Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[The-Technique]

Sonic is overrated, ZSS is overrated, Villager is overrated...

And now Ranai finished at 9th, same as Dabuz, while there are 2 ZSSs in top 8 and a Sonic in winner's side.

Maybe this can be called the Smashboard curse?

 

[Wintermelon43]

Sonic is overrated, ZSS is overrated, Villager is overrated...

And now Ranai finished at 9th, same as Dabuz, while there are 2 ZSSs in top 8 and a Sonic in winner's side.

Maybe this can be called the Smashboard curse?

Can you guys start calling Jigglypuff overrated?

 

[Game7a1]

Can you guys start calling Jigglypuff overrated?

It's not going to work with Puff. Or rather, you're a bit late with requesting that. A Puff main just got 49th at CEO, and another one got 25th at this past stacked MSM.
(Now if Dol can do something similar at today's Sumbato, that'd be icing on the cake.)

 

[The-Technique]

Can you guys start calling Jigglypuff overrated?

Read you loud and clear.

*ahem*

Jigglypuff belongs in her own bottom tier.

Now we wait...

 

[|RK|]

Sonic is overrated, ZSS is overrated, Villager is overrated...

And now Ranai finished at 9th, same as Dabuz, while there are 2 ZSSs in top 8 and a Sonic in winner's side.

Maybe this can be called the Smashboard curse?

I mean, they aren't trash characters. I expect them to do well sometimes. All three are still overrated, IMO.

 

[my_T]

To be fair, Sonic and ZSS have been doing well for quite some time. Don't know where all this Sonic is overrated stuff is coming from. I don't see it.

Villager however has not been doing well. He's been on the decline for quite some time now. Villager's not bad but he's definitely the one that's overrated among these three. As for his 9th place finish at CEO, well, you can only keep Ranai out of top 16 for so long.

 

[ぱみゅ]

I actually have to disagree. ZeRo gets all sorts of subtle reads (Ally and Fatality get flashier ones) that aren't necessarily character-based (though Diddy helps).

Diddy creates a lot of traps and situations where he forces you to take an action.
He reads one out of 3 or 4 possible actions, and guessing wrong will usually go unpunished.
Of course ZeRo is a top player and knows how to read opponents, but keeping an advantage state or setups to limit options makes it way easier.

Honestly from watching Zinoto's Cram School video, I think people genuinely let Diddy players - including ZeRo - get away with too much. For example, the landing lag on a shff fair is somewhere around 25 frames. Most characters can *charge* usmash that as a punish if it does anything but hit, but ZeRo gets to use that frequently (even against Ally) because he knows it will hit/they won't punish in time. Same with ZeRo Monkey Flipping directly into characters like Ryu at percents where he could die because he's conditioned his opponent.

I didn't say otherwise. I even agreed that Fair (and by extension, Monkey Flip) has a lot of counterplay.
Bair is an underused tool though. it's understandable because the hitbox doesn't linger and it doesn't have much range... but its frame data makes it a very safe move.

ZeRo actually does quite a bit of unsafe **** because he *is* outplaying his opponent. Diddy just isn't nearly as flashy as Mario is when he does it (and things like Smash attack reads are way less safe for Diddy).

I won't comment further on this because it would be circling over the same point.
"Does Zero outplay the opponents so much he can make a lot of mistakes, or Diddy has strong tools that he can control a game and win despite bad habits?" That is a question I don't want to look too much into.

Diddy is still unquestionably a very good character, but I do think that people think a *little* too highly of him.

No character in this game is truly broken anymore and every single one of them comes with a good set of flaws. I (and a good chunk of people) consider him the best character in the game... but keep in mind the bar isn't set too high in the first place.

^This one right there might be the most important point I made in this post.

EDIT: Also, ~20% conversions isn't that much damage, IMO. And bair is really good for a cross up, but honestly doesn't kill that early. Plus, it's lack of range compared to fair leaves it very underused - since Diddy's poor airspeed generally prefers fair in most situations.

I already talked about Bair, and I know its limitations, but seriously, go look at a set of ZeRo vs a Heavy and you might realize how strong it truly is.
The 20 damage thing was a rough estimate, but he has combos at all % and then he can chose between continuing the combo or going for 50-50s on the advantage state.

 

[TDK]

Sumabato 18 (215 Entrants) (Japan)

1st: Ron
2nd: Shuton
3rd: Edge
4th: HIKARU
5th: 9B
5th: Compact
7th: Masashi
7th: Earth
9th: Chanshu
9th: Yuzu
9th: Atelier
9th: Gobu
13th: Tatsuyuyo
13th: Kisha
13th: Sigma
13th: Matcha

Spoiler: rest of top 32

17th: Tsu~
17th: Aki
17th: Lucia
17th: Kazami
17th: Shachi
17th: Mangalitza
17th: Takera
17th: NGA
25th: Egapon
25th: Rattsu
25th: Nau
25th: Kuro
25th: Selcia
25th: Suma
25th: Agehasama
25th: Parme

Has the entrant number to warrant top 32, but I could kinda see this being a top 16 so I split it up.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

I don't care what the PGR says, KEN is top 10 in the world. Phenomenal showing that set, especially when you consider he's never taken so much as a game from ZeRo before.

ZeRo 3-2 KEN

also someone post in the CCI please

Yw TDK.

Also, KEN is simply amazing. Just last week, Zero dominated KEN in their set, but in just a week, KEN adapted to him and made this set a LOT closer than previous ones.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

Meteor Smash Monthly - June 16 (46 entrants) (North Carolina)

1. Mekos

2. TMG I Donquavious

Mekos also won doubles too!

Singles Bracket: http://challonge.com/MSM061717

Doubles Bracket: http://challonge.com/MSM061717Dubs

Playlist of matches: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLfiQ7FMgLqYsj-sCBER4wGZpIgGU_NFNT

Yes

LUCAS NATION REPRESENT!!!!

 

[ShadowGuy1]

CEO 2017 (611 entrants) (Orlando, Florida)

1. ZeRo
2. MKLeo
3. Larry Lurr
4. Nairo
5. Captain Zack
5. KEN
7. Salem
7. Marss
9. Ranai
9. Zinoto
9. MVD
9. Dabuz
13. Raito
13. Wrath
13. Manny
13. ZD
17. ESAM
17. Falln
17. 6WX
17. Mr. E
17. Mr. R
17. Fatality
17. Abadango
17. Tyrant
25. Kameme
25. saj.
25. Koolaid
25. Myran
25. ANTi
25. Ryo
25. Rideae
25. Lima
33. Komorikiri
33. Rival
33. Dekillsage
33. Mute Ace
33. Deluxemenu
33. DOOM!
33. Dath
33. Locus
33. Scatt
33. Darkshad
33. Rich Brown
33. Xaltis
33. Ryuga
33. Child
33. Tweek
33. Day
49. Barakas
49. Sharpyzard
49. iTheta
49. Lingling
49. 8BitMan
49. Headshot
49. LeeT
49. dyr
49. Stilios
49. Eldin
49. Sol
49. K9sbruce
49. RoguePenguin
49. Seibrik
49. Seagull Joe
49. Kogarasuma


Notable Winners:

 

[Ziodyne 21]

CEO 2017 (611 entrants) (Orlando, Florida)

1. ZeRo
2. MKLeo
3. Larry Lurr
4. Nairo
5. Captain Zack
5. KEN
7. Salem
7. Marss
9. Ranai
9. Zinoto
9. MVD
9. Dabuz
13. Raito
13. Wrath
13. Manny
13. ZD
17. ESAM
17. Falln
17. 6WX
17. Mr. E
17. Mr. R
17. Fatality
17. Abadango
17. Tyrant
25. Kameme
25. saj.
25. Koolaid
25. Myran
25. ANTi
25. Ryo
25. Rideae
25. Lima
33. Komorikiri
33. Rival
33. Dekillsage
33. Mute Ace
33. Deluxemenu
33. DOOM!
33. Dath
33. Locus
33. Scatt
33. Darkshad
33. Rich Brown
33. Xaltis
33. Ryuga
33. Child
33. Tweek
33. Day
49. Barakas
49. Sharpyzard
49. iTheta
49. Lingling
49. 8BitMan
49. Headshot
49. LeeT
49. dyr
49. Stilios
49. Eldin
49. Sol
49. K9sbruce
49. RoguePenguin
49. Seibrik
49. Seagull Joe
49. Kogarasuma


Notable Winners:

I would say was a winner to since this was a S-tier tournament where Diddy mains other than ZeRo did pretty well (Zinoto and MVD coming in 9th)

can also be considered winners for there suprising success too

We can even consider due to Ranai having one of his stronger erfomances at a major in a while inculding a very impressive 3-0 over Dabuz...and seemed soooo close to making it to top 8 but got reverse 3-0'd by Marss


As for losers....

(partially due to Ally DQ'ing himself)

to a lesser degree as Komo and Tweek got elimminated at 33rd when they were heavily seated to make top 8 themselves

 

[|RK|]

Diddy creates a lot of traps and situations where he forces you to take an action.
He reads one out of 3 or 4 possible actions, and guessing wrong will usually go unpunished.
Of course ZeRo is a top player and knows how to read opponents, but keeping an advantage state or setups to limit options makes it way easier.


I didn't say otherwise. I even agreed that Fair (and by extension, Monkey Flip) has a lot of counterplay.
Bair is an underused tool though. it's understandable because the hitbox doesn't linger and it doesn't have much range... but its frame data makes it a very safe move.


I won't comment further on this because it would be circling over the same point.
"Does Zero outplay the opponents so much he can make a lot of mistakes, or Diddy has strong tools that he can control a game and win despite bad habits?" That is a question I don't want to look too much into.


No character in this game is truly broken anymore and every single one of them comes with a good set of flaws. I (and a good chunk of people) consider him the best character in the game... but keep in mind the bar isn't set too high in the first place.

^This one right there might be the most important point I made in this post.


I already talked about Bair, and I know its limitations, but seriously, go look at a set of ZeRo vs a Heavy and you might realize how strong it truly is.
The 20 damage thing was a rough estimate, but he has combos at all % and then he can chose between continuing the combo or going for 50-50s on the advantage state.

I'm not going to deny that Diddy has strong trapping tools, but I will maintain this - if ZeRo is the only one capable of consistently making these types of subtle reads, it must hold that these tools are not powerful enough by themselves to force these situations. So I'm going to say it is mostly ZeRo creating these situations. Watching him ledgetrapping with Lucina only adds to my point.

Also, it's not bad habits or mistakes. I'm saying ZeRo legitimately makes reads. KEN vs ZeRo is a good example of this - even simple fairs were reads that could be punished (much more Monkey Flips...). I'm curious to know what types of reads players like Ally need to make consistently that ZeRo doesn't.

Bair... it's very good, but frame data alone doesn't make a move safe. It's lack of range is *haunting* with that poor airspeed. Many characters with range can stuff it before it gets near them. It's excellent for what it does, but I feel like it's used optimally as is.

And it's killpower... Again KEN vs ZeRo this morning. I watched KEN survive two bars at 130%+. And relatively close to the edge, too. I can't agree whatsoever.

As for Diddy's conversions... I actually just played K9's Diddy (and Sheik). Maybe it's because Kirby is floaty, but 20% sounds entirely accurate.

 

[Laken64]

As for losers....

(partially due to Ally DQ'ing himself)

Even to a lesser degree as Komo and Tweek got elimminated at 33rd when they were heavy contenders to make top 8 themselves

You can add too to an extent none in top 16 aside from leo using marth at least once.

CEO 2017 (611 entrants) (Orlando, Florida)

1. ZeRo
2. MKLeo
3. Larry Lurr
4. Nairo
5. Captain Zack
5. KEN
7. Salem
7. Marss
9. Ranai
9. Zinoto
9. MVD
9. Dabuz
13. Raito
13. Wrath
13. Manny
13. ZD
17. ESAM
17. Falln
17. 6WX
17. Mr. E
17. Mr. R
17. Fatality
17. Abadango
17. Tyrant
25. Kameme
25. saj.
25. Koolaid
25. Myran
25. ANTi
25. Ryo
25. Rideae
25. Lima
33. Komorikiri
33. Rival
33. Dekillsage
33. Mute Ace
33. Deluxemenu
33. DOOM!
33. Dath
33. Locus
33. Scatt
33. Darkshad
33. Rich Brown
33. Xaltis
33. Ryuga
33. Child
33. Tweek
33. Day
49. Barakas
49. Sharpyzard
49. iTheta
49. Lingling
49. 8BitMan
49. Headshot
49. LeeT
49. dyr
49. Stilios
49. Eldin
49. Sol
49. K9sbruce
49. RoguePenguin
49. Seibrik
49. Seagull Joe
49. Kogarasuma


Notable Winners:

So this raps up the season for the PGRv3 what are your guys predictions on whos top 10, whos rising up and falling down or off?

 

[TDK]

It took two and a half years, but Mii Swordfighter finally places.

NXNE Game Land (79 Entrants) (Canada)
1st: Mistake
2nd: Blacktwins
3rd: Yoh
4th: SirBeeBee

Meteor Smash Monthly (46 Entrants) (North Carolina?)

1st: Mekos
2nd: Donquavious
3rd: Luckywind
4th: AK8

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

Yep it's in North Carolina.

 

[ARISTOS]

So this raps up the season for the PGRv3 what are your guys predictions on whos top 10, whos rising up and falling down or off?

Off the top of my head:

As a guess, Day, Pugwest, False, Vinnie, Tyrant and Taiheita (not quite as sure) are all very likely to fall off the PGR. Mew2King should be off, but they may be lax in that ranking. Trela is retired, so he'd be off as well. Don't know what they are going to do about Hyuga.


In the reverse, Shuton, Tsu, T, Raito, Hikaru and Elegant are all shoo-ins. Javi may make a late placed run. FOW will see a return to the list, as also 9B.



ANTi, Dath, and Mr. E will all see serious drops.

A lot of new players blew up this season so there's gonna be a lot of shuffling.

Also Kirihara should be top 10 IMO but since he hasn't been to as much I feel he's going to get underplaced.

 

[Lord Dio]

can also be considered winners for there suprising success too

Leo's performance is the only thing that holds corrin back fro mfailing today, as Ryuga attented but didn't do well.

So this raps up the season for the PGRv3 what are your guys predictions on whos top 10, whos rising up and falling down or off?

Aristos says my thoughts pretty well, except I think M2k may hang on at around 50-45 due to his win against ANTi and high placing at smash n splash. He might hang on.

I also think that ESAM might, I say MIGHT, drop a bit. Unsure at the moment. I'd be willing to bet on VoiD dropping a little bit.
As for rising, komo will rise, imo into top 10 (either das koopa or tdk, forget which, has him at #7). Salem and/or CaptainZack will rise into top 10. I fully believe we will have at least one of those two in the top 10.
Also Fatality will definitely rise to be top 20.
Locus should also rise quite a good deal.
I think Wrath and/or 6WX are on the v2 PGR? If so Wath could hang onto a spot at the bottom.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

"Doing well"? How does one define this?

 

[Bowserboy3]

Just gonna leave this here because I am a Rosalina player and like sharing all of the new jank discovered about her.

TL;DR: Rosalina goes into the z-axis during her running turnaround animation.

She's a totally fair and balanced character, I swear.

Fair and balanced~ pic.twitter.com/dn7UBZgyQY

— 🌀6WX🌀Wes🌀 (@6WXWes) June 18, 2017

 

[Lord Dio]

Took a look at the last PGR, and here's the summarization of what I think will happen

Spoiler

Here's everyone I personally think will drop off:
Hyuga, Taheita, Ryo, Darkshad, Trela, False, saj, Pugwest, Day, dyr, Nietono, Vinnie, Tyrant

Here's who I think MIGHT drop off, but have at least a small chance of staying:
Mew2king, Pink Fresh, 6WX, Ned, MVD, Wrath, falln, Dath, ScAtt, WaDi, Rich Brown

Here's everyone on the v2 that I am positive will stay (v2's Top 20 excluded):
Kirihara, Locus, Samsora, Fatality, ESAM, Earth

I believe that anyone on the second list who remains on the PGR will either drop a good deal, or remain at the bottom if they were there in the PGR v2. The same goes for those on the first list.

For the third list, Earth will definitely drop. Locus, Kirihara, and Fatality will definitely rise. I am unsure as to where Samsora and ESAM will place.

Of the Top 20, here is who I believe will rise:
CaptainZack, Salem, Komorikiri, MKLeo, and Dabuz

Of the Top 20, here is who I believe will fall:
Ally, Larry Lurr, VoiD, Abadango, ANTi, Kameme, Nairo, and Mr E

PGR v3 Top 10, in my opinion: ZeRo, MKLeo, Dabuz, Nairo, Mr R, , Ally, Larry Lurr, Komorikiri, Salem, and Ken. CaptainZack gets 11th.

 

[Laken64]

Just gonna leave this here because I am a Rosalina player and like sharing all of the new jank discovered about her.

TL;DR: Rosalina goes into the z-axis during her running turnaround animation.

She's a totally fair and balanced character, I swear.

Fair and balanced~ pic.twitter.com/dn7UBZgyQY

— 🌀6WX🌀Wes🌀 (@6WXWes) June 18, 2017

This is why I'm glad we have , its a necessary evil or rather you need more bs to fight bs. Sometimes I wonder where would be if there was no or , and suddenly zero's tier list video pops in my head (where rosa is first). I'd be scared if there were more mains tbh.

 

[Nah]

....so why is there a Z-axis in a 2D game again?

 

[Lord Dio]

....so why is there a Z-axis in a 2D game again?

why wouldn't there be?
Besides, just go to Omega Game and Watch or Duck Hunt since it doesn't exist on those two.
Oh wait.

 

[Zerp]

....so why is there a Z-axis in a 2D game again?

It's because the game's rendered in three dimensions, so it gets three axes instead of two.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

....so why is there a Z-axis in a 2D game again?

Because it's not a 2D game, it's a 3D game that's restricted to 2-dimensional movement. Everything in the game is still 3D models.

 

[TDK]

Took a look at the last PGR, and here's the summarization of what I think will happen

Spoiler

Here's everyone I personally think will drop off:
Hyuga, Taheita, Ryo, Darkshad, Trela, False, saj, Pugwest, Day, dyr, Nietono, Vinnie, Tyrant

Here's who I think MIGHT drop off, but have at least a small chance of staying:
Mew2king, Pink Fresh, 6WX, Ned, MVD, Wrath, falln, Dath, ScAtt, WaDi, Rich Brown

Here's everyone on the v2 that I am positive will stay (v2's Top 20 excluded):
Kirihara, Locus, Samsora, Fatality, ESAM, Earth

I believe that anyone on the second list who remains on the PGR will either drop a good deal, or remain at the bottom if they were there in the PGR v2. The same goes for those on the first list.

For the third list, Earth will definitely drop. Locus, Kirihara, and Fatality will definitely rise. I am unsure as to where Samsora and ESAM will place.

Of the Top 20, here is who I believe will rise:
CaptainZack, Salem, Komorikiri, MKLeo, and Dabuz

Of the Top 20, here is who I believe will fall:
Ally, Larry Lurr, VoiD, Abadango, ANTi, Kameme, Nairo, and Mr E

PGR v3 Top 10, in my opinion: ZeRo, MKLeo, Dabuz, Nairo, Mr R, , Ally, Larry Lurr, Komorikiri, Salem, and Ken. CaptainZack gets 11th.

Falln is definitely not dropping off the PGR whatsoever, same with 6WX. Falln, if anything, has had a better season this year than last year.

That being said I'd say top 10 is ZeRo, Leo, Dabuz, Ally, Nairo, Mr. R, Larry Lurr, Kirihara, Salem, KEN. Not sure on the order of 7-10.

 

[Lord Dio]

Falln is definitely not dropping off the PGR whatsoever, same with 6WX. Falln, if anything, has had a better season this year than last year.

Ah, my mistake there. Really wasn't sure about them, so I put them on the might list just to be safe.

 

[Vyrnx]

Aba got 5th at two S tiers this season and could possibly be top 10, but his record vs the top 5 is 0-12.

I'm predicting ZeRo, Leo, Nairo, Ally, Dabuz, Mr. R in that order and then some combination of Larry, Zack, Komo, Tweek (or Aba; Tweek has good set records, but he hasn't top eighted an S tier and performed poorly at three of them). I don't know how much the Civil War win will be weighted, but depending on that, and given Dabuz's relatively poor record vs the rest of top 5 (1-6) and fewer results, he could be anywhere from 3rd to 6th (with a possibility of Mr. R being above him, in which case these game records would change). But I feel like winning Civil War will have Dabuz in top 5 and I'm certain the other four will be, and
ZeRo will be first by an absolutely huge margin yet again.

 

[|RK|]

Aba got 5th at two S tiers this season and could possibly be top 10, but his record vs the top 5 is 0-12.

I'm predicting ZeRo, Leo, Nairo, Ally, Dabuz, Mr. R in that order and then some combination of Larry, Zack, Komo, Tweek (or Aba; Tweek has good set records, but he hasn't top eighted an S tier and performed poorly at three of them). I don't know how much the Civil War win will be weighted, but depending on that, and given Dabuz's relatively poor record vs the rest of top 5 (1-6) and fewer results, he could be anywhere from 3rd to 6th (with a possibility of Mr. R being above him, in which case these game records would change). But I feel like winning Civil War will have Dabuz in top 5 and I'm certain the other four will be, and
ZeRo will be first by an absolutely huge margin yet again.

Kinda crazy. ZeRo went from no S-tiers wins to 50% in two weeks. Should have walked out to Back to Back instead lol

 

[UberMadman]

People in this thread don't seem to realize that Street Fighter IV and Street Fighter V have strictly 2D hitboxes. There is no need for Smash Bros. to have interaction along the Z-Axis of any kind.

 

[L9999]

CEO 2017 (611 entrants) (Orlando, Florida)

49. LeeT

How do you get that far in a 611 man tourney with 3 trash tiers?

Falln is definitely not dropping off the PGR whatsoever, same with 6WX. Falln, if anything, has had a better season this year than last year.

That being said I'd say top 10 is ZeRo, Leo, Dabuz, Ally, Nairo, Mr. R, Larry Lurr, Kirihara, Salem, KEN. Not sure on the order of 7-10.

No Komorikiri?

 

[TDK]

How do you get that far in a 611 man tourney with 3 trash tiers?


No Komorikiri?

you could probably throw Komo in there over Salem, Salem playing at his best is top 10 for sure but if he's not playing at his best he's not going to do too well.

there's 15 players that could reasonably be in the top 10, the order depends on what you're looking for.

 

[ARGHETH]

How do you get that far in a 611 man tourney with 3 trash tiers?

By getting Leo in his first set and going through six people (including JaK) in his loser's run before running into DarkShad.

 

[Rizen]

....so why is there a Z-axis in a 2D game again?

Because

I don't think Rosa's turning animation will have much use, unlike a certain Z axis spotdodge

 

[TTTTTsd]

Guilty Gear Xrd is also done in Unreal Engine 4 and uses strictly 3d models and even 3d camera effects. Z Axis is just in Smash because they don't feel like doing hitsquares so we get hitspheres that can move into the background based on animation.

 

[Delzethin]

I've been wondering something for a while.

So those of you who main mid or upper tiers or anyone not considered high tier, how often would you say commentators get your character all wrong? As in, how often do they act like your main plays differently than they actually do? Or expect them to pick stages that aren't actually good for them? Or if the player loses the set, how often do the commentators assume it must be a horrible or even invalidating matchup for them?

It happens with Robin all the damn time, and I have my theories as to why, but I'm wondering how often it happens for other characters.

 

[Game7a1]

By getting Leo in his first set and going through six people (including JaK) in his loser's run before running into DarkShad.

Technically it was his second set, but the point still stands.
As an aside, the Brawl bottom trio of + Miis have garnered some nice results as of late (Gungnir getting 17th at Umebura Japan Major; Ven getting 49th at Nairo Saga and Onpu getting 33rd at Umebura Japan Major; and LeeT getting 49th at CEO). Not a lot, but notable.

 

[MachoCheeze]

Pretty decently sized tournament took place in Ohio yesterday.

COST (Central Ohio Smash 4 Tournament) [Ohio]
90 Entrants

1st Cosmos
2nd Cilvanis
3rd JeBB
4th colonies
5th Geist
5th Mac Attk
7th Crazycolorz5
7th Karanole

Rest of the results: https://smash.gg/tournament/cost-central-ohio-smash-4-tournament/events/wii-u-singles/standings

 

[|RK|]

I've been wondering something for a while.

So those of you who main mid or upper tiers or anyone not considered high tier, how often would you say commentators get your character all wrong? As in, how often do they act like you main plays differently than they actually do? Or expect them to pick stages that aren't actually good for them? Or if the player loses the set, how often do the commentators assume it must be a horrible or even invalidating matchup for them?

It happens with Robin all the damn time, and I have my theories as to why, but I'm wondering how often it happens for other characters.

For such a straightforward character, no one knows anything about Kirby. Not that he should be grounded, not that he has kill confirms out of dtilt trip, not basic fthrow combos (like fthrow final cutter), not... anything, tbh.