Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[blackghost]

Bayo and Shiek are characters who can reduce him to a punching bag most days but get Smash 4'd by him on others. Shiek shouldn't really be getting touched by him in general, but it's counteracted by the fact that Bowser often lives to absurd percents against her and the times he does touch her put her in a life or death situation. Bayo's main issue is that she can either kill him really early or really late outside of gimping, and Bowser's grab game is particularly lethal on her so rage is even more of a factor (although she can Bat Within out of his grab combos pretty effectively). She can also whittle his shield down with SH Fair mix-ups but in general you don't really want to play too aggro against him.

idk that bayo mu is rrally close. we need more data about when she can bat within out of the throw combos. if its a true combo nothing will save her.
bayo has to be on point for nearly the entire game its probably pretty close.
all this analysis is excluding duck hunt and lylat. bayo should beat up on bowser there pretty easily . lylat she can truly just zone and duck hunt bowser shouldnt be able to corner her for grabs

 

[ARISTOS]

What are the match ups within the Top 15 that Bowser wins or goes even with?



Without having extensive knowledge on these match ups, this is what I would say looks to be his more favourable ones.

Corrin-Bowser feels like it would be terrible for Bowser. Everyone else seem accurate though.

Corrin, Lucario in your top 15?

 

[ぱみゅ]

Bat Within is overrated, it's just an airdodge.
And at that point it works just like against any other character: it becomes a 50/50 where either Uair/Bair connects or Bowser baits it and punish with Usmash (specially dangerous on her due to a combination of her being a fastfaller and having the single laggiest airdodge in the game).

 

[Rizen]

Doesn't bat within have less lag if activated than her normal dodges?

 

[MistressRemilia]

What are the match ups within the Top 15 that Bowser wins or goes even with?



Without having extensive knowledge on these match ups, this is what I would say looks to be his more favourable ones.

Speaking with results in mind, Bowser does quite decent against Diddy Kong, as the record of Bowser vs Diddy Kong at a good level of play is positive for Bowser, or somewhat equal at least, i believe. I recommend watching Paru vs Nietono, because it is a good showcase of how Bowser's neutral can be awkward to deal with, even for the character with one of the best neutral games out there. You can notice how Bowser's strong range on grounded pokes poses a constant threat to Diddy's game, both in terms of throwing out moves, and playing a more defensive game, because Bowser has the options to sort of nllify or make some options Diddy has as its disposal less efficient, with either intangibility on non commital moves like Jab, or just sheer movement. If you're interested in a good showcase of this matchup, here's the link to the aforementionned Paru vs Nietono match:

 

[Ulevo]

Corrin-Bowser feels like it would be terrible for Bowser. Everyone else seem accurate though.

Corrin, Lucario in your top 15?

I am being lenient and open minded with Top 15 picks.

I cannot see Corrin doing well. She has horrible landing options that lose to grappling options. She's a slower Marth with Dragon Lunge, which loses to good out of shield options and reactions.

 

[NairWizard]

ZeRo's opinions may be strange many times, but they're grounded in his understanding of the game at least, that much is hard to deny.

He's right about Bowser to some extent. Bowser on the ground has an incredible neutral game. Just look at the characters Nairo brings him out against, they are all characters strong at playing a traditional neutral: Sheik, Diddy Kong, Marth, Cloud. Characters with disjointed hitboxes and zoners who rely on spacing characters out have some difficulty dealing with Bowser's jab and pivot grab.

Bowser is built like a close-range fighter with twice or three times the usual range of a close-range fighter. This messes up the usual zoner > CQC dynamic and makes him a good pick against zoners.

Think about choosing Mario against Marth, then give Mario fists three times their normal size in exchange for a bulkier body. Would you take that trade in that MU? Definitely.

Those who are confused by the idea of Diddy vs. Bowser being even: just think about Diddy's usual playstyle (he plays much like a zoner, a swordsman), and it'll start to make sense. Diddy throws out a b-air and Bowser pivot grabs him for it. Or calls out his landing and up-bs on the ground. Or jabs him out of his d-tilt. Or just pivot jabs the monkey flip... Bowser has options. DK was once believed to do alright vs. Diddy in neutral, and then it was discovered that DK just didn't have enough ways off of the ledge for it to matter. Grounded Bowser has even more tools than grounded DK, and also traps Diddy at the ledge just like Diddy traps him.

Sonic and ZSS remain the only characters that I don't want to be fighting as Bowser (these matchups are -2 at least). ZSS has a special anti-Bowser advantage state, and Sonic can just zone him out all day without much issue. Bayonetta is probably only bad on certain stages.

If I had to imagine a Bowser getting first in tournament, it'd be with a secondary meant specifically to handle Sonic and ZSS and sometimes Bayonetta. Characters that come to mind here are Villager, Megaman, and Pikachu. Or you could just go Cloud, if you believe (like I do) that the Cloud-Bayonetta matchup could swing to Cloud's favor someday.

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

Hey everyone, this is unrelated to the current conversation but i feel like this is worth mentioning:

Members of the shulk community recently created a great website for shulk, http://shulk101.com/ This website contains everything you would need to know about Shulk and its a great resource tool and much more

Introduction video explaining the ins and outs of this website: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BeyqlzEHsyY

Hopefully more character communities can create websites like this and help everyone gain more knowledge about each character

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Surprised no one said Mario yet.

 

[TDK]

Canonically it makes sense for Mario to have a 100-0 matchup vs Bowser.

 

[ぱみゅ]

What I find amusing when talking about Mario is that everyone and their mothers argue that they have an even or advantageous matchup against him.

Doesn't bat within have less lag if activated than her normal dodges?

I do not have the data atm, but BW is difficult to measure because it induces hitlag, and then Bayonetta suffers landing lag.

 

[SaltyKracka]

What I find amusing when talking about Mario is that everyone and their mothers argue that they have an even or advantageous matchup against him.

Not everyone. Ganondorfs are merely given to claiming that he's their least polarized and cancerous top tier matchup.

 

[Dre89]

Mario doesn't seem threatening on paper due to his poor range and average ground mobility. But in reality you hit him at low percents then he punishes you with a 50% string with his BS frame data.

 

[L9999]

What I find amusing when talking about Mario is that everyone and their mothers argue that they have an even or advantageous matchup against him.

Every time Ally (or any top player for that matter) loses people get overhyped and are quick to jump into conclusions (like Palufraud). I'm no gambler, but I bet money that if MK Leo lost as Marth against....I don't know, a player, most people would flip their tables and go " beats 6:4 guys!!!", (and 7:3 cause why not? The tip!!!!!) ignoring every past account or possible future trends. It gets worse if the top player in question goes on Twitter and posts "X is the anathema of my life" or something like that. We are also on the trend of "Mario not top 10, he sucks" so people feel safe on giving their opinions. Time will tell.

Not everyone. Ganondorfs are merely given to claiming that he's their least polarized and cancerous top tier matchup.

Still a negative MU so what's the point?

 

[irokex13]

Can't help but feel like people are forgetting about Bowser's MU. Also can't help but feel like we're jumping to conclusions a bit too quickly. I'm hesitant to believe that Bowser has this many good MUs against these top/high tier characters. From a perspective, and from someone who has also lost to Bowser in the past, I don't see what he does if I choose to run away. When I first lost to Bowser, I kept thinking "I have to space my aerials better on his shield. Maybe I should cross up his shield instead." and I see something of the same when I see other players fight against him.

But what's stopping me from running away and platform camping, limiting as much interaction with him as possible (potentially going for the time out)? He's got an above average run speed, average air speed, and bad air accel, but his frame data is lacking. Frame 8 jump squat, fastest aerial is frame 8 and doesn't AC in a SH, and his aerial side B is frame 17 with a "meh" grab box. His standing grab is frame 9 and while his dash/pivot grab are good in startup (frame 10/11), they have quite a bit more ending lag than most grabs (37 frames of lag for dash grab, 34 for pivot grab).

Also, someone mentioned that might struggle against Bowser due to her having difficulty landing, but isn't landing safely like Bowser's #1 issue? And while he can ledge trap fairly well, doesn't he get ledge trapped by most of the cast too? I know this is oversimplifying it, but Bowser can't do much if he can't land grabs, and he can't get grabs if he's being camped.

Maybe I'm wrong and his reward from getting hits is too large to consistently camp him out at top levels, but at least locally, I find fighting him a lot more bearable when I Limit camp and space him out with bair (or just play Rosalina ).

 

[ILOVESMASH]

Mario can be beaten by any character due to how linear his neutral is. Lots of characters can wall him out and pressure him due to how poor his hitboxes are on a lot of attacks. However, his access to a polarizing tool in his grab to punish high commitment attacks allow him to easily muscle past most characters. Characters that he previously had terrible matchups against such as Marth no longer pose as much as a threat to Mario since winning neutral once can lead to 60-70% combos and Mario's access to numerous fast, non-commitment KO moves like USmash, D-Smash, and B-Throw allows him to easily pressure characters once they are at these higher percents.

 

[TDK]

As someone who plays both Rosa-Bowser is AWFUL. Rosalina kills him pretty early, juggles him to death, and Bowser has 0 answer to Luma rapid jab at the ledge. Actually 0. Sonic-Bowser doesn't seem great for Bowser either though I'll leave a Sonic main to that. Other than that and Bayo or ZSS being iffy I don't really see any other bad matchups in the top 10 + Marth for Bowser.

 

[The-Technique]

What I find amusing when talking about Mario is that everyone and their mothers argue that they have an even or advantageous matchup against him.

It is true though, though I wouldn't say they have advantageous matchups. I think what people mean to say is that most characters have winnable (again not necessarily advantageous) matchups against Mario, because unlike other top tiers, Mario doesn't have a free disadvantage state, busted mobility, or majorly oppressive tools.

 

[my_T]

Mario has the worst consistency of all the top tiers. Multiple losses at top (Ally, ANTi, Ron) level to a variety of characters

Rosa, ZSS, DK, Marth, Cloud, Sonic, M2, Corrin, Peach, Fox. Most of these characters have a positive record against Mario at top level. Marth and Sonic in particular have proven to give Mario a lot of trouble.

Then you have characters like Greninja, Bowser, and Luigi who have taken at least one set at top level AND/OR seem to give mario some trouble.

Also, top Mario mains have the most secondary usage at top level. ANTi has ZSS, Cloud, and MK. Ron has Luigi and Yoshi. Hell there have been decently stacked tournies where Ron and ANTi used there secondaries just as much if not more than Mario

How can people not have at least a tiny bit of doubt in Mario when comparing him to other top tiers?

 

[meticulousboy]

Are there any low tier characters that Mario struggles against in any shape or form? Someone brought up Shulk earlier, which made me wonder how the Mario vs. Shulk matchup would play out. Being able to change arts just to be able to escape Utilt and Uair juggling can be a benefit to Shulk. I would figure Mario would have trouble with swords, as usual.

 

[The-Technique]

Are there any low tier characters that Mario struggles against in any shape or form? Someone brought up Shulk earlier, which made me wonder how the Mario vs. Shulk matchup would play out. Being able to change arts just to be able to escape Utilt and Uair juggling can be a benefit to Shulk. I would figure Mario would have trouble with swords, as usual.

Duck Hunt, if you consider him low tier (not really). There was that one set where ImHip 3-0'd Zenyou's Mario and Cloud. For most low and mid tiers, they don't necessarily beat Mario but the match can swing either way for most of them.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Or you could just go Cloud, if you believe (like I do) that the Cloud-Bayonetta matchup could swing to Cloud's favor someday.

The circle of top tier characters that lose to Cloud is getting smaller and smaller with each major tournament at which Cloud fails to deliver. Why Bayonetta of all characters would turn out to be one to lose to Cloud deserves an explanation - she does have the best record against him of all characters in this game, after all.

 

[Nah]

Also, someone mentioned that might struggle against Bowser due to her having difficulty landing, but isn't landing safely like Bowser's #1 issue? And while he can ledge trap fairly well, doesn't he get ledge trapped by most of the cast too? I know this is oversimplifying it, but Bowser can't do much if he can't land grabs, and he can't get grabs if he's being camped.

Maybe I'm wrong and his reward from getting hits is too large to consistently camp him out at top levels, but at least locally, I find fighting him a lot more bearable when I Limit camp and space him out with bair (or just play Rosalina ).

It's true that Bowser is bad bad at landing and getting off the ledge, but you're sort of looking at this the wrong way. You're going "why would a character who struggles with landing/getting off the edge lose to one who's just as bad or worse at those things?" when you should be thinking about who's going to end up in that situation more often. Basically I'm not seeing how "both characters are bad at landing/getting off the ledge"=one does not struggle with the other for other reasons. While I'm not sure how exactly Corrin fares against Bowser, the possibility exists that they could struggle with him a bit for the same reason swordies have issues with him (and DK), which Solid Sense talked about in his above post.

You....also aren't camping anyone out with Corrin. To camp him out you'd need one or both of a) good projectiles and/or b) great mobility. Corrin has neither. The only two swordies who have any of those things are Robin and Cloud, which is why they have favorable MUs vs Bowser. And idk maybe Meta Knight does fine against him too but **** if I know

 

[Ulevo]

Meta Knight wins versus Bowser. He is one of the better characters at avoiding grabs because of multiple jumps, and he is able to abuse Bowser off stage pretty well.

 

[Jamurai]

MK certainly beats Bowser, but it's not a blowout or anything. They play a weirdly similar ground game but MK is better at it, and he combos and edgeguards Bowser to hell. Bowser is also a big body so Dair stuff off the side works on him (like in that twitter video of Lucia vs a DK). And MK can platform camp effectively to avoid standard grabs when he's in the lead.

However, usual Bowser caveats, he's heavy, a few grabs and MK is dead, and MK is a good weight for throw combos. Also pivot grab is very threatening for dash-ins when Bowser is ahead.

 

[Aaron1997]

I love Japan

 

[TheGoodGuava]

It's true that Bowser is bad bad at landing and getting off the ledge, but you're sort of looking at this the wrong way. You're going "why would a character who struggles with landing/getting off the edge lose to one who's just as bad or worse at those things?" when you should be thinking about who's going to end up in that situation more often. Basically I'm not seeing how "both characters are bad at landing/getting off the ledge"=one does not struggle with the other for other reasons. While I'm not sure how exactly Corrin fares against Bowser, the possibility exists that they could struggle with him a bit for the same reason swordies have issues with him (and DK), which Solid Sense talked about in his above post.

You....also aren't camping anyone out with Corrin. To camp him out you'd need one or both of a) good projectiles and/or b) great mobility. Corrin has neither. The only two swordies who have any of those things are Robin and Cloud, which is why they have favorable MUs vs Bowser. And idk maybe Meta Knight does fine against him too but **** if I know

Idk man, I'm pretty sure Link and TL are great at camping bowser out

I love Japan

Wasn't // a really good online tournament player?

 

[mountain_tiger]

How can people not have at least a tiny bit of doubt in Mario when comparing him to other top tiers?

Mario is quite an interesting case because his matchups are a lot less 'extreme' than basically everyone else in top 10. There really isn't any MU where he's at anything worse than a minor disadvantage, while there are also very few characters he outright nullifies. Compare and contrast with the likes of Bayonetta, Rosalina, ZSS etc. who have numerous +2 and even a few +3 MUs in their favour. With that in mind, there are a lot more MUs a Mario player has to 'worry about', which understandably will impact consistency in results to some extent.

In fact, on that topic there are actually quite a lot of parallels between Mario and Sheik meta-wise...

 

[Aaron1997]

TheGoodGuava Yes, he is. He's probably the most dangerous Wifi player in the world. He's beaten the like's of Ron, Ri-ma, Umeki, Yoshidora and Almost beat Earth and Ginko. (I'm mentioning Ginko because he's the best Active Pacman right now and that match-up horrible for Mac.)

 

[Sinister Slush]

I don't know. If Megafox got the bracket reset he should be treated as 1st imo, unless Twi was the one who put him in losers bracket in the first place.

Megafox lost to Twi in winners but got the bracket reset on him, so 1-1 in sets before they split. Think Megafox was willing to play but he said Smashville or split and Twi took the split over SV/playing more.

Some say they're still actually playing in the mountains to this day...

 

[Aaron1997]

Also tonight is the Karisuma Tokaigi qualifier and speeking of great Wifi players YB will make his Offline debut.

His Opponents Tonight

Ranai
9B
Earth
HIKARU
Kisha
Ginko
Taihetia
Rain
Nietono
Sigma
OCEAN
Fuwa
DIO
Oishiitofu
Kuro

Stream: http://live.nicovideo.jp/watch/lv287417637

 

[Nah]

Idk man, I'm pretty sure Link and TL are great at camping bowser out

there's always something I forget

always

 

[Stiga]

ZeRo's opinions may be strange many times, but they're grounded in his understanding of the game at least, that much is hard to deny.

He's right about Bowser to some extent. Bowser on the ground has an incredible neutral game. Just look at the characters Nairo brings him out against, they are all characters strong at playing a traditional neutral: Sheik, Diddy Kong, Marth, Cloud. Characters with disjointed hitboxes and zoners who rely on spacing characters out have some difficulty dealing with Bowser's jab and pivot grab.

Bowser is built like a close-range fighter with twice or three times the usual range of a close-range fighter. This messes up the usual zoner > CQC dynamic and makes him a good pick against zoners.

Think about choosing Mario against Marth, then give Mario fists three times their normal size in exchange for a bulkier body. Would you take that trade in that MU? Definitely.

Those who are confused by the idea of Diddy vs. Bowser being even: just think about Diddy's usual playstyle (he plays much like a zoner, a swordsman), and it'll start to make sense. Diddy throws out a b-air and Bowser pivot grabs him for it. Or calls out his landing and up-bs on the ground. Or jabs him out of his d-tilt. Or just pivot jabs the monkey flip... Bowser has options. DK was once believed to do alright vs. Diddy in neutral, and then it was discovered that DK just didn't have enough ways off of the ledge for it to matter. Grounded Bowser has even more tools than grounded DK, and also traps Diddy at the ledge just like Diddy traps him.

Sonic and ZSS remain the only characters that I don't want to be fighting as Bowser (these matchups are -2 at least). ZSS has a special anti-Bowser advantage state, and Sonic can just zone him out all day without much issue. Bayonetta is probably only bad on certain stages.

If I had to imagine a Bowser getting first in tournament, it'd be with a secondary meant specifically to handle Sonic and ZSS and sometimes Bayonetta. Characters that come to mind here are Villager, Megaman, and Pikachu. Or you could just go Cloud, if you believe (like I do) that the Cloud-Bayonetta matchup could swing to Cloud's favor someday.

This is mostly all ok except Bayo-Cloud will never be in Cloud's favour cause of of his awful recovery.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

[...] YB will make his smash 4 Offline debut.

Small but important nitpick!

 

[BTVolta]

Karisuma Tokaigi Qualifier (120 entrants) (Nagoya, Chubu, Japan)
Bracket:http://challonge.com/KarisumaTQT

1st Ranai
2nd Chanshu
3rd Kuro
4th 9B
5th DNG|Nietono ,
5th Sigma ,
7th Kame
7th Shogun
9th NAI ,
9th Lv.1
9th HIKARU
9th Rizeasu ,,,,
13th Fuwa
13th YB
13th Earth ,
13th Gobu

Impressive performance from Chanshu beating Rain, Earth, Lv.1, Sigma, 9B and Kuro only losing to Ranai. Nietono also almost beat Ranai losing a last hit last stock situation game 3.
YB pulls an impressive 13th at his first offline tourney beating OCEAN in pools then Eda and Taiheita in bracket.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Mr. "Infinite Neutral" Ramin.
Good lord, this guy really is the worst top player at killing.

Edit: ZeRo and Tweek showing why I think +is the best team in the game. Good luck finding a Sheik, though.

 

[Peppermint1201]

Mr. "Infinite Neutral" Ramin.
Good lord, this guy really is the worst top player at killing.

What else do you expect from a brawl vet who mains 1.1.6 sheik?

 

[TDK]

Mr. "Infinite Neutral" Ramin.
Good lord, this guy really is the worst top player at killing.

Did something happen?

 

[Luigi player]

Did something happen?

There was a tourney in the Netherlands (europe) just now and Larry beat Ramin in WFs 3:2.

Ramin actually won GF 1 & 2 and the tourney, tho. Were pretty hype matches, though Ramin did get put into the blastzone from a stretcher at TaC in WFs once, lol.

Larry lived up to 180+ % most of the time (even 200+ a few times) so I guess that's what he's referring to.

 

[Aaron1997]

Ignore this