Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[|RK|]

Another MKLeo and Mr. R set, another very convincing victory from Leo. 2-0.

Also, Marss is playing super well - beat Zinoto 3-0. Currently up against Leo after Leo reset the bracket.

EDIT: Leo wins 3-2

 

[ぱみゅ]

K

i wouldn't say loses to a lot? Maybe ness and I don't really agree with Luigi tbh I think dtilt and quick attack make the matchup super ok. Who else really convincingly?

Convincingly: Corrin.
Suspect: Meta Knight, Toon Link, Peach, G&W.
I have no idea: Ryu, Lucario, Villager, Lucas, Pits, Olimar, Wario
IMO

 

[TDK]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YsRjCHmo8k

Some cool stuff in here. It looks like Peach may have yet another infinite (What is this, three?).

 

[Prophet06]

Convincingly: Corrin.
Suspect: Meta Knight, Toon Link, Peach, G&W.
I have no idea: Ryu, Lucario, Villager, Lucas, Pits, Olimar, Wario
IMO

 

[~ Gheb ~]

[...]Villager gets shut down by a sizable portion of the cast [...]

Except not.

Ranai is not doing as well at the tournaments he is going to

Do you even know his recent results?

So Wrath thinks Sonic has no losing match-ups.....

... and?

Aside from Das Koopa, I haven't seen anyone mention Corrin. Gheb's post doesn't even have him mentioned, instead opting for MM, Villager and Tink..

My post totally mentions Corrin though ...

 

[Browny]

I'm not seeing how Marth outright "loses" to Diddy and Mewtwo.

Marth has bad landing options and Mewtwo has extremely powerful, arguably the best, punishes against landings. Its a serious issue when you have to be in the air to approach Mewtwo since you can't challenge dtilt or win a trade with fair.

It's like the difficulty with sheik as luigi. great edgeguarding vs slow, linear recovery. That one aspect of gameplay is enough to tip the entire matchup one way even despite luigis amazing combo potential on sheik.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Marth has bad landing options and Mewtwo has extremely powerful, arguably the best, punishes against landings. Its a serious issue when you have to be in the air to approach Mewtwo since you can't challenge dtilt or win a trade with fair.

It's like the difficulty with sheik as luigi. great edgeguarding vs slow, linear recovery. That one aspect of gameplay is enough to tip the entire matchup one way even despite luigis amazing combo potential on sheik.

So if a character has a super glaring single weakness versus one character even if they have other strengths it gives the other character an advantage? Scary....

 

[Ziodyne 21]

So if a character has a super glaring single weakness versus one character even if they have other strengths it gives the other character an advantage? Scary....

Well why does lose so badly to ? The sole reason is Ness's uniquely bad recovery and how easily Rosa can exploit it

Its even why can do so well vs despite Coud technically outperforming Bayo in quite a few ways. (Mobility, Frame Data, KO moves etc.)

Lots ot times MU's in the game are not just determined by the strengths vs the weaknesses of the character. But also if one has the tools to better exploit the weakness of the other and also ways to get around the other characters main strengths

 

[ArnoldPalmer]

Mewtwo exploits Marths weaknesses very well while also being a better designed character overall. If Mewtwo had more reliable oos the matchup would be pretty own sided

 

[FeelMeUp]

Let's goooooooooooo I'm so hyped for the future of sheik lol (I have to give credit to the people who push the tech itself and me to use it) pic.twitter.com/4T0Al91RwA

— Void@LA Regionals (@gsmVoiD) December 10, 2016

Glad to see a top Sheik has finally started to use it.
The major mobility and option boosts are what makes me keep saying needles are the best projectile in the game.

 

[Djent]

Hi all! Long time no theorycraft.

I just wanted to drop back in to say that Hirosuma's Tokaigi 2017 qualifier will be starting momentarily on Niconico. It's smaller than your typical Umebura/Sumabato, but it's still pretty stacked. Translated pools are here.

 

[Nu~]

Let's goooooooooooo I'm so hyped for the future of sheik lol (I have to give credit to the people who push the tech itself and me to use it) pic.twitter.com/4T0Al91RwA

— Void@LA Regionals (@gsmVoiD) December 10, 2016

Glad to see a top Sheik has finally started to use it.
The major mobility and option boosts are what makes me keep saying needles are the best projectile in the game.

Why don't cloud mains do this too with limit charge cancel? Of course it isn't as fast as sheik's, but you still gain the ability to use tilts and smash attacks out of a run without stopping.



(Pacman can do it too with Bf cancelling but his run + tilts/smashes suck T_T)

 

[Deleted member]

Hi all! Long time no theorycraft.

I just wanted to drop back in to say that Hirosuma's Tokaigi 2017 qualifier will be starting momentarily on Niconico. It's smaller than your typical Umebura/Sumabato, but it's still pretty stacked. Translated pools are here.

Fangirling aside, I'm curious as to how these two will perform. Kome's been slowly on the rise lately with him being able to take KIT Festival over Shuton (although it was a very close set). Have no idea who U-ron is, but I hope he does well too!

 

[Shady Shaymin]

Let's goooooooooooo I'm so hyped for the future of sheik lol (I have to give credit to the people who push the tech itself and me to use it) pic.twitter.com/4T0Al91RwA

— Void@LA Regionals (@gsmVoiD) December 10, 2016

Glad to see a top Sheik has finally started to use it.
The major mobility and option boosts are what makes me keep saying needles are the best projectile in the game.

Sheik is the best character in Smash 4.

 

[Deleted member]

Sheik is the best character in Smash 4.

Not necessarily disagreeing with you, but jumping to conclusions, aren't we?

Let's see how VoiD and other Sheiks will implement this into their gameplay first.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Why don't cloud mains do this too with limit charge cancel? Of course it isn't as fast as sheik's, but you still gain the ability to use tilts and smash attacks out of a run without stopping.



(Pacman can do it too with Bf cancelling but his run + tilts/smashes suck T_T)

I see it with Jab out of run but Cloud's ground moves suck so it doesn't matter as much.
Sheik's ground moves out of run range from situational(Utilt and Dtilt) to borderline broken(jab and ftilt)

 

[|RK|]

Diddy's players should do it more too, tbh.

I've been practicing it with Popgun, since for Kirby, the ability to use normals out of a run is *huge*. He doesn't really have quick options from a run, you see.

Also, knowing Pac-Man can do it too? Makes practicing it more useful than I expected lol

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Can't the almighty M2 do this too?

Dtilt, dsmash, and jab out of a run seem a bit over the top

 

[Browny]

Toon Link will be the next character to join the ranks of Mewtwo/ZSS as gatekeepers of the highest tiers.

Jigglypuff isn't that bad, just a few horrendous matchups make it hard to progress. Nair is her best move, bair isnt even top 3.

Fox's fair footstool offstage should never happen against good players. Nothing he has is a true combo into it, you can see it coming from a mile away to airdodge it and he should be spiked for his effort. It hurts me seeing people choose a low recovery and dying stupidly early when a high recovery risks taking a few upairs. Seems like a pretty obvious trade to me which one I'd take. I expect a future where that kill option stops becoming a thing just like how Palutena jab-upsmash has died. Also how diddys dtilt-usmash is dying like I wrote about a few months ago. Are people noticing that this is working less often?

That's all for now.

 

[meticulousboy]

Any news on Peach recently in the game's meta? I'm still working on stuff with her on For Glory. Like, she has float Uair juggling on big characters.

 

[Aaron1997]

OCEAN > Earth 2-0

OCEANMAN

 

[ぱみゅ]

Fox's fair footstool offstage should never happen against good players. Nothing he has is a true combo into it, you can see it coming from a mile away to airdodge it and he should be spiked for his effort. It hurts me seeing people choose a low recovery and dying stupidly early when a high recovery risks taking a few upairs. Seems like a pretty obvious trade to me which one I'd take. I expect a future where that kill option stops becoming a thing just like how Palutena jab-upsmash has died. Also how diddys dtilt-usmash is dying like I wrote about a few months ago. Are people noticing that this is working less often?

That's all for now.

While I may agree that for Fox, the footstool doesn't seem guaranteed at all, there are setups into it, like Ftilt, or Bair at low %.
And Diddy's thing has never stopped working, it's just that people stopped challenging Diddy's Dtilt at the center of the stage (and Diddies still get a lot of Dtilt>Bair kills).

But now that we are on the topic, I expect Marth's jab to fall from grace, too. Not much mind you as it's still a very good move, but it isn't as reliable when the opponents are DIing away.

 

[David Viran]

While I may agree that for Fox, the footstool doesn't seem guaranteed at all, there are setups into it, like Ftilt, or Bair at low %.
And Diddy's thing has never stopped working, it's just that people stopped challenging Diddy's Dtilt at the center of the stage (and Diddies still get a lot of Dtilt>Bair kills).

But now that we are on the topic, I expect Marth's jab to fall from grace, too. Not much mind you as it's still a very good move, but it isn't as reliable when the opponents are DIing away.

Diddy's dtilt kill set ups are less common in high level play because people are getting good a DIing it away. This makes the true combo window a lot smaller and if near the ledge diddy can't get anything.

 

[Aaron1997]

Kome > Komorikiri 2-0

Yes that just Happened

No you didn't read that wrong

THIS IS A GOOD RESULT

 

[TDK]

OCEAN > Earth 2-0

OCEANMAN

Well guys, with Oceans taking over the earth I'm sure we'll all have drowned in a few hours. It was nice knowing you all.

 

[Browny]

While I may agree that for Fox, the footstool doesn't seem guaranteed at all, there are setups into it, like Ftilt, or Bair at low %.
And Diddy's thing has never stopped working, it's just that people stopped challenging Diddy's Dtilt at the center of the stage (and Diddies still get a lot of Dtilt>Bair kills).

No, those moves don't combo into it. Its close but it isn't true. It's hard to react to it but the point is if you are standing on the ledge and fox is next to you, you should expect the ftilt-fair attempt. It is as obvious as a Wario putting a bike on the ledge when you know he is going to use it to extend the waft hitbox to cover rolls etc.

Diddy's dtilt kill set ups are less common in high level play because people are getting good a DIing it away. This makes the true combo window a lot smaller and if near the ledge diddy can't get anything.

Exactly this

I proved a few months back that the combo is only true against Mewtwo at point blank range and it makes me happy seeing people DI out of it more when hit at mid range and beyond. Soon enough people will realise the combo window is so tight, its harder for the diddy to be perfect than it is to react and DI in time.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Are dair and utilt into fair at the edge around 30-45 not true, or something?
Talking about Fox.

and TheGoodGuava , Mewtwo can't instantly cancel shadowball without shielding so it doesn't work. I believe it's unique to when looking at the good characters.
Same reason Greninja can't do it.

 

[Das Koopa]

Hirosuma Tokaigi Qualifier (December 11th) (Japan) (72 Entrants) (Category 1)
1st: LG | Abadango
2nd: Kome
3rd: Ron ,
4th: Shuton
5th: OCEAN
5th: 2GG | Komorikiri
7th: Ginko
7th: Earth

 

[SSB ReVerb]

So Kome went solo Shulk all tournament and beat Shuton 2-1, Komorikiri 2-0, and Ron 2-1.

Even took a game off Abadango when they faced in Winners Semis.

I knew he was someone to look out for when I heard he beat Shuton way back but damn this is something else.

Glad to see him doing well and with Shulk nonetheless!

 

[DanGR]

Re: Fox falling fair

Running pivot ftilt (what some call 'hip check'), bair, and dair combo into it. Idk about uptilt- I would think a later hit of uptilt might do the trick. Very late dash attack at low percents might 50:50 (I'm not sure, but it sounds about right). You can string/frame trap some things into dair, or combo things into running pivot ftilt (bair at low/mid-ish percents immediately comes to mind). In a lot of situations at the edge (late dash attack/uptilt followup) Fox can 50:50 between bair and falling fair. On its own, drop off fair messes with a lot of recoveries.

I would never say it's simple to completely avoid falling fair since there's so much you gotta look out for. I disagree that it's just a matter of not getting hit at the edge- there's a lot of variables at play here. There's definite ways around it, but those ways usually mean taking free hits of other kinds to avoid the possibility of instant death. It's in the same vein of avoiding Fox' upair frame trap of uptilt/dash attack->upair by letting him upair you a couple times so you can gtfo. Fox is silly.

 

[Deleted member]

Kome's shaping up to be the best Shulk in Japan over Masha at this point. Beating Komo, Shuton, Ron and being able to take a game off Aba is actually insane. Masha technically has gone to more stuff and has better placements at larger events but I can see Kome really help pushing Shulk's meta further.

 

[Krysco]

My post totally mentions Corrin though ...

Just checked and it totally does must've focused too much on the character icons and skimmed past his name. My bad

 

[Deleted member]

Time for my opinion here:

Next year should move to mid tier. Maybe has a chance if IcyMist keeps up her results.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Time for my opinion here:

Next year should move to mid tier. Maybe has a chance if IcyMist keeps up her results.

All of these are already low mid though.....

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

All of these are already low mid though.....

Not according to the 4br, I think that's what she means.

 

[Rizen]

Time for my opinion here:

Next year should move to mid tier. Maybe has a chance if IcyMist keeps up her results.

IDK. I mean it depends on how you work out "tiers" in ssb4. Like on the current list:

I have trouble seeing anyone in E tier being worse than characters in F tier, well maybe Wario. While I could see characters like Link, Samus and Shulk moving to a higher position in F tier I can't say they're as good as the E tiers.

My logic for Link being "lower mid-tier" is he has a better chance to win than low tiers like Zelda, B jr, etc. I see tiers as separations of viability. In ssb4 most characters have at least some viability with good players behind them. Maybe that makes them mid-tier but in terms of 'who's better than who' I don't see said characters making much of a leap. IMO the low and bottom tiers as shown^ will be shuffled around a bit under the glass ceiling of the better mid tiers.

 

[Deleted member]

Not according to the 4br, I think that's what she means.

That's what I mean, yeah.

IDK. I mean it depends on how you work out "tiers" in ssb4. Like on the current list:

I have trouble seeing anyone in E tier being worse than characters in F tier, well maybe Wario. While I could see characters like Link, Samus and Shulk moving to a higher position in F tier I can't say they're as good as the E tiers.

My logic for Link being "lower mid-tier" is he has a better chance to win than low tiers like Zelda, B jr, etc. I see tiers as separations of viability. In ssb4 most characters have at least some viability with good players behind them. Maybe that makes them mid-tier but in terms of 'who's better than who' I don't see said characters making much of a leap. IMO the low and bottom tiers as shown^ will be shuffled around a bit under the glass ceiling of the better mid tiers.

They don't have to be better than anybody in E tier, they could just simply enter it. What you suggested would also be plausible.

I'm a firm believer in that will drop eventually to E, but that's just me.

 

[420quickscoper]

I find it pretty cool that Kome, a Shulk that kind of just appeared out of nowhere and has only attended 4 tournaments so far, has already beaten Shuton, Ron, You3, and Komorikri.

Another thing I find a bit surprising is Abadango's "rise" in Japan. Ever since Umebura 25, the only time he hasn't top 8'd a Japan tourney was Waseda Festival. Is he taking Japan tourneys more seriously now, or... what happened?

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Ok, I think we need to just need to all just agree right now that the latest 4BR tier list has already become outdated and is just wrong in a lot of places in accordance to current results right now.
To be fair its not really the fault of who compiled the data for the list and how, or that the overall information for was incorrect.. Its just that the overall meta of smash4 changed so quickly in the and overall results changed from so many characters over the following months in ways that almost no one really expected.

Just a few examples on some thing i think many people can agree on..
has come back in a big way and is likely among the best again
could be B or even A tier now. can be moved up too by proxy
Is still S tier, but is not the "2nd" best in the game"
and can rise up due to recent strong showing from some of their respective mains. Such as Samsora for Peach, Elegant for Luigi


I think we almost need to consider starting a new 4BR tier list already with how quickly the meta has changed. lol

 

[Deleted member]

Ok, I think we need to just need to all just agree right now that the latest 4BR tier list has already become outdated and is just wrong in a lot of places in accordance to current results right now.
To be fair its not really the fault of anyone for that the overall information for the tier list was faulty. Its just that the overall meta of smash4 changed so quickly in the and overall results changed from so many characters over the following months in ways that almost no one really expected.

Just a few examples on some thing i think many people can agree on..
has come back in a big way and is likely among the best again
could be B or even A tier now. can be moved up too by proxy
Is still S tier, but is not the "2nd" best in the game"
Is looking C-B tier now.


I think we almost need to consider starting a new 4BR tier list already with how quickly the meta has changed. lol

The next list is out to be somewhere around January, at least that's what I believe it said in the SB article. With ZeRo Saga and G4 up ahead we'll have a lot to take from as well. If anything I'm hoping that the letters have + and - this time, I still feel like S-H isn't that reflective of this game's balance. If it were something like S or A+ to F then that would be pretty rad.

could also likely see a rise with Elegant's recent performances.