Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[Minordeth]

To be fair, it makes a sense to have a different approach here. While - at least from what I've been told - you can SDI in a manner that ensures Bayo can never kill you from a conversion, people will still get caught since they have to react to everything perfectly. Bayo can also mix up how she gets to the end goal.

Comparatively, Sheik is already struggling due to a lack of kill options. Uair conversion s are how she gets a good number of kills. You take that away, and then what? She doesn't have a strong bair, or a stock cap throw, and barely has good Smash attacks.

If you SDI Bayo's main combo starters (correctly), it's not just that she can't kill you off the top, she either can't get anything or has to guess. It's not a complete shut down, but it definitely neuters her power.

I don't really buy that Sheik has that hard a time killing, at least any more than Bayo, who is reduced to Bair fishing if she can't seal a stock. Sheik has plenty of kill set ups. You'll notice Sheiks have been incorporating even F-smash to seal stocks. But, and this is important, when your top 10 rep still goes for grabs instead of just a straight Usmash or Fsmash at kill percent, that's not really Sheiks fault.

Edit: I noticed both Void and especially Mr. R grabbing when Usmash would have killed this last weekend. Void is doing better at seemingly retraining himself to go for the throat - and not autopilot - more consistently, but Mr. R has always struggled with kill options if he can't get you off the ledge.

 

[verbatim]

Edit: I noticed both Void and especially Mr. R grabbing when Usmash would have killed this last weekend.

This is a thing with a lot of players in general.

Sometimes incredible tech skill and sdi mixups isn't as applicable as simply knowing when you can fsmash someone for messing up.

At the same time, if an opponent air dodges into the groud at 90-100% center stage, where most of the top tiers can kill with a raw move, Sheik might actually end up just having to go for a grab follow up because that's the best that she can do at that point.

 

[Heracr055]

Just wanted to highlight this: Salem tweeted today that ZSS could be the second best character in the game. His reasoning is that ZSS can avoid damage and that her only real risk, "accuracy," is player dependent. And Dabuz mentioned the possible merit of timeout ZSS as a strategy that could work out (Edit: think Dabuz was joking in hindsight lol)
I know we shouldn't place complete trust in a top player's opinion. However, it could serve as an interesting discussion.

 

[Minordeth]

ZSS will never be the second best character in the game. She has no rising aerials, all her ground buttons are unsafe, and she has a tether grab that she has to rely on. Her main safe neutral tool is a descending aerial that has to be precisely spaced. Nairo gets around this because he is probably the best CQC player in the game and is suuuper good at pressuring you into situations where you think you have to act. He instills the fear, basically.

Salem is wrong when he says her only real risk is "accuracy." Her main risk is that she has to leave the ground to get something started. Once players start developing the anti-air game a bit more, she's gonna have to be reaaaallly careful.

Don't get me wrong though, because she is a ridiculous character.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Just wanted to highlight this: Salem tweeted today that ZSS could be the second best character in the game. His reasoning is that ZSS can avoid damage and that her only real risk, "accuracy," is player dependent. And Dabuz mentioned the possible merit of timeout ZSS as a strategy that could work out (Edit: think Dabuz was joking in hindsight lol)
I know we shouldn't place complete trust in a top player's opinion. However, it could serve as an interesting discussion.

Well, lets not get crazy here. It is true there are ZSS is overrated and not even top 10. #2 in the game may be overselling her just a wee bit..

ZSS is solidly #6-8 range. Which is where ZeRo and Dabuz put her in their own most recent tier lists

 

[FeelMeUp]

Don't forget she has what is most likely the worst OoS game of the entire top tier, some of the worst grounded boxing options of any half-decent character, and an incredibly hard time trying to whiff punish low lag high-ish range aerials(Ness fair, Cloud everything, Ryu bair, etc)
There is no reason to respect her shield centerstage below 100%, her recovery is poop once you memorize a flowchart of stripping her options away (similar to edgeguarding Fox but more complex), she's one of the most marred characters by not being able to grab ledge ~54 frames after being hit, and her ladders are incredibly specific on most of the cast on non DL/BF stages without extremely high amounts of rage.
I'm still BAFFLED at the thought that people can look at this character's tools and not realize it's Nairo/Marss playing out of their minds and overcoming a bunch of **** matchups.
zss sucks

 

[Skeeter Mania]

ZSS will never be the second best character in the game.

But it's Salem's opeenion, m8!

 

[Minordeth]

Also, saying she is "dependent on accuracy and patience" literally applies to every character in Smash 4. Yes, even Bayo. Like, Ganon is "dependent on accuracy and patience" to succeed. It's a non-argument.

 

[Heracr055]

Ganon doesn't have the speed, frame advantage, recovery options, combo/death strings and strong disadvantage that ZSS has. Your latter argument is a slippery slope argument.
She doesn't really need to force anything honestly. She can engage and evade whenever she needs to. So the spaced nair game mentioned isn't required for success. Her insane movement options, combined with patience, can throw off the opponent into making a mistake and leads to those infamous ZSS combos and kill setups.
I put her at 6th imo

 

[Hippieslayer]

How do you render her recovery poop exactly?

 

[Ziodyne 21]

How do you render her recovery poop exactly?

Lol no kdding when the genral consenus os ZSS recovery is or near top-tier.

No offense to you FeeMeUp , but your comments just sounds like a salty triade on how ZSS is starting to go back and forth now with Sheik at top level, a character that has a superior neutral and apparently sucj a big advantage in the MU

Also that post-patch ZSS has won 2 or 3 supermajora now while Post-Patch Sheik has yet to win one

Don't get me wrong Sheik is still an amazing character that is Top Tier for Sure . I just can understand how anyome cannot say that ZSS is not top 10 material at least with all she has accomplished as well

 

[Minordeth]

Ganon doesn't have the speed, frame advantage, recovery options, combo/death strings and strong disadvantage that ZSS has. Your latter argument is a slippery slope argument.
She doesn't really need to force anything honestly. She can engage and evade whenever she needs to. So the spaced nair game mentioned isn't required for success. Her insane movement options, combined with patience, can throw off the opponent into making a mistake and leads to those infamous ZSS combos and kill setups.
I put her at 6th imo

That's not a slippery slope fallacy that I'm making. If anything it's closer to a reductio ad absurdum. Regardless, the point isn't to directly compare tools, but to attack a vague and general statement, which Salem's absolutely is. Even with worse tools, Ganon requires accuracy and patience to do well. Like every other character.

Finally, I'm not making an argument that ZSS has to force anything, the point is is that when she has to engage her tools to approach or combo require commitment that other top tiers do not require.

She absolutely needs spaced Nair or Zair to get something started. You are essentially making an argument that she can capitalize on the others players mistakes to win, and that's a problem, because you can't base how good a character is based on how bad their opponents could play.

It's why Nairo despises the Sheik MU, because if they play the MU right, he can't get anything started, which is my point.

I'm not saying ZSS is trash. She's really good. My contention is Salem's actual arguments and the idea that she is second best in the game. If he argued she was sixth or seventh, I probably couldn't be asked to care.

But it's Salem's opeenion, m8!

Lol. I get it.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Also that post-patch ZSS has won 2 or 3 supermajora

I counted two, both of the recent Smash Cons.

I'm not saying ZSS is trash. She's really good. My contention is Salem's actual arguments and the idea that she is second best in the game. If he argued she was sixth or seventh, I probably couldn't be asked to care.

Harkening back to not just his discussion on Sheik's losing MUs (as well as ZeRo's Diddy MU chart), I think it's pretty clear that the very best put a huge emphasis on characters with X-Factors and tend to downplay those that don't.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

I counted two, both of the recent Smash Cons.



Harkening back to not just his discussion on Sheik's losing MUs (as well as ZeRo's Diddy MU chart), I think it's pretty clear that the very best put a huge emphasis on characters with X-Factors and tend to downplay those that don't.

Also Nario won at Momocon 2017

 

[Vyrnx]

I don't have time to make a page long post again even though there's a lot I disagree with, but I can quickly point out that Choco has gotten 3rd at every Japanese major he's attended this year. So it's not just Nairo and Marss.

 

[Heracr055]

Not to mention Anti's success using her as a secondary in a few recent tourneys iirc
Also nothing personal Minordeth

 

[MERPIS]

How do you render her recovery poop exactly?

remove her double jump or hit her out of zair/upb

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Also Nario won at Momocon 2017

True, but that wasn't an S tier.

 

[FeelMeUp]

How do you render her recovery poop exactly?

Depends on where she recovers from. Generally, if Zero Suit gets sent decently far and you have a character with medium to high aerial mobility and a strong lingering aerial(to name a few) you can hit her out of the tether as she latches onto the ledge and force her to either burn a jump, drift low and Boost Kick up, or immediately Flip Jump.
2/3 of these choices get covered by the exact same option, which is doing the same aerial again.
If I'm playing Mario and I hit ZSS out of her tether, I can read either the jump or Flip Jump input and input a second nair right after the first as long as the first didn't connect with the early part of the late hit.
Players that employ this strategy well are ESAM, Salem, and VoiD.

Once ZSS is hit out of her tether and has no jump slightly below stage-lip height, she has no strong means to make it back. Flip Jump's active frames where it forces Kick and doesn't allow you to do anything else last so long that you will almost always die if you cannot rebound off a wall before you plummet too far for Boost Kick to grab ledge.

A decent flowchart would be something like:
Cover Tether/Flip Jump > Cover Tether/Flip Jump > Stagespike/Ledge trump Boost Kick
In certain positions she is forced to commit to Boost Kick or tether regardless of how many options she has left, similar to how Fox players get forced to Firefox or Illusion at certain heights/spacings.

The 54 frame thing I mentioned is so bad because she CANNOT tether to ledge immediately after getting hit. On top of that, Boost Kick will almost always push you past ledge to the point where the opponent can hit you after the final kick comes out. If you misjudge how long it has been since you got hit and try to tether, you will usually die because of how laggy side B is.

I'll show some examples. Obviously using Sheik, because I know her options best:
https://youtu.be/fJLoRm0yVss?t=11m37s
VoiD covers the jump+Flip Jump, goes for a read on the tether timing but Nairo chooses to Boost Kick from below instead. Despite VoiD guessing wrong he takes no meaningful damage and keeps Nairo on the ledge.

https://youtu.be/fJLoRm0yVss?t=12m59s
Nairo DI's bthrow correctly and gets sent at that perfect height where ZSS players tether or Flip Jump. VoiD goes for a hard read with a Gliding Vanish on the tether and Nairo dies at 90.

https://youtu.be/M2DWew0cIHM?t=1m48s
VoiD covers the Flip Jump off ledge, covers the airdodge > Boost Kick low, then covers the tether and kills Marss.
There are other videos of Salem and ESAM straight up killing Nairo and Marss off stripping Zero Suit's options away one by one, but I don't care to look through them at the moment.

Lol no kdding when the genral consenus os ZSS recovery is or near top-tier.

No offense to you FeeMeUp , but your comments just sounds like a salty triade on how ZSS is starting to go back and forth now with Sheik at top level, a character that has a superior neutral and apparently sucj a big advantage in the MU

Also that post-patch ZSS has won 2 or 3 supermajora now while Post-Patch Sheik has yet to win one

Don't get me wrong Sheik is still an amazing character that is Top Tier for Sure . I just can understand how anyome cannot say that ZSS is not top 10 material at least with all she has accomplished as well

6:4 matchups are still winnable and you can still **** on people that are heavily favoured to beat you.
i'm saying this because a bunch of people see results from a character without understanding what happened.

also, for the record. I play Sheik/ZSS exclusively, so I love to see both characters doing well at any level of play
if you want to call me out, make sure you know what you're talking about

 

[Galaxeon]

remove her double jump or hit her out of zair/upb

Please let's stop using "zair" when talking about ZSS recovery. Especially when you're trying to prove how it's poop.

Also even Bayo without double jump has a worst recovery than ZSS without double jump imo. Does that make Bayo not-the best character in the game in the recovery area? Of course not. I get why we do this, but sometimes there's no point in comparing jumpless recoveries when you first have to deal with a tether recovery that denies 2-frames, can be cancelled and reset three times, an up special with huge hitboxes that is pretty difficult to challenge, and an invincible down B with two spiking hitboxes, one so ridiculously big and powerful it beats almost everything. Recovery is about options, removing one or two out of thin air can only prove something up to a point.

A decent flowchart would be something like:
Cover Tether/Flip Jump > Cover Tether/Flip Jump > Stagespike/Ledge trump Boost Kick
In certain positions she is forced to commit to Boost Kick or tether regardless of how many options she has left, similar to how Fox players get forced to Firefox or Illusion at certain heights/spacings.

I disagree. Her recovery is nowhere as linear as this. Every char is "forced" to use some recovery option eventually and comparing Fox's two options - one always needing to come out before the other - with the four different buttons ZSS can press and the dozens of mix-ups can do with them, is not fair.
Covering both flip jump and tether is already borderline impossible for most characters, or specific to rare situations and moves that send at a very low angle at very high percents. Adding the timing into consideration makes it even more difficult and can mess the whole thing up especially considering specific invicibility frames are there.
Ledge trump has nothing to do with going back to the stage and is an entire other area of choices and mix-ups which in theory just resets the edgeguard situation since it gives back every option lost (and most of all : it's not easy trumping an UpB like that).

As for the clips: in the first one Void made like 3 good reads/decisions (not always offstage... but anyway) and got rid of Nairo's Jump AND flip kick and still didn't manage to edgeguard him. And with actually one of the best characters at edgeguarding in the game... sure he got away with his attempts but... shouldn't Nairo rather be the one glad to get away with the whole exchange?
In the third one Marss made a very bad early decision from the ledge to burn both a jump AND her down special (there's almost no reason to do that) and was at percents so high he went bouncing from one side of the stage to the other, he just paid the price. Like even Bayo wouldn't have survived that.
The second one was an excellent read which proves it's possible to edgeguard her when you have the correct tools. Tools such as, for a start: being able to go deep because you're going to commit a lot, being very quick at recoverying yourself because you're probably going to have to get back to it quickly and make several attemps, having aerials and specials that can cover all directions including high and low recoveries, aerials with ideally a quick start-up and long-lasting hitboxes... That's a LOT of criterias that probably around 3 characters in the game fit or maybe a bit more?

Of course you can sometimes edgeguard her. You can edgeguard every character in the game. Marth can edgeguard Bayonetta pretty easily on paper. Does it happen every game? Not even close because her options and mix-ups and distance are crazy to beging with. If even top Cloud players can mix up their single bad recovery move to survive way too many situations where they could have died...
I don't know, I just feel people should stop worrying about challenging a character with a top 10 (at least) best recovery in the game and focus more on options on the ledge, where in my opinion (talking about a more general subject here) it's perhaps a bit less rewarding but extremly more linear, less risky to play the guessing and reacting game here. I feel there's more potential to optimize traps and stuff there. For example I still see Salem let go of the ledge, side B away and witch twist back on a smashville platform, landing with lag, while his opponent stands there watching the scene.

Also, ZSS is clearly not top 2 but it's interesting hearing Salem's opinions, he backed some of them up in the past (Bayo being the best, Sonic being arguably bad against Bayo) and I would love to see more of his unusual defensive ZSS in action (less than seeing his Greninja though)

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Aside from Salem putting ZSS at #2 ( whoxh yea is a vit to high) ZeRo and Dabuz both put ZSS in the #6 spit in thier own recent tier lists


Not saying their opinions should be taken as 100% truth. But when you have arguablly the "best Smash 4 player" and the "Smartest Smash 4 player" rank her that high respectively. ZSS has to have enough going her .

 

[MERPIS]

Please let's stop using "zair" when talking about ZSS recovery. Especially when you're trying to prove how it's poop.

Also even Bayo without double jump has a worst recovery than ZSS without double jump imo. Does that make Bayo not-the best character in the game in the recovery area? Of course not. I get why we do this, but sometimes there's no point in comparing jumpless recoveries when you first have to deal with a tether recovery that denies 2-frames, can be cancelled and reset three times, an up special with huge hitboxes that is pretty difficult to challenge, and an invincible down B with two spiking hitboxes, one so ridiculously big and powerful it beats almost everything. Recovery is about options, removing one or two out of thin air can only prove something up to a point.



I disagree. Her recovery is nowhere as linear as this. Every char is "forced" to use some recovery option eventually and comparing Fox's two options - one always needing to come out before the other - with the four different buttons ZSS can press and the dozens of mix-ups can do with them, is not fair.
Covering both flip jump and tether is already borderline impossible for most characters, or specific to rare situations and moves that send at a very low angle at very high percents. Adding the timing into consideration makes it even more difficult and can mess the whole thing up especially considering specific invicibility frames are there.
Ledge trump has nothing to do with going back to the stage and is an entire other area of choices and mix-ups which in theory just resets the edgeguard situation since it gives back every option lost (and most of all : it's not easy trumping an UpB like that).

As for the clips: in the first one Void made like 3 good reads/decisions (not always offstage... but anyway) and got rid of Nairo's Jump AND flip kick and still didn't manage to edgeguard him. And with actually one of the best characters at edgeguarding in the game... sure he got away with his attempts but... shouldn't Nairo rather be the one glad to get away with the whole exchange?
In the third one Marss made a very bad early decision from the ledge to burn both a jump AND her down special (there's almost no reason to do that) and was at percents so high he went bouncing from one side of the stage to the other, he just paid the price. Like even Bayo wouldn't have survived that.
The second one was an excellent read which proves it's possible to edgeguard her when you have the correct tools. Tools such as, for a start: being able to go deep because you're going to commit a lot, being very quick at recoverying yourself because you're probably going to have to get back to it quickly and make several attemps, having aerials and specials that can cover all directions including high and low recoveries, aerials with ideally a quick start-up and long-lasting hitboxes... That's a LOT of criterias that probably around 3 characters in the game fit or maybe a bit more?

Of course you can sometimes edgeguard her. You can edgeguard every character in the game. Marth can edgeguard Bayonetta pretty easily on paper. Does it happen every game? Not even close because her options and mix-ups and distance are crazy to beging with. If even top Cloud players can mix up their single bad recovery move to survive way too many situations where they could have died...
I don't know, I just feel people should stop worrying about challenging a character with a top 10 (at least) best recovery in the game and focus more on options on the ledge, where in my opinion (talking about a more general subject here) it's perhaps a bit less rewarding but extremly more linear, less risky to play the guessing and reacting game here. I feel there's more potential to optimize traps and stuff there. For example I still see Salem let go of the ledge, side B away and witch twist back on a smashville platform, landing with lag, while his opponent stands there watching the scene.

Also, ZSS is clearly not top 2 but it's interesting hearing Salem's opinions, he backed some of them up in the past (Bayo being the best, Sonic being arguably bad against Bayo) and I would love to see more of his unusual defensive ZSS in action (less than seeing his Greninja though)

tl:ldr zair is crap and can be gimped

 

[Rizen]

Although doesn't have a traditionally good OoS game she has a frame 1 jab, 8 on shield drop. IMO she's 6-9th best.

It's completely possible for a ZSS player to remove any "risk" involved in landing boost kick OOS. This is the case for any character's OOS option if the player knows they have a frame advantage, knows their move will connect, etc, there is no guessing involved. Something I argued over in the past (and something I was wrong about) was that Link's up b oos isn't really that good because "what if the Link player misses and is stuck in endlag"... If an opponent misspaces a move (sometimes even slightly), then the situation is easily reactable for the player in shield and they can be guaranteed a punish. If not, then they won't use the move. There never actually has to be guessing (or risk) involved, especially the more the player knows about frame data. The same incorrect argument over Link's up b oos is often applied to other up B's like Super Jump Punch, Screw Attack, and Boost Kick, that these options OOS are "overrated" because if the player misses, they will be punished. This argument completely hinges on the theory that the player will miss these moves, which is a scenario that can be avoided. A player can guarantee that options OOS will hit.

.

CF can shield 's ground upB and Falcon punch, lol. It hits once and the FAF is 82 . But like you said Link shouldn't use it without a confirm. I've been warming up to ground spin attack lately. It's basically a frame 8 Dsmash that can be used out of dash to punish landings, OoS, and Link can confirm jab2 or Bair1>land into it at kill %s.

Amazing.

*Video shows in-depth how to shut down most Bayo options, including Witch Twist, with SDI*
People: it's not practical, she can still do stuff, it looked tough even in the video!

*Video shows someone SDI'ing out of Sheik Uair*
People: Sheik's dead.

I think the SDI thing for sheik is being blown out of proportion. Sheik needs a clean Uair hit, not scraping the edge, but I don't think the SDI is a consistent escape in real games.

's hitbubbles are freaking HUGE; upB beat's Link's Dair. Her Uair is like Ganon's in size. She doesn't have cut and paste combos all the time but always has a strong advantage state. She can side/upB twice and doesn't freefall. Watch game 2 of Raito vs Captain Zach. Raito does escape several times but can't punish Bayo. Then at 5:52 bayo side Bs out of a disadvantaged state, combos a few times, drops for a split second as a read, and proceeds to kill off the top with upB>Uair. This is the true potential of Bayo. She doesn't need 100% true combos when she can turn disadvantage into an easy read and react kill chain off the top at almost any %. She also has Fair with optional hits and the best recovery in the game for side kills.

 

[The-Technique]

tl:ldr zair is crap and can be gimped

I wanna know what ZSS players you've been edgeguarding cuz they sound pretty free tbh

 

[NairWizard]

tl:ldr zair is crap and can be gimped

Do you ever actually contribute anything of value to this topic? Honestly, enough. Over half of your posts are useless. Drop the sarcasm and bitterness and actually post some analysis, or stop posting, if you would be so kind. I try to enjoy my reading here.

 

[Locke 06]

Endlag doesn't matter if you hit, but punishing things with up-B OoS, up-smash OoS, or turnaround X can be difficult.

If Fox crossup DAirs Megaman's shield, it's -7 after shield drop. He can punish with his turnaround uptilt (7f), but he could also be a single frame late with his uptilt after the turnaround since it is an action that cannot be buffered. This situation is similar to a lot of up-B/up-smash OoS punishes because the moves themselves can't be buffered out of shield stun and there's no visual cue for when shield stun ends.

Being able to make mistakes and not die for them is an attribute of a good character. For example, instead of having Link's up-B oos, you could have Mario's upsmash oos which is significantly safer if you are that 1f late.

 

[MERPIS]

Do you ever actually contribute anything of value to this topic? Honestly, enough. Over half of your posts are useless. Drop the sarcasm and bitterness and actually post some analysis, or stop posting, if you would be so kind. I try to enjoy my reading here.

cri moar

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

Hippieslayer
When you corrected my post, how do you think I should have re-worded my question without sounding crazy and mean?

Shulk makes me sad. Spends the whole fight flinging around an apparently very heavy pool noodle whilst pressing the B button more times that Duck Hunt, only for his opponent to casually walk up to him, powershield, then juggle and tech chase him for the rest of his stock cause he can't escape except by jumping.

This may sound counterproductive, but Shulk can switch to Smash Art to increase his knockback while being juggled to create space between him and his opponent.

This can help him recover to the ledge if he so chooses to or it can break up a juggle confirm or combo that may have been true for the opponent depending on Shulk's current percent.

He can do a similar tactic with Shield Art which will decrease his damage received (which affects knockback) and hitstun.

Another option, I have seen some Shulk players use is an aerial backslash once they switch to Shield Art. This can allow them to fall like a boulder to the stage as a "get out of jail free card" from monopoly even though they can be punished once they land.

Since they are in Shield Art, hopefully the punish the opponent deals, if they reach Shulk in time, will not be too hard on him after the strange choice he made.

EDIT: I left this out in my last post but a charged down smash (sweetspot needs to hit which is right next to Shulk) in Buster Art near the ledge or a platform can lead into a true shield stun to shield break combo[?] from the first hit of Shulk's down smash.

Also F-smash in Buster Art is another great grounded tool for breaking shields.

So is Back Slash; since the move adds a free +10 damage when hitting shields. So if one were in Buster Art, and hit an opponent with the "back" hit of Back Slash, a lot of shield damage can be done in a single blow.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Can I add something new to the table?

Dabuz just released his new Rosalina MU chart!

pic.twitter.com/hw0zcWLL0e

— Liquid | Dabuz (@DabuzSenpai) October 10, 2017

 

[TDK]

cri moar

I have to ask: What's your goal when posting here? To piss off people as much as possible? Because you don't contribute and all of your posts just scream salt or troll.

So this post isn't useless:

I think we're reaching a point where the top ~10 can be quantified into a few groups based on ability and results. Those groups would be, imo:

ll ll ll

Ordered alphabetically within groups.

The top 4 is fairly standard at this point, there's some argument to be made for Rosa up or Sheik down, but in general it seems that those four characters define the meta to a level more than the others. Rosa's better than the other top tiers below her by a fair margin but at the same time I'm not sure if she's with the others yet, which leads to this weird middle thing. We've seen multiple different Rosas prove it time and time again, though. This character is top 5. Fox/Sonic/ZSS are all also really good, but are overall less consistent as characters for a few reasons, such as a lacking neutral or extremely exploitable disadvantage. Mario and Mewtwo are on their way out and I can't see them getting better from here.

Also, enough with this "(Character) sucks because they get no results without (Their best player)". Unless you're, like, Bayo or Cloud every character in the game is reliant on 1-3 players.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

I edited my post.

 

[RonNewcomb]

This may sound counterproductive, but Shulk can switch to Smash Art to increase his knockback while being juggled to create space between him and his opponent.

This can help him recover to the ledge if he so chooses to or it can break up a juggle confirm or combo that may have been true for the opponent depending on Shulk's current percent.

He can do a similar tactic with Shield Art which will decrease his damage received (which affects knockback) and hitstun.

Another option, I have seen some Shulk players use is an aerial backslash once they switch to Shield Art. This can allow them to fall like a boulder to the stage as a "get out of jail free card" from monopoly even though they can be punished once they land.

Since they are in Shield Art, hopefully the punish the opponent deals, if they reach Shulk in time, will not be too hard on him after the strange choice he made.

EDIT: I left this out in my last post but a charged down smash (sweetspot needs to hit which is right next to Shulk) in Buster Art near the ledge or a platform can lead into a true shield stun to shield break combo[?] from the first hit of Shulk's down smash.

Also F-smash in Buster Art is another great grounded tool for breaking shields.

So is Back Slash; since the move adds a free +10 damage when hitting shields. So if one were in Buster Art, and hit an opponent with the "back" hit of Back Slash, a lot of shield damage can be done in a single blow.

I was about to ask if backslash had any use. I don't think it has startup iframes or anything to actually help with combo escapes. It doesn't snap to ledge either. And how often does one attack someone's back in a duel?

I saw one player who began his stock in Shield art because it made his opponent's low% strings unsafe on hit.

I love the tactics, but the character seems so underwhelming even with them.

 

[MercuryPenny]

why do people place shiek in the same tier as characters winning majors consistently

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

From what I have seeb and heard a little bit from Shulk Discord, is that backslash is tgat some players use back slash as an airdodge punish.

Others throw it out at random to mix things up for their opponent to keep them guessing or as a long range ground attack.

In my experience I died to backslash in a wifi match before due to my over use of wavebounce PSI Magnet in the air to bait attacks vs a member of Shulk Discord and he just so happened to use backslash in the air which caught me by surprise and I was laughing.

Another interesting use for Shield Art is if Mewtwo forward throw's a Shield Art Shulk, he will fall to the ground before the rest of the Shadow Balls hit and punish his forward throw!

I find that incredible.

Edit: Vision can be used to punish and take stocks in high risk, panic situations (think like super high percents and players are on their last stock) where opponents jump around and throw out aerials, smash attacks, or chargeable projectiles.

Kamui (Corrin) can due the same thing with their counter. I guess there is a stigma among some players or some players think it is too risky to even attempt.

I think it can work after watching streams with Ally, Zero, and other notable players.
I think they fish for kill moves a lot. In games where I see a Kamui or a Shulk player die to a move where I think they could have countered and won instead of rolling, airdodging, shielding, running, or using other methods to try and avoid the attack and punish.

I feel like I could get away with this due to reaction/anticipation of certain moves and I believe other players could too if they did not write off their counter moves so fast.

It might take a player to popularize the method on stream to get others to try it out.

 

[Lord Dio]

Ordered alphabetically within groups.

*looks at list*
sure TDK, suuuuuuuure XD

Also, I have to ask the Gren mains, what are your thoughts on the dabuz list? Gren rosa is even according to him and I'd like some explanations because I wasn't really expecting to see that.

 

[TDK]

*looks at list*
sure TDK, suuuuuuuure XD

Also, I have to ask the Gren mains, what are your thoughts on the dabuz list? Gren rosa is even according to him and I'd like some explanations because I wasn't really expecting to see that.

No, I meant within the mini-groups they're ordered alphabetically. Happens to be almost the exact same as my personal list but that's neither here nor there

I, too, would like to ask the frogs here what they think of Gren-Rosa being even, since I've only played the matchup once so I can't give insight.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Can I add something new to the table?

Dabuz just released his new Rosalina MU chart!

pic.twitter.com/hw0zcWLL0e

— Liquid | Dabuz (@DabuzSenpai) October 10, 2017

I don't know what I should think on this. I can't be positive if zard is or isn't 6:4 on rosa because he has an easy way to get rid of luma but that's assuming rosa seperates herself and luma. And even if zard gets rid of luma he can't really catch up to rosa's air mobility......any rosa players want to chime in to offer a better in-depth analysis because mine is pretty shallow and inconclusive.

 

[|RK|]

If you SDI Bayo's main combo starters (correctly), it's not just that she can't kill you off the top, she either can't get anything or has to guess. It's not a complete shut down, but it definitely neuters her power.

I don't really buy that Sheik has that hard a time killing, at least any more than Bayo, who is reduced to Bair fishing if she can't seal a stock. Sheik has plenty of kill set ups. You'll notice Sheiks have been incorporating even F-smash to seal stocks. But, and this is important, when your top 10 rep still goes for grabs instead of just a straight Usmash or Fsmash at kill percent, that's not really Sheiks fault.

Edit: I noticed both Void and especially Mr. R grabbing when Usmash would have killed this last weekend. Void is doing better at seemingly retraining himself to go for the throat - and not autopilot - more consistently, but Mr. R has always struggled with kill options if he can't get you off the ledge.

Bayo is unquestionably weakened with proper SDI - but it is more than one move people are looking out for against her. And yeah, Bayo does struggle to kill if she can't get those combos to do work for her.

But Sheik - for all of her varied kill setups - still tends to struggle. Fsmash is a solid option... but sometimes, it just... doesn't work. Which is exactly why people don't use it as much. Usmash has its own issues in terms of precision and endlag, so no one wants to just throw either out. These are moves Sheik players appear to be resorting to because of a lack of setups - not because they're amazing. Grabbing is easier to condition, safer, and can lead into edgeguard/ledgetrapping situations that ultimately kill.

From everything I've gathered, I feel like Sheik players would easily give up their smash attacks to be able to fish for bair like Bayo. And/or throw kills.

 

[PK Bash]

re ZSS
Ness should not be able to rely on f-air as a safe zoning tool in this matchup. It's too easy to react to and on whiff it is a pretty free grab for ZSS. (Ness can't viably mix up his timing on landing out of short hop f-air due to a very narrow autocancel window. He'd have to burn jump, which you generally don't want to do for the sake of f-air.) If it whiffs but goes unpunished, it's because the ZSS is simply pushing buttons and/or isn't ready for it.
PKT is a very good tool for limiting ZSS' recovery. for example https://youtu.be/n_FUqwtOr8U?t=51s Shaky here uses the PKT to force Nairo into an airdodge tether by covering low jump and up B, and high tether/high down B. Going off with nair or something to prevent tether snaps does work, but it's a mixup at it's core and it has a lot of workarounds. Do it too much and they'll just start going high and then the situation is inversed.
(yes I know Nairo vs Shaky is 6+ months old but it's still pretty relevant and it shows what I want to say)

re Dabuz matchup chart.
Ness placement has surprised people but it's not unreasonable. I think Dabuz might be underestimating Rosa's advantage state as a whole vs Ness (esp with Luma), but the people massively surprised by the placement overestimate the power of Grav Pull. Ness wins by getting Rosalina offstage or trapped in the corner. In these situations the matchup looks and plays massively lopsided the other way.
Here's a very fresh set: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jlAfsUw7A0
Maybe not the best example, and I'm sure someone will dismiss it because it's not two top players (they really shouldn't) but I really like it. Not only is it fresh off the press, it illustrates a lot of important dynamics in the matchup and how each character is able to substantially reduce and limit the other's options in any common situation, and some workarounds, what can go wrong, Luma interactions, things like that. It's definitely a good set to watch to get to grips with the broad strokes of how Ness:Rosa should be played, and to understand why the mu isn't as free for Rosalina as some people believe.

 

[Bowserboy3]

On ZSS's recovery, are we seriously trying to prove that it's not actually that good? Omfg what have we come to...

So what if you can strip her recovery options down one after another. That's still 4 options you've got to strip ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) from her, as opposed to most characters where you've got 2 to work on, ones that are usually far more linear and harder to predict/mix up at that. It's still far and away more options that almost every character, and thus, still superior.

Also, remember ZSS is the only character that can tether with a move, being her Side B. This effectively means she can be facing away from the ledge and still tether. This is a big deal because it means she can freely use Flip Jump off stage to get her that extra distance. No other character can do this.

With Flip Jump, note that if, say, ZSS, from facing left, Flip Jumps towards the left, when she lands she'll be facing the opposite way; towards the right. If she's recovering to the ledge in the same manner, and wants to tether after using that, without Side B, she'd be unable to. Let's put Flip Jump on Samus's Down B for a moment while keeping all her other moves the same; in the same situation, Samus wouldn't be able to tether to the ledge because she doesn't have that Side B.

It's also useful for certain throws. For example, Marth's Back Throw doesn't turn a character around when they are thrown off stage; if I grab (for the sake of argument, I'll use a character with a tether, but this works for any character) Samus while facing left, with my back to near the ledge and can Back Throw her off stage, I'll do that because she's then forced to recover with Up B, because she's facing the wrong way to tether to the ledge. It forces her into a predictable position which I can attempt to edgeguard easier.

If I did the same against ZSS, it doesn't matter in the slightest; not only can she just Side B towards the ledge, she could also Flip Jump back over me if she wanted (granted, it's a potential punish, but it's there).

Some food for thought for y'all.