Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Nobie]

Yea he beat KEN in GFs with and from losers I think

KEN came from Loser's, beating Earth's Corrin. Earth switched to Pit in the second match and won.

BTW, I am all for differentiating KEN from Melee Ken by using all caps.

Also, RE: Palutena, in that video where Zero plays Leo in Spanish, Zero mentions that he thinks Palutena is high tierish.

 

[teddystalin]

KEN came from Loser's, beating Earth's Corrin. Earth switched to Pit in the second match and won.

It's not as cut and dry as that: Over three sets, Earth's Pit went 2-2, with one win in WF and one in the second set of GF. His Corrin won 6 games over KEN's Sonic and 1 against his Pikachu.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Wait, wait. Are we not at the point in the meta where we understand that trash belongs in the garbage can?

Palutena is garbage. She does not belong in serious competition. Can you lose if you have no idea how to fight her?

Sure can. Does that mean she is worth a damn? Not at all.

These are the characters that are worth



These are the characters that are semi-worth



Honorable mention worth





This is it guys.

This is the game.

 

[Fenny]

Wait, wait. Are we not at the point in the meta where we understand that trash belongs in the garbage can?

Palutena is garbage. She does not belong in serious competition. Can you lose if you have no idea how to fight her?

Sure can. Does that mean she is worth a damn? Not at all.

These are the characters that are worth



These are the characters that are semi-worth



Honorable mention worth





This is it guys.

This is the game.

Peach in HM and I agree.

 

[TDK]

A lot of top players have a lot of faith in Peach, for what it's worth.

 

[InfinitySoul]

Wait, wait. Are we not at the point in the meta where we understand that trash belongs in the garbage can?

Palutena is garbage. She does not belong in serious competition. Can you lose if you have no idea how to fight her?

Sure can. Does that mean she is worth a damn? Not at all.

These are the characters that are worth



These are the characters that are semi-worth



Honorable mention worth





This is it guys.

This is the game.

That kind of mentality is very sad. Whoever doesn't shine are just put in the trash can without even taking the time of rubbing them ?

Dropping a low tier for a better tier because you feel it holds you back is normal.

But the way you are phrasing, sticking to anyone who isn't at least high tier is shameful. Which is the exact opposite. If a top player is willing to take a hit on his chance to win to stick to his favourite character is good for everybody.

 

[Emblem Lord]

That kind of mentality is very sad. Whoever doesn't shine are just put in the trash can without even taking the time of rubbing them ?

Dropping a low tier for a better tier because you feel it holds you back is normal.

But the way you are phrasing, sticking to anyone who isn't at least high tier is shameful. Which is the exact opposite. If a top player is willing to take a hit on his chance to win to stick to his favourite character is good for everybody.

What in the world do concepts like shame have to do with...

WINNING?!

It's been over two years. Every character has been explored and given plenty of time to grow and evolve.

Play time is over

Side note - Peach added to honorable mention worth

 

[MrGameguycolor]

Wait, wait. Are we not at the point in the meta where we understand that trash belongs in the garbage can?

Palutena is garbage. She does not belong in serious competition. Can you lose if you have no idea how to fight her?

Sure can. Does that mean she is worth a damn? Not at all.

These are the characters that are worth



These are the characters that are semi-worth



Honorable mention worth





This is it guys.

This is the game.

Well if change & character progression didn't exist.
But that's just not the case here.

 

[Krysco]

Wait, wait. Are we not at the point in the meta where we understand that trash belongs in the garbage can?

Palutena is garbage. She does not belong in serious competition. Can you lose if you have no idea how to fight her?

Sure can. Does that mean she is worth a damn? Not at all.

These are the characters that are worth



These are the characters that are semi-worth



Honorable mention worth





This is it guys.

This is the game.

I notice a lack of plumbers in those lists. The green one being somewhat understandable but Mario isn't even semi-worth or an HM? Or was he merely forgotten?

 

[Emblem Lord]

Oh snaps you right. Forgot Mr.Videogame himself.

Added to worth.

 

[Nu~]

Lucario isn't worth it?

 

[InfinitySoul]

It's been over two years. Every character has been explored and given plenty of time to grow and evolve.

Play time is over

Side note - Peach added to honorable mention worth

I disagree. Two years is not enough.

aMSa made yoshi look like a real character in 2013. More than ten years after the game's release.

For smash 4 exemples, so many characters positions are still up to debate : Robin for instance, in your "worth list" you already have 20 characters, but Dath believes Robin is top 20.


Even if they cannot make it to the upper echelon of the tier list, we shouldn't discard them as if they don't even exist on the CSS anymore.

 

[Fenny]

I notice a lack of plumbers in those lists. The green one being somewhat understandable but Mario isn't even semi-worth or an HM? Or was he merely forgotten?

Forgotten

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I personally wouldn't put Peach in HM. Same song and dance we heard from Brawl.

Corrin and Lucas I'm both expecting to drop.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Lucario is required to get man-handled to even be a threat.

So you tell me.

 

[Nu~]

It's been over two years. Every character has been explored and given plenty of time to grow and evolve.

Also, this sounds a bit disingenuous. 2 years really isn't enough time for things to be set in stone. You still have character mains discovering new things every day and yet 2 yrs is the cut off point?

 

[Fenny]

I personally wouldn't put Peach in HM. Same song and dance we heard from Brawl.

Corrin and Lucas I'm both expecting to drop.

The fact that Samsora is doing as well as he is while only using Rosa as a backup on occasion is kind of a rebuttal to this notion in and of itself.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I disagree. Two years is not enough.

aMSa made yoshi look like a real character in 2013. More than ten years after the game's release.

For smash 4 exemples, so many characters positions are still up to debate : Robin for instance, in your "worth list" you already have 20 characters, but Dath believes Robin is top 20.


Even if they cannot make it to the upper echelon of the tier list, we shouldn't discard them as if they don't even exist on the CSS anymore.

Melee also took many years to develop because it was a different age.

In this current age of twitch, youtube, the internet, etc, games will grow much faster and metas will expand at a quicker rate.

And guess what? Yoshi is still not good sooooo..what exactly are we trying to say here?

Robin is ok imo.

Robin also cannot win EVO without at least 2 other characters backing him up.

And I am sure you know that.

And also guys wtf...are we comparing Palutena to Robin? The hell? You can look at their normals ALONE and come to a conclusion about which character you are better off putting your time into.

You wanna play Robin cool. You want to play Palutena or Zelda? Ok buddy. Don't get mad though if you sink 5 years into this game and don't have anything to show for it. There is definitely a line you need to draw in the sand if you are playing to WIN

 

[Krysco]

Decided to look at Brawl's tier lists and the one that came out just after its 2 years was the 4th which had ZSS out of top 10, D3 still in top 10, Snake was still deemed 2nd best and G&W was still deemed high tier (albeit barely). Only other notable thing was that Olimar was 10th and is now 3rd but regardless, it was established that he was a good character.

Different times but it was a more similar time to what we have now than the first 2 years Melee had. With so few notable changes between then and now, I don't think it's too far off for this to be the 'cut off' point for finding out who all is worth using and who isn't in Sm4sh assuming no more patches, including any changes that may come with the Switch version. Course, Brawl was also a much bigger trainwreck of imbalance than Sm4sh is so that could just be a showing of how easily and quickly broken stuff was found in Brawl.

 

[ZeldaMaster]

All these Marth "is possibly not top tier" posts are triggering me...

Marth is not only top tier, but top 5 and even top 3 possibly. MKLeo demonstrated the potential of Marth, and guess what, that potential ran through the likes of ZeRo, Ally, Anti, VoiD, and Larry Lurr. He DEMOLISHED each and every one of them, and guess what? Each of those players have had more experience in international competition and have developed their respective mains far beyond what Leo has done. That man leveled up so much when he stayed with Keitaro's crew. And he isn't done yet. Marth still has so much more potential. I think many of you underestimate what the power distribution on Marth's sword means. By using an array of sourspots and tipper combinations, Marth has a considerably higher capability to string together moves than many other characters.

Leo was the harbinger for Marth mains to unleash their potential. His spacing game and awesome neutral make him a definite top 5.

Marth is definitively better than the likes of Diddy Kong, Shiek, Cloud, Mario, and many more. If all those character were played at a high potential, Marth would still objectively win.

 

[|RK|]

I don't see Bowser in that list

In any case, I don't see a point in making a list like that. A good few characters not on that list are still surprising people, and will continue to. And considering how the past couple tournaments have continued to reveal new threats, I'd certainly say it's too early.

 

[Nah]

All these Marth "is possibly not top tier" posts are triggering me...

Marth is not only top tier, but top 5 and even top 3 possibly. MKLeo demonstrated the potential of Marth, and guess what, that potential ran through the likes of ZeRo, Ally, Anti, VoiD, and Larry Lurr. He DEMOLISHED each and every one of them, and guess what? Each of those players have had more experience in international competition and have developed their respective mains far beyond what Leo has done. That man leveled up so much when he stayed with Keitaro's crew. And he isn't done yet. Marth still has so much more potential. I think many of you underestimate what the power distribution on Marth's sword means. By using an array of sourspots and tipper combinations, Marth has a considerably higher capability to string together moves than many other characters.

Leo was the harbinger for Marth mains to unleash their potential. His spacing game and awesome neutral make him a definite top 5.

Marth is definitively better than the likes of Diddy Kong, Shiek, Cloud, Mario, and many more. If all those character were played at a high potential, Marth would still objectively win.

Not that I disagree with the notion that Marth is (likely) top tier now, but saying he's "definitively" better than Sheik or Diddy is a bit of a stretch, and we really should not say that a character is.....basically anything....based on one performance by one player.

Also InfinitySoul yes Dath believes Robin is a top 20 character but that doesn't mean that Robin IS a top 20 character to has the potential to be anything more than a mid tier

 

[Peppermint1201]

Marth is definitively better than the likes of Diddy Kong, Shiek, Cloud, Mario, and many more. If all those character were played at a high potential, Marth would still objectively win.

How many EVOs has Marth won? Look at the accolades of Diddy, Sheik, and Mario and tell me with a straight face that Marth is magically better than them after having one exceptional tournament.

When it comes to majors, Diddy has gotten first place more times than Marth has gotten top 16. Sheik and Mario too have consistently placed higher than Marth for well over a year at this point. Don't be ridiculous.

MKLeo's ground game, hardened by Meta Knight and Cloud experience, meshes perfectly with Marth and makes a ridiculously scary opponent. However, like Pikachu and Villager we can't praise the character too much when only one person is getting top 8 with them.

 

[T4ylor]

It only takes one exceptional player to demonstrate what a character is really capable of.

Emblem Lord What's your opinion on Ness? Didn't expect him to make the cut on a list like that. I have a rather low opinion of him and would sooner put others like Pit or Olimar in this spot

 

[ReRaze]

What in the world do concepts like shame have to do with...

WINNING?!

It's been over two years. Every character has been explored and given plenty of time to grow and evolve.

Play time is over

Side note - Peach added to honorable mention worth

Not everyone has had the same amount of effort or number of people driving their meta though. E.g in 2 years, Sheik and Diddy have probably had a whole lot more development than the Pits, Pacmans, etc

It's a vicious cycle where people who want to win see someone do well in a tournament with a character, interest is peaked and more people flock to that character, more people are labbing and practicing the character, the characters meta develops, its community grows more people start doing well at tournaments with said character and the cycle repeats. I mean there's nothing really wrong with that, a tried and true method is preferable if you're going to invest time in a character and I don't blame people for having that mentality if they want to win but its kinda the cause of alot of other characters being left underdeveloped compared to the rest.

Nobody considered mewtwo a top threat even after the buffs until Abadango gave the character a little push. I'm not saying that Robin or Pits will suddenly be top tier too if they get the same push just that perhaps more characters would be given a place on your "worthy" list had the same amount of effort been put into all of them. Alot of characters you haven't listed have placed really well in tournament before so potential is definitely there.

 

[JB333]

Wait, wait. Are we not at the point in the meta where we understand that trash belongs in the garbage can?

Palutena is garbage. She does not belong in serious competition. Can you lose if you have no idea how to fight her?

Sure can. Does that mean she is worth a damn? Not at all.

These are the characters that are worth



These are the characters that are semi-worth



Honorable mention worth





This is it guys.

This is the game.

Although I agree with the characters you mentioned and their positions, I do think there is a little more wiggling room for the HM worth tier. and are the characters I think have just enough to have some sort of impact.

 

[Nobie]

I have this rough theory when it comes to players and character perception:

When it comes to opponents, a player who thrives on stability is most threatened by volatility. Conversely, a player who thrives on volatility is most threatened by stability.

ZeRo, who is all about consistently winning in neutral, rates characters like Ryu, Lucario, and Palutena higher than expected because they can make it feel like all of your hard work was for nothing.

On the other hand, Dabuz uses characters who have strong defensive properties but whose power ebbs and flows (Luma, Pikmin). Thus, stable characters feel tougher to him because like they're never without options.

 

[Emblem Lord]

*Delete* Bleh

 

[Emblem Lord]

I can counter you guys right now and say that Marth had an army (Get it? He is the general of his army in his games) behind him since day one, but he never did much because he was booty. Doesn't matter who pushes your meta if you aren't worth the time in the first place.

Tools matter guys.

I am sorry if that bothers some of you, but it is the truth.

Ness stuff - I like Lucas over him but metagame wise he has done his fair. I think he will drop tho. I feel Lucas is much more solid.

Bowser and DK - I like Bowser. Solid fundamental character. We need to see more of him though. But losing to basically every top tier means he is kinda not worth, wouldn't you say? Same for DK.

 

[|RK|]

I really could counter you guys right now and say that Marth had an army (Get it? He is the general of his army in his games) behind him since day one, but he never did much because he was booty. Doesn't matter who pushes your meta if you aren't worth the time in the first place.

Tools matter guys.

I am sorry if that bothers some of you, but it is the truth.

No one thinks tools don't matter. But if that's the extent of the argument, we could have made your list the day after 1.1.6 dropped. But we waited for people to prove potential and use the tools a character has at hand in smart ways. That's how characters rise in the first place.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Characters do not rise.

Only the perception of the masses changes.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

Characters do not rise.

Only the perception of the masses changes.

Which means they rise...

 

[G. Stache]

I'd argue that pocket characters are worth putting time into. They aren't really that amazing if you're just putting time into solely them obviously, but they can create options for you in certain scenarios. Luigi, for example, will never win anything big alone, but he handles a few of problem MUs that other characters tend to have troubles in (Diddy, Mario and Fox mostly). I'd like to say ditto for Olimar and Bowser, but I agree that Bowser really only has an intimidation factor and a few evenish MUs against the top tiers instead of actual positive MUs and I don't know anything about Olimar besides that Dabuz has been doing well with him.

 

[Nu~]

Characters do not rise.

Only the perception of the masses changes.

But doesn't this eliminate your first argument?

If the crystal doesn't change, but only our angle of viewing it does...why assert that we've seen all sides already?
How do you know that there isn't something else to be discovered on the horizon?


I think a conviction as strong as yours this early on is a bit damaging to game growth overall.

 

[JB333]

I can counter you guys right now and say that Marth had an army (Get it? He is the general of his army in his games) behind him since day one, but he never did much because he was booty. Doesn't matter who pushes your meta if you aren't worth the time in the first place.

Tools matter guys.

I am sorry if that bothers some of you, but it is the truth.

Ness stuff - I like Lucas over him but metagame wise he has done his fair. I think he will drop tho. I feel Lucas is much more solid.

Bowser and DK - I like Bowser. Solid fundamental character. We need to see more of him though. But losing to basically every top tier means he is kinda not worth, wouldn't you say? Same for DK.

Well, you're not wrong about Bowser and DK losing to a lot of top tier characters (if not all of them). I still think they have some of the offensive ingredients to do things, but those large hurtboxes do basically kill them in critical MU's. Oh and DK's landing options are garbage... can't believe I forgot that.

 

[Emblem Lord]

But doesn't this eliminate your first argument?

If the crystal doesn't change, but only our angle of viewing it does...why assert that we've seen all sides already?
How do you know that there isn't something else to be discovered on the horizon?


I think a conviction as strong as yours this early on is a bit damaging to game growth overall.

You...are so young.

I almost feel bad.

But anyway, there is so much more to metagame growth then burying your head in the sand and saying "la la la my char has never done anything in a major, but I'm sure he has untapped potential, I just need to train harder la la la"

Also when the hell did I ever say a char shouldn't get pushed? There seems to be this really ignorant and objectively incorrect idea that a chars meta is ONLY pushed when he/she goes well in a large tournament.

That is just blatantly false.

And the other side of that coin is just because a character is dominating tournaments doesn't mean they are evolving.

I would say MK capped VERY early in Brawl's life compared to many other characters, but his tools were so dominant that it simply didn't matter.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

I haven't been playing Smash seriously for long (Like only a year) but I've been playing competitively and just playing games my whole life. So I can understand what Emblem Lord is saying when character's have almost been tapped in potential. Yes it's only been two years but we live in a age where I can look up frame data, combos and the percentages they work at, examples on how my character can beat other characters so on and so on with a few clicks, it's simply not going to take a long time for ceilings to be reached anymore especially in a game like Smash 4 which doesn't have a ton of tech like say Melee does. That's not to say Smash 4 doesn't have depth it's got plenty to it but it just doesn't take as long to get good as it used to with all the resources we have available to us.

If you were playing Melee competitively back before we had all these resources it took a lot longer to get good, you had to figure things out for the most part yourself or if you were lucky to have a scene from there (That's another thing thier are way more scenes now than what used to be and way more people playing than before) that's why it's taken so long for even the best character in Melee, Fox to reach the levels he had reached. Now with all the players to train against and information out there to learn it doesn't take as long to get good and hit your potential in Melee you have "Doc Kiddies" (people who started playing Melee after the smash documentary) who are beating seasoned veterans and placing very well only having played the game in half the time some of the veterans have been

Now that's not to say there isn't room to grow for characters in Smash 4, it's only been two years and the meta has finally started to stabilize without the fear of patches, I think we have PLENTY of room for a lot of characters to develop and become better but it's not going to be a lot longer before the amount they can grow is reached and sadly for some characters barring the discovery of some new tech or a patch are a lot closer to that cap than others. Characters like Pac-Man who had a top level player before (Abadongo) and solid high level players using them since day one yet haven't gotten a ton of success for example I believe are reaching their potentials. TLTC is dropping Palutena meaning he may feel that he's reaching his potential with the character.

TL;DR: Don't give up on your developing your character but don't be foolish this is just how competitive games become over time.

Sorry for any grammar/spelling errors am on mobile and I don't feel like proof reading /blogpost

 

[Heracr055]

It only takes one exceptional player to demonstrate what a character is really capable of.

Emblem Lord What's your opinion on Ness? Didn't expect him to make the cut on a list like that. I have a rather low opinion of him and would sooner put others like Pit or Olimar in this spot

Pit and Dark Pit are quite vanilla in this meta. They have a tool for arguably any situation, and do pretty well in the neutral. The thing is, they do not have a polarizing option in their kit. Bayonetta's Witch Time/Witch Twist/Bullet Arts, Diddy's Banana & Dtilt setups, Cloud's Limit Cross Slash, etc come to mind. These can turn the tide in an instant during a match. The Pits don't have access to one of these, and this coupled with a top/high tier full of foes with those tools means Pit won't be ascending anywhere higher than upper mid tier.

 

[SaltyKracka]

That kind of mentality is very sad. Whoever doesn't shine are just put in the trash can without even taking the time of rubbing them ?

Dropping a low tier for a better tier because you feel it holds you back is normal.

But the way you are phrasing, sticking to anyone who isn't at least high tier is shameful. Which is the exact opposite. If a top player is willing to take a hit on his chance to win to stick to his favourite character is good for everybody.

You would be better off lamenting the sort of game that engenders this mindset, because you're sure not going be able to dissuade it.

I have nothing to say as regards idiots who confuse one player beating other players (and having them make convenient mistakes, e.g. Battlefield, not punishing missed Dolphin Slashes) for the character being the most powerful in the game.

 

[QualityQ]

Wait, wait. Are we not at the point in the meta where we understand that trash belongs in the garbage can?

Palutena is garbage. She does not belong in serious competition. Can you lose if you have no idea how to fight her?

Sure can. Does that mean she is worth a damn? Not at all.

These are the characters that are worth



These are the characters that are semi-worth



Honorable mention worth





This is it guys.

This is the game.

*Delete* Bleh

You...are so young.

I almost feel bad.

But anyway, there is so much more to metagame growth then burying your head in the sand and saying "la la la my char has never done anything in a major, but I'm sure he has untapped potential, I just need to train harder la la la"

Also when the hell did I ever say a char shouldn't get pushed? There seems to be this really ignorant and objectively incorrect idea that a chars meta is ONLY pushed when he/she goes well in a large tournament.

That is just blatantly false.

And the other side of that coin is just because a character is dominating tournaments doesn't mean they are evolving.

I would say MK capped VERY early in Brawl's life compared to many other characters, but his tools were so dominant that it simply didn't matter.

These posts feel like they're designed to trigger, so I guess I'll throw my hat into the ring.

First of all your list of "the game" is almost completely objective. I know this because one month ago you would have put Marth into the "semi-worth" pile. Not to mention whatever you define as "Honorable mention." Hell, no one even mentioned Olimar yet.

Second of all, if the metagame were as stagnant as you claim it is Beefy Smash Doods and My Smash Corner would not be posting videos and I would not have seen this posted today. If you need more evidence, consider the progress made in footstooling the past few months. It is a complete guess to claim what step-dashing will do for the game.

Third, about characters. I won't repeat myself, but the meta is hardly developed and there are still several characters that could fit a definition of "competitively viable." That definition changes depending on whether you are talking about a local, major, supermajor, or whatever. Furthermore, counterpicking has proven time and time again as a competitively viable strategy. It is very common for "lesser" characters to have a good matchup against a particular character.

So long as counterpicking exists and characters cannot overpower their awful matchups, such characters will remain on the scene. Which means "the game" is not as simple as you claim it to be.