Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[Yonder]

The hidden Lumen Sages came out of hiding.

Top Players making posts about quitting, banning Bayo etc are just in a crash mode after an adrenaline rush inducing event like EVO. I know my first reaction to things i don't like is to moan and complain/vent online (Toon Link, Miis, heck i hated ROB upon reveal, that guy is awesome sorry ROB! But I still haven't forgiven Dark Pit lol)
Just give it a week for people to calm down. Mentality after losing is always affected and natural, no matter where you go.
Or ban all use of the word "Bayonetta" on social media/message boards for a week. Can I mod people who say her name please? (kidding!)

 

[dakotaisgreat]

Sorry, but this point is really rubs me the wrong way.
It might come as hypocritical to say you don't argue for a ban but still want nerfs.
If she really deserves more changes then she is *too* powerful and potentially toxic and therefore, a possible ban discussion would not be out of the table.


I did see people complaining and wanting to ban Bayonetta since last friday.
I expect some later or tomorrow.
I want to ban Bayonetta because people complain too much and at this point is about as justifiable as banning Duckhunt (because "nobody likes her" and "promotes a toxic playstyle").
I want to ban Bayonetta because people legit have quitted the game because of her.
I want to ban Bayonetta because we probably lost 2 of our major sources of info thanks to her (Juddy (maybe) and Tetra (almost definitely)).
I want to ban Bayonetta because Nintendo's new motto is "if it isn't fun, why bother?"
I want to ban Bayonetta to prevent more complaining about her, more nonsense arguments and more "you're delusional if you do not think she's broken".

Banning Bayonetta would almost certainly create more complaining than she creates now. If you think she could be banned and people would just be like "Phew, problem solved. Let's move on now." then you're just wrong.

Also, saying a character could use some nerfs is definitely not the same thing as saying you think they should be banned. I have no idea how you came to that conclusion, but it's a vast oversimplification of things and it seems rather dishonest to hear someone say one thing and then "interpret" it to mean something that they did not at all say. That's like someone saying "Dedede could use some buffs", and me hearing that, and saying "So what you're actually saying is that you think customs should be allowed for low tier characters to help buff them?" The two things are not related.

Has DLC simply become too imbalanced?

Or is this a simple knee-jerk reaction to Bayo winning her first super major?

Mr. E is a nice guy irl and I'm not trying to throw shade but it seems really silly to be that upset about top tiers in this game when you're choosing to play Marth. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Either play Diddy/Bayonetta/Cloud to win or play your "favorite" character and accept that you're choosing to gimp yourself. That's the simple reality of it. If he was that bothered by this then he shouldn't play Marth anymore.

 

[TDK]

That's like someone saying "Dedede could use some buffs", and me hearing that, and saying "So what you're actually saying is that you think customs should be allowed for low tier characters to help buff them?" The two things are not related.

Irrelevant, but with the exception of Ganon and maybe Pac-Man most bottomtiers have atrocious customs (Especially Zelda and Jiggs, whos customs are direct downgrades of their already mixed bag of specials).

Mr. E is a nice guy irl and I'm not trying to throw shade but it seems really silly to be that upset about top tiers in this game when you're choosing to play Marth. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Either play Diddy/Bayonetta/Cloud to win or play your "favorite" character and accept that you're choosing to gimp yourself. That's the simple reality of it. If he was that bothered by this then he shouldn't play Marth anymore.

No, this isn't one of the previous instalments. While are all a step above the rest of the cast, this is the game with no less than 10 top tiers, with half of them being on roughly the same plane as each other. Additionally, we've seen characters all the way down to Ganon, who sits just above the bottom 5, top 32 a major, and even Jiggs make top 64 Every character in this game is capable of doing something, and what you define "success" as isn't always determined by the paycheck you get at the end.

What you're looking for in this game is dependant on wether you want to win or play to your best, and I get the feeling Mr. E did neither at EVO, which led to this.

 

[Rizen]

Zelda's Nayru's and Farow's are both great specials, js.

Mr. E is a nice guy irl and I'm not trying to throw shade but it seems really silly to be that upset about top tiers in this game when you're choosing to play Marth. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Either play Diddy/Bayonetta/Cloud to win or play your "favorite" character and accept that you're choosing to gimp yourself. That's the simple reality of it. If he was that bothered by this then he shouldn't play Marth anymore.

Agree. Speaking as a mid, formally low tier player, you picked your poison by not going top tier. SSB4 could indeed use more balancing and part of that would be nerfing Bayo but that doesn't mean patches are a necessity. For a fighting game with this sized roster SSB4 is fairly well balanced. Bayo's top 3 so she's "da bess", if not her it was pre-patch Diddy/Luigi/Sheik etc. It's important to not take balancing in too black-and-white a context.

On another note, Salem is a top player and proved he's not carried by broken characters in Brawl by winning a super major (CEO? IDK) with ZSS. With that said, Bayo has a huge top 8 presence everywhere and is probably the character the meta most revolves around.

 

[FeelMeUp]

ZeRo did not get robbed. He autopiloted into the same dumb ledge habits he's had since 2015 and used the same dumb SDI patterns he was getting killed for in 2016. Why would you EVER SDI up against rage Bayonetta on Town? Better question, when's the last time you saw ZeRo use a SDI pattern that wasn't some lazy form of up/up+away?

There's plenty wrong with Bayonetta, but all this happening so fast is evidence of people wanting a scapegoat to push their frustrations on.
She is that scapegoat.
Every game has one. Back when I played Yu-Gi-Oh! competitively I'd watch this same dance happen every single format for 5+ years straight.

Regardless of how stable our meta gets, people will still default to complaints before realizing that they simply were not good enough.
Hate to target someone specifically, but look at Mr. E as an example. Remove Bayonetta, Mewtwo, Ryu, Lucas, Roy and Cloud while also making the top 10-20 PGR'd players disappear. I would bet money that Mr. E STILL wouldn't make top 8.

There comes a point when you guys should just look at the screen and ask yourself a few questions:
"Is Bayonetta the reason Salem won EVO? Or is Salem the reason Bayonetta won EVO?"
and more specifically:
"Is Bayonetta/Cloud/Ryu/Sonic/Sheik/Rosa/Diddy/XXX the reason I'm losing? Or do I just suck?"

 

[Thinkaman]

I recall telling someone that I thought Capt. Zack was a better Bayo, yet Salem was the better player--and that Zack doesn't have the experience to stay cool and focused set after set against top players, but Salem does.

We saw a polished and consistent Salem, which resulted in the same consequence as it did in Brawl.

Oh, and any Bayonetta johns are so patently absurd that it's not even worth anyone's time to acknowledge them. What a joke. Are characters just not allowed to win tourneys?

 

[NairWizard]

Bayonetta isn't broken. She's legit insane, but that's all it is.

Salem, though, is absolutely bonkers broken.

Ban Salem.

 

[Rizen]

I get the impression people are venting here about Bayo complaints on other sites... Can you please post a link rather than the vague "people are scrubs for complaining about bayo" generalizations?

 

[dakotaisgreat]

I get the impression people are venting here about Bayo complaints on other sites... Can you please post a link rather than the vague "people are scrubs for complaining about bayo" generalizations?

Just browse whatever websites you think may have discussion about this game and I gaurentee you'll see a **** show of opinions of casual 15 year old ganon mains who have never gone to a local and strive to one day be as godlike as their hero Alpharad and you'll never want to go back. What's worse is when uninformed people say stupid things and they spread like wild fire and perpetuate among other uninformed people who will take the information at face value and never fact check it.

That being said I don't think linking to other sites and talking about what people are saying there would be very appropriate here. Remember, we are supposed to be trying to stay on topic. And I guess that topic is the tier list. And in an attempt to stay on topic, **** Sonic. I don't care if other characters are objectively better than Sonic. Fighting Bayonetta is multiple times more enjoyable and less frustrating than fighting Sonic.

 

[Rizen]

Things like this post showing Mr.E's comment (which still didn't say anything about banning bayo but rather how he doesn't like fighting DLC characters) help give people in this thread some perspective.

Well, this is unfortunate:

(1) Until they patch DLC and just priveledge stuff in general I don't think I wanna play this game competitively anymore.

— EMP FC | Mr. E - ON METAFY (@MreSSB) July 15, 2017

Because if it's just some scrubs on reddit complaining, who cares, lol?

 

[ぱみゅ]

Oh, btw

Rebirth - July 16, 2017 (48 entrants)(Mexico)
1.-TMX | Pineda
2.-TSE | R
3.-TSE | REYES
4.-PFT | Geeked
5.-DST | Stelar
5.-PFT | 2D
7.-LCA | Dx
7.-TSE | NETOmx

Just in case it might count for Koopa's ranks.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

Has DLC simply become too imbalanced?

Or is this a simple knee-jerk reaction to Bayo winning her first super major?

That's was what Mr.E said when he lost to Lima to qualify for Top 32.

 

[Nu~]

I mean...I understand Mr.E's frustration.

Sure, Bayo ain't broken and smash players in general are pretty bad against her... But you gotta admit that at least half of y'all hate fighting that char.

The disadvantage state against Bayonetta has to be the most stressful (and hard on the thumb) disadvantage state to be in out of any char in the game.
Every time I get hit by witch twist it's like I'm playing Ocelot's torture scene.

 

[Bowserboy3]

It makes me roll how it's been what, pretty much a year and a half after Bayonetta's release (in which time she got toned down a fair bit via a patch too) and she FINALLY manages to win something big.

This is the very first instance, yet people are now saying she needs to be banned. It's like people were looking for a reason to say she could be banned. Even if Salem didn't win, I would almost guarantee that people would be hammering on at the point that this was a very successful tournament for the Bayonetta players on the whole.

Bayonetta beats bad/mid level players a whole lot easier than any other character; Cloud arguably comes close. It's mainly these players that call for her being banned. When we look at top level where Bayonetta fails to win everything (I mean, a year and a half in and she's finally won a supermajor lol), I sometimes just sit back and laugh.

Bayonetta is amazingly good; likely the best in the game, or one of the two, maybe three characters that can have a shout at being best, but the fact she isn't winning everything all the time speaks much about her as a character. She is FAR from broken. Overtuned? Perhaps, yes, but not broken, and absolutely beatable.

Prehaps it's just me, but when I see people complaining about Bayonetta, I look at things like the video below, take a look at the character's frame data (Uair - f*** how did that move get through balancing?) and look at all the tools he possesses and only then do I realise what broken truly is.

(I know this video isn't the best example, but the fact that it isn't also kinda just backs up my point lol)

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

I'd be pretty hesitant to say that top tier is 10+ characters big when people are so insistent that Cloud, Diddy, Sheik, Bayonetta, and maybe Rosalina are a clear cut above the rest.

If there is a distinguishably large gap between those five and the rest of 'top tier', which there is, then those other characters are inherently not top tier. That's not what top means. If you're having to separate them as a different group then they are not part of the same tier.

 

[Iron Kraken]

Sorry, but this point is really rubs me the wrong way.
It might come as hypocritical to say you don't argue for a ban but still want nerfs.
If she really deserves more changes then she is *too* powerful and potentially toxic and therefore, a possible ban discussion would not be out of the table.


I did see people complaining and wanting to ban Bayonetta since last friday.
I expect some later or tomorrow.
I want to ban Bayonetta because people complain too much and at this point is about as justifiable as banning Duckhunt (because "nobody likes her" and "promotes a toxic playstyle").
I want to ban Bayonetta because people legit have quitted the game because of her.
I want to ban Bayonetta because we probably lost 2 of our major sources of info thanks to her (Juddy (maybe) and Tetra (almost definitely)).
I want to ban Bayonetta because Nintendo's new motto is "if it isn't fun, why bother?"
I want to ban Bayonetta to prevent more complaining about her, more nonsense arguments and more "you're delusional if you do not think she's broken".

You fell right into the slippery slope fallacy.

That is to say: Just because I'm saying I would like to see Bayo touched up does not mean I feel she should be banned until we get another patch. It's not even a close call, she should obviously be legal. As I said, Bayo isn't the only top tier I would touch for the Switch version (although indeed I would give her harder nerfs than any other character).

The Bayo White Knights are really out in full force in this thread, huh?

I'm here because I have posts in the competitive thread going back a year in which I express my opinion that Bayo is the best character in the game and that I didn't need immediate results to validate my opinion. I contended it's possible to use foresight to deduce that a character has the tools that make them the best in the game even if their results are not quite #1 yet.

So to me, the fact that Salem beat ZeRo has almost nothing to do with my opinion that Bayo is the best in the game. But it's something to throw back in the face of the people who refuse to call a character the best of the game until she starts winning majors.

I really can't emphasize enough how it's not just about Salem, who no doubt is a great player. It's the fact that players across the world have picked up Bayo and risen from relative obscurity into players who are capable of beating nearly anyone on the coattails of Bayo.

So as someone who has long felt Bayo is the best character in the game, I feel my opinion is increasingly being validated by results, punctuated by what we saw at EVO.

I know many people here remain unconvinced Bayo is the best character in the game and that's absolutely fine, you're entitled to your opinion. And I'm entitled to my long-held opinion that Bayo is the best in the game, and to see Bayo's steadily improving results over time as validation of my opinion.

 

[Krysco]

I don't care what placement Bayo ends up ever being. I'm just happy that I won't have to see 'she can't be x placement because she hasn't won anything' anymore. Same damn thing was done a few months ago with Rosa and then pretty much back to back, Kirahira and Dabuz win major tournaments with her. Anyone else left? Cloud? Post-patch Sheik? Idk if Mario, Sonic, Fox, Marcina, Ryu, Mewtwo or ZSS are even relevant to the topic since they're rarely, if ever put on the same pedestals that and sorta are. Kinda hard to even use results as proof of a character's tier placement when one player using, for the most part, one character wins a vast majority of major tournaments.

Just as long as there was no equivalent to the 0.9 fiasco going on.

 

[Iron Kraken]

I don't care what placement Bayo ends up ever being. I'm just happy that I won't have to see 'she can't be x placement because she hasn't won anything' anymore. Same damn thing was done a few months ago with Rosa and then pretty much back to back, Kirahira and Dabuz win major tournaments with her. Anyone else left? Cloud? Post-patch Sheik? Idk if Mario, Sonic, Fox, Marcina, Ryu, Mewtwo or ZSS are even relevant to the topic since they're rarely, if ever put on the same pedestals that and sorta are. Kinda hard to even use results as proof of a character's tier placement when one player using, for the most part, one character wins a vast majority of major tournaments.

Just as long as there was no equivalent to the 0.9 fiasco going on.

Exactly. I feel like I'm just venting my frustration at people who are so closed-minded that they can't accept a character being the best until said character wins a major... It's such a silly, arbitrary standard.

If all that matters to you when building a tier list is results, then input the results into some mathematical formula and accept the tier list for what it is.

But if you think the tier list has some room for actual human judgment, then don't create these silly and arbitrary conditions by which a character is allowed to be the best in the game.

 

[blackghost]

With mr. E complaint, people like to hide their frustrations behind "DLC" being busted lets break that down. Dlc characters are roy,cloud,ryu,.mewtwo Lucas, corrin and bayonetta.
Of the 7 characters no one complains about 4 of them roy corrin Lucas mewtwo. Complaints happen regarding ryu but most aren't taken seriously in knowledgeable circles.
That leaves bayo and cloud the two most complained about characters bayo and cloud. When I hear people complain about dlc they are just trying to hide the fact theu are complaining about bayo and cloud.
I really dont think many players have truly learned how to fight her and so i don't feel sympathy for them she's been here long enough.

I can't wait to watch ninjalink break down evo im gonna be laughing the entire zero Salem set.
People keep asking for bayo nerfs and im genuinely curious do you guys want nerfs or do you guys just want her to be worthless? What would you change? Please explain completely.

 

[Iron Kraken]

With mr. E complaint, people li me to hide their frustrations behind "DLC" being bhsted lets break that down. Dlc characters are roy,cloud,ryu,.mewtwo Lucas, corrin and bayonetta.
Of the 7 characters no one complains about 4 of them roy corrin Lucas mewtwo. Complaints happen regarding ryu but most aren't taken seriously in knowledgeable circles.
That leaves bayo and cloud the two most complained about characters bayo and cloud. When I hear people complain about dlc they are just trying to hide the fact theu are complaining about bayo and cloud.
I really.dpmt think many players have truly learned how to fight her and o don't feel sympathy for them she's been here long enough.

I can't wait to watch ninjalink break down evo im gonna be laughing the entire zero Salem set.
People keep asking for bayo nerfs and om.genuinely curious do you guys want nerfs or do you guys just want her to be worthless? What would you change? Please explain completely.

I think the issue people have with "DLC" - which I agree really just refers to Bayo and Cloud - is that these two characters (along with Corrin) really didn't have enough time to be properly assessed and patched compared to the rest of the cast. It was pretty obvious that the development team wanted to put Smash 4 behind them already (and I can't say I blame them) after working on the game for years. While other characters were scrutinized with every patch, Bayo really only had a couple of months before the development team called it quits. In fact, you could tell that they really only wanted to do one more patch after the release of Bayo/Corrin, but Bayo was so obviously overpowered that they had to make an exception and give the game one more patch essentially just for her before calling it quits. Still, they didn't really have enough time to assess her, and I certainly think she would have been nerfed further had the developers stuck around longer.

People really need to stop responding to non-existent complaints. No one here is saying that there isn't counterplay to Bayo or that she's unbeatable.

Bayo being beatable and Bayo being a bit overpowered are not mutually exclusive opinions.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

With bayo under the hands of salem, I don't know when this this will end.

 

[blackghost]

I think the issue people have with "DLC" - which I agree really just refers to Bayo and Cloud - is that these two characters (along with Corrin) really didn't have enough time to be properly assessed and patched compared to the rest of the cast. It was pretty obvious that the development team wanted to put Smash 4 behind them already (and I can't say I blame them) after working on the game for years. While other characters were scrutinized with every patch, Bayo really only had a couple of months before the development team called it quits. In fact, you could tell that they really only wanted to do one more patch after the release of Bayo/Corrin, but Bayo was so obviously overpowered that they had to make an exception and give the game one more patch essentially just for her before calling it quits. Still, they didn't really have enough time to assess her, and I certainly think she would have been nerfed further had the developers stuck around longer.

People really need to stop responding to non-existent complaints. No one here is saying that there isn't counterplay to Bayo or that she's unbeatable.

Bayo being beatable and Bayo being a bit overpowered are not mutually exclusive opinions.

Regarding her nerf patch it was good they did that but honestly isn't much more they could have done to her without crippling her. Witch twist essentially has to work for her to function. She is defined and designed around it.
Until I see people nornally di and sdi her correctly (ie not up) im just going to tune it out. Relative to the rest of the cast she is good. overpowered? Not even close this series has had actual op characters she isn't.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Saw this tweet a moment ago, and when you really think about it, it's kind of true; there's a reason he was the only Bayonetta in top 8 after all.

This can be applied to most games and most characters tbh.

Salem won evo because of Bayonetta?No Bayonetta won Evo because of Salem.
learn the difference folks.
congrats salem :)

— Ozone (@LegendaryOzone) July 17, 2017

Bayonetta is f***ing amazing and I love her for it. She's gonna upset a few people on her path to the top, but not everyone can easily take her all the way there.

 

[Iron Kraken]

Regarding her nerf patch it was good they did that but honestly isn't much more they could have done to her without crippling her. Witch twist essentially has to work for her to function. She is defined and designed around it.
Until I see people nornally di and sdi her correctly (ie not up) im just going to tune it out. Relative to the rest of the cast she is good. overpowered? Not even close this series has had actual op characters she isn't.

There's definitely more they could do to nerf her without "crippling her." Give Witch Time more start up lag, give it more ending lag, make it even worse with unsuccessful Witch Time attempts, do literally anything to make her recovery at least somewhat vulnerable, nerf her kill throws, reduce knockback growth on pretty much any move, reduce frame data on any move, etc. etc.

It's not my intention to talk about how I would nerf Bayo. In fact, I suggest we get off the topic right now. But it's silly to say that she can't be nerfed without being "crippled." There are innumerable ways to nerf her without crippling her.

 

[Iron Kraken]

Saw this tweet a moment ago, and when you really think about it, it's kind of true; there's a reason he was the only Bayonetta in top 8 after all.

This can be applied to most games and most characters tbh.

Salem won evo because of Bayonetta?No Bayonetta won Evo because of Salem.
learn the difference folks.
congrats salem :)

— Ozone (@LegendaryOzone) July 17, 2017

Bayonetta is f***ing amazing and I love her for it. She's gonna upset a few people on her path to the top, but not everyone can easily take her all the way there.

Serious question - do you see *anyone* saying otherwise?

l literally haven't seen anyone saying that Salem isn't a fantastic player who deserves to be a champion.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Serious question - do you see *anyone* saying otherwise?

l literally haven't seen anyone saying that Salem isn't a fantastic player who deserves to be a champion.

Well, seeing as there are many people online, be it Reddit, twitter, YouTube etc, posting/complaining with comments along the lines of "F*** Bayonetta", "Bayonetta carries players", "Bayo too strong" etc etc etc, then, yes.

Us here know he's a deserving champion. I just posted that here as because it's a good point. It wasn't directed towards anyone. Put your pitchfork down.

---

I always thought of a couple of minor nerfs ways to Bayonetta while keeping her still amazing and functional.

• Witch Twist 1 frame 5 or 6 as opposed to 4; this would at least make it a little harder for her to punish OoS with Witch Twist while still keeping it viable. I say specifically Twist 1 because making the 2nd one any later could ruin it's combo function.
• Reduce the vertical distance both Witch Twist's go by at least 10-15%. Not only would this make it harder for Bayonetta to take characters to the top of the screen, it would also take a small step into nerfing her recovery too.
• Make it so that if Bayonetta uses a Side B off stage without hitting anyone, she cannot use another before grabbing the ledge or landing onstage again. Getting hit in the air after using her ABK lets Bayonetta use it again. Removing the ability to use another after being hit would mean she'd be forced to use her Twists to recover, which would outright make her recovery a little worse, and a little more predictable when attempting to edge guard.
• You could also reduce the distance ABK travels by around 10-15% too (obviously the KB values and such would have to be altered to make the move function as it does now).
• I'd also say make Bat Within Air Dodge frame 2 as opposed to Frame 1. Giving Witch Time 1 more frame of startup (from Frame 5 to 6) also wouldn't hurt, while still making it viable for what it's intended to do. Roy's Counter for example isn't really very good because it comes out too late (frame 8).

I'd say all those would be justified enough and would keep her functions well. There is more that could be done, but as somebody who uses her, I feel these would changes make the most sense, and make the most differences to her without ruining her design and alienating her players. It would make recovering and outright killing off of combos much harder.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Salem is ****ing incredible but even he has literally gone on record saying that he thinks his own char is ****ing broken as **** so I feel no regret in mentioning it. He's pretty satisfied with it! As such, I don't really feel bad @ trashing the char. Salem naturally played excellent.

That being said you'd be hard pressed to find anyone saying Bayo is playing fundamentally the same game as anyone else on the roster, and for a lot of players it's a pretty big issue. This should be fun~.

(on a sidenote, sad days that Ryu was indeed the last well designed DLC character.)

 

[Routa]

Gotta love how some of you are complaining about complainers (is that even a real term?). It seems like the community is pretty divided about the whole Bayo and DLC thing (Cloud, Bayo, M2 and Corrin).

I am nobody so my opinion does not matter that much, but I will still share it.
I stopped attending 1v1s mainly 'cause of Cloud and Bayo. Ofc I play a character (Wario) that has hard time dealing with thous characters. Think from my perspective: is it fun to have to work 4 times as much as a Bayo or Cloud just to get one quater of the reward? Is it fun not only to outplay your opponent all the time and also execute every input perfectly just to get that very small reward? Here is the answer: It is not. When a character counters your main in every area it is frustrating and it drains man's will to play the game.
Now you may say that at least she ain't Brawl MK. I want to remind that every character was ridiculous. It was easier to deal with **** when everyone is bonkers as ****.

Anyways do I want her banned? I dunno. It is hard to have any opinion when one of your characters gets beaten to death by people you know you could beat if they had other character and when one of your favourite characters remains banned while Bayo remains free.

I shall now return to my lurking cave.

 

[Illusion.]

>ZeRo wins hundreds of majors
>"See, Diddy is the best"
>Salem wins EVO
>"Nah, Salem's just good"

??????

 

[ARISTOS]

Salem was playing probably the best he ever has and we should all appreciate that we were able to witness that gameplay.

But I agree with TTTTTsd ; Bayo is a fun design but she's not playing the same game as the rest of the cast.

That being said, this is basically EVO 2016 Melee Grand Finals

 

[|RK|]

I recall telling someone that I thought Capt. Zack was a better Bayo, yet Salem was the better player--and that Zack doesn't have the experience to stay cool and focused set after set against top players, but Salem does.

We saw a polished and consistent Salem, which resulted in the same consequence as it did in Brawl.

Oh, and any Bayonetta johns are so patently absurd that it's not even worth anyone's time to acknowledge them. What a joke. Are characters just not allowed to win tourneys?

Well, what's really the difference between better player and better Bayo? Salem has shown a better use of her tools, IMO.

And if we get into this "better player vs better character thing," I could say Zenyou is the best Mario, but Ally is the best Mario player. But it's not like Salem has demonstrated less Bayo knowledge anyways. Idk.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I will say it again.

Peeps could tolerate MK, but not Bayo?

The hell fam?

 

[|RK|]

Y'know, in the metagame discussion section of the Kirby Discord, we have a rule: "no wishlisting." We talk about what we have, instead of what we want. From that, I'm not sure discussion about what we *want* to happen to Bayonetta is productive.

So, Witch Twist - I'm usually one of the people that thinks it's too quick, but thinking about it... it's functionally the same as a quick dtilt that converts. Bayonetta players use it in the exact same situations too, from what I can tell.

 

[Illusion.]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the reason players "tolerated" Brawl MK was because top players threatened to quit the game if he got banned, which lead to fear of the game dying. MK ban was definitely considered and talked about, but didn't go through because of fear.

 

[Emblem Lord]

OH NOES TOP PLAYERS QUIT!!!!

**** em

 

[PK Gaming]

Sorry, but this point is really rubs me the wrong way.
It might come as hypocritical to say you don't argue for a ban but still want nerfs.
If she really deserves more changes then she is *too* powerful and potentially toxic and therefore, a possible ban discussion would not be out of the table.


I did see people complaining and wanting to ban Bayonetta since last friday.
I expect some later or tomorrow.
I want to ban Bayonetta because people complain too much and at this point is about as justifiable as banning Duckhunt (because "nobody likes her" and "promotes a toxic playstyle").
I want to ban Bayonetta because people legit have quitted the game because of her.
I want to ban Bayonetta because we probably lost 2 of our major sources of info thanks to her (Juddy (maybe) and Tetra (almost definitely)).
I want to ban Bayonetta because Nintendo's new motto is "if it isn't fun, why bother?"
I want to ban Bayonetta to prevent more complaining about her, more nonsense arguments and more "you're delusional if you do not think she's broken".

I don't think its hypocritical

1) Bans should be our absolute last resort.
2) Character oppressiveness can be mitigated with patches.
3) I think people are jumping to conclusions regarding Bayonetta

With those points in mind, there's nothing wrong with believing that Bayonetta isn't broken, but still deserving of nerfs. I mean, look at pre-patch Sheik, look at pre-patch Diddy Kong. Using the fact that a character needs more changes as justification for a ban seems shortsighted, imo. I absolutely think Salem is a large contributor for Bayonetta's immense success.

I perosnally loathed pre-patch Sheik, but I never would have wanted her banned and the 1.15 patch made her more than manageable and I would never want her removed from the game.

 

[ARGHETH]

>ZeRo wins hundreds of majors
>"See, Diddy is the best"
>Salem wins EVO
>"Nah, Salem's just good"

??????

Ah yes, we all know about how little a difference there is between one major and however many majors Zero's won post-patch. 20?

 

[Illusion.]

You know darn well the point I'm trying to make.

 

[Vyrnx]

>ZeRo wins hundreds of majors
>"See, Diddy is the best"
>Salem wins EVO
>"Nah, Salem's just good"

??????

It's been basically the exact opposite for the vast majority of the community.
>ZeRo wins hundreds of majors
>ZeRo is just the best.
>Salem wins EVO
>See, Bayo is obviously the best character.

 

[Lord Dio]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the reason players "tolerated" Brawl MK was because top players threatened to quit the game if he got banned, which lead to fear of the game dying. MK ban was definitely considered and talked about, but didn't go through because of fear.

1. Kinda feels like this game is going through something similar.....
2. How many of those top players DIDN'T play MK? More or less than the ones who did play him?