Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[Nathan Richardson]

If you choose to see your set of pixels on a screen as more meaningful that's fine; expecting other people to also see your character as more than pixels on a screen is not okay. When I'm fighting Lucina in game I don't regard her story or character in any way. She's just hurtboxes, frame data, a moving figure on the tournament TV. When I analyze her as a character relative to Marth or others in the game it's the same; she's a collection of data, not something with real sentimental value. That's how it should be.

Character attachment isn't the problem. The problem is when you choose to adopt and defend arguments in an objective discussion solely on the basis of your character attachment. People were actually seriously comparing the difference between Marth and Lucina to the difference between Falcon and Ganon, and other people were supporting such an obviously groundless argument just because it speaks in favor of Lucina. When it's convenient for them, these same people will claim that they play Lucina over Marth because Lucina's playstyle is preferable to them; and when it's equally convenient, they'll claim that they actually play her for sentimental value or attachment. So which is it? The answer is that there's no consistent logical basis for any of these arguments; people are just agreeing with whatever argument supports their conclusion with no regard for its objective merit.

It's bull**** and like all good bull**** it deserves to be called out, that's all. I've posted bull**** before, been called out on it, and retracted my position. That's how good discussion should be. It's nothing personal against anyone.

So essentially what you're saying in a tl;dr fashion is "Don't force your character attachment down everyone else's throats and don't make arguments that only work if other people are also attached to that character" ?

 

[Nobie]

I think it's more that people have a tendency to use whatever argument best helps their own position, even if it means being a hypocrite, or using flawed data. "The ends justify the means," in a sense.

Here's an example that has nothing to do with characters:

When arguing whether or not a game is competitive, you'll hear from some that having the same pros winning at the top all the time means a game is too easily figure out, and then hear from others that having inconsistent top 8s means a game is too random. Which is it? It's whichever is most convenient for the narrative being pushed.

For something more directly Smash related...

I mentioned the whole Trampoline vs. Diddy thing a few days back, but I think one thing I didn't quite make clear is just how much it shows the importance of Diddy's ground game to making up for the gaps in his aerial game. Diddy has incredible aerial tools, but they have severe limitations. Fair is great but the lack of air speed means it's better for walling than approaching. Monkey Flip is an automatic mixup, but it has to travel a set distance (which is why it gets pivot grabbed by good players). Diddy's walk/run combined with the power of down tilt basically plugs up the holes in his game plan. On some level, I wonder if the reason Ally beats ZeRo is because he scares ZeRo into not walking, and when ZeRo tries to short hop safely, WAHOO -> monkey goes flying.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

But doesn't THAT mean that the discussion is completely moot because it's so subjective and is fully dependent on whoever's pushing forward the discussion in the first place? And wouldn't this belong more in general discussion instead of on here?

 

[Floor]

So essentially what you're saying in a tl;dr fashion is "Don't force your character attachment down everyone else's throats and don't make arguments that only work if other people are also attached to that character" ?

There's a lot of things we shouldn't be pushing down people's throats.

NairWizard the Falcon Ganon topic was about character- exclusive strategies. It wasn't suggesting that they are similar characters, but rather admitting they were very different, so if you mained either of them, you should practice playing them; not switching to the other because "they have similar movesets, right? " The consensus, as I remember it, was that their are several characters that can teach anyone anything, such as how Marth teaches you to appreciate spacing. Furthermore, I don't remember anyone supporting anything one way or the other due to character bias. If you can show me anything that says otherwise, I'll happily retract this.

Also I don't think this needs saying but there are tons of reasons why people play any character, Lucina included. Multiple can be right at the same time. She was my favorite character Day 0 and one of the characters I was most excited to pick up. Few years later, 10 characters being picked up and dropped and she's the only one to stick; she feels the most comfortable and I like her over Marth. So, her data and her character herself both apply to why I like/play her.

 

[TDK]

Just Roll With It 7 (144 Entrants) (North Carolina)

1st: Peabnut
2nd: Lee
3rd: Donquavious
4th: Dandy Penguin
5th: Promaelia (There, happy?)
5th: Kai
7th: Mekos
7th: RFang
9th: Gael
9th: Eldin
9th: Puppeh
9th: Zephyr
13th: Zebra
13th: Ak8s Phantasmagoria
13th: Black Yoshi
13th: Hiro

Climax 2 (72 Entrants) (Ohio)

1st: Darkshad
2nd: Cosmos
3rd: Captain Zack
4th: Miloni

 

[ARGHETH]

Just Roll With It 7 (144 Entrants) (I think it's North Carolina?)

1st: Peabnut
2nd: Lee
3rd: Donquavious
4th: Dandy Penguin
5th: Promaelia (There, happy?)
5th: Kai
7th: Mekos
7th: RFang
9th: Gael
9th: Eldin
9th: Puppeh
9th: Zephyr
13th: Zebra
13th: Ak8s Phantasmagoria
13th: Black Yoshi
13th: Hiro

Climax 2 (72 Entrants) (Ohio)

1st: Darkshad
2nd: Cosmos
3rd: Captain Zack
4th: Miloni

Just Roll With It 7's in Raleigh, NC.
Also, Cosmos apparently 3-1'd Zack before getting 3-0'd by Darkshad.

 

[NairWizard]

There's a lot of things we shouldn't be pushing down people's throats.

NairWizard the Falcon Ganon topic was about character- exclusive strategies. It wasn't suggesting that they are similar characters, but rather admitting they were very different, so if you mained either of them, you should practice playing them; not switching to the other because "they have similar movesets, right? " The consensus, as I remember it, was that their are several characters that can teach anyone anything, such as how Marth teaches you to appreciate spacing.

Yes, Falcon and Ganon are very different. The point was that the difference between Falcon and Ganon has absolutely no bearing on the difference between Marth and Lucina. Falcon and Ganon are different by almost 90% if you take startup time, endlag, hitbox size and duration, movement parameters, everything into account. They have about 10% similarity. Meanwhile, Marth and Lucina's differences barely scratch 10%. They have tipper differences and power differences, and a few different setups.

That's an enormous differential so it's not comparable at all.

By the way, it's worth saying that you, sir, are pretty cool and non-toxic in general. I like interacting with you. My comments were not directed at you.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

True there's a lot of characters who are much closer together like Marth and Lucina, there's also Pit and Dark Pit obviously. Erm, what characters would people often mistake for having similar movesets on the surface but being drastically different frame data wise? I think Fox and Falco would be one example of that....

 

[sleepy_Nex]

Did promaelia Really go only corrin?

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Did promaelia Really go only corrin?

From what I saw yes, something interesting to note is he was incredibly close to getting reverse 3-0'd by RFang after he switched from his Sheik to Mario in what's supposed to be a bad MU for Mario.

 

[ARGHETH]

From what I saw yes, something interesting to note is he was incredibly close to getting reverse 3-0'd by RFang after he switched from his Sheik to Mario in what's supposed to be a bad MU for Mario.

I mean, it's a bad MU if the Corrin knows the MU, especially at mid-high level. Otherwise, Corrin can have problems keeping Mario out, and disadvantage vs Mario is still bad.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

True there's a lot of characters who are much closer together like Marth and Lucina, there's also Pit and Dark Pit obviously. Erm, what characters would people often mistake for having similar movesets on the surface but being drastically different frame data wise? I think Fox and Falco would be one example of that....

Not frame data wise, but I'd say Ness and Lucas since some players who are unfamiliar with Lucas will think our PK Thunder has the same properties as Ness and let us get away with a lot of stuff... or they can say Lucas can be easily edgeguarded due to aerials and projectiles getting rid of PK Thunder 1.

 

[Nu~]

Did promaelia Really go only corrin?

Nah, he brought out palutena against peab.

 

[TDK]

Vivid 3-2 6WX

6WX goes out at 17th at Smashadelphia.

 

[blackghost]

Just Roll With It 7 (144 Entrants) (North Carolina)



Climax 2 (72 Entrants) (Ohio)

1st: Darkshad
2nd: Cosmos
3rd: Captain Zack
4th: Miloni

what stream was this on?

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

Just Roll with It 7 https://twitch.tv/zinfu

 

[TDK]

what stream was this on?

it was here: https://www.twitch.tv/warpworldgaming

 

[Lord Dio]

ARMS Saga question: I know there was a fundraiser for Mac players like Alphicans to attend. Do we know if Duffo and Sol are attending?

 

[FeelMeUp]

ESAM 3-1 Dabuz in Smashadelphia 2017's WF.
Stream: https://www.smashcast.tv/clashtournaments

 

[Laken64]

Looks like hes finally adapted after 2 sets, props to Esam winning against Dabuz.

 

[TDK]

ARMS Saga question: I know there was a fundraiser for Mac players like Alphicans to attend. Do we know if Duffo and Sol are attending?

Sol and Vash were flown out specifically for the event. Duffo is currently not, to my knowledge.

Also, Team Japan (Komorikiri , Ranai , Kameme , Abadango , KEN , Tsu- , Raito , and Shuton ) has been put into the compendium. If it's funded, they'll be flown out for both ARMS saga and EVO. Definitely worth spreading the word or donating.

https://smash.gg/tournament/2ggc-arms-saga/shop/2ggift-shop-13

SMASHADELPHIA 2017 (118 Entrants) (Philadelphia)

1st: ESAM
2nd: Dabuz
3rd: WaDi
4th: Mew2King
5th: Shoyo James
5th: Light
7th: dekillsage
7th: Raptor

 

[Nu~]

Um.

Salem can't be serious...right?

 

[NotLiquid]

Um.

Salem can't be serious...right?

It's not CaptainZack tweeting, so yes he probably is.

 

[TDK]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

 

[C0rvus]

2GG is hosting a donation drive for Komorikiri, Ranai, KEN, Shuton, Tsu, Kameme, Abadango, and Raitofor Arms Saga. Also, I believe they are all confirmed for EVO (besides Tsu I believe)

Damn, where is the community getting the money to send so many players to every saga? They have one like, monthly, right? Maybe I'm just a salty part-timer ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[ぱみゅ]

Judging from the way he tweets, Salem seems to believe Bayonetta is truly broken.
Not good, not busted, not just "broken". Ground-breaking levels of brokenness.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Is that why Salem uses Bayo then? If something is that broken....doesn't that make the game less balanced? Is it Brawl MK levels of broken? I don't think so myself.

 

[Routa]

Mac mains got kinda ****ed after they announced the donation drive for the team Japan. What on earth were they even thinking... Ofc people are going to throw their parents' money on the team Japan instead of bringging some hidden talent and reps from more hidden communities. Rip ZartZu and other Macs. And yes I am salty about this.

 

[PJB]

Not saying it's the right decision, but bringing in players like Ranai or Tsu will definitely get Arms Saga more viewership than hidden boss Mac mains. It's easy to understand why they made the decision, for better or worse.

 

[Illusion.]

Revolt 2017 (99 entrants, New Mexico)

1st. SAK | Stroder
2nd. SAK | Skylar
3rd. HLG | BANG!
4th. Fahrenheit
5th. 4BR | Illusion
5th. Tetsuyalol
7th. LS | Red Panda
7th. HoboJoe

 

[blackghost]

Judging from the way he tweets, Salem seems to believe Bayonetta is truly broken.
Not good, not busted, not just "broken". Ground-breaking levels of brokenness.

To me the smash 4 community is the only time I've seen a character claimed as broken yet never actually wins events to suggest it. Vharacters that are broken produce results and have a mu chart that backs it up. If Salem is gonna talk this much he needs to win events with this so called broken character.
He's making a lot of claims lately and he needs to start backing it up or its really just noise. Stop talking and go prove it.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

To me the smash 4 community is the only time I've seen a character claimed as broken yet never actually wins events to suggest it. Vharacters that are broken produce results and have a mu chart that backs it up. If Salem is gonna talk this much he needs to win events with this so called broken character.
He's making a lot of claims lately and he needs to start backing it up or its really just noise. Stop talking and go prove it.

Salem did get 2nd at Nairo saga. Keep in mind he started in the top 48 in the Losers Bracket. At Nairo Saga Salem basically did a run worthy of a first place win of any big tournament. Beating Mr.R, Tweek, KEN, Ally, Nairo and MKLeo then took ZeRo to game 5 at GF.

Not agreeing that Bayo is broken like he is saying. But that was quite the feat and more than proved his worth as a player

 

[TDK]

Both Salem and Zack, Bayo's two best players, seem to be just as likely to go out in the 17th and below range than to make top 8. When they're playing at their best maybe Bayo seems broken but neither of them are very consistent, and I'm not sure if it's the character or just them.

 

[blackghost]

Both Salem and Zack, Bayo's two best players, seem to be just as likely to go out in the 17th and below range than to make top 8. When they're playing at their best maybe Bayo seems broken but neither of them are very consistent, and I'm not sure if it's the character or just them.

That's the thing broken characters aren't inconsistent. They routinely take majors and locals across various scenes from various players. I've seen broken original injustice superman (blockstring infinite, safe zoning, way too much damage and a 2 frame super), mvc 3 Phoenix ( have to kill her twice she can kill anyone in the game in one combo and a free incoming mix up), sagat sf4, red venom (designed to be busted), storm Marvel 2, sentinel (marvel 2), magneto (marvel 2)ECT.
Broken characters also tend to elevate players to a level that they often cannot repeat. Such as evo champ viscant. He never had success on that level after Phoenix was changed. Sagat made players like Mike Ross into viable tourney threats.
Broken characters do several things to a game
They dominate so completely that a characters value can be determined based on how well they fight that character
They elevate players maybe beyond their threshold
Have a mechanic or exploit in the brand that cannot be countered (marvel 2 sentinel has permanent super armor and storm can fly away and build get meter
They Have no weakness in their kit (sagat and injustice 1 prepatch superman)
This is based off my experience with fighting games.
Don't think bayo has even one of those covered.

 

[Y2Kay]

I haven't gotten to digest all three hours of this, but it's been good so far.

Also shoutouts to @NinjaLink for being the biggest influence on how I think about the game. Thanks sensei~

 

[ShadowGuy1]

PGR 55-51

55.Shoyo James
54.K9sBruce
53.Tyrant
52.Trela
51.Wrath

And with X factors...
82.Shoyo James
59.Wrath
52.K9
50.Tyrant
47.Trela

EDIT: Ignore all number so for the non X factor rank as the PG stat team stated that they were all equal (according to their reddit post)

EDIT:It also seems like the rankings would be focused more on h2h (like OrionRank if memory serves me correctly) just based on the rankings so far (and the hint one of the staff did in their post)

 

[Kofu]

That's the thing broken characters aren't inconsistent. They routinely take majors and locals across various scenes from various players. I've seen broken original injustice superman (blockstring infinite, safe zoning, way too much damage and a 2 frame super), mvc 3 Phoenix ( have to kill her twice she can kill anyone in the game in one combo and a free incoming mix up), sagat sf4, red venom (designed to be busted), storm Marvel 2, sentinel (marvel 2), magneto (marvel 2)ECT.
Broken characters also tend to elevate players to a level that they often cannot repeat. Such as evo champ viscant. He never had success on that level after Phoenix was changed. Sagat made players like Mike Ross into viable tourney threats.
Broken characters do several things to a game
They dominate so completely that a characters value can be determined based on how well they fight that character
They elevate players maybe beyond their threshold
Have a mechanic or exploit in the brand that cannot be countered (marvel 2 sentinel has permanent super armor and storm can fly away and build get meter
They Have no weakness in their kit (sagat and injustice 1 prepatch superman)
This is based off my experience with fighting games.
Don't think bayo has even one of those covered.

I think the complaints about Bayo being broken stem from how she seems to "break" existing game conventions. Multiple uses of recovery specials that don't send her into freefall (though the last part of that isn't unique), a counter that is arguably more lethal than any of the others despite not doing direct damage, dodges that come out quicker than any other characters' (with a caveat but still), rather generous hitboxes, a very strong recovery, and flexible combos that can convert into death at virtually any percent.

Personally I don't entirely agree with all those points but they seem to be what a lot of players focus on. She does have some dumb aspects (Witch Time, mainly), but folks who complain about her seem to be preoccupied with what they hate about her rather than actually working on their counterplay or learning her limits.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

^ So what are Bayo's limits then?

 

[verbatim]

Her grabs are really bad, as are her purely horizontal burst options. If you can't hit someone in front of you w/ fair or up b all of your approach options are easily punishable. Bayo's generally opt for nair-plane, bullet arts, side b, or tomohawking in this situation, but as a whole they are a lot weaker than a lot of other top tier options. Aspects of Bat Within and her mobility lets a lot of characters get unique frame traps on her (mainly Sheik and Diddy, two of her hardest matchups). DK gets a ridiculously large ding dong window for similar reasons.

 

[Lord Dio]

PGR 55-51

55.Shoyo James
54.K9sBruce
53.Tyrant
52.Trela
51.Wrath

And with X factors...
82.Shoyo James
59.Wrath
52.K9
50.Tyrant
47.Trela

EDIT: Ignore all number so for the non X factor rank as the PG stat team stated that they were all equal (according to their reddit post)

EDIT:It also seems like the rankings would be focused more on h2h (like OrionRank if memory serves me correctly) just based on the rankings so far (and the hint one of the staff did in their post)

where was this found/where can I see it?