Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[David Viran]

Bad weaknesses don't necessarily mean they're obvious. There's a reason many ZSS players think she sucks. You can see the stuff that goes well, but not necessarily the things that really shouldn't have gone well.

I wouldn't say most zss players think she's bad tho. The two biggest zss players (Marss and Nairo) think she's top 10(nairo said around 6-7 a few months ago) and solo viable. Then there's like nick riddle who agrees with esam. In the zss cord it's pretty split on what thinks she's top 10 or not.

 

[Y2Kay]

People feel an attachment to conglomerations of pixels because they have spent hours of their time with these pixels getting better at the game.

I've spent a few days' worth of my life playing greninja, so I yeah, I'm a bit of a greninja fanboy. I'd like to believe this doesn't cloud my judgement of the character, and I'm actually being fair when I say Greninja is better than Charizard lmao.

 

[TDK]

I liked playing as Link, and I've gotten more and more attached to him as time goes on, especially with the new design from Breath of the wild (as you can tell by a lot of my more recent avatars). Maining him in smash 4 also got me into Zelda so there's that.

In more relevant news, the first few Macs can now be funded for ARMS Saga here: https://smash.gg/tournament/2ggc-arms-saga/shop/2ggift-shop-13

They are...
BrawlerG31
WonderBread
Alphicans
J.A.P.A.N.

Alphicans really, really should go.

 

[ARISTOS]

Since you've had some responses already bout Yoshi I'll target the MU part at the end instead.
I mean, to be fair Cloud/Bayo are pretty big reasons to a viability of a character. Characters in brawl basically had their current tier list spot solely based on their MU against Meta Knight due to how meta he was in Brawl (no pun intended). The game is slowly headed in that direction with the top 2 at least.

Pretty much all the current top 10 in the world either has a pocket cloud or bayo on deck ready at any moment, not like a Yoshi will ever go deep enough in bracket to meet them tippy top players, but it's more of an example of how prevalent and common those two in particular are at big regionals or nationals/majors.
If you wanna go deep in bracket as Yoshi you gotta get through some mid level cloud/bayo's and that's either all bracket luck to avoid them or hope you can snag a set win since >2 stocks.

I only asked because I wanted to expand past that statement, as I feel when I've heard people talking about Yoshi in the past it's usually "Cloud and Bayo suck, GG" and I wanted the conversation to be a bit more exploratory than that, because Cloud and Bayo suck for a lot of the cast.

 

[Das Koopa]

CEO 2017 (June 16th-18th) (Florida) (611 Entrants) (Category 5)
1st:

TSM | ZeRo
2nd:

FOX MVG | MKLeo .
3rd:

MSF | Larry Lurr
4th:

NRG | Nairo
5th:

P1 | Captain Zack
5th:

KEN
7th:

MVG | Salem
7th:

Marss
9th:

2GG | Ranai .
9th:

EG | Zinoto
9th:

PG | MVD
9th:

RNG | Dabuz
13th:

Raito
13th:

FS | Wrath
13th:

Noble | Manny
13th:

InC | ZD
17th:

StDx | Falln
17th:

PG | ESAM
17th:

Circa | 6WX
17th:

RvL | Mr. E ,
17th:

Mr. R
17th:

YP | Fatality
17th:

LG | Abadango ,
17th:

FSTEP | Tyrant
25th:

DNG | Kameme ,
25th:

TA | saj.
25th:

InC | Koolaid , (Qualifies for OrionRank 2017)
25th:

FS | Myran
25th:

IMT | ANTi ,
25th:

Noble | Ryo ,
25th:

SWG | Lima
25th:

Rideae
33rd:

2GG | komorikiri ,
33rd:

GoTE | Rival , (Qualifies for OrionRank 2017)
33rd:

cR | Dekillsage (Qualifies for OrionRank 2017)
33rd:

Mute Ace (Qualifies for OrionRank 2017)
33rd:

UG | Deluxemenu (Qualifies for OrionRank 2017)
33rd:

MF | DOOM! (Qualifies for OrionRank 2017)
33rd:

Locus
33rd:

Dath
33rd:

MVG | ScAtt
33rd:

G-FORCE | Oni Day
33rd:

TNF | Child
33rd:

PG | Rich Brown
33rd:

E2C | Darkshad
33rd:

ATR | Xaltis
33rd:

P1 | Tweek
33rd:

Pulse | Ryuga ,
49th:

LGCY | Sharpyzard (Qualifies for OrionRank 2017)
49th:

Fable | 8BitMan
49th:

LingLing
49th:

FG | iTheta (Qualifies for OrionRank 2017)
49th:

Headshot (Qualifies for OrionRank 2017)
49th:

The Wall | Barakas
49th:

LeeT , (Qualifies for OrionRank 2017)
49th:

MVG | dyr
49th:

CSM | stilios (Qualifies for OrionRank 2017)
49th:

OES | Eldin (Qualifies for OrionRank 2017)
49th:

Noble | Sol (Qualifies for OrionRank 2017)
49th:

MF | LH | K9sbruce
49th:

MVG | RoguePenguin
49th:

Seibrik (Qualifies for OrionRank 2017)
49th:

InC | Seagull Joe
49th:

Eanix | Kogarasuma

Spoiler: Sumabato 18 (June 18th) (Kansai) (215 Entrants) (Category 3)

1st: Ron ,
2nd: Shuton
3rd: Edge
4th: HIKARU
5th: 9B
5th: Compact
7th: Earth ,
7th: Masashi
9th: Yuzu
9th: Atelier
9th: Gobu
9th: Chanshu
13th: Sigma
13th: Tatutsuyo
13th: Kisha
13th: Matcha

Spoiler: Mega Smash Mondays 100 (June 12th) (Southern California) (229 Entrants) (Category 3)

1st: KEN
2nd: Kameme ,
3rd: VoiD
4th: MKLeo ,
5th: Captain Zack
5th: Mistake
7th: 6WX
7th: komorikiri ,
9th: Zinoto
9th: Salem
9th: Larry Lurr
9th: Ranai ,
13th: Locus
13th: Javi ,
13th: quiK
13th: Cosmos

Spoiler: COST (June 16th) (Midwest) (90 Entrants) (Category 2)

1st: Cosmos
2nd: Cilvanis
3rd: JeBB ,
4th: colinies
5th: Mac Attk
5th: Geist
7th: Crazycolorz5
7th: Karinole

Spoiler: Game Fest SV 2017 (June 16th) (El Salvador) (104 Entrants) (Category 2)

1st: Vanitas
2nd: Flury
3rd: Tron (
4th: Wolfen ,
5th: Green
5th: Hatreck
7th: Grid
7th: Cormene

Spoiler: Wedn Night Fights 2017 Spring Season 2.6 (June 14th) (Southern California) (43 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: MKLeo ,
2nd: komorikiri ,
3rd: Abadango
4th: KEN

Spoiler: Road to Scenic: Finale (June 17th) (Southeast) (58 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: LuxDre
2nd: Env0id
3rd: YoseFu
4th: Ronin

Spoiler: Bailrigg 2 (June 17th) (United Kingdom) (61 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Magi ,
2nd: Scr7 ,
3rd: SBF ,
4th: FROG

Spoiler: Heatwave (June 16th) (South) (35 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: L.U.C.Y.
2nd: HaKii ,
3rd: Dragonite
4th: Jumbolias ,

Spoiler: June Versus Huntsville (June 17th) (Southeast) (31 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: ChillyChilli
2nd: Thundersz
3rd: DanGR
4th: Mahgnittoc

Spoiler: Gambits & Gimmicks (June 17th) (Southwest) (59 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Asotil ,
2nd: Googs
3rd: Dario
4th: Skylar

Spoiler: One More Game 5 (June 17th) (Tristate) (26 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Vivid ,
2nd: Biddy
3rd: CougyCougs
4th: Bryce

Spoiler: NXNE Game Land (June 17th) (East Canada) (79 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Mistake
2nd: Blacktwins ,
3rd: Yoh ,
4th: SirBeeBee

Spoiler: Meteor Smash Monthly (June 16th) (Southeast) (46 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Mekos
2nd: Donquavious
3rd: Luckywind ,
4th: AK8 ,

Spoiler: Smash it Out 28 Monthly (June 16th) (Tristate) (63 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: San
2nd: iModerz
3rd: Winds
4th: SDX

Spoiler: Character Results, Updated

Bayonetta: 295.5
Cloud: 269
Diddy Kong: 248
Sonic: 178.5
Mario: 178
Sheik: 171.5
Zero Suit Samus: 163
Fox: 148
Rosalina & Luma: 134
Mewtwo: 116.5
Ryu: 103
Meta Knight: 90.5
Mega Man: 80.5
Captain Falcon: 69.5
Marth: 66.5
Luigi: 62.5
Corrin: 62
Villager: 60
Ness: 59.5
Peach: 57
Donkey Kong: 56.5
Olimar: 56
Pikachu: 51
Lucina: 50
Greninja: 46.5
Lucas: 45.5
Bowser: 37.5
R.O.B.: 32
Toon Link: 30
Mr. Game & Watch: 29
Samus: 29
Duck Hunt: 27
Yoshi: 26.5
Ike: 23
Wii Fit Trainer: 20.5
Charizard: 20.5
Lucario: 19
Robin: 18
Little Mac: 18
Pac-Man: 13.5
Roy: 13.5
Link: 13
Palutena: 10.5
Pit: 11
Shulk: 8
King Dedede: 6
Ganondorf: 6
Wario: 6
Falco: 6
Zelda: 5
Jigglypuff: 5
Mii Brawler: 3.5

 

[Das Koopa]

With that, Sheik narrowly falls into 6th for the first time in 24 months.

 

[TDK]

S@X 207 (80 Entrants) (MD/VA)

1st: Pink Fresh
2nd: ZD
3rd: Seagull Joe
4th: Puppeh

 

[Seagull Joe]

CEO 2017 (June 16th-18th) (Florida) (611 Entrants) (Category 5)
1st:

TSM | ZeRo
2nd:

FOX MVG | MKLeo .
3rd:

MSF | Larry Lurr
4th:

NRG | Nairo
5th:

P1 | Captain Zack
5th:

KEN
7th:

MVG | Salem
7th:

Marss
9th:

2GG | Ranai .
9th:

EG | Zinoto
9th:

PG | MVD
9th:

RNG | Dabuz
13th:

Raito
13th:

FS | Wrath
13th:

Noble | Manny
13th:

InC | ZD
17th:

StDx | Falln
17th:

PG | ESAM
17th:

Circa | 6WX
17th:

RvL | Mr. E ,
17th:

Mr. R
17th:

YP | Fatality
17th:

LG | Abadango ,
17th:

FSTEP | Tyrant
25th:

DNG | Kameme ,
25th:

TA | saj.
25th:

InC | Koolaid , (Qualifies for OrionRank 2017)
25th:

FS | Myran
25th:

IMT | ANTi ,
25th:

Noble | Ryo ,
25th:

SWG | Lima
25th:

Rideae
33rd:

2GG | komorikiri ,
33rd:

GoTE | Rival , (Qualifies for OrionRank 2017)
33rd:

cR | Dekillsage (Qualifies for OrionRank 2017)
33rd:

Mute Ace (Qualifies for OrionRank 2017)
33rd:

UG | Deluxemenu (Qualifies for OrionRank 2017)
33rd:

MF | DOOM! (Qualifies for OrionRank 2017)
33rd:

Locus
33rd:

Dath
33rd:

MVG | ScAtt
33rd:

G-FORCE | Oni Day
33rd:

TNF | Child
33rd:

PG | Rich Brown
33rd:

E2C | Darkshad
33rd:

ATR | Xaltis
33rd:

P1 | Tweek
33rd:

Pulse | Ryuga ,
49th:

LGCY | Sharpyzard (Qualifies for OrionRank 2017)
49th:

Fable | 8BitMan
49th:

LingLing
49th:

FG | iTheta (Qualifies for OrionRank 2017)
49th:

Headshot (Qualifies for OrionRank 2017)
49th:

The Wall | Barakas
49th:

LeeT , (Qualifies for OrionRank 2017)
49th:

MVG | dyr
49th:

CSM | stilios (Qualifies for OrionRank 2017)
49th:

OES | Eldin (Qualifies for OrionRank 2017)
49th:

Noble | Sol (Qualifies for OrionRank 2017)
49th:

MF | LH | K9sbruce
49th:

MVG | RoguePenguin
49th:

Seibrik (Qualifies for OrionRank 2017)
49th:

InC | Seagull Joe
49th:

Eanix | Kogarasuma

Spoiler: Sumabato 18 (June 18th) (Kansai) (215 Entrants) (Category 3)

1st: Ron ,
2nd: Shuton
3rd: Edge
4th: HIKARU
5th: 9B
5th: Compact
7th: Earth ,
7th: Masashi
9th: Yuzu
9th: Atelier
9th: Gobu
9th: Chanshu
13th: Sigma
13th: Tatutsuyo
13th: Kisha
13th: Matcha

Spoiler: Mega Smash Mondays 100 (June 12th) (Southern California) (229 Entrants) (Category 3)

1st: KEN
2nd: Kameme ,
3rd: VoiD
4th: MKLeo ,
5th: Captain Zack
5th: Mistake
7th: 6WX
7th: komorikiri ,
9th: Zinoto
9th: Salem
9th: Larry Lurr
9th: Ranai ,
13th: Locus
13th: Javi ,
13th: quiK
13th: Cosmos

Spoiler: COST (June 16th) (Midwest) (90 Entrants) (Category 2)

1st: Cosmos
2nd: Cilvanis
3rd: JeBB ,
4th: colinies
5th: Mac Attk
5th: Geist
7th: Crazycolorz5
7th: Karinole

Spoiler: Game Fest SV 2017 (June 16th) (El Salvador) (104 Entrants) (Category 2)

1st: Vanitas
2nd: Flury
3rd: Tron (
4th: Wolfen ,
5th: Green
5th: Hatreck
7th: Grid
7th: Cormene

Spoiler: Wedn Night Fights 2017 Spring Season 2.6 (June 14th) (Southern California) (43 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: MKLeo ,
2nd: komorikiri ,
3rd: Abadango
4th: KEN

Spoiler: Road to Scenic: Finale (June 17th) (Southeast) (58 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: LuxDre
2nd: Env0id
3rd: YoseFu
4th: Ronin

Spoiler: Bailrigg 2 (June 17th) (United Kingdom) (61 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Magi ,
2nd: Scr7 ,
3rd: SBF ,
4th: FROG

Spoiler: Heatwave (June 16th) (South) (35 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: L.U.C.Y.
2nd: HaKii ,
3rd: Dragonite
4th: Jumbolias ,

Spoiler: June Versus Huntsville (June 17th) (Southeast) (31 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: ChillyChilli
2nd: Thundersz
3rd: DanGR
4th: Mahgnittoc

Spoiler: Gambits & Gimmicks (June 17th) (Southwest) (59 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Asotil ,
2nd: Googs
3rd: Dario
4th: Skylar

Spoiler: One More Game 5 (June 17th) (Tristate) (26 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Vivid ,
2nd: Biddy
3rd: CougyCougs
4th: Bryce

Spoiler: NXNE Game Land (June 17th) (East Canada) (79 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Mistake
2nd: Blacktwins ,
3rd: Yoh ,
4th: SirBeeBee

Spoiler: Meteor Smash Monthly (June 16th) (Southeast) (46 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Mekos
2nd: Donquavious
3rd: Luckywind ,
4th: AK8 ,

Spoiler: Smash it Out 28 Monthly (June 16th) (Tristate) (63 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: San
2nd: iModerz
3rd: Winds
4th: SDX

Spoiler: Character Results, Updated

Bayonetta: 295.5
Cloud: 269
Diddy Kong: 248
Sonic: 178.5
Mario: 178
Sheik: 171.5
Zero Suit Samus: 163
Fox: 148
Rosalina & Luma: 134
Mewtwo: 116.5
Ryu: 103
Meta Knight: 90.5
Mega Man: 80.5
Captain Falcon: 69.5
Marth: 66.5
Luigi: 62.5
Corrin: 62
Villager: 60
Ness: 59.5
Peach: 57
Donkey Kong: 56.5
Olimar: 56
Pikachu: 51
Lucina: 50
Greninja: 46.5
Lucas: 45.5
Bowser: 37.5
R.O.B.: 32
Toon Link: 30
Mr. Game & Watch: 29
Samus: 29
Duck Hunt: 27
Yoshi: 26.5
Ike: 23
Wii Fit Trainer: 20.5
Charizard: 20.5
Lucario: 19
Robin: 18
Little Mac: 18
Pac-Man: 13.5
Roy: 13.5
Link: 13
Palutena: 10.5
Pit: 11
Shulk: 8
King Dedede: 6
Ganondorf: 6
Wario: 6
Falco: 6
Zelda: 5
Jigglypuff: 5
Mii Brawler: 3.5

Seibrik used vs me and he used in bracket vs others. ZD used vs Ksev and I used vs a in bracket.

 

[PK Bash]

I'm still not seeing how Sonic is overrated. I need a detailed explanation.

He has answers to shielding with his grab. KEN lands a lot of grabs with Sonic so I don't know where some of you get this idea that you can just shield against him. Two solid aerials (fair and bair) that are good at contesting the opponent in the air. Spin dash and Spin charge both have intangibility frames. Spin dash can be cancelled. Spin charge is significantly faster than spin dash. Then you have his ground speed which makes it easy for him to close the distance thus making it very difficult to properly space against him while simultaneously making it easy for him to retreat if he needs to do so.

His advantage state is pretty good. Can rack up damage off of grabs and spin dash/charge. The only thing he's really lacking in advantage are low risk kill options that kill early.

His disadvantage is pretty solid but is also a bit stage dependent. He can mix up his landings with things like Spring, Spin shot, Spin charge and Spin dash. His recovery is also pretty good aside from his up B not having a hitbox. His disadvantage is decent on stages with no platforms. On stages with platforms it's significantly better.

He has a really good MU spread. He has results. He has good wins on top 15 players in the world and his loses are almost always at the hand of a top 15 player.

How is he overrated?

EDIT: And he has an 11 frame dash length. That's kinda silly for a character with his ground mobility.

I can only speak for my own perspective.
Sonic is obviously top 10. Whether or not he is actually top tier is another question entirely. (People’s “top tier” is often far too broad and encompasses characters with massive disparity between them.)
He’s overrated because people insist he is top 5. Some people insist he is top 3. To put it quite bluntly, he’s not even close. His neutral is probably the most overrated thing about him. Everyone keeps saying “Sonic has one of the best neutrals in the game”, and if ZeRo keeps saying it then, hey, it must be true right, but to the best of my knowledge, nobody has ever sat down and explained why Sonic’s neutral is apparently so good. Now if somebody wants to tell me why Sonic’s neutral is among the best, I’m all ears and genuinely would like to hear it, but if you were to ask me, I would tell you his neutral is absolute ****e because his best options are quite committal and relatively simple to counter for most characters, he has absolutely nothing for pressuring shields bar his grab and he has very limited mixup potential. His neutral is mostly reliant on (admittedly very strong) whiff-punishing, yet still people push aggressive buttons in his face. Despite his ability to force reactions with Spin Dash, do you actually need to go out on a limb and expose yourself? If he commits to Spin Dash, he ultimately has two options – release or cancel into shield. This creates a yomi situation where Sonic’s opponent actually has the advantage, assuming they keep a calm head. You won’t predict right every time but as long as you consider your shield and don’t press stupid buttons, more often than not you will win the situation, or bare minimum, ensure Sonic does not win. You can’t just press shield forever, but intelligent use of shield is difficult for Sonic. Because if Sonic spins into your shield, that’s your advantage. If he hits your shield, he has three options. He can cross you up, he can jump, or he can turn around on your shield. All three put Sonic’s opponent into advantage state because either Sonic will have to turn around with no hitbox, or he will put himself into a landing situation and Sonic just can’t land for ****. (If he’s getting away with using Spring and landing safely, well, that’s on you, he shouldn’t be.)

Not sure if his advantage compensates for his neutral and I don’t think his disadvantage state is good enough considering how often he must risk it in neutral in order to do anything.

He does have excellent results, overall very respectable results and wins, he is one of the best characters, but how often does solo Sonic make top 8 at major events? The highest placing Sonic is usually a Cloud main. I know KEN got 5th recently in the US and that he dominates Japan, but it’s still something that bothers me about this “top tier”.

But yeah, very good character, lower end of top 10 certainly, but people do overrate him. Usually people who don’t know how to fight him and feel compelled to push lots of aggressive buttons even though that’s exactly what Sonic wants. His neutral is the main thing that is overrated as hell to be honest. Once you’ve figured out his neutral, yeah he’s still top 10 but he’s nothing crazy.

So yeah that’s why I, personally, feel Sonic is overrated. Still top 10, but overrated.

Something noteworthy, however, is his very strong recent record against Cloud. It does make me wonder if Sonic has an advantageous mu against him, but I am far from well-versed in that mu and we could still see counter-development on Cloud’s end. Nonetheless, it has caught my interest.

 

[soniczx123]

I'm still not seeing how Sonic is overrated. I need a detailed explanation.

He has answers to shielding with his grab. KEN lands a lot of grabs with Sonic so I don't know where some of you get this idea that you can just shield against him. Two solid aerials (fair and bair) that are good at contesting the opponent in the air. Spin dash and Spin charge both have intangibility frames. Spin dash can be cancelled. Spin charge is significantly faster than spin dash. Then you have his ground speed which makes it easy for him to close the distance thus making it very difficult to properly space against him while simultaneously making it easy for him to retreat if he needs to do so.

His advantage state is pretty good. Can rack up damage off of grabs and spin dash/charge. The only thing he's really lacking in advantage are low risk kill options that kill early.

His disadvantage is pretty solid but is also a bit stage dependent. He can mix up his landings with things like Spring, Spin shot, Spin charge and Spin dash. His recovery is also pretty good aside from his up B not having a hitbox. His disadvantage is decent on stages with no platforms. On stages with platforms it's significantly better.

He has a really good MU spread. He has results. He has good wins on top 15 players in the world and his loses are almost always at the hand of a top 15 player.

How is he overrated?

EDIT: And he has an 11 frame dash length. That's kinda silly for a character with his ground mobility.

Spin Charge does not have any intangibility frames and Spin Dash only has 6 frames of invincibility frames at the start. This is that at a certain range, it's completely obsolete. It's mainly used to anti-air or eat single hit projectiles like Charge Shot or Shadow Ball.

 

[Bowserboy3]

I think we can all agree Sonic is still top tier.

The phrase "top 10" probably needs to be dropped with this kind of discussion. Top tier can range from anywhere to having around 10 character to possibly 15 characters if we're being generous.

He's top tier, but I doubt he's the top 5 figure he once had his foot in the door for.

I made my own personal list a few hours back actually, and I put Sonic at 8th/9th personally

Infact, for the sake of discussion, here's my opinion on the top tier (in spoilers to keep it away from those not interested)

Spoiler: My opinion on the top tier

//, ,,/,/,, ,

Diddy, Bayonetta and Cloud for me are all incredible enough that it's pretty much a crapshoot deciding which one is best. You can agrue one has the best results, one might have better frame data, one might have better confirms, one might have a better future ahead etc, whatever; they're all booming right now and I would be happiest seeing all of these as equals. If I am looking at things on an absolute whole basis including frame data, confirms, results, usage etc, I'd probably put Cloud first right now, but as I say, you can argue for the others, so again, I think they're all best as equals.

I'm very positive about Rosalina at the moment personally, and normally I'd rank Sheik at 4th, but when you combine my own Rosa-positivity with Sheik's overall lull in top placements recently, Sheik slips to 5th for me right now. ZeRo ranking Rosalina in 3rd is also a good enough excuse for her to be this high for me too sooooo...

The next groups of characters I can not totally decide on so they come in pairs.

Fox and ZSS are pretty much equal in my books; both are super swift and have amazing power/game winning options that can turn around matches in an instant, but come with some exploitable weaknesses to keep them balanced out. Without them they'd be both much higher IMO.

Sonic and Mewtwo are next because I honestly don't see any of the characters below them being deserving of being higher than them. Mario maaaaaaybe, but eh, not seeing it right now. Both characters are really good but have had a but of a drop in tournament results as of late.

Marth and Lucina are next. Marth is one of my main characters, and I don't see him higher than anyone above him at all. Him and Lucina don't really have any outright broken tools that are easy to abuse or take advantage of. They're just amazingly solid, and have a fantastic MU spread. Pretty similar to Mario, who's below them on the basis that he relys more on the player's skill more than Marth and Lucina.

Ryu is lumped at the end because I don't think he's high tier but he still hasn't really done enough to be above Mario and Marth or Lucina, whom I feel me may deserve to be higher than if he ever proves it.

Characters that would come just out of reach of being top tier and are the next best thing for me include , , and , for various reasons, including many local reasons. Tbh is still super dumb and I feel people sleep on him in general. Don't think he's top tier but I think he's one of the better high tiers like the four I mentioned.

 

[Yikarur]

https://twitter.com/TaDavidID/status/876220213632671744

Das Koopa
I have no time to format that into Smashboards standards sry

 

[|RK|]

Speaking of Sonic, I've personally found running away and throwing out backwards facing hitboxes is extremely useful against him. Dash grab and spindash beaten at the same time, no need to guess. And I've done that with Kirby's bair - I can only imagine how useful Cloud's is for this purpose.

Eventually you run out of stage, but that's when you start playing 50/50s with shield and pivot grabs (btw, Tsu vs KEN is the most exceptional use of pivot grab in the Sonic MU I've ever seen. Idk why no one else abuses it like that). Instead, I see people not respecting the fact that they're playing Sonic and trying to box him in as much as possible. Then their (unnecessary) aerials are eaten by spindash's early invincibility.

Honestly, I feel like people don't think of running away from a character unless they're obviously dangerous, like Ganon or Lucario (even though it's more effective to constantly pressure the latter). Kirby gets away with a lot because of this (Falcons just realized they can play for the time out, it seems), and honestly, so does Sonic.

People keep trying to play their own game, instead of just running away and throwing out moves. Giving yourself space to react to approaches, rather than consistently putting yourself in the position where Sonic actually does have a top neutral (when you're trying to chase him down and fight him).

 

[Rizen]

@People who say Nairo carries ZSS: he obviously adds a lot to her score but you have Marss placing 7th with her here and...

CEO 2017 (June 16th-18th) (Florida) (611 Entrants) (Category 5)

4th:

NRG | Nairo
5th:

P1 | Captain Zack
5th:

KEN
7th:

MVG | Salem
7th:

Marss

Character Results,

Bayonetta: 295.5
Cloud: 269
Diddy Kong: 248
Sonic: 178.5
Mario: 178
Sheik: 171.5
Zero Suit Samus: 163
Fox: 148
Rosalina & Luma: 134
Mewtwo: 116.5
Ryu: 103
Meta Knight: 90.5
Mega Man: 80.5
Captain Falcon: 69.5
Marth: 66.5

Her overall results ^ are just shy of Sheik's at 7th place, much better than Ryu, Marth, MK, etc.

 

[ARGHETH]

https://twitter.com/TaDavidID/status/876220213632671744

Das Koopa
I have no time to format that into Smashboards standards sry

Well, I'm bored enough

CCECombo (89 entrants) (Germany)
1. LoNg0uw
2. Schligger
3. Jbandrew
4. Purple~H

EDIT: I can't read.

 

[TTTTTsd]

The one thing that frustrates me beyond anything else is how people get so personally invested in discussions about their characters. You'll notice people who believe that their character is better or worse than popular perception hitting that "Like" button or agreeing with posts in support of their position even if the logic contained in those posts is completely bull**** or evidently fallacious. Main bias is the worst thing about having a discussion with anyone about this game. It's honestly so disappointing seeing it page after page after page, years after the game came out.

Yeah, cool, you main your character, love your character, know a lot about your character, fine, we get it. That experience and love should be leveraged for the greater good of community understanding, and bringing that perspective to analysis is not only acceptable but encouraged. But don't let it blind you to objective reality. Like, good God, these are pixels on a screen. You don't need to call ZeRo's entire tier list garbage just because the premises set by the list don't set up your main for an agreeable position. Similarly, you don't need to praise the list because it did put your character in the right spot, as though it's some kind of personal victory.

This post was aimed at no one in particular, and also at everyone in particular.

While I don't disagree with the overall notion, I don't think it's good to downplay just how much character passion can drive people to just....do better. I agree it can hurt reflexive thinking and it's important to be aware of that, but character attachment goes a long way in fostering improvement and dedication. Core-A Gaming did a very good video on picking characters in fighters that I think really explains it better:

Spoiler

 

[MistressRemilia]

Well, I'm bored enough

CCECombo (89 entrants) (France)
1. LoNg0uw
2. Schligger
3. Jbandrew
4. Purple~H

This is not a french tournament, but a german tournament.

 

[TDK]

https://twitter.com/LocusSK/status/877641850919698432

Add Locus to the list of players picking up Bayo.

 

[ARGHETH]

https://twitter.com/LocusSK/status/877641850919698432

Add Locus to the list of players picking up Bayo.

He's using her for characters "that need to play lame like sonic".

Also, Locus bayo incoming, I've stressed enough trying to play against sonic. 😇

— Locus (@LocusSK) June 17, 2017

 

[Ziodyne 21]

He's using her for characters "that need to play lame like sonic".

Also, Locus bayo incoming, I've stressed enough trying to play against sonic. 😇

— Locus (@LocusSK) June 17, 2017

Don't most characters want/need to play the lame game vs Ryu . Unless you enjoy losing stocks to TSK's at 70%..

 

[Yonder]

He's using her for characters "that need to play lame like sonic".

Also, Locus bayo incoming, I've stressed enough trying to play against sonic. 😇

— Locus (@LocusSK) June 17, 2017

I swear top players picking up Bayo or saying they will (Zero, Locus, Aba..who actually did) is a Freudian defense mechanism at this point. Just buckle down and learn your character better like Zero did with Diddy instead of looking at the top spot of the tier list. Bayo secondaries hasn't benefited anyone as of yet. Yep including Aba, Bayo has not won him any tournies yet or covered any significant matchups. I know Aba struggles vs Cloud the most, but Bayo hasn't been cutting it.

Idk. I don't think Bayo is the right choice for Sonic.

 

[ぱみゅ]

What I find the funniest part is that they say they'll pick her up "for certain matchups", but the listed ones are usually not matchups she wins convincingly.
Aba struggles with Diddy, her one worst matchup.
Locus said Sonic, but the MU very even.
Tweek doesn't really cover any bad matchup when he uses her.

 

[ARGHETH]

Locus said Sonic, but the MU very even.

Probably better than with Ryu, though, and a lot less frustrating.

 

[C0rvus]

Isn't Bayo prone to being lamed out as well? At least when she's not camping herself. Maybe that's the idea. That's how I would play that MU in theory; tack on damage with nair guns, chill on the platforms, witch time commitments for a punish.

 

[Illuminose]

the thing is that you can't really pick up a character to beat sonic convincingly, at least not these days. your best options, matchup-wise, are likely cloud, rosalina, and corrin. rosa is hard to pick up as a secondary and will get shredded by the top sonics, and you need a really high level cloud/corrin to compete with top sonics these days. you're generally best off picking a character you are more comfortable with that has an even-ish mu, and bayo fits that. bayo is also very good against character that play patient because she is able to do a lot without really committing, making her an ideal pick in some of those mus. ryu is not nearly as good at playing patient.

for aba, bayo mostly allows him some consistency. he could use bayo vs diddy if he wanted (that matchup is even), though he tends to perform well enough with mk that it seems unnecessary. for example, he can use bayo against heavies (he used bayo vs tosshi and gungnir at umebura jm), link (he beat T with bayo at umebura jm), fox (he played larry with his bayo at one of the weeklies and obliterated him), cloud (he won his first set against leo with bayo), ryu (he used ryu against locus and did well)...characters that might not even beat mewtwo, but have an explosive factor against him because he is so light that makes those matchups risky to fight in tournament. in this sense, i think bayo makes a lot of sense for him because bayo can serve s a consistent answer to an array of mus that are risky or bad for mewtwo, alongside meta knight to lock down a few other matchups.

tweek's bayo is primarily a playstyle change and provides a different option for certain matchups. really, you should never have to counterpick with cloud, in any matchup, but there comes times where you just aren't on point with cloud, or maybe you're getting gimped a lot. the combo of bayo and cloud is also lethal because you can fight almost every matchup in the game with a matchup advantage (as they are the best two characters in the game) without any notable holes.

as long as you put in the lab time to learn combos, bayo is not a very difficult character to play with good fundamentals. she has multiple naturally effective, intuitive tools for neutral and punish game, and is adaptable to both aggressive and defensive playstyles. it is impossible to hard counterpick her as well. she's actually a pretty ideal secondary when you think about it.

 

[|RK|]

In theory, but that kinda goes back to the character selection thing. Bayo doesn't naturally mesh with... a lot of people. It's kind of interesting. On top of that, top Bayos believe even her winning MUs - or at least Fox - take a lot of time investment to play well. I don't think she's that ideal of a secondary in practice. Nowhere near Cloud tier, anyways.

 

[NairWizard]

I question the value of a Cloud secondary. What Cloud secondaries actually place high at majors? ZeRo's Cloud doesn't get him anywhere. Komo and Leo basically co-main Cloud and put a lot of investment into the character. Tweek mains the character. Who else? There's Mr. R, I guess, who uses him for the Rosalina matchup, but otherwise Cloud secondaries don't get results beyond a certain level. In Japan this is even truer. I'd much rather have a DK or Bowser secondary; Cloud is difficult to use correctly.

 

[Minordeth]

Everything I read about Bayo always comes with an asterisk that reads: *until you get to top level play.

Like, yeah, Bayo counter play hasn't trickled down to even high level play consistently, so her tools still work pretty well.

Also, as has been demonstrated time and time again, top level players minimize their characters' weak points. Nairo makes you think that ZSS can easily work around the fact that she has to rely on perfectly executed Nairs by having the best, most intimidating CQC game on earth.

Zero overcomes Diddy's relative lack of burst damage by being insane at the ledge and by being oppressive in neutral, so that he can keep damage constant.

Dabuz overcomes Rosa's poor physics-based MUs by having a top 5 neutral and being smarter than you.

And really, Salem makes Bayo look like she can actually have a functioning neutral at top level by stuffing his opponents game plan. When that doesn't work Bayo gets murder by characters with better burst KO options or better neutrals.*





*So like three or four characters.

 

[HoSmash4]

One of Bayos strengths is being abused as a stage counterpick.

We going Battlefield? Catch this Bayo stay woke

 

[Yikarur]

I've never seen this "stage counterpick" thing and I don't agree with it either.

 

[Laken64]

There's Mr. R, I guess, who uses him for the Rosalina matchup[/QUOTE

Mr R has started to use cloud more this season beyond the rosa mu and it's got him pretty darn close to beating Zero than his Sheik (and almost taking a major over him as well placing 2nd at CEO Dreamland and Royal flush). His cloud is legit as a secondary in my book.

 

[Bowserboy3]

I've never seen this "stage counterpick" thing and I don't agree with it either.

Counterpicking your character based on your stage option is completely a thing.

If for example, I am playing as Rosalina and lose game 1, and somebody who doesn't ban Lylat against me, then in most cases (if it's not a MU I dislike, like Ness, Luigi etc) I'm switching to Bayonetta.

In the same vein if somebody leaves Battlefield open, Marth is much more attractive as a character option for me.

I think it does mainly tie in with who you feel most comfortable with on said stages though. I'm personally much more comfortable with those characters on those stages in particular.

 

[|RK|]

Aba's Bayo on Lylat has been successful.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

ZeRo's Cloud doesn't get him anywhere.

Specifics, please?

 

[verbatim]

I question the value of a Cloud secondary. What Cloud secondaries actually place high at majors?

Doubles.

As an aside, the only player from the western hemisphere to beat KEN with cloud has been Nairo.

 

[TDK]

WNF Spring 2.7 (60 Entrants) (SoCal)

1st: VoiD
2nd: K9Sbruce
3rd: Nicko
4th: S2H

 

[ismaaa]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESapAGXAnTE&t=109s pikachu wins against , , well with esam's opinion pikachu is indeed a secret top tier?

 

[Rizen]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESapAGXAnTE&t=109s pikachu wins against , , well with esam's opinion pikachu is indeed a secret top tier?

In ESAM's opinion is the (Brawl) of SSB4.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Its common knowledge that ESAM has always been..how you would say .. been highly, some would say even unrealistically optimistic about his main.

It seems that his recent good results has once again rekindled his optimisim

Near the end of last year where ESAM made a 1.1.6 Tier list he placed Pika the most conservatively I had ever seen him. But keep in mind this was when he was in the middle of a pretty big slump for him


ESAM Tier list from Dec 2016

Now that he is getting some results He is making a MU chart like Rizen said would almost be comparable to MK in Brawl

Then again you can say he is in the minority of pro player's who does not try to downplay or underrate their main at least

 

[ARISTOS]

Its common knowledge that ESAM has always been..how you would say .. been highly, some would say even unreasonabally optimistic about his main.

It seems that his recent good results has once again fed into this optimisim.


Then again you can say he is in the minority of pro player's who does not try to downplay or underate his main

Depends on common perception.

If character is percieved as top tier, the top player responds: "not that good". On the opposite end, if public perception surrounding the character is mediocre, the top player responds: "underrated"