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Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

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PGH_Chrispy

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Hope R! (43 Entrants, MDVA?) https://smash.gg/tournament/hope-r-...t-tension/events/wii-u-singles/brackets/81832

1st: Tension :4fox:
2nd: Seagull Joe :4sonic:
3rd: Colinies :4fox:
4th: Midnight :4lucario: (Possibly :4greninja: :rosalina: as well)
Note: IcyMist :4samus: dropped out of the tournament due to health reasons.
Hope R was PGH/NEOH, but you wouldn't know it from looking at the results haha. Seagull Joe also used Diddy (definitely in Grand Finals, maybe more), and Midnight used both Rosa and Greninja in his games against Colonies.

EDIT: oh yeah, and Colonies used Ryu against Seagull Joe
 
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Nobie

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I find it funny that Earth's characters are this thread's current poster childs for "results don't support theory" (Corrin) and "good results despite lackluster theory" (Pit).
 

Seagull Joe

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Hope R! (43 Entrants, PGH/NEOH) https://smash.gg/tournament/hope-r-...t-tension/events/wii-u-singles/brackets/81832

1st: Tension :4fox: :4ryu:
2nd: Seagull Joe :4sonic: :4diddy::4cloud:
3rd: Colinies :4fox:
4th: Midnight :4lucario: :4greninja: :rosalina:
Fixed since Tension used :4ryu: and I won a game with :4cloud: in GF.
Hope R was PGH/NEOH, but you wouldn't know it from looking at the results haha. Seagull Joe also used Diddy (definitely in Grand Finals, maybe more), and Midnight used both Rosa and Greninja in his games against Colonies.

EDIT: oh yeah, and Colonies used Ryu against Seagull Joe
Tension used :4ryu:, not Colonies.
:018:
 
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valakmtnsmash4

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@Illusion. great stuff at KI con, reverse 3-0ing megafox with Roy was really fun to watch and you put up a great fight against Leo. Those SDs were sad lol but good stuff overall getting 3rd
 
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Ark of Silence101

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Smash 4 at KI Con 2017 (43 Entrants) (Texas)

1st: Nairo :4zss:
2nd: MKLeo :4cloud2: :4marth:
3rd: Illusion :4greninja: :4feroy:
4th: Megafox :4fox:

PAX Arena at PAX East 2017 Invitational (8 Entrants) (Boston)

1st: ZeRo :4diddy:
2nd: Dabuz :rosalina: :4bayonetta2:
3rd: Larry Lurr :4fox:
4th: ESAM :4pikachu:
5th: Pugwest :4marth:
5th: Marss :4zss:
7th: ANTi :4mario: :4cloud2:
7th: Pink Fresh :4bayonetta2:

ZeRo dropped two games the entire tournament. One to Larry, and one to Dabuz.

Additionally, HIKARU :4dk: is confirmed for Civil War.
Funny how Nairo got his first and second victories against Leo in the same tournament.
 

Nah

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What exactly are invitationals for, given their very small size?
 

|RK|

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What exactly are invitationals for, given their very small size?
Showcase high level talent without going through a bunch of extra. Still just as strong (if not stronger) than tournaments with 1000 entrants. Lot of pressure, too, since it's very realistic for a strong player to go 0-2.

Speaking of Das Koopa Das Koopa - how will the 2GGC Championship be ranked? Do you know?
 

Das Koopa

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2GGC Championship is probably Category 5 for OrionRank assuming it works like the Capcom Cup and there are 32 entrants based on the points thing 2GGC has. Not totally sure on this though since details about it have been pretty vague iirc.
 

Rizen

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In Dabuz' defence, it's hard to ignore your Pocket Bayo when you're down 0-2 vs a Fox.
I didn't mean to be hating on Bayo players. It was meant to be a joke since everyone and their mother has a pocket Bayo or Cloud.
 

Ziodyne 21

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I didn't mean to be hating on Bayo players. It was meant to be a joke since everyone and their mother has a pocket Bayo or Cloud.

Woah so Dabuz actually reversed 3-0 Larry using his Bayo? . That is actually pretty impressive regardless of the MU it true. Dabuz must of been putting a lot of work into the character .
 
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ARGHETH

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Also, he only went Bayo game 2, lost, and went back to Rosa to almost reverse 3-0 Larry.
 

Ziodyne 21

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New question did Dabuz actually win any games using Bayo? Because I thought the rule was secondaries/pockets were not factored into results on thia board if they actually did not win any games when used.
 
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Das Koopa

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i stopped watching after ZeRo beat Larry but afaik Dabuz 3-0'd Larry in LF with Rosa and used Bayo one game in their Semis set and lost solidly.
 
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outfoxd

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Unrelated and I'm out of the loop, but is the Midwest getting a surge of top talent? I know Zero and the LoF crew are in, or parts anyway. The MW might become an even more relevant region to watch in coming months.
 

|RK|

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Wait, why did we let Marth into top tier again? I've just been thinking about it, and many of his big results come from Leo, who uses Cloud A LOT. The solo Marth mains aren't even doing more than Ryu at his peak AFAIK.
 

verbatim

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Unrelated and I'm out of the loop, but is the Midwest getting a surge of top talent? I know Zero and the LoF crew are in, or parts anyway. The MW might become an even more relevant region to watch in coming months.
One thing people haven't really mentioned is that the midwest is getting a lot more coverage in general. Major events like UGC, TBH6, and Frostbite have given midwest players the chance to shine in the spotlight.
 
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BTVolta

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Wait, why did we let Marth into top tier again? I've just been thinking about it, and many of his big results come from Leo, who uses Cloud A LOT. The solo Marth mains aren't even doing more than Ryu at his peak AFAIK.
Consistent high placing over the course of a year from multiple players in different Regions. No one Marth main carried his results like Trela for Ryu did for so long. Fuwa, False, Mr. E, Pugwest and Leo all contributed to Marth's success since the last patch and have all shown that Marth is a meta defining character that can compete with the best of the best.
 

Fenny

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In Dabuz' defence, it's hard to ignore your Pocket Bayo when you're down 0-2 vs a Fox.
The problem with that way of thinking is that Bayo's supposed dominance in that MU hinges on whether the player can Fair Fox into oblivion - otherwise it's only a slight advantage for Bayo for other factors.
 

ShadowGuy1

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Wait, why did we let Marth into top tier again? I've just been thinking about it, and many of his big results come from Leo, who uses Cloud A LOT. The solo Marth mains aren't even doing more than Ryu at his peak AFAIK.
Ryu's Peak was 9th at EVO, 9th at Zero Saga, and 9th at UGc. Marth, at these events, are 13th and 17th at EVO, UGC was 5th, 13th, and 17th. ZeRo Saga MKLeo won primarily going Marth(only set that he went Cloud was vs Dabuz I believe)

I would say that's above Ryu's peak, especially when you consider other tournaments.
 

verbatim

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Also Genesis, where Leo played only Marth in top 8 (Cloud in WR2) and won from winners side.
 
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Laken64

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EDIT:He deleted it because it had the high tier list and the end instead of midtier lol
 
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The-Technique

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Wait, why did we let Marth into top tier again? I've just been thinking about it, and many of his big results come from Leo, who uses Cloud A LOT. The solo Marth mains aren't even doing more than Ryu at his peak AFAIK.
Marth got good results before Leo, mainly from Pugwest and Mr. E (who took a set from Zero before MK Leo did)
 

Illuminose

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because marth is actually an amazing character. his neutral is fantastic because he has amazing spacing tools that make him formidable to approach and hard to pin down in general. nair and fair are both very safe spacing options with a ton of reward, including combos (nair has kill confirms) and potential tech chases/frame traps. nair can be used for crossing up opponents on approach and gaining reward in general out of approaches. back air can also be spaced safely. up air is quite safe and fast - a good option for frame traps and offensive pressure. all of these moves can kill very effectively as well, making marth a scary character to approach and challenge in general. that's not even mentioning his elite ground game, the best move of course being jab which is utterly ridiculous, confirming into combos and kills with ease. forward tilt and down tilt are also excellent pokes and spacing options; forward tilt is particularly good when you pivot it and dtilt is a solid poking tool, even setting up tech chases sometimes. dancing blade is of course a great option as well, a bit unsafe but still very solid/consistent for punishing and mixups. this ground game is made better because marth's movement is amazing with one of the best walks in the game, a solid perfect pivot, and one of the best extended dash dances. there's up b oos to escape pressure, which is also obviously unsafe but a very consistently effective option that prevents marth from being kept in shield. marth can use so many different amazing options in neutral whether utilizing his grounded movement, sh/fh aerials, or simply his ground game. many characters just can't deal with all of these options and get demolished by marth's neutral.

and then there's the fact that marth is so explosive and scary to fight. his aerials all kill at normal ko percents (100/110ish). tipper fsmash practically kills when you spawn and is a relatively quick move to throw out. jab leads into kills, including very consistent options in ftilt and tipper dancing blade, which kills ridiculously early. up tilt kills. if you feel too safe in shield, marth can shieldbreaker and kill you at 30. he has a consistent kill throw in up throw that generally kills ~130/140 and even a dthrow uair kill confirm on certain characters. getting hit can be so scary because marth has the range and proper frame traps to cover landings, really keeping his opponents from landing or simply kill you with the correct option coverage/read, and an elite ledge trap game due to jab and the other options at marth's disposal, including some of the most rewarding options for 2 frame catches in the game. even though he doesn't need it, marth also has really good edgeguarding. if we're talking about rewarding characters and characters that have "x factor" or jank, marth fits in right alongside those characters in addition to having the fantastic neutral.

what are marth's flaws? he can have trouble landing if he can't create a little bit of space to cover himself with an aerial and his opponent doesn't let him get away with the dair. his recovery can be a bit exploitable, though it's far from bad. his disadvantage state in general is a bit underwhelming, though up b and up air as well as certain other situational mixups help a lot. also, marth can definitely juggle you and ledge trap you, but he's not going to do a 50% combo. marth in certain respects definitely has to work for the percent he gets (though leo has shown that the way this was portrayed in the past was heavily overblown), although the percents he can kill you at and jank he possesses are crazy regardless. marth loses a few matchups, probably -1 vs sheik and maybe losing to a couple other characters - bayonetta and zero suit being the main ones that come to mind, with mk also being on the radar. none of those matchups are really bad, but in terms of top tiers we don't really see marth dominating much either, mostly having even matchups aside from mario (a matchup he wins) and potentially 1-2 other slight advantages. his matchups against other characters tend to be very solid overall though.

if we look at results, marth has many players putting in work. though not entirely on its own, leo at least used marth only in top 8 of the last two tier 1 events (genesis 4 and zero saga) to take the win, making marth one of the few characters to win a tier 1 event, let alone multiple. he's also currently the second best player in the world. mr.e, though a notably inconsistent player, has some fantastic wins with marth, such as over zero, nairo, dabuz, and ally, and 1 top 8 at a major (ugc) alongside multiple top 16s and a number of significant regional-level results over the past year. he's probably ~top 25 in the world with solo marth. pugwest has wins over the likes of anti, marss, mr.e, and tweek and a number of top 32 (17th/25th) placements at majors, all with just marth. fuwa is ranked on the highly competitive japanese pr, regularly achieving top 16 and top 8 placements at japanese events with wins over komorikiri, earth, taiheita, hikaru, some, goma, and more. rizeasu, though far from a solo marth, is also ranked on the japanese pr and has notable wins with marth himself, such as taiheita, kuro, hikaru, you3, shogun, and fuwa. false is less active and doesn't only use marth, but his marth has found some significant success in helping him achieve notable wins and success at the majors/regional events he does attend.

marth has the neutral, the ability to maintain advantage state, the explosive capabilities to clutch out matches and turn them around at any times, the reasonable options in disadvantage, the matchups, and the results to back up his placement as a top tier character. in fact i think he may even be a little underrated in his current position, though it's all arguable.
 

Ziodyne 21

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Marth also doesn't exactly have the greatest disadvantage state. It's by no means terrible , but he lacks a risk free combo breaker or get out of disadvantage free move that many other top tiers have.
He is somewhat suspectable losng stocks due to o certian janky combos like Bayo/ZSS ladders or Bowser/DK throw to up-air

Still his advantage and strengths do outweigh his weakness and has certiay proven to be viable and compete with the best.
 
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Routa

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I would also say that he does have hard time dealing with shields. While he does have a good grab, the reward from landing it is not as high as with other characters within top tier. Also the distance where he can go for grab is too close for grab to be effective from tomahawk due to other options from toma being bad from that specific distance where you can get the grab. I am aware of his SB, but I would not call it effective. You can see it coming from time to time due to how Marth has to space it. I would also add to that it is hard mixup into due to the distance requirement for it to be effective (as in having good risk/reward ratio. None tippered SB is rather unsafe move) + other moves requiring less distance to be effective (for example Fair and DB).
Now let's make things clear... I'm not saying he sucks against shielding... What I'm saying is that he has some trouble with dealing shields unlike others in the top tier.
 

TDK

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-n0Sg9wg2tM&feature=youtu.be

ZeRo's Mid Tiers for his tier list.

32: :4pit: :4darkpit:
22: :4rob:
34: :4gaw: (See Dr. Mario)
35 :4shulk:
36: :4drmario: ("I feel like Dr. Mario could be a high tier one day")
37: :4charizard: ("I think Charizard will be in high tier in the future")
38: :4falco:
39: :4duckhunt:
40: :4wiifit:
41: :4feroy:
42: :4wario:
43: :4palutena:
44: :4kirby:
45: :4pacman:
46: :4myfriends:

So yeah, looks like Link's a high tier according to ZeRo.
 
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Shaya

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Why tomahawk into grab when you could tomahawk into that mother ****ing glorious god like poke that is down tilt?

I'd say in general that while shield is ok against Marth....proper use of his kit cares very very little for shield and he's designed to hit shields at their maximum extremities reliably.
The man loses to whiff punishes.
Not shield.

Like, I've coached many people on how to deal with Marth, and I always have to spend the initial part of it explaining to them that 'just shielding' is really bad against him.

Something like
"okay, you see Marth jump, what do you do?"
"shield"
"Wrong".

It wasn't the right thing to do in Brawl either, and yet people think it's smart to do against him now yet his shield safety (on tippers) is BETTER than Brawl.
 
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Routa

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So Marth hits your shield with Fair. What next? As far as I know it pretty much ends there. It goes back to neutral (unless there is something I am not aware off). Also while Dtilt is good... Why would I go for it when I can go for Jab which is faster option that has higher reward along with covering larger area? I do understand the poking, but it is not as effective as it was before. Even DB seems better option in majority of the cases. If Marth's D-tilt shared the data with Swordspider... Well in that case I would understand.
You can always correct me.
 

Swamp Sensei

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37: :4charizard: ("I think Charizard will be in high tier in the future")
Well damn.

I found someone more optimistic on Charizard than me.

Personally mid tier is a fine place for him.

I'd love to be proved wrong though.
 

|RK|

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Consistent high placing over the course of a year from multiple players in different Regions. No one Marth main carried his results like Trela for Ryu did for so long. Fuwa, False, Mr. E, Pugwest and Leo all contributed to Marth's success since the last patch and have all shown that Marth is a meta defining character that can compete with the best of the best.
Ryu's Peak was 9th at EVO, 9th at Zero Saga, and 9th at UGc. Marth, at these events, are 13th and 17th at EVO, UGC was 5th, 13th, and 17th. ZeRo Saga MKLeo won primarily going Marth(only set that he went Cloud was vs Dabuz I believe)

I would say that's above Ryu's peak, especially when you consider other tournaments.
Also Genesis, where Leo played only Marth in top 8 (Cloud in WR2) and won from winners side.
Marth got good results before Leo, mainly from Pugwest and Mr. E (who took a set from Zero before MK Leo did)
I see all of this, but outside of Leo, how many times did Marth players break top 8?

And even looking at Leo - it's not hard to go one character in a top 8 that works well for that character. If a Cloud/Luigi main had a top 8 bracket at a major consisting of Diddy, Mario, and Bayonetta, they could go Luigi all of top 8 as well.

IDK, it just seems kind of strange since the only Marth that gets those kind of results regularly backs it up with a secondary. Comparatively, you look at Mario, Diddy, Rosa, Mewtwo, Cloud, Sheik, Fox and Bayonetta, you'll see solo mains tear through full brackets regularly.

I don't doubt that Marth is an incredibly powerful character, but he doesn't seem like a "meta-defining" threat whatsoever. Definitely not on the level of the characters I've previously mentioned.
 

Shaya

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So Marth hits your shield with Fair. What next? As far as I know it pretty much ends there. It goes back to neutral (unless there is something I am not aware off). Also while Dtilt is good... Why would I go for it when I can go for Jab which is faster option that has higher reward along with covering larger area? I do understand the poking, but it is not as effective as it was before. Even DB seems better option in majority of the cases. If Marth's D-tilt shared the data with Swordspider... Well in that case I would understand.
You can always correct me.
A weakened shield (nair, dtilt, etc are strong at shield poking), a position in which Marth can punish movement before he's susceptible to punishment himself.
Feel like I can say "So Sheik/X/Y/Z hits your shield with Fair. What's next? As far as I know...." too.

Tomahawk into jab was something I was also going to originally say (alongside down tilt). Down Tilt has -a lot more- reach though and comes with the added benefit of being in a crouching animation.

How isn't it as effective as it was before when it has more range than Brawl and is safer on block than in brawl? Well, in brawl it also was one of our bread and butter combo tools as it combo'd into dancing blade early, but it's true strength was the poking/anti-dash in utility. Jab replaces that part of the bread and butter as a reliable punish but is still controlling less [horizontal] space than dtilt is.
People seem to forget that Smash4 isn't all about trying to get 'semi-safe' combo starting tools to work in neutral over and over again (e.g. zero suits nairing in neutral too much). Being down tilted at max range on block is genuinely trapping someone in a very unfavourable position (only remotely safe thing that may not get punished on reaction is shield drop dash away; certain fast dash attacks kinda create 50/50s which are still in marths favour).
Oh and as its a 'poke' it's covering approaching movements (dash ins), while dash to shield against jab is a solid answer.

Unlike Roy's or Melee Marth's down tilt, Brawl/S4 Marth down tilt pokes upwards slightly so it beats grounded overheads (e.g. Bowser Jab, many chars dash attacks) and hits closer to the maximum horizontal position a shield bubble extends to (a lot of down tilts hit 'below' this). Also means you can time it to cover landings 'easier' due to this brief upwards stab (e.g. down tilting diddy's legs as he's falling from a SH AC fair)
 
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Emblem Lord

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Wait...do people still not understand Marcina/Roy dtilt trap that has existed since melee? One of the easiest and most oppressive traps in the smash series, made even more infamous by MK in Brawl?

Shaya Shaya these are dark times old friend.

Gone is the golden age of yore
 
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Shaya

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Wait...do people still not understand Marcina/Roy dtilt trap that has existed since melee? One of the easiest and most oppressive traps in the smash series, made even more infamous by MK in Brawl?

Shaya Shaya these are dark times old friend.

Gone is the golden age of yore
People just don't use down tilt in this game.
I don't understand. It hurts.
Well I do understand this much, people equate 'winning neutral harder but not getting 30% combos off of it guaranteed/without thinking' to not actually winning.
They'll see the light though. Mewtwo down smashing is going to blow people's minds... some day.
 
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