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Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

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~ Gheb ~

Life is just a party
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Where's the idea coming from that Fox is a bad matchup for Link? That's the stuff of ancient times, Link has received several buffs that make him a respectable character now. You don't "just beat Link" anymore.

A few characters have turned out to be the punishing bags that everybody immediately clains they have a good matchup against. Not because they actually do but just because they know there's nobody who'll actually argue against. Wanna make your character's matchup spread look good? Just give yourself a +2 against Link, Duck Hunt, Pac-Man, Kirby or Samus and you're good. Nobody will ever call you out on it because nobody will argue for these characters. Nor will anybody ever question whether you've actually played against any of these characters or have a tournament record to cite. Massive props to Void for being better than that. I wish the smash community had more people like that.

:059:
 

ARISTOS

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Feint Jump and Helicopter Kick are insanely good moves that most characters would trade for, especially Feint Jump. Being able to hop out of disadvantageous situations is a top tier trait- imagine how much worse :4sheik: would be w/o Bouncing Fish or :4bayonetta2: without dABK.

That alone would turn any character from bad to at least decent. Helicopter Kick keeps him from being similar to Pikachu in regards to killing.
 

chaos11011

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Edit2: Raito:4duckhunt:> :4cloud2:Kameme 2-1
Yes Kameme went Cloud
Kameme out in 7th
Are there separate VODs for this? I'd love to see the Raito match play out cuz that's Duck Hunt's worst MU. I have a lot to learn if Raito was able to come through.
 

HeavyLobster

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Well, consider it this way.

If you knew that you had the option to play a Ganondorf that had a chargeable projectile for a Neutral B and an UpB that was actually useful (as opposed to being Captain Falcon's but worse in every possible way) would you be able to look at default Ganondorf and give him any serious consideration?
Except Ganondorf actually has good normals. Obviously a projectile capable of forcing approaches and a better recovery move would patch up some of his biggest weaknesses, but even without those Ganondorf still has his trademark raw power. 1111 Brawler has no distinguishing strengths with which to attract players. You'd obviously prefer his better moveset, but he's still enjoyable to play as is.
 

Aaron1997

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Illusion. Illusion. He also took Down Umeki 2-1.
chaos11011 chaos11011
He also took down Maguro which is one of the better Cloud's in Japan and won this tourney last time. Vods will be on Youtube but I can't remember the channel
 
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Illuminose

Smash Ace
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WHO?

Based on Haruki's database, this guy has entered 2 tournaments ever, getting 33rd at Umebura 23 in May losing to Nietono and KEN and 25th way back in November at the Umebura NicoNico qualifier (losing to Umeki and Shoot). He's ranked 37th on Sumamate. When people talk about unknowns coming out of the woodwork in Japan and performing at a top caliber...this is truly that in action.
 

Fenny

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View attachment 117036

Oh and guess what? Another Match-up Chart
Interesting, always thought Bayo vs Lucas was a even to slight advantage in Lucas' favour.

Less susceptible to combos due to being floaty and having a good air dodge, PK Fire does a good job spacing her out, and his advantage state is gotten out of grab, which Bayo hates (yeah its a tether but it's a relatively good tether).
 

EternalFlare

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Messages
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I still find DK to be better than bowser. Dk's cargo throw has more reward for damage and KO potential than bowsers grab game of up throw combos and kupa claw kills. Dk can grab more reliably since he can confirm his grabs off of down tilt or jab as well. Dk can use his super armored up special to get out of combos that bowser has to sit in because bowsers fastest aerial is frame 8. Dk can also edgeguard better with Bairs and up special. Bowsers slightly less reach and slower frame data piled on top gives little reason to choose the big turtle.

Over all it just seems like the Ding-Dong combo is just so much better at mitigating DK's bad MUs and bowser just doesn't have anything he can abuse and lean on that hard in bad MU's.
First of all Bowser also has a throw kill combo. Up throw to up air. And it kills earlier than DK's. Also these throw kill combos only work within a certain percent range and only as long as you don't have too much rage. Whereas Bowser's side B will continue to be a threat past these ranges. So Bowser definitely has the much more threatening grab game.

Bowser's pivot grab also has massive range (easily one of the best in the game) so it's arguable which character has an easier time landing grabs. I'd go with Bowser. If he can react to almost any kind of approach, he can beat it with a pivot grab.

DK's disadvantage might be better than Bowser's but it's still pretty awful. Even if he Up Bs out, he's going to land slowly with significant lag. He can try to retreat to a ledge but if there isn't one nearby or the opponent reaches him before then, he's still screwed.

Bowser's bair is harder to land offstage but it's way more rewarding than DK's bair. If he lands it even once offstage at high-midish percents, they are most certainly dead, whereas they can usually take a few DK bairs.
Regardless DK's offstage edge guarding might be better than Bowser's but onstage edge guarding is in Bowser's favour. Flame covers so many options off the ledge. And because his grab game is more rewarding at kill ranges as explained above, Bowser gets rewarded more for guessing or reacting to the correct getup option just once.

Finallly Bowser's grounded up B is a superior OOS option than anything DK has. It comes out fast and covers all around Bowser protecting him even from above and behind. DK's options to cover these areas OOS are significantly slower.
 
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SaltyKracka

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Except Ganondorf actually has good normals. Obviously a projectile capable of forcing approaches and a better recovery move would patch up some of his biggest weaknesses, but even without those Ganondorf still has his trademark raw power. 1111 Brawler has no distinguishing strengths with which to attract players. You'd obviously prefer his better moveset, but he's still enjoyable to play as is.
I'll grant you that Ganondorf possesses some good normals (utilt is a travesty and I have no idea why they don't just give him an actual move there), but if he had anything like the actual raw kill power he needs, he would be a much better character.

When his only actual kill setup is predicated on the game's slowest command grab and the opponent being bad at teching...he actually ends up being rather terrible at killing.
 
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TheGoodGuava

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I'll grant you that Ganondorf possesses some good normals (utilt is a travesty and I have no idea why they don't just give him an actual move there), but if he had anything like the actual raw kill power he needs, he would be a much better character.

When his only actual kill setup is predicated on the game's slowest command grab and the opponent being bad at teching...he actually ends up being rather terrible at killing.
Well idk about you but I'm always scared of getting hit with a stray fair, uair, bair, dtilt, ftilt, fsmash, or usmash. Dying at 60 because he read your ledge getup is never fun. His raw kill power is very threatening to lighter characters, so pretty much all top/high tiers
 
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FeelMeUp

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The issue with Mr. R is that he overextends a LOT and tends to leave so many openings that his survivability is extremely low.
You'll see multiple attempts at ledge jump reads with usmash, many autopilot combo attempts out of throws when the opponent is nowhere near the position he wants them to be, and a lot of rolls that leave him susceptible to be hard punished by rage moves.
VoiD focuses a bit too much on combo extensions while only using needles for combos and almost never in neutral, making him slightly weaker vs characters Sheik normally beats due to needle camping(G&W, Kirby, Luigi etc) and characters that can threaten Sheik during her PP combos(Ryu, Pika, Luigi).
Mr. R dies due to whiffed bouncing fish attempts and having his rolls read. VoiD dies to bad DI on combos and failing to space the opponent out then getting hit with a heavy attack.
But these openings should, ideally, never be there if you're playing this character.

Sheik isn't Diddy/Cloud. Unless you already know exactly where she will go beforehand, edgeguarding will not work.
She isn't Ryu. You can't run from her all game unless you're Mewtwo, because no other character can deal with needles well enough to risk not approaching.
She isn't Rosa. There's no single thing to get rid of in order to exploit her bad disadvantage and lack of "get off me" options.
This character's kit was made so flawlessly that if the Sheik player chooses to do so, you cannot get in on or punish this character.


So, that being said, lets talk about ZeRo's Sheik.
Good postpatch games to look at:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTfxqrDenfE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4PDii7qPn1k
Good prepatch game to look at in order to understand what makes his Sheik so potent:
https://youtu.be/yvaVqGn30Jw?t=2m13s
One thing you'll notice is that his playstyle is very boring on the surface. Never overcommits to anything. Abuses needles/fair/grab and the occasional nair a lot while making it almost impossible to get in on him.
Which is exactly what I spoke about before. ZeRo's playstyle was the absolute best for Sheik before the patch because he abused her most ridiculous options to the extremes.

He has THE BEST fair spacing, needle usage, and ability to get grabs out of any Sheik I've ever seen. Not only that, but getting off the ledge against him is an absolute nightmare.
So you gave the guy with the best neutral(at the time) and ledge traps in all of competitive Smash 4 a character that:
-grabbed and kill you at 120
-ledge trapped you better than any other
-reset to neutral on command
-left 0 openings
-had a better neutral than everyone else
After Sheik's inevitable nerfs, ZeRo's playstyle took a huge blow and now he can't really kill anymore.
If rage didn't exist I'm sure he would never be playing Diddy and still be the best Sheik player in the world. However, he more than anyone is a person that absolutely cannot kill a character like Mario or DK before 150 because the guy's playstyle doesn't allow him to take risks.
He's lost so much confidence after the break and nerfs and gets visibly tilted when he can't kill someone or dies super early.
Before he would be fine with winning neutral 100 times then eventually killing you because he would never make mistakes that allowed you to abuse 170% of rage.
But nowadays he'll get you to 150, panic, then hand you an opening on a silver platter so you can kill him at 80.
Those fancy kill setups like Down Throw>Bouncing Fish at the edge or Jab2>Tipper Dtilt>Uair are absolutely necessary for the character killing reliably below 140, and he never really does them.

But it's not all bad news. As you may have noticed, ZeRo still makes Sheik look like a broken character vs characters with bad mobility and/or bad recoveries. I hope he continues to use her over Diddy vs characters like Luigi, Mario, Roy, Fox, and Cloud. He's probably still the best in the world at these MUs.
 

Ninj4pikachu

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First of all Bowser also has a throw kill combo. Up throw to up air. And it kills earlier than DK's. Also these throw kill combos only work within a certain percent range and only as long as you don't have too much rage. Whereas Bowser's side B will continue to be a threat past these ranges. So Bowser definitely has the much more threatening grab game.

Bowser's pivot grab also has massive range (easily one of the best in the game) so it's arguable which character has an easier time landing grabs. I'd go with Bowser. If he can react to almost any kind of approach, he can beat it with a pivot grab.

DK's disadvantage might be better than Bowser's but it's still pretty awful. Even if he Up Bs out, he's going to land slowly with significant lag. He can try to retreat to a ledge but if there isn't one nearby or the opponent reaches him before then, he's still screwed.

Bowser's bair is harder to land offstage but it's way more rewarding than DK's bair. If he lands it even once offstage at high-midish percents, they are most certainly dead, whereas they can usually take a few DK bairs.
Regardless DK's offstage edge guarding might be better than Bowser's but onstage edge guarding is in Bowser's favour. Flame covers so many options off the ledge. And because his grab game is more rewarding at kill ranges as explained above, Bowser gets rewarded more for guessing or reacting to the correct getup option just once.

Finallly Bowser's grounded up B is a superior OOS option than anything DK has. It comes out fast and covers all around Bowser protecting him even from above and behind. DK's options to cover these areas OOS are significantly slower.
Ok number one, bowsers kill throw is weaker than DKs do some damn research. Number two, DK's grab range is better than bowsers and as I said before has confirms (bowser has none) meaning DK will always land more consistent grabs. It doesn't matter that bowsers bair has more reward, a single back air from both characters offstage is usually a death sentence. Also dk's bair combos into itself. while bowsers does not.
And no bowser does NOT get more reward for guessing a get up option because they both have options like side smash or giant punch to end stocks, dk can make a side smash read just as easy sir.

Now, bowser DOES have a faster OOS option and thas about all you got right. Flames are mediocre at best and they and I really wouldn't trade our hand slaps for your flame.
 

juddy96

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WHO?

Based on Haruki's database, this guy has entered 2 tournaments ever, getting 33rd at Umebura 23 in May losing to Nietono and KEN and 25th way back in November at the Umebura NicoNico qualifier (losing to Umeki and Shoot). He's ranked 37th on Sumamate. When people talk about unknowns coming out of the woodwork in Japan and performing at a top caliber...this is truly that in action.
About a week ago he was ranked top 10 in Sumamate, he rarely travels. He lives in the region of this tournament (Tohoku) and it's his youtube channel actually that stores the vods of this tournament series. Previous TSC results eluded Haruki's database because they were done on paper brackets and not challonge, but Esu hadn't won a TSC before either. He is considered the #2 ZSS in Japan, he just rarely enters anything
 
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TheGoodGuava

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I've always wondered, who's neutral b is better? Charizard or Bowsers? I'd say Charizards because its got less spread and more usable range but I don't know that much about Bowser
 

chaos11011

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The issue with Mr. R is that he overextends a LOT and tends to leave so many openings that his survivability is extremely low.
You'll see multiple attempts at ledge jump reads with usmash, many autopilot combo attempts out of throws when the opponent is nowhere near the position he wants them to be, and a lot of rolls that leave him susceptible to be hard punished by rage moves.
VoiD focuses a bit too much on combo extensions while only using needles for combos and almost never in neutral, making him slightly weaker vs characters Sheik normally beats due to needle camping(G&W, Kirby, Luigi etc) and characters that can threaten Sheik during her PP combos(Ryu, Pika, Luigi).
Mr. R dies due to whiffed bouncing fish attempts and having his rolls read. VoiD dies to bad DI on combos and failing to space the opponent out then getting hit with a heavy attack.
But these openings should, ideally, never be there if you're playing this character.

Sheik isn't Diddy/Cloud. Unless you already know exactly where she will go beforehand, edgeguarding will not work.
She isn't Ryu. You can't run from her all game unless you're Mewtwo, because no other character can deal with needles well enough to risk not approaching.
She isn't Rosa. There's no single thing to get rid of in order to exploit her bad disadvantage and lack of "get off me" options.
This character's kit was made so flawlessly that if the Sheik player chooses to do so, you cannot get in on or punish this character.


So, that being said, lets talk about ZeRo's Sheik.
Good postpatch games to look at:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTfxqrDenfE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4PDii7qPn1k
Good prepatch game to look at in order to understand what makes his Sheik so potent:
https://youtu.be/yvaVqGn30Jw?t=2m13s
One thing you'll notice is that his playstyle is very boring on the surface. Never overcommits to anything. Abuses needles/fair/grab and the occasional nair a lot while making it almost impossible to get in on him.
Which is exactly what I spoke about before. ZeRo's playstyle was the absolute best for Sheik before the patch because he abused her most ridiculous options to the extremes.

He has THE BEST fair spacing, needle usage, and ability to get grabs out of any Sheik I've ever seen. Not only that, but getting off the ledge against him is an absolute nightmare.
So you gave the guy with the best neutral(at the time) and ledge traps in all of competitive Smash 4 a character that:
-grabbed and kill you at 120
-ledge trapped you better than any other
-reset to neutral on command
-left 0 openings
-had a better neutral than everyone else
After Sheik's inevitable nerfs, ZeRo's playstyle took a huge blow and now he can't really kill anymore.
If rage didn't exist I'm sure he would never be playing Diddy and still be the best Sheik player in the world. However, he more than anyone is a person that absolutely cannot kill a character like Mario or DK before 150 because the guy's playstyle doesn't allow him to take risks.
He's lost so much confidence after the break and nerfs and gets visibly tilted when he can't kill someone or dies super early.
Before he would be fine with winning neutral 100 times then eventually killing you because he would never make mistakes that allowed you to abuse 170% of rage.
But nowadays he'll get you to 150, panic, then hand you an opening on a silver platter so you can kill him at 80.
Those fancy kill setups like Down Throw>Bouncing Fish at the edge or Jab2>Tipper Dtilt>Uair are absolutely necessary for the character killing reliably below 140, and he never really does them.

But it's not all bad news. As you may have noticed, ZeRo still makes Sheik look like a broken character vs characters with bad mobility and/or bad recoveries. I hope he continues to use her over Diddy vs characters like Luigi, Mario, Roy, Fox, and Cloud. He's probably still the best in the world at these MUs.
I absolutely love your Sheik posts. I learn a lot from them. Time to bookmark those videos and learn.
 

Fatmanonice

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I've always wondered, who's neutral b is better? Charizard or Bowsers? I'd say Charizards because its got less spread and more usable range but I don't know that much about Bowser
I think Bowser's flames are bigger and it has more range but it takes longer to cancel and recharge so I think they just about even out. Don't quote me on that though.
 

Swamp Sensei

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I've always wondered, who's neutral b is better? Charizard or Bowsers? I'd say Charizards because its got less spread and more usable range but I don't know that much about Bowser
Charizard.

Bowser can't use fire breath as quick and the fact that the far flames cause no flinching stops the main point of the move.
 
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Joey T.

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Question for FeelMeUp FeelMeUp , since I love your in-depth posts about Sheik. I can't recall where, but I heard (or read) that ZeRo's Sheik was limited because he refused to perfect pivot a lot, when Sheik gets a lot of profit on doing so. So my question is: do you think that statement about ZeRo not perfect pivoting is true, and does not perfect pivoting hurt Sheik's gameplan all that much?
 

FeelMeUp

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Question for FeelMeUp FeelMeUp , since I love your in-depth posts about Sheik. I can't recall where, but I heard (or read) that ZeRo's Sheik was limited because he refused to perfect pivot a lot, when Sheik gets a lot of profit on doing so. So my question is: do you think that statement about ZeRo not perfect pivoting is true, and does not perfect pivoting hurt Sheik's gameplan all that much?
Without Perfect Pivot you can get roughly 39-45% off a grab at 0 on Falcon.
With it you can get 65-70 or death.
The same is true for Fox, Falco, Bowser, DDD, etc.
Without PP you cannot get ftilt>pp utilt>fullhop needles>nair(or fair>bouncing fish), which is around a 40% conversion that works on most of the cast.
PP isn't necessary, but there's no reason to not take the positional advantages and combo extensions it gives you.
 

Kofu

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View attachment 117036

Oh and guess what? Another Match-up Chart
I don't pretend to know a lot about Lucas (he's probably one of the characters I'm worst with) but I really don't think he has a solid advantage over Game & Watch. I respect Taiheita and assume he has some experience against Songn so he's not just making this number up, but in my experience Game & Watch does fine against Lucas.

I've played Luco Luco and did noticeably better against his Lucas than his Ness. Extra was also able to beat his Lucas without too much difficulty IIRC. Lucas relies a lot more on PK Fire than Ness does, which causes Oil Panic to be more of a factor. His normals are also less overwhelming as a whole than Ness's, and the only real thing that's scarier about his grab game is the range of his tether. Game & Watch has the disjoints and the tools to deal with Lucas.
 

EternalFlare

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Ok number one, bowsers kill throw is weaker than DKs do some damn research. Number two, DK's grab range is better than bowsers and as I said before has confirms (bowser has none) meaning DK will always land more consistent grabs. It doesn't matter that bowsers bair has more reward, a single back air from both characters offstage is usually a death sentence. Also dk's bair combos into itself. while bowsers does not.
And no bowser does NOT get more reward for guessing a get up option because they both have options like side smash or giant punch to end stocks, dk can make a side smash read just as easy sir.

Now, bowser DOES have a faster OOS option and thas about all you got right. Flames are mediocre at best and they and I really wouldn't trade our hand slaps for your flame.
Bowser's up air is stronger. Both combo from their throws. So he can kill earlier off of it. Try them both out yourself if you don't believe me. Then later when they are out of combo range Bowser can still kill with his command grab long before DK's grabs will start directly killing. So even if DK DID have the better combo kill throw, that'd only be relevant for a small percent range.

DK's pivot grab isn't as good as Bowser's. But you clearly don't even know what pivot grabs are so let me explain: In Smash 4/Brawl if you do a grab in the opposite direction while dashing it extends its range. Not only this but since you are moving away from the opponent you'll likely dodge whatever attack they are throwing out and immediately counter attack with the grab. This is much more noticeable with some characters than others. Bowser happens to have one of the best ones.

Since Bowser can kill earlier off grabs, he can punish on reaction ledge getup options better than DK can. Rolls and regular/getup attacks in particular.

DK's hand slap only covers the ground around him, Bowser's flame can be angled upwards or downwards. So it can be pretty decent for edge guarding sometimes covering basically every ledge getup option. That is to say, if they chose ledge jump, his handslap would not cover it but the flame would still catch it.

Edit:

According to this source, even in terms of regular grabs, Bowser has superior range:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1edThiOQ9DkH2LILb7a6Iz3f-w8XzkmzMQ-Mm53ReYFs/edit#gid=0
 
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Aaron1997

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This is late but nobody has posted Results for TSC

TSC 4 84 entrants (Category 1)

1. Esu:4zss:
2. Some :4greninja:
3. Abadango :4mewtwo::4metaknight::rosalina:
4. Umeki :4peach:
5. No:4fox:
5. Raito :4duckhunt:
7. Takaru :4ryu:
7. Kamemushi :4megaman::substitute:
9. Toriumi Yuko :substitute:
9. Kakera :4sheik:
9. Maguro :4cloud:
9. Haru3:4luigi:
13. Omunaoto :4falco:
13. Suru:4ryu:
13. Kare~:4falcon:
13. China:4falcon:
 
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EternalFlare

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This was brought up again by Anti:
https://twitter.com/Anti/status/771778943988985856?lang=en

Can you DI or SDI out of ZSS's up B reliably? Or do characters only fall out of it if she messes up the spacing beforehand somehow? Details would be appreciated if anyone knows for sure.

While I don't agree it means ZSS can't be top 10 it would certainly hurt her quite a bit if her best kill option by far became not only very unreliable but actually led to her getting killed instead.
 
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my_T

Smash Journeyman
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Jan 26, 2016
Messages
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Ok number one, bowsers kill throw is weaker than DKs do some damn research. Number two, DK's grab range is better than bowsers and as I said before has confirms (bowser has none) meaning DK will always land more consistent grabs. It doesn't matter that bowsers bair has more reward, a single back air from both characters offstage is usually a death sentence. Also dk's bair combos into itself. while bowsers does not.
And no bowser does NOT get more reward for guessing a get up option because they both have options like side smash or giant punch to end stocks, dk can make a side smash read just as easy sir.

Now, bowser DOES have a faster OOS option and thas about all you got right. Flames are mediocre at best and they and I really wouldn't trade our hand slaps for your flame.
Bowser has more grab range than DK. DK only has grab confirms at low percents off of dtilt. If you miss the Ding Dong window DK can struggle a bit to kill as his grab becomes much less threatening unless you get a back grab by the ledge at like 110%. Because his grab becomes less threatening it makes it harder to land all of his other kill moves. It's as if he reverts back to his early smash 4 days where he struggled to kill.

Bowser has better kill options. If Bowser misses his window he still has side B which starts killing slightly over a hundred, earlier with rage and platforms; This means you can never shield against bowser or you will get wrecked no matter what your percentage is. He doesn't really have to worry about stailing either since he can rack up a lot of damage off of side B (does 18%) or uthrow combos (into nair - 24%, fair - 11% to 13%, and bair - 19%). Bowsers uthrow/uair combo kills like 10% to 15% later; not sure how long the window lasts. It's also hard to camp out bowser on platforms because of side B; it's much easier to do this against DK.Your going to be so scared of getting grabbed by bowser that you're going to end up losing a stock to a stray hit like...name a move.

Also, to add to Bowsers vastly better shield, he has a 14 frame dash animation where as DK's is 16 frames. Not a huge difference but still noteworthy considering that bowser is also faster on the ground. DK is pretty much free if you cross up his shield.

As for disadvantage, Bowser at least has Flamethrower and side B to mixup his landing. DK has better air speed but you can just shield all of his landing options. Bowser has a much better vertical recovery. DK's is super linear. I think DK's disadvantage is slightly better.

They're both kinda terrible but I don't think either one is better than the other.
 

Fenny

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This was brought up again by Anti:
https://twitter.com/Anti/status/771778943988985856?lang=en

Can you DI or SDI out of ZSS's up B reliably? Or do characters only fall out of it if she messes up the spacing beforehand somehow? Details would be appreciated if anyone knows for sure.

While I don't agree it means ZSS can't be top 10 it would certainly hurt her quite a bit if her best kill option by far became not only very unreliable but actually led to her getting killed instead.
Well Ike popping out is because he in particular has an easier time SDI-ing out of things than others.
 

-Tornado-

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Well Ike popping out is because he in particular has an easier time SDI-ing out of things than others.
Okay, so I'm out of the loop here - is there actually code in the game that makes Ike have an easier time SDI-ing out of things, or are people just saying this? Just curious, because I haven't really seen proof of this yet.
 

L9999

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If 1111 Brawler was designed the way he is on purpose, I'm not exactly sure what the balance team was thinking with this character. Helicopter Kick/Piston Punch and Flip Jump should have been part of it's default move set. I feel confident in saying that 1111 Brawler is probably the second worst character in the game with sword fighter being dead bottom. I really don't know what they were thinking with these characters. At least Gunner isn't terrible like the other two though. Not being allowed in online matchmaking was already a big nail in the coffin considering that's how most people play.
Late to the talk, but it is obvious the balance team didn't test this characters. With 12 specials to balance and resizing they likely took the safe route and ban them from online. But if they were going to patch the game (which they did and they patched the Miis) why not allowing them in online and nerfing the broken strategies? But no, if someone wants to play Miis they have to wait centuries in Smashladder for a match. And some of the custom specials are so terrible they make you grateful they weren't the default. Example, Gunner would be way worse with Stealth Burst (Din's Fire copy) than Flame Pillar (if you watch Flama play you know this is key to Mii Gunner play).

Okay, so I'm out of the loop here - is there actually code in the game that makes Ike have an easier time SDI-ing out of things, or are people just saying this? Just curious, because I haven't really seen proof of this yet.
I think it is a matter of attributes (weight, fall speed, gravity, etc).
 
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Fenny

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Okay, so I'm out of the loop here - is there actually code in the game that makes Ike have an easier time SDI-ing out of things, or are people just saying this? Just curious, because I haven't really seen proof of this yet.
the guy who did it has crazy SDI skills tbf

Hikaru did it with DK too on M2's Usmash
 
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EternalFlare

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The issue with Mr. R is that he overextends a LOT and tends to leave so many openings that his survivability is extremely low.
You'll see multiple attempts at ledge jump reads with usmash, many autopilot combo attempts out of throws when the opponent is nowhere near the position he wants them to be, and a lot of rolls that leave him susceptible to be hard punished by rage moves.
VoiD focuses a bit too much on combo extensions while only using needles for combos and almost never in neutral, making him slightly weaker vs characters Sheik normally beats due to needle camping(G&W, Kirby, Luigi etc) and characters that can threaten Sheik during her PP combos(Ryu, Pika, Luigi).
Mr. R dies due to whiffed bouncing fish attempts and having his rolls read. VoiD dies to bad DI on combos and failing to space the opponent out then getting hit with a heavy attack.
But these openings should, ideally, never be there if you're playing this character.

Sheik isn't Diddy/Cloud. Unless you already know exactly where she will go beforehand, edgeguarding will not work.
She isn't Ryu. You can't run from her all game unless you're Mewtwo, because no other character can deal with needles well enough to risk not approaching.
She isn't Rosa. There's no single thing to get rid of in order to exploit her bad disadvantage and lack of "get off me" options.
This character's kit was made so flawlessly that if the Sheik player chooses to do so, you cannot get in on or punish this character.


So, that being said, lets talk about ZeRo's Sheik.
Good postpatch games to look at:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTfxqrDenfE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4PDii7qPn1k
Good prepatch game to look at in order to understand what makes his Sheik so potent:
https://youtu.be/yvaVqGn30Jw?t=2m13s
One thing you'll notice is that his playstyle is very boring on the surface. Never overcommits to anything. Abuses needles/fair/grab and the occasional nair a lot while making it almost impossible to get in on him.
Which is exactly what I spoke about before. ZeRo's playstyle was the absolute best for Sheik before the patch because he abused her most ridiculous options to the extremes.

He has THE BEST fair spacing, needle usage, and ability to get grabs out of any Sheik I've ever seen. Not only that, but getting off the ledge against him is an absolute nightmare.
So you gave the guy with the best neutral(at the time) and ledge traps in all of competitive Smash 4 a character that:
-grabbed and kill you at 120
-ledge trapped you better than any other
-reset to neutral on command
-left 0 openings
-had a better neutral than everyone else
After Sheik's inevitable nerfs, ZeRo's playstyle took a huge blow and now he can't really kill anymore.
If rage didn't exist I'm sure he would never be playing Diddy and still be the best Sheik player in the world. However, he more than anyone is a person that absolutely cannot kill a character like Mario or DK before 150 because the guy's playstyle doesn't allow him to take risks.
He's lost so much confidence after the break and nerfs and gets visibly tilted when he can't kill someone or dies super early.
Before he would be fine with winning neutral 100 times then eventually killing you because he would never make mistakes that allowed you to abuse 170% of rage.
But nowadays he'll get you to 150, panic, then hand you an opening on a silver platter so you can kill him at 80.
Those fancy kill setups like Down Throw>Bouncing Fish at the edge or Jab2>Tipper Dtilt>Uair are absolutely necessary for the character killing reliably below 140, and he never really does them.

But it's not all bad news. As you may have noticed, ZeRo still makes Sheik look like a broken character vs characters with bad mobility and/or bad recoveries. I hope he continues to use her over Diddy vs characters like Luigi, Mario, Roy, Fox, and Cloud. He's probably still the best in the world at these MUs.
Is jab - downtilt a true combo for Sheik? If it is I can definitely see jab-tippered downtilt being an amazing kill confirm for Sheik. Especially since it will even work at percentages where ftilt will have long stopped working as a 50/50 (due to them being knocked too far back).

After all Sheik's killing issues aren't just at lower percents. Once the opponent is at 140+ nearly everything she has will cease to combo or cause 50/50s. But tippered downtilt will still work easily.

But if it's not a true combo, it will probably work once or twice versus opponents that don't expect it, after that they'll probably start buffering jump or up B and get out of it.
 
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Das Koopa

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stuff being added this weekend to the September-December iteration

-TSC4 (Japan)
-Avalon U-V (Netherlands)
-Collision XIV (Tristate)
-First Attack 2016 (Puerto Rico)
-Breakout 5 (Midwest)
-Show Me Your Moves 17 (Midwest)

maybe:
-Albuquerque Smash Fiesta 3 (Southwest)

by the way Salem is up 2-1 on ZeRo at Collision at the moment
 

Nidtendofreak

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Okay, so I'm out of the loop here - is there actually code in the game that makes Ike have an easier time SDI-ing out of things, or are people just saying this? Just curious, because I haven't really seen proof of this yet.
From what I saw on Twitter, its due to Ike being the same height as ZSS with the Ike DIing inwards. It will make the 2nd last hit miss, in which case the final hit always whiffs. Basically Ike is naturally, frequently able to avoid the last hit of boost kick if what they said is correct. Easy to forget in the heat of the moment, and its not guaranteed as it also depends on where Ike and ZSS were in relation to each other, but it can happen quite often.

As for the crazy Japanese SDI/Ike attributes stuff: apparently the Japanese guy was only able to get some of his SDI stuff to work with DK as well for the characters he tested. So there is such a thing as just kinda, naturally having just the right combo of attributes so that SDI works better than it should for your frame if you can SDI to an insane amount. Ike is apparently one of them.
 
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Luco

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I don't pretend to know a lot about Lucas (he's probably one of the characters I'm worst with) but I really don't think he has a solid advantage over Game & Watch. I respect Taiheita and assume he has some experience against Songn so he's not just making this number up, but in my experience Game & Watch does fine against Lucas.

I've played Luco Luco and did noticeably better against his Lucas than his Ness. Extra was also able to beat his Lucas without too much difficulty IIRC. Lucas relies a lot more on PK Fire than Ness does, which causes Oil Panic to be more of a factor. His normals are also less overwhelming as a whole than Ness's, and the only real thing that's scarier about his grab game is the range of his tether. Game & Watch has the disjoints and the tools to deal with Lucas.
Extra's still a little bit better than me as a player (his ability to condition is actually borked) but I agree with you, Lucas has to play a bigger guessing game in this MU in neutral than vs most other characters and his disjoints are less powerful. PK Fire also has the risk of charging bucket which hinders him more.

I might not have all the experience with this character than I need to (halp) vs Taiheta and Songn but I dunno if I can see this MU being very skewed in our favour at all.

Also, quick sidenote but although some of the mii customs moves are awful, gunner's grenades neutral B is broken, still one of the best projectiles in the game by a LONG margin even after its nerf (pre-patch it burst on enemy attacks as well as its current breaking on shields/hurtboxes and after a time limit) and I personally don't think gunner mains should use any other neutral-b given the option. :p
 
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Mr. Johan

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but why do you (suddenly) seem to have a very high opinion of Zard anyway Johan? Just wondering.
Having a Charizard in this state that's honestly as good if not better than Sharpy tends to influence.

Latest example, Chuck Nasty just beat MJG :4villager: :4tlink: 3-1 in Kansas tonight. First game was a two stock that took less than a minute.
 
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TheGoodGuava

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Also, to add to Bowsers vastly better shield, he has a 14 frame dash animation where as DK's is 16 frames. Not a huge difference but still noteworthy considering that bowser is also faster on the ground. DK is pretty much free if you cross up his shield..
what are you talking about free? DK bair is disgusting and an amazing oos option
 

Illusion.

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stuff being added this weekend to the September-December iteration

-TSC4 (Japan)
-Avalon U-V (Netherlands)
-Collision XIV (Tristate)
-First Attack 2016 (Puerto Rico)
-Breakout 5 (Midwest)
-Show Me Your Moves 17 (Midwest)

maybe:
-Albuquerque Smash Fiesta 3 (Southwest)
What about San Japan (121 entrants) that's continuing tomorrow in San Antonio?
 

Kofu

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Extra's still a little bit better than me as a player (his ability to condition is actually borked) but I agree with you, Lucas has to play a bigger guessing game in this MU in neutral than vs most other characters and his disjoints are less powerful. PK Fire also has the risk of charging bucket which hinders him more.

I might not have all the experience with this character than I need to (halp) vs Taiheta and Songn but I dunno if I can see this MU being very skewed in our favour at all.

Also, quick sidenote but although some of the mii customs moves are awful, gunner's grenades neutral B is broken, still one of the best projectiles in the game by a LONG margin even after its nerf (pre-patch it burst on enemy attacks as well as its current breaking on shields/hurtboxes and after a time limit) and I personally don't think gunner mains should use any other neutral-b given the option. :p
Yeah Extra just seems like a really, really smart player (much like Regi, I have no idea how the two of them do so well).

Gunner's other neutral B moves are Charge Blast and Laser Blaze. Charge Blast is basically Charge Shot but weaker (it's the only other charge special that doesn't work in the air) and Laser Blaze works like Fox's Blaster only with a very slight pushback effect. I'd personally take Grenade Launch all the time but I could see situations where Charge Blast would be useful.

Grenade Launch can also be reversed multiple times during the charge which is really fun to mess with.
 
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