Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

The intro to this chapter in the "Play to Win book"

The rest of it: http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/what-should-be-banned

 

[NewZen]

Back on topic, however, a question to my Tink and Link mains on the subject of Bayonetta since she's been brought back up-which of the two has an easier time against her? I play both, but Tink is my main Link, and the only thing I know is, "U-tilt is free damage when she doesn't activate Bat Within", but overall, I have tons of trouble against her and can't seem to keep her out with my projectiles.

 

[BSP]

You mean it is a frametrap ? And it is turn around USmash right ?

What do you mean "Sheik-like" Rizen ? Characters that cannot kill ? Aggressive characters with good frame datas ?

I meant if Mario dtilts you for hanging on the ledge, he can then hit you with Fsmash pretty easily. You'll die at stupid low %, so it's best not to sit at the ledge at the range which he can do it (which I don't know, that's something to lab).

Now that you mention it, Mario could probably frame trap ledge roll and maybe standard getup with dtilt -> Usmash, but ledge jump and attack would probably bail you out.

 

[Mr. Johan]

not even close to the same issue. palutena slows down when lightwieght is over and she cannot spam superspeed. the lightwieght glitch is gone as well. jump glide isnt nearly as fast or as hard to chase as spring is either. palutena could runaway in theory but her customs that most people prefer are skewee for burst damage and combos.

Palutena does not need to use all moves at once. She can Super Speed during Lightweight cooldown, jump cancel that while maintaining that speed, and then activate Jump Glide and use the voluntary speed boost from that to maneuver, and cover herself with an aerial since Jump Glide abides by Winged Pikmin properties. By the time she's landed, Lightweight cooldown is done and she can begin the sequence again.

People will go for the customs that win them games. LightSpeedGlide is the optimal combo to make Palutena hit-and-run acclimated, and then have the defense necessary for the obligatory cooldown from Lightweight.

 

[Illuminose]

To clarify for anyone curious. 2GG agreed to have Mii's unbanned for the tournament this weekend, then went back on it less than 24 hours before the event started. Two points to make

• The midwest mayhem ruleset that they said they would use BANS SMALL mii's already, so even without a ban on the Mii's other normal specials you still can't play small brawler (the good one).

• This sets a precedent for TO's to change rulesets AFTER people have paid them. Frostbite is specifically using the Genesis 4 ruleset and not the PG Gaming one because people paid money with the assumtion that it would be the Genesis 4 ruleset. Imagine a future where you pay for a tournament, get off the plane, and find out that the TO just banned Bayonetta for the entire tour.

I think this is slightly misrepresenting the situation.

They didn't "agree" to anything. Miis being allowed in the rules was an oversight that somehow no one mentioned in the entire registration process (guess that shows how many people read the rules before an event). It is 2GG's fault that this situation occurred, but I can't say that I am totally against being consistent with the standard Mii rules for every other 2GG event, and it's also a little silly to say that there is any reason not to assume Midwest Mayhem uses the same Mii rules as the national rule set. The situation sucks for the couple people affected (possibly, don't know if there are actually people affected). 2GG should have been more careful, but there is no agreement here. Champ already agreed to refund the costs of the event if there's anyone actually affected by this. Probably not worth dwelling on too much more.

 

[ARGHETH]

I don't have access to the Wii U version right the moment, but on the 3ds you choose your fighter type and a name, and you're brought to a menu to choose your moves... all of which are set to 1111 at the start. If you just hit "save" there, that's what it'll be.

Keep in mind that I'm mostly for free Miss.

I think Yikarur's point is that until you click save, you haven't actually created your character. Everything from create to save is in the process of creating the mii fighter. Your moves aren't really set, because the charter doesn't exactly exist yet.

Besides, doesn't it default to mii brawler when selecting which mii fighter you want?

 

[Krysco]

Miis were designed around being customizable while Palutena is the poster child for customs. Miis don't need the custom fighters button turned on to use their alternate specials, Palutena does but also doesn't require any hacking or rng grinding to get her alternate specials. Also, with custom fighters turned on, it takes 2 presses of the A button to pick a non-Mii character rather than just 1.

As for Mii sizes, the 2 biggest arguments I see against it are the requirement of leaving the game to create anything other than medium height and weight Miis and the power of small, all specials allowed Brawler. The first argument can be countered by the fact that you have to leave the game to get a legal stage and quite a number of characters, many of them high or top tiers. The button added to the menu be damned, you're still going to the eshop for them. Plus, dlc stages and characters cost money while resized Miis don't cost anything. For the small custom Brawler argument, I find that this quote from MSC's "What is considered ban worthy?" video fitting: "When we ban something to early, we skew the metagame to our wants rather than what the game intended. Only when a tactics counter is to use the tactic itself should we consider to ban it." Small custom Brawler is easily the most viable of the Miis and in the current meta with tuned down Sheiks, Diddys, Rosas, Bayonettas, Clouds, ZSS' and the like compared to when we first got access to them, small Brawler may very well be too powerful. But there's no way to know unless it's allowed.

Despite all of that, I doubt there'll ever be a time where most tournaments allow fully customizable Miis. The only reason mid height/weight Miis are allowed at all is because the game comes with 6 already made. If those didn't exist, I could see Miis being fully banned. On the other hand, if even a single default Mii was small, I'd imagine small Miis would be legal right now. People would have adapted to dealing with small Brawler just as they have against every other viable character.

 

[blackghost]

Palutena does not need to use all moves at once. She can Super Speed during Lightweight cooldown, jump cancel that while maintaining that speed, and then activate Jump Glide and use the voluntary speed boost from that to maneuver, and cover herself with an aerial since Jump Glide abides by Winged Pikmin properties. By the time she's landed, Lightweight cooldown is done and she can begin the sequence again.

People will go for the customs that win them games. LightSpeedGlide is the optimal combo to make Palutena hit-and-run acclimated, and then have the defense necessary for the obligatory cooldown from Lightweight.

no youre missing the point. even if superspeed palutena still is signifigantly slower while in lightweight cooldown further more she would have to manage two cooldowns one of which has two parts (lightweight). palutena unlike sonic diesnt have a way to come back to the ground and superspeed doesnt have the intangibility/invincibility of spun dash. i also dont think that the entire sequence you stated would be ling enough for all her cooldowns to reset. i say this because the two former best palutena custom players big d and aerolink never could do that without the lightwieght glitch. the issues players have woth sonic shouldnt transfer to palutena.

 

[ARISTOS]

https://twitter.com/2GGaming/status/829783356724363265

This is not an apology lol.

TOs been messing up a ton recently

 

[my_T]

Why 1111 when there is no default for Miis

There exists a default move set selection for non-Mii characters, but you use a menu to select Mii-based specials.

So people think it's fair that some characters get to utilize their entire move set while others can not? Doesn't seem fair to me.

Miis not having a default move set doesn't justify them being able to choose between 1-4 while non Miis are restricted to 1.

 

[Rizen]

So people think it's fair that some characters get to utilize their entire move set while others can not? Doesn't seem fair to me.

Miis not having a default move set doesn't justify them being able to choose between 1-4 while non Miis are restricted to 1.

^This. It's like Nobie said, Ness' magnet doesn't help in the DK MU but he's stuck with it. So miis don't have the perfect set of specials: join the club. We're called Not Top Tiers Anonymous or Nottanon and we meet daily in the CCI thread to complain about ladder combos and hoo haws.

 

[Das Koopa]

My opinion is that Miis should just have an agreed upon moveset.

1: They have no default
2: The community should decide a default

If Miis had a good moveset based on the pool presented most complaints would cease altogether. You' have some people who use gunner who might not like a Grenade v. Charge Shot decision, but it'd the best way to cease the larger debate. The basis of 1111 is entirely arbitrary (and something nobody who plays the characters actually agrees with) and on that metric there's nothing preventing an agreed moveset upon for the three characters that's consistent and streamlined.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

So people think it's fair that some characters get to utilize their entire move set while others can not? Doesn't seem fair to me.

Miis not having a default move set doesn't justify them being able to choose between 1-4 while non Miis are restricted to 1.

Their default is "use any specials you want". Unlike every other character in the game they do not have pre-set defaults. Does not exist.

Ryu gets to use extra moves, because they're built into him. Kirby and Meta Knight get extra jumps because its built into them. Choosing which specials you want on your Mii is built in, because they are not a character until after you choose their specials. Not before. Some characters get special advantages over others, that's how fighting games as a whole work.

They're not custom moves, as seen by the in game option (turning customs off still let the Miis use any specials). The Miis actually have no custom moves period, they have 4 sets of default moves. Thus they should be treated as such, which means full access.

 

[Rizen]

Their default is "use any specials you want". Unlike every other character in the game they do not have pre-set defaults. Does not exist.

Ryu gets to use extra moves, because they're built into him. Kirby and Meta Knight get extra jumps because its built into them. Choosing which specials you want on your Mii is built in, because they are not a character until after you choose their specials. Not before. Some characters get special advantages over others, that's how fighting games as a whole work.

They're not custom moves, as seen by the in game option (turning customs off still let the Miis use any specials). The Miis actually have no custom moves period, they have 4 sets of default moves. Thus they should be treated as such, which means full access.

Miis' default is not being in the game, as seen in For Glory. If you're going to go by menu rules they have no place in anything not "for fun". No character gets special treatment, especially outside the actual games, that's ridiculous. Also you literally go into a menu called "custom" to change Mii fighters' moves.


I'm fine with miis starting with moves that aren't 1111 and like Das Koopa 's idea of custom moves that are predetermined and locked. 1111 seems as arbitrary as any combination. That's fine even though it's better than the other characters who can't pick their best specials.

 

[blackghost]

Miis' default is not being in the game, as seen in For Glory

i'm hoping someone else can explain what wrong with this thought process im way too tired to do this tonight.

 

[T4ylor]

Any rule that limits the Miis' move choice is arbitrary and bad, either let them have access to all of their custom moves or ban them

 

[ARGHETH]

Miis' default is not being in the game, as seen in For Glory.

i'm hoping someone else can explain what wrong with this thought process im way too tired to do this tonight.

For Glory is generally a terrible thing to base the ruleset on, as FG only has omegas, goes to sudden death as a tiebreaker and has a five minute timer. The weirdest part about this argument, though, is that the smash community has almost never gone with the "defaults" for the ruleset. See: all of competitive Melee, the existence of non-flat stages in competitive smash 4, team attack being on, and stocks instead of timer in Melee/64.
FG is the basis (as far as I know) for 2 stocks in Smash 4, but that's literally it. It was used as an argument against customs, but, as we all know, there are much stronger (and more commonly used) arguments against them.

 

[verbatim]

I think this is slightly misrepresenting the situation.

They didn't "agree" to anything. Miis being allowed in the rules was an oversight that somehow no one mentioned in the entire registration process (guess that shows how many people read the rules before an event)

They directly advertised using the Midwest Mayhem ruleset, so yes they did agree. You can't back out of a contract because you didn't read it.

 

[Illuminose]

This isn't the legal system. This is a Super Smash Bros. tournament.

 

[Rizen]

i'm hoping someone else can explain what wrong with this thought process im way too tired to do this tonight.

For Glory is generally a terrible thing to base the ruleset on, as FG only has omegas, goes to sudden death as a tiebreaker and has a five minute timer. The weirdest part about this argument, though, is that the smash community has almost never gone with the "defaults" for the ruleset. See: all of competitive Melee, the existence of non-flat stages in competitive smash 4, team attack being on, and stocks instead of timer in Melee/64.
FG is the basis (as far as I know) for 2 stocks in Smash 4, but that's literally it. It was used as an argument against customs, but, as we all know, there are much stronger (and more commonly used) arguments against them.

I know, if you read my post you'll see I was using FG to show why arguing predetermined rules like "customs off allows mii specials" doesn't work.

If you're going to go by menu rules they have no place in anything not "for fun".

 

[ARISTOS]

This isn't the legal system. This is a Super Smash Bros. tournament.

It is incredibly poor form to change the rules of an arrangement less than 48 hours before it was set to begin. Players have to set up lodging and travel way before a tournament arrives, which costs money. The entry fee costs money. You have to plan around the weekend you're giving up, which is an additional cost.

You pay up all that, then are told, "Sorry not sorry, not changing things, we'll give your sign up fee back" for a tournament that was advertised to allow you entry and only got changed because an outside party got involved?

I would be incredibly upset.

 

[verbatim]

This isn't the legal system. This is a Super Smash Bros. tournament.

Paypal follows the legal system. Even if they took cash it'd be incredibly shady to take someone's money and then change what they were buying after the fact.

Also

I know, if you read my post you'll see I was using FG to show why arguing predetermined rules like "customs off allows mii specials" doesn't work.

"customs off allow mii specials" isn't a "predetermined rule", it's literally the default. Things that aren't default have a solid reasoning behind them, examples being:

• bo3/bo5 instead of bo1 because of variability in the game.
• stage striking/stage selection rules (like modified DSR).
• banning stages that introduce a lot of luck, encourage timeouts, give an uneven atdvantage based on where people spawn.
• Turning items off because they introduce too much luck
• etc

 

[my_T]

The weirdest part about this argument, though, is that the smash community has almost never gone with the "defaults" for the ruleset.

Lol people in this thread are arguing that Miis should be allowed to customize while non-Miis can not because that's how the game is by default. With this argument we might as well legalize the full stage list because they're accessible/playable by default.

As you've said, this community strays away quite a bit from the default rules/settings so the 'Mii's should be allowed to customize because the Mii's are customizable by default' argument doesn't fly. Furthermore, it's just unfair to the players to give some characters full access to their resources while limiting the rest.

Miis should be limited to 1111 just like every other character; otherwise allow complete customization for every character

 

[ARGHETH]

Lol people in this thread are arguing that Miis should be allowed to customize while non-Miis can not because that's how the game is by default. With this argument we might as well legalize the full stage list because they're accessible/playable by default.

As you've said, this community strays away quite a bit from the default rules/settings so the 'Mii's should be allowed to customize because the Mii's are customizable by default' argument doesn't fly. Furthermore, it's just unfair to the players to give some characters full access to their resources while limiting the rest.

Miis should be limited to 1111 just like every other character; otherwise allow complete customization for every character

Except the main reasons why we don't do that isn't favoritism, but because getting customs is rather difficult and creating sets for every character is time consuming. Miis, however, have every move unlocked by default, and creating a set for a Mii takes less than a minute.
In addition, most of the miis' specials are either obviously based on another characters' specials or are already well-known (with the possible exception of mii sword). If you're paying attention to what specials your opponent picks, you probably already know how they work and how to play against them.

 

[Yikarur]

uhm..
We're choosing the settings and at that point everything within the settings should be allowed.
I've explained it already back then:
2 Stocks is a setting.
6 Minutes is a setting.
Customs Fighter: Off is a setting.

Everything within thoose settings is legal.

If you create out of games rules they need to be warranted, enforceable and discrete.

Out-of-Game Rules are most of the time things that are outside of the game to begin with:
- Character and Stage selections and orders
- How many games do I need to win in order to win a set
Those are rules that are needed to play tournament sets, because the game doesn't follow through constructed tournament orders by itself.


Out-Of-Game Rules don't mess with how the gameplayed is being played!

There are only very rare cases where we put ourself and the rules over the game to create a more competitive environment:
- Ledge Grab Rule in Brawl
- A character being banned because he is overpowered (MK in some instances in Brawl)
- Tie-Breakers (Sudden Death)



Now that I explained this principle, let use it to look at Mii Fighters:
- Mii Fighters are created from a custom menu, but they are unaffected by the custom fighter button.
- That means when we're allowing Mii's in tournament, you go to the custom menu, choose your specifications and create the fighter.
- If you put a restriction on Mii's specials you put a out-of-game restriction on them, because that restriction is made-up. It doesn't exist to begin with.
- 1111 is as custom as 2212, 3212, 2222, 3333. Mii is a custom character!
- Therefore you either allow ALL MOVES, because every move set is as custom as the other or you say "Custom fighters are not allowed, because you have to leave the CSS to even have access to the character".
aka
You either allow Mii's with all moves or you don't allow the characters alltogethers. Those are the only options that make sense.

 

[Rizen]

Okay, I'm over this topic. Boxcars are rollin' a carnival of sorts outta town.


I've been watching Elegant play Luigi and he is gooood. IMO Luigi's a high tier on the lower end of it. The character can destroy people offstage with tornado.

PS Nicko's a great Shulk.

 

[TDK]

Meanwhile, at True Combo Thursdays...

SM 2-0 Rich Brown

He also took a game off Nicko though Nicko won the set. Let's see if he can get the runback.

 

[L9999]

Ness has to live with psi magnet not mattering against DK. I'd prefer if individual Mii Fighter mains were required to stick with one moveset of their own choosing.

I dodged a DK grab once with PSI Magnet, but I don't think that is consistently useful...

Okay, I'm over this topic. Boxcars are rollin' a carnival of sorts outta town.


I've been watching Elegant play Luigi and he is gooood. IMO Luigi's a high tier on the lower end of it. The character can destroy people offstage with tornado.

PS Nicko's a great Shulk.

I have been thinking it since the "Luigi sucks balls" period. For a character with suckÿ mobility Luigi's attacks come out super fast (Fair, Nair, Bair, Dair, and Smash Attacks). Luigi has so many fast kill moves and rage nonsense it's silly. And his grab...Dare to do wrong Luigi gets a grab and he gets 30% damage no trouble.

 

[Rizen]

I dodged a DK grab once with PSI Magnet, but I don't think that is consistently useful...


I have been thinking it since the "Luigi sucks balls" period. For a character with suckÿ mobility Luigi's attacks come out super fast (Fair, Nair, Bair, Dair, and Smash Attacks). Luigi has so many fast kill moves and rage nonsense it's silly. And his grab...Dare to do wrong Luigi gets a grab and he gets 30% damage no trouble.

His fireballs really help make up for his poor mobility and approaches too.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I can't comment on the other matches, but this is an interesting matchup. It's one you'd expect Dabuz to have a huge advantage in, considering he uses Olimar as well.

Better still, dabuz spent a considerable amount of time specifically analyzing Shuton's Olimar on stream. Rough draw for Shuton who I think could've made it into top 5 otherwise.

 

[The-Technique]

I dodged a DK grab once with PSI Magnet, but I don't think that is consistently useful...


I have been thinking it since the "Luigi sucks balls" period. For a character with suckÿ mobility Luigi's attacks come out super fast (Fair, Nair, Bair, Dair, and Smash Attacks). Luigi has so many fast kill moves and rage nonsense it's silly. And his grab...Dare to do wrong Luigi gets a grab and he gets 30% damage no trouble.

Also if you whiff a grab or land poorly, Luigi can just kill you at 50-60% with his frame 8 up B. The character is nuts.

Meanwhile, at True Combo Thursdays...

SM 2-0 Rich Brown

He also took a game off Nicko though Nicko won the set. Let's see if he can get the runback.

What's the name of the stream? I wanna see this Ike in action.

 

[ARGHETH]

What's the name of the stream? I wanna see this Ike in action.

Stream is fadgames
The set

 

[Megamang]

Luigi also has one of the most powerful punishes in the game, that can be used OoS, out of a run, in the air, and comes out on frame 8.

Elegant hits these when TONS of luigi's would run up and grab. It is Witch Time levels of Risk-Reward skewed too, especially at the ledge.

His jab is terrific. Dsmash is terrific, usmash is basic plumber stuff but a good one. I harp on mobility a lot, Luigi/Corrin are my idea of characters that almost overcome this, with either insane grappling/boxing/reward/gimping or just damn good buttons.

 

[Nobie]

Just to clarify my Mii Fighter stance (because I worded it kind of strangely):

I think all players should be able to use whatever move sets they want, but that individual players shouldn't be allowed to swap out moves in the middle of a tournament. This allows customization, but doesn't allow customization counterpicking, at least not without risks.

In other words, you can choose your Mii customs to be well-rounded, more defensive, whatever you prefer, but you'd have to commit to that decision.

Oh, and I told you guys about preferring to fight Cloud over Ike as Mewtwo...

 

[Deleted member]

Okay, I'm over this topic. Boxcars are rollin' a carnival of sorts outta town.


I've been watching Elegant play Luigi and he is gooood. IMO Luigi's a high tier on the lower end of it. The character can destroy people offstage with tornado.

PS Nicko's a great Shulk.

v. is a very snowbally matchup. Shulk bullies him hard with Buster aerials and has the mobility to weave/space around him and can intercept his recovery fairly well, but if Luigi 'nado gimps Shulk without a midair jump or grabs him ever he's goin' to town. Luigi's boxing and punish game are very potent, two things Shulk dislikes. Nicko tends to go even in sets in Elegant while he has a winning record over ConCon, so that's something.

 

[Sinister Slush]

My opinion is that Miis should just have an agreed upon moveset.

1: They have no default
2: The community should decide a default

This was done already, for every character in the game actually. Most people don't remember cause it was around the beginning of Smash 4 wii u and most new members that frequent this thread didn't even join the boards yet or were still lurking by never roaming outside of one area.

Amazing Ampharos made a thread for all characters for his project and had the mains choose I believe 6 movesets that were the best for the character and for specific situations if they wanted to change up one singular move.


Of course when you read the number 6 that already trips some red alarms though cause having to set a wii u in every venue have 6 (if the character board chose the maximum movesets) though since it's miis, still required to set 18 movesets on every wii u at the big regional/national beforehand for it to be done.

 

[HiNiTe]

Regarding Miis I would say the community overall is conservative towards lending chances and the last time it felt compelled to try something unique was customs and we all know how that turned out in the end... So for miis i just don't think people will be willing to try customization for these even if limited to certain movesets that could be majority agrred upon to be best

Just look at Palutena, the character is held by setbacks because she's designed to be used with various things and even less troublesome with miis because she doesn't have things like weight changes etc but no one bats an eye to this one... Even the stage list which now is getting lowered even MORE, how do we expect new balances of playstyles if we go this route

 

[Y2Kay]

JANUARY 2017 DATA ANALYSIS


MEGA MAN/GRENINJA???

I don't know what happened here. This could be straggler 9th/13th place points no longer accumulating, but it's possible that multiple under-performances from Kameme is responsible for Mega Man's low numbers. A lot of Greninja's big mains may not have come out.

I really haven't heard much at all from the ninjas. Venia has not been to a major since last summer. I haven't really heard much from iStud or Elex either. The only ones who've been out are tasty tofu and Some, and they suffer from the japanes inconsistency bug too.

Maybe they're in hibernation?

 

[Jaguar360]

I really haven't heard much at all from the ninjas. Venia has not been to a major since last summer. I haven't really heard much from iStud or Elex either. The only ones who've been out are tasty tofu and Some, and they suffer from the japanes inconsistency bug too.

Maybe they're in hibernation?

Elexiao's been to some stuff but has just been struggling top place well but everything else is pretty on point here. iStudying said he's focusing on school in his AMA. The only tourney I think he's been to since UGC is that Avalon from a week or two ago where he got 4th. On the other hand, I've noticed Japanese Greninjas coming to tournaments slightly more than usual but still just failing to reach top 16 typically losing evenish matchups to equally skilled players like Tsu-, Hikaru, Ron and Sigma. Lea's the only one who seems to have been performing consistently, beating Kameme and getting 13th at SGC.

Not really sure what to make of this month's results for Greninja since it seems to be a combination of underperforming and inactivity. Too early to call the character falling off since it's not really a trend yet, just an off month for now. Frosbite's coming up this month thankfully so maybe a top 32 placement from Some could do something.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

Speaking of Istudying, he is here right now. https://www.twitch.tv/byo_controller