2: Sol
A3: Destany
A4: BrawlerG31, Vash
A5: WonderBread
A6: Cagt
A7: Alphicans
A8: BlackDynoWright, Lazyboredom, pu55yking, ZartZu
And according to A8, all the Macs pretty much fight in each other either in Winner's or Loser's. And why A1 doesn't have a single Mac is beyond me. So this tournament, from the start, is not being kind to Mac. Granted, none were projected to make it out of pools, but having about 35% of the Macs in one pool doesn't help.

(Summer of Smash thread will be up soon.)

 

[Thinkaman]

Thinkaman's Compendium of Everything There Is To Say About Patches:

1. Patches are good.
2. It would probably be bad if you patched too much. (But they don't)
3. It would probably be bad if they changed too much. (But they didn't)
4. It would probably be good if they patched again. (But they won't)
5. The best characters in Smash 4 are better than the other characters (But not much, compared to other games)
6. The worst characters in Smash 4 are worse than the other characters (But not much, compared to other games)
7. There will be another Smash game in the future. (And it will probably have patches)

I will use my moderator powers to "patch" any further discussion of this dead heap of horses. Carry on.

 

[PK Gaming]

I want to add that there's a difference between trash tier and simply being worse than other characters. Yes, there are characters that aren't great in both Tekken and Guilty Gear. But people are rewarded for their time sunk all the same. From what I've seen others say about Potemkin, actually, he's harder to play as you just start out... But he can be rewarding later on.

That's something you can't really say to a Puff main with a straight face.

Also, relevant af:

People look at fighting game balance from a very selfish perspective. They want to win, & they want to do it with their favorite characters.

— Keits (Prime) (@TheKeits) July 7, 2017

This is more obvious than relevant.

Of course people want to win with their favorite characters...having to pass up on a character you like in order to win with a tournament viable character can be disappointing for many. For example, ZeRo has even stated that if Shulk were top tier he'd main him. And it should be obvious to everyone how much he loves Xenoblade.

That said, dwelling on patches or strongly wishing for a patch to save your character is pointless.

EDIT:
Thinkaman put it best

 

[NotLiquid]

Spoiler: PGRv3 Top 10

10. Abadango
9. Mr. R
8. Komorikiri
7. CaptainZack
6. Larry Lurr
5. Ally
4. Dabuz
3. Nairo
2. MKLeo
1. ZeRo

 

[|RK|]

This is more obvious than relevant.

Of course people want to win with their favorite characters...having to pass up on a character you like in order to win with a tournament viable character can be disappointing for many. For example, ZeRo has even stated that if Shulk were top tier he'd main him. And it should be obvious to everyone how much he loves Xenoblade.

That said, dwelling on patches or strongly wishing for a patch to save your character is pointless.

EDIT:
Thinkaman put it best

I care very little about the patch discussion. I was talking about the idea of joke characters mostly; patches got thrown in.