Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[blackghost]

Minor correction here: Tweek got 5th with Bayo, losing to 6WX and Eon .

What is the current belief on fox v bayo? I know many people looked at it as easily bayo but I keep seeing pink fresh, Zach, and other bayo mains lose sets recently.

 

[TDK]

Zach,

The Fox-Bayo matchup seems to depend on how well the Bayo can fair chain fox off the stage. If you can, you get a match that ends in less than 30 seconds (Salem vs Larry at olympus), but if you can't Fox seems to hold his own.

 

[Rizen]

Crouching under attacks can be a good technique. I don't have personal experience playing but as @Nah pointed out it shouldn't help her as much as ground fighters like . How can jiggs utilize crouch with her playstyle? Most of what she does revolves around maneuvering in the air to space. I recognize her DA does not rebound and that's a useful trait for a burst option but also that her run and walk speed are hot garbage. Against characters like CF, who are good at dancing around on the ground trying to get an opening for burst options, I can't see Jiggz's crouch have much influence on the MU at all. Does she have any comboes started from ground bursts?

 

[ぱみゅ]

Fox can always SDI (either up or down) to escape the Fair chain. However, he is very susceptible to all of her combos and mixups (yes, that includes the Fair chain itself).
The matchup isn't terrible tho, Fox has incredible burst range out of shield, if Bayo is in the air Fox can just hold shield and react to her landing options, and if she is in the ground Fox has the better frame data.

btw, this one particular matchup is what convinced me that Bat Within is nothing but a glorified airdodge, since all of Fox Vortex's frametraps will still work.

 

[Rizen]

btw, this one particular matchup is what convinced me that Bat Within is nothing but a glorified airdodge, since all of Fox Vortex's frametraps will still work.

It is a glorified air dodge but that doesn't make it any less effective. Link for example can Dthrow>Utilt/Usmash/FH Nair/Dash FH Uair (rage and damage depending) many characters but a lot of it relies on air dodges being frame 2 or 3 and keeping the character in places so the lingering hitboxs outlasts the dodge. A frame 1 bat within is more effective at escaping frame trap combos than most airdodges.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Is no one going to update on Royal Flush?

 

[NotLiquid]

Is no one going to update on Royal Flush?

There's a thread for it. If you want the bracket, here it is.

Top 8
Winners

ZeRo vs SuperGirlKels
Tweek vs Mr. R

Losers

WaDi vs The Great Gonzales
Nairo vs VoiD

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Royal Flush certainly has been a girl's night out, hasn't it?

Kels getting her 2nd (IIRC) national/major Top 8 placing, and IcyMist putting in work by beating players like Marss.

 

[TDK]

Revenge of the 6ix, episode I (139 Entrants) (Ontario)

1st: Mistake
2nd: Blacktwins
3rd: LetsTickle
4th: Chrim Foisch
5th: FALGOD
5th: Yoh
7th: iModerz
7th: nanaba
9th: X
9th: Sirbeebee
9th: Xyro (Most used characters according to SSBWorld)
9th: BreaD
13th: Notes
13th: PiNK
13th: Jw
13th: Jell0

Elements Fighting Game Challenge #6 (37 Entrants) (British Columbia)

1st: Konga
2nd: Big D
3rd: Captain L
4th: Locus

These names roll right off the tongue.

 

[Illusion.]

Revenge of the 6ix, episode I (139 Entrants) (Ontario)
9th: Xyro

Canadian Xyro uses I believe.

 

[Nobie]

I've started wondering if it's not that Mewtwo is disadvantaged against Diddy Kong, but rather that Mewtwo is disadvantaged against ZeRo.

Sure, most players and characters going up against the best Smash 4 player in the world is going to suffer, but there's something extra about just ZeRo's playstyle in general that seems to frustrate Mewtwos.

Mewtwo's a character with a ton of powerful tools and good reward, but each time Mewtwo makes the wrong guess, each time Mewtwo gets outsmarted, it hurts a ton. Are you going to be able to consistently out-neutral ZeRo without him finding any openings? It's a tall order when ZeRo is the master of just keeping opponents pinned down, whether or not he's using Diddy Kong.

 

[DunnoBro]

Nah m2 loses, though it largely comes down to just how much earlier he dies consistently (Excluding edgeguards)

Diddy requires approximately 5-7 neutral wins (less with rage), while mewtwo requires somewhere around 10. Of course, mewtwo's neutral is easily on-par with diddy's, at least in this matchup. And m2 is superb at edgeguarding, but it's still not as exact a science as dtilt > usmash or even just ledge guards.

 

[TDK]

https://www.gofundme.com/get-raito-to-ceo-2017

This is the GoFundMe for Raito to come to CEO 2017. I'd love to see him again, and I hope this meets its goal.

 

[FeelMeUp]

still beats but Mewtwo can make neutral aggravating by corner camping with SB. Mostly eliminates the threat of crossup roll, makes you able to easily react to fullhop banana, abuses Diddy's bad airspeed, makes SHAD bair bad, minimizes damage after being hit by said banana, and forces stalemates where Diddy has to approach the fortress.
I personally hate the matchup because Diddy gets gimped by both nair and bair easily while having trouble approaching and getting large damage out of combos. It's one of those where I'd rather opt for instead.

 

[Y2Kay]

Mewtwo's Diddy match up is bad but not nearly as bad as the VODs make out it to be. The diddy match up has thoroughly gotten in to mewtwo players' heads. The poor mentality of certain mewtwo players about this match uup is one of the reasons I don't really play him as much anymore.

 

[Luigi player]

Yeah M2s were weird about Diddy. I've always felt like it was even or M2s favor lol. Outrange him with dtilt, camp him with Shadow Balls, can jump around the banana well, combo and juggle him easily and pretty hard, gimp him very easily with nairs (though it's not easy to get him into such a position in the first place).

Only things making me think the MU might be -1 were Diddys killpower with dtilt->usmash (though getting dtilted should be avoidable since M2 outranges Diddy on the ground with its own dtilt which leads into scary combos, or 50:50s at higher %) and results. But many people including me often said most Mewtwos play the MU wrong, but it seemed like more and more went emo about it. Though Aba did step it up in the MU lately.

Great showing from WaDi though, he knows his stuff.

 

[L9999]

Shoutouts to Great Gonzales, he had to get past Mr E, Pink Fresh, and Wadi to get 5th with basic Ness things.

 

[TDK]

Royal Flush 2017 (146 Entrants) (New Jersey)

1st: ZeRo
2nd: Mr. R
3rd: Tweek
4th: VoiD
5th: The Great Gonzales
5th: SuperGirlKels
7th: Nairo
7th: WaDi
9th: Pink Fresh
9th: IcyMist
9th: Frozen
9th: Zinoto
13th: Mr. E (His Marth took 2 games the whole tournament)
13th: Sandstorm
13th: ANTi
13th: Zoan

Final Smash (46 Entrants) (New Brunswick)

1st: Catalyst
2nd: SolarFlare
3rd: Soh
4th: C-Salt

 

[NotLiquid]

That was a hairline away from Cloud winning a major and ZeRo got lucky again with the DAir spike.

Feels almost kinda unfair considering how amazing Mr. R played this tournament and how ZeRo was visibly tilted lol.

 

[L9999]

Royal Flush 2017 (146 Entrants) (New Jersey)

1st: ZeRo
2nd: Mr. R
3rd: Tweek
4th: VoiD
5th: The Great Gonzales
5th: SuperGirlKels
7th: Nairo
7th: WaDi
9th: Pink Fresh
9th: IcyMist
9th: Frozen
9th: Zinoto
13th: Mr. E (His Marth took 2 games the whole tournament)
13th: Sandstorm
13th: ANTi
13th: Zoan

Got some Ness action after centuries of drought, Corrin and Samus performed well too, and Lucina is the new Cloud.

 

[|RK|]

That was a hairline away from Cloud winning a major and ZeRo got lucky again with the DAir spike.

Feels almost kinda unfair considering how amazing Mr. R played this tournament and how ZeRo was visibly tilted lol.

I mean, that was obviously not luck. There are a lot of things that are luck in this game, but that was 100% not it.

 

[Yikarur]

Everything you do is probability management. And you could say the probability that Ramin gets screwed for that Wall Jump was pretty low = luck 8)

 

[|RK|]

Everything you do is probability management. And you could say the probability that Ramin gets screwed for that Wall Jump was pretty low = luck 8)

By that definition, literally every hit is luck.

"ZeRo got so lucky that the move he threw out for the express purpose of gimping Mr. R did what he intended."

 

[chaos11011]

I mean, the term "50/50" exists for that reason exactly, doesn't it?

 

[slapfizz]

Cool Cool!!

 

[|RK|]

Any advice on character picks for a relatively new Smash 4 player, coming straight out of Melee?

Cloud works!

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

DandyPenguin beat M2K, not Raito.

Also Fox is still a bad MU. Most Fox players are conditioned through other MUs to play aggro and thats what makes the MU look even for DH bc DH punishes rush ins and, even tho we didnt see it, can break out of Utilt/Uair/Fair with Can (Fair and Uair has to be predicted)

If Fox uses lasers to flip can and carefully applies pressure with his speed, he wins. Most Fox players either just play their game (Larry) or focus too much on the projectiles (too many lasers, Shine). We saw Raito stand behind Can when Larry was laser camping. All you need is to flip it once and apply pressure cuz the Can is now in an awkward state. It stuns Can for a bit.

Duck Hunt's hardest match ups, in order:
Bayonetta, Cloud, Sheik = ROB, Link, and Shulk. Other semi toughies are Fox, Rosalina, and Pikachu, but theyre managable. (DH has other losing MUs but those are the most notable ones)

Also yes, DHs neutral is among one of the best in the game. It's the best of all the mid/low tiers imo and its on par with the high tier threats. Its the greatest quality of the character, along with being able to frame trap and cover in his defensive options (Can + Shield, break out of combos frame 1, intercept hoo haas with stray can, best spotdodge, good air dodge and roll)

What tools do you think Shulk has to beat Duck Hunt really bad? Can you go into details to help with my notes?

 

[chaos11011]

What tools do you think Shulk has to beat Duck Hunt really bad? Can you go into details to help with my notes?

DH struggles immensely with characters that have disjoints. This is because they can sway away Can and Clay Pigeon with relative ease while also challenging FAir. It also works with Can in a way where you cannot defensively pressure with Can + Shield. It's an important aspect to DHs neutral in the lead as it makes any move on shield hit the Can and explodes the opponent, allowing for follow ups. Because of the disjoint, DH cant protect himself like that. Also, he cannot trade in the air with frame 1 Can as only he will get blown up due to the distance

Shulk specifically though, Shield Monato makes it absolutely impossible for DH to get a kill. The only way you really can is if you throw them off and two frame with a run off B Reverse Can. With a lead, Shulk can alternate between Shield and Jump/Speed to maximize living.

Good saving graces in the MU is that DH is incredible at cornering by leaving Can in spots, both when Shulk is running away or just in the neutral. If DH traps Shulk in a corner, and Can is right there to cover his outs, Shulk has a hard time. He excels when he has that space to work with and a smart pup can find ways to cut that off

 

[DunnoBro]

Sheik really isn't that bad for DH in my experience, I've played Mr. R, Void, and none of the sheiks in my region like that matchup. Dthrow kill confirms, he demands she actually approach since everything he does blocks needles while advancing his gamestate, and pretty much all of his 'this is risky' kill set-ups are now 'oh this isn't so bad' due to sheik's inability to just kill on a punish. (SH Dair, Frisbee, or just hail mary smashes trying to punish her fair)

Like it's obviously bad, but not on the level of cloud, fox, or pikachu.

 

[Laken64]

Sheik really isn't that bad for DH in my experience, I've played Mr. R, Void, and none of the sheiks in my region like that matchup. Dthrow kill confirms, he demands she actually approach since everything he does blocks needles while advancing his gamestate, and pretty much all of his 'this is risky' kill set-ups are now 'oh this isn't so bad' due to sheik's inability to just kill on a punish. (SH Dair, Frisbee, or just hail mary smashes trying to punish her fair)

Like it's obviously bad, but not on the level of cloud, fox, or pikachu.

What makes Pikachu such bad a mu for DH?

 

[DunnoBro]

What makes Pikachu such bad a mu for DH?

Neutral's hard and edgeguarding is free.

Tjolt covers jump, and can then DH is forced to recover low which is super free for bair. And with no hitbox, even with god-tier teching QA/Nair finish things up.

Neutral isn't as hard as say vs fox, or cloud. But it's enough that pikachu will get more than enough attempts to edgeguard.

 

[chaos11011]

Neutral's hard and edgeguarding is free.

Tjolt covers jump, and can then DH is forced to recover low which is super free for bair. And with no hitbox, even with god-tier teching QA/Nair finish things up.

Neutral isn't as hard as say vs fox, or cloud. But it's enough that pikachu will get more than enough attempts to edgeguard.

Basically this. I have regular practice with a Pikachu in my region and the match up is essentially me camping RIGHT in front of Can (to prevent it from being TJolted, Can punishes Quick Attacks if I shield, protects me from shield grabs) and throwing SH FAirs when I think he's going to poke with FAir.


But once we leave neutral, it's rough.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

What are the thoughts on these days?

 

[Frihetsanka]

What are the thoughts on these days?

Still top 10.

 

[Yonder]

What are the thoughts on these days?

In a nutshell, Sheik with a worse neutral in exchange for better killpower. Grab endlag balances with d throw u air up b ladders that are still effective. Get out of jail free card with down b still works for disadvantage.

Still a top 5-10 character.


Oh, afterthought, I officially hate Lucina now. What a sad case of bandwagoning. Either that or mocking Zero, at least Cloud made more sense as a pocket. Ugh.

Spoiler

Shoulda been a Doctor Mario bandwagoning

 

[Das Koopa]

What are the thoughts on these days?

comically underrated, I think she's top 5

 

[Nemesis561]

In a nutshell, Sheik with a worse neutral in exchange for better killpower. Grab endlag balances with d throw u air up b ladders that are still effective. Get out of jail free card with down b still works for disadvantage.

Still a top 5-10 character.


Oh, afterthought, I officially hate Lucina now. What a sad case of bandwagoning. Either that or mocking Zero, at least Cloud made more sense as a pocket. Ugh.

Spoiler

Shoulda been a Doctor Mario bandwagoning

I kind of have a similar sentiment about the big upswing in Lucina usage, I wouldn't say hate but let's just say Its making a Lucina seem a little more stale lol. Although it makes perfect sense she is a very intuitive and quick to pick up character who rewards players with great fundamentals. That's NOT to say she's easy to play, she isn't but she is a great secondary choice.

 

[FeelMeUp]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...L-0pBIOC7MUF6Ho1jAshwwaCY/edit#gid=1377094698

This spreadsheet is not done yet, but I'd like to get some of the information out as soon as possible. Here is the current list of characters Down Throw > Uair is still a 50/50 on with no rage. Due to the nerf that makes characters get sent further after a Down Throw and the discovery of cross up Up Air, most of these kill %s will be significantly earlier than pre-patch. Town and City percents will be put on the left while Final Destination percents will be on the right. If there is no FD % on the sheet but you notice a white space, assume it has yet to be tested and will be updated within the next week or two.
112-125 / 121-125
102-110
134-140
97-106
116-148
125-174(!!!)
116-130(!)
115-137
102-105
118-127
138-180+(!)
106-120 / 111-120
102-117
122-136
110-116
118-127
123-139
119-142 [Assuming this is non-Limit]
115-122
At the moment, everyone still believes you can escape freely with DI away and jump. As a result, Dthrow at these % ranges will guarantee death until people wisen up.

 

[L9999]

Oh, afterthought, I officially hate Lucina now. What a sad case of bandwagoning. Either that or mocking Zero, at least Cloud made more sense as a pocket. Ugh.

How is it bandwagoning when Nairo, Mr E, and many others have tried Lucina before ZeRo picked her up? I actually like that Lucina is seeing more love this days, it feels satisfying after all the bull**** lies about her that were parroted for ages and all the poorly thought arguments against her viability.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

it feels satisfying after all the bull**** lies about her that were parroted for ages.

What lies?