Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Shady Shaymin]

Is possibly overrated

yes lol

 

[Das Koopa]

update to my personal player ranking

#1: TSM | ZeRo
#2: C9 | Ally
#3: Mr. R (+6)
#4: NRG | Nairo
#5: RNG | Dabuz (-2)
#6: LG | Abadango
#7: Komorikiri (+4)
#8: DTN | Kamemushi (-3)
#9: eLevate | Larry Lurr (-2)
#10: IMT | ANTi (+6)
#11: CLG | VoiD (-2)
#12: KEN
#13: SF | MKLeo
#14: CT MVG | Salem (+4)
#15: DNL | Marss (+4)
#16: Zinoto
#17: FOX MVG | Mew2King (-2)
#18: Rich Brown (+2)
#19: SS | Mr. E (+1)
#20: DMG | Tweek (NEW)

Removed Ranai due to inactivity. Including him just induces the same problem as including Hax or PPMD on Melee lists.

 

[Ethan7]

After TBH6 I can believe that Sonic is Top 5 at minimum. Komo put on an incredible display in Top 8 using him and put up an admirable fight against ANTi and ZeRo.

I think Komo's deserves attention now. This is the best I've seen Cloud do at a super-major so far, with Komorikiri and Tweek placing 3rd and 13th, respectively.

Also, Cloud is currently ranked 1st on Das Koopa's point system. What are your guys' thoughts?

 

[ShadowGuy1]

update to my personal player ranking

#1: TSM | ZeRo
#2: C9 | Ally
#3: Mr. R (+6)
#4: NRG | Nairo
#5: RNG | Dabuz (-2)
#6: LG | Abadango
#7: Komorikiri (+4)
#8: DTN | Kamemushi (-3)
#9: eLevate | Larry Lurr (-2)
#10: IMT | ANTi (+6)
#11: CLG | VoiD (-2)
#12: KEN
#13: SF | MKLeo
#14: CT MVG | Salem (+4)
#15: DNL | Marss (+4)
#16: Zinoto
#17: FOX MVG | Mew2King (-2)
#18: Rich Brown (+2)
#19: SS | Mr. E (+1)
#20: DMG | Tweek (NEW)

Removed Ranai due to inactivity. Including him just induces the same problem as including Hax or PPMD on Melee lists.

I would like to ask about Mr.R's huge increase. Is it because of his better placings or is it because he is using more characters to counter his demons?

 

[Das Koopa]

I feel like it's just a combination of factors. He narrowly lost to Aba and lost to Komo, but he put up a very good fight in either circumstances and took down 2 demons of his (Nairo and Dabuz) while mostly maintaining an impeccable record throughout the year. His worst tourney was EVO.

I think he, Nairo, and Dabuz (+Ally) are in some order for the top 5 (with ZeRo on top) but I gave Mr. R the edge for his outstanding performance.

Oh, and Komo is legit amazing. 2 sets on VoiD, a set on Nairo, a set on Ally, finally conquered his Mr. R demon, etc. He's quickly becoming one of the best players. I hope he gets sponsored so he'll feel inclined to attend more. Best Sonic/Cloud performance at a Supermajor ever and he really stepped up for Japan where Kameme and Aba failed.

 

[TDK]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Py-AoFv6xVA

Wii Fit Trainer has a footstool combo that leads into either death or tons of damage.

 

[FamilyTeam]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Py-AoFv6xVA

I've watched that. I just went
"Oh, boy, I always had an interest in WFT, maybe this is the spark that's gonna make me play her!"
Eh... that's not it. Looks too complicated and specific.

 

[L9999]

Yey, another overly complicated footstool combo no human being will pull off in a major. Seriously, I don't even care anymore.

 

[TDK]

update to my personal player ranking

#1: TSM | ZeRo
#2: C9 | Ally
#3: Mr. R (+6)
#4: NRG | Nairo
#5: RNG | Dabuz (-2)
#6: LG | Abadango
#7: Komorikiri (+4)
#8: DTN | Kamemushi (-3)
#9: eLevate | Larry Lurr (-2)
#10: IMT | ANTi (+6)
#11: CLG | VoiD (-2)
#12: KEN
#13: SF | MKLeo
#14: CT MVG | Salem (+4)
#15: DNL | Marss (+4)
#16: Zinoto
#17: FOX MVG | Mew2King (-2)
#18: Rich Brown (+2)
#19: SS | Mr. E (+1)
#20: DMG | Tweek (NEW)

Removed Ranai due to inactivity. Including him just induces the same problem as including Hax or PPMD on Melee lists.

I'm sorry, but I can't see Nairo as better than Dabuz. While Nairo can be more explosive, Dabuz is better overall as a more consistent person, whereas Nairo has dropped sets to the likes of Mr. II or DireOnFire and oftentimes has failed to make top 8 entirely. Additionally, his run as Super Smash Con is unfortunately not the best example as most of his personal demons, as well as every single decent diddy at the event, were in losers and thus out of the picture for Nairo, giving him a fairly easy bracket full of people he can run through like Dabuz, VoiD, and other people he has had extremely positive records against. He shows no sign of actually improving on his faults or improving his matchups, and usually plays the game the same way every time, which has made him actually lose to certain players that he'd otherwise beat like Komorikiri simply because they adapted to his linear style.

Just my thoughts, feel free to disagree.

 

[FamilyTeam]

Yey, another overly complicated footstool combo no human being will pull off in a major. Seriously, I don't even care anymore.

I'll go so far as to say some of these look as realistic as the 60-70% combos you do on people on For Glory who don't know how to DI and have too poor reaction time to airdodge or jump out of stuff that's not even a 50/50.
Only a handful of footstool combos seem really viable, and they're the few ones we actually see in tournament.

 

[Gunla]

Oh, and Komo is legit amazing. 2 sets on VoiD, a set on Nairo, a set on Ally, finally conquered his Mr. R demon, etc. He's quickly becoming one of the best players. I hope he gets sponsored so he'll feel inclined to attend more. Best Sonic/Cloud performance at a Supermajor ever and he really stepped up for Japan where Kameme and Aba failed.

This was definitely a huge tournament for him. He unfortunately fell a bit short at EVO and Genesis with admittably respectable losses but he had an incredible run here. Reminded me a bit of his incredible performances in Japan as of late with how on-point he was today.

The eSports Runner Power Rankings haven't been updated since May, so they're a bit outdated, but I'd say that Kame/Komo are 1/2 in some order whenever they do get an update. I do hope to see Komo get picked up by an org soon as it'd be truly fantastic.

 

[Rizen]

Yey, another overly complicated footstool combo no human being will pull off in a major. Seriously, I don't even care anymore.

IDK. It starts with Nair, which WFT often uses to start combos so some WFTs might integrate it into their game. We probably won't see it in a major because we won't see WFT in a major often but some people are really good.

I wish I could remember the name of the player who did well with her a while back. Can someone help me out?
edit, it's John Numbers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ir0OSTbZWQ0

 

[Y2Kay]

IDK. It starts with Nair, which WFT often uses to start combos so some WFTs might integrate it into their game. We probably won't see it in a major because we won't see WFT in a major often but some people are really good.

I wish I could remember the name of the player who did well with her a while back. Can someone help me out?

Either John Numbers or RIN

 

[Radical Larry]

Is possibly overrated

What people are lacking against Bayonetta are the following:
-DI (Still seeing people get killed by Bayonetta. What happened to DI'ing Down and Away?)
-Punishing Afterburner Kick when she hits the stage. (This RARELY happens AFAIK)
-Punishing Afterburner Kick when it ends. (This also somewhat rarely happens AFAIK)
-Baiting Witch Time to be used often.
-Grabbing Bayonetta when she attempts Witch Time and whiffs.
-(I'm explaining this after I wake up.)

 

[Rizen]

Either John Numbers or RIN

Thanks, I think it was Numbers. Watching him makes me think the footstool might see some use.

 

[verbatim]

update to my personal player ranking

#1: TSM | ZeRo
#2: C9 | Ally
#3: Mr. R (+6)
#4: NRG | Nairo
#5: RNG | Dabuz (-2)
#6: LG | Abadango
#7: Komorikiri (+4)
#8: DTN | Kamemushi (-3)
#9: eLevate | Larry Lurr (-2)
#10: IMT | ANTi (+6)
#11: CLG | VoiD (-2)
#12: KEN
#13: SF | MKLeo
#14: CT MVG | Salem (+4)
#15: DNL | Marss (+4)
#16: Zinoto
#17: FOX MVG | Mew2King (-2)
#18: Rich Brown (+2)
#19: SS | Mr. E (+1)
#20: DMG | Tweek (NEW)

Removed Ranai due to inactivity. Including him just induces the same problem as including Hax or PPMD on Melee lists.

Is this statistical in nature or more opinion based?

 

[ぱみゅ]

tbf, that WFT setup looks about as practical as Mewtwo's footstool disable thingy, possibly slightly better considering Nair is actually one of her best moves.

 

[Das Koopa]

Is this statistical in nature or more opinion based?

Ultimately it's opinion based but there's a statistical basis in some of the decisions. ANTi would be top 5 if you looked at CEO and TBH6 alone, but he's above and beyond the most inconsistent top player in the world so I'm being reserved.

I'm sorry, but I can't see Nairo as better than Dabuz. While Nairo can be more explosive, Dabuz is better overall as a more consistent person, whereas Nairo has dropped sets to the likes of Mr. II or DireOnFire and oftentimes has failed to make top 8 entirely. Additionally, his run as Super Smash Con is unfortunately not the best example as most of his personal demons, as well as every single decent diddy at the event, were in losers and thus out of the picture for Nairo, giving him a fairly easy bracket full of people he can run through like Dabuz, VoiD, and other people he has had extremely positive records against. He shows no sign of actually improving on his faults or improving his matchups, and usually plays the game the same way every time, which has made him actually lose to certain players that he'd otherwise beat like Komorikiri simply because they adapted to his linear style.

Just my thoughts, feel free to disagree.

I think you make a good point. My moving Dabuz lower was more about me thinking of dropping him a few spots because he struggles a lot.

However, I can't count his losses with Dire and II against him too much. II was easily his worst ever loss, and he won the same tournament he lost to Dire in.

His big roadblock in my opinion is his inability to beat ZeRo.

 

[Deleted member]

Something I figured out in Buster Dthrow labbing hell. I can't wait to try this more often. Oh and DK held away & still couldn't act. pic.twitter.com/eLJjPcUB5n

— Mace (the spray) (@decentlymace) October 9, 2016

Masonomace found this out, Buster Art buffer deactivated down throw into Air Slash. You're able to delay the second hit of AS so you're able to drift back to the ledge safely. I'd imagine this would be pretty devastating as a way to punish standard ledge getup.

 

[Luco]

Something I figured out in Buster Dthrow labbing hell. I can't wait to try this more often. Oh and DK held away & still couldn't act. pic.twitter.com/eLJjPcUB5n

— Mace (the spray) (@decentlymace) October 9, 2016

Masonomace found this out, Buster Art buffer deactivated down throw into Air Slash. You're able to delay the second hit of AS so you're able to drift back to the ledge safely. I'd imagine this would be pretty devastating as a way to punish standard ledge getup.

I agree but... Doesn't Shulk's Usmash cover ledge-getup really well anyway? :O

EDIT: Oh and Waveguider is a stickler for footstool stuff, I can bet you he'll be pulling this out at a future tournament. Also he's been using more WFT again lately, so that's cool. <3

 

[Deleted member]

I agree but... Doesn't Shulk's Usmash cover ledge-getup really well anyway? :O

Correct! It covers all ledge getup options as well if based on reacting to which one. You can even get people with just the second hit for mindgames. In a set I've seen somebody use MONADACUS on their opponent doing neutral getup while they halfway across the stage but that itself is difficult to perform.

The Buster deactivation down throw is still neat nonetheless though, even if usmash is still really good at the ledge.

 

[NairWizard]

I also think it's time that we stop calling ESAM a "top player," because he hasn't been in a long time.

He's a respectable high-level player, of many hundreds out there.

 

[Masonomace]

To add, arts being active is a big sign waved over Shulk's head to the opponent saying, "Hey look! I'm in this art therefore I'll probably do what you'd expect!".

Being in Buster & covering ledge options wouldn't be threatening to the opponent getting up, because they'll think "It's Buster, that never kills". Then bam, buffer deactivate into delivered.

 

[Das Koopa]

I also think it's time that we stop calling ESAM a "top player," because he hasn't been in a long time.

He's a respectable high-level player, of many hundreds out there.

I would put ESAM in the 40-50 range, probably. Maybe 30-40? It feels like too many players have notable set wins on other top players while ESAM is stuck to just being one of Florida's better players.

 

[Vyrnx]

Don't know if I'd group esam with, "several hundred," other high level players. He can still get really good results, like second at Shine, and his results He has great skill as a player and we can see that in how he's pushed Pika especially lately with bidou, camping, jablocks, and he's really worked on uthrow thunder. He's still easily top fifty by player skill, but I agree he's in a different tier from the top players.

 

[FeelMeUp]

ESAM's just a different type of top player.
His issue is more player matchups, being MUCH worse in 2 stock than 3, and trying to do the whole "exert your will" thing with a character that can't.
I would bet against him 100% of the time if he had to play, say....Zenyou, ZeRo, or Larry but wouldn't necessarily be surprised if he pulled out a set win against someone like Nairo or Dabuz.

 

[NairWizard]

Pikachu is also just a really bad character who is fully capable of losing almost any matchup in the game, even in the hands of an amazing player.

So: "Is it ESAM or is it Pikachu?"

Answer: It's both.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Pikachu is also just a really bad character who is fully capable of losing almost any matchup in the game, even in the hands of an amazing player.

So: "Is it ESAM or is it Pikachu?"

Answer: It's both.

Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.
Sure....thing, man.
Sure thing.
Pikachu's good. No idea what you're talking about.

 

[NairWizard]

*rare solid burst rant*

Pikachu being good is actually the worst "meme" of them all and needs to perish harder than all of the other memes that "need to die."

I've probably played more sets with Pikachu than I have with the rest of the cast combined, having mained the character since release; I've tried as hard as I could, and I am fully confident in saying, nope, Pikachu isn't good. There are definitely many players who are better than I am (ESAM included), but I understand this game well enough to back up that claim without attributing it to personal bias.

I have hoped desperately that ESAM or Captain L or some other player would show the true power of Pikachu using perfect pivot or some other neutral option, but without a kill confirm of some kind it just isn't happening.

Pikachu is almost game-worst, at least bottom 5/10, at KO'ing opponents that he can't easily edgeguard (and many characters who were previously edgeguardable are getting better and better at mixing up their recoveries, like Diddy and Falcon). He doesn't have a single killing aerial, and his aerial mobility is mediocre. Unlike Diddy and Sheik, he doesn't have convenient setups into burst/ranged kill options (no bouncing fish, no banana, what now?).

His smashes pack power but he's so light that one wrong read and you can die.

His grounded range is so mediocre outside of d-tilt and f-smash that you can literally just shield against him at kill percents and avoid losing that way. He can't force you out of shield easily at all; he has to do the up-throw -> thunder bs stuff, but he doesn't have good options out of dash or any good poke tools to otherwise contend. d-tilt doesn't quite serve the purpose and it has bad followups out of it, unless your opponent DIs poorly. He's not like Fox who traps you in a vortex of quick options. Pikachu's frame data is just a bit too poor for that.

After low %s his combo game is seriously let down by a combination of moves that don't do enough damage and also lack of reach, further hindered because of his aerial mobility.

Pikachu is good at avoiding hitboxes in neutral and getting out of strings.

But you know what, if you can't kill your opponent or bridge the gap between combo and kill % easily, then it doesn't matter if you do win neutral a lot or don't take much damage trying to land. Especially if you're light.

Almost every "good" matchup in the game that Pikachu was once thought to win has turned out to be closer to even, if not even or out of Pikachu's favor (ZSS, Rosalina, etc.). This even applies to many mid and low-tiers like Little Mac.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Top half of the cast is still a good character.
Seems like an exaggerated case of "I play this character a lot and feel pessimistic about everything he's capable of"

 

[~ Gheb ~]

update to my personal player ranking

#1: TSM | ZeRo
#2: C9 | Ally
#3: Mr. R (+6)
#4: NRG | Nairo
#5: RNG | Dabuz (-2)
#6: LG | Abadango
#7: Komorikiri (+4)
#8: DTN | Kamemushi (-3)
#9: eLevate | Larry Lurr (-2)
#10: IMT | ANTi (+6)
#11: CLG | VoiD (-2)
#12: KEN
#13: SF | MKLeo
#14: CT MVG | Salem (+4)
#15: DNL | Marss (+4)
#16: Zinoto
#17: FOX MVG | Mew2King (-2)
#18: Rich Brown (+2)
#19: SS | Mr. E (+1)
#20: DMG | Tweek (NEW)

Removed Ranai due to inactivity. Including him just induces the same problem as including Hax or PPMD on Melee lists.

... why do I feel like people are always forgetting about Fatality? Hasn't the dude placed like 9th or 13th [or higher] at just about every major tournament recently? Basically since Genesis in the beginning of the year he always finds his way up there through losers bracket and collects some impressive wins on the way. Added up his results / wins are possibly better than Tweek's or Mr E's.

 

[NairWizard]

It's rather, "I play this character a lot and I can see how the numbers play out in practice."

I know he has some good tools, but I don't see how those tools mathematically translate into match wins.

I'd put Pikachu around #25-30.

Is that a "bad" character? Maybe not. Definitely not the kind of character that places top8 consistently though.

 

[Jaabir]

Luigi is basically screwed against characters like villager toon link or rob
Mains secondaries pockets

 

[The-Technique]

I'm sorry, but I can't see Nairo as better than Dabuz. While Nairo can be more explosive, Dabuz is better overall as a more consistent person, whereas Nairo has dropped sets to the likes of Mr. II or DireOnFire and oftentimes has failed to make top 8 entirely. Additionally, his run as Super Smash Con is unfortunately not the best example as most of his personal demons, as well as every single decent diddy at the event, were in losers and thus out of the picture for Nairo, giving him a fairly easy bracket full of people he can run through like Dabuz, VoiD, and other people he has had extremely positive records against. He shows no sign of actually improving on his faults or improving his matchups, and usually plays the game the same way every time, which has made him actually lose to certain players that he'd otherwise beat like Komorikiri simply because they adapted to his linear style.

Just my thoughts, feel free to disagree.

Nairo only failed to make top 8 in 4 out of the 25 tournaments he attended this year.
The majority of his placings were 1st, with a handful of them being top 8.

 

[Yonder]

Mains secondaries pockets

Did...this part of your post have anything to pertain to competitive impressions at all? I don't see the relevance of listing your mains here in this thread.

Luigi is basically screwed against characters like villager toon link or rob

Yes, I feel Luigi loses to all these characters too, although a bit more depth as to why would be helpful. All of these characters have superior range, keep away, recoveries (could argue ROB's is too gimpable though to be good) and just really don't have to approach. Luigi is a character that i feel most comfortable around boxing range or mid range where fireballs can control the neutral more effectively. I think this is a reason why Luigi does well against Fox or Mario, for example. Both can't play keep away , and Fox himself is stuffed by fireball while recovering horizontally, while prone to a tornado spike while fire fox is activated. I'm pretty sure Luigi cyclone will override it no problem too so you don't have to be cautious about the flames.

 

[Routa]

Did...this part of your post have anything to pertain to competitive impressions at all? I don't see the relevance of listing your mains here in this thread.

I presume that it was meant to be in his "signature".

Even tho Luigi does have hard time approaching zoners he can even out the % very quickly due to many of the zoners being combo food. This does balance out his "poor" neutral game. Luigi relies heavily on PS and shielding in general against strong Zoners. Some Zoners are more problematic due to their projectiles which can deal heavy shield damage. For example shielding against Gunner with Bomb Drop is very dangerous due to its heavy shield damage and ability to break shields very easily. Best way to combat this is to SH AD. I personally cannot take people seriously who say that Luigi cannot approach and looses heavily against Zoners.

 

[Fenny]

Is possibly overrated

Y E S
E
P

She's stupid good, that's for sure. But Kamemushi, Nairo and Buzby collectively put on display Bayo's weaknesses which people seem to love ignoring

Kamemushi had basically flawless SDI up until his losers bracket game 5 match with Salem where Salem unscrewed Mega Man like broken hardware. Before that, he was doing an amazing job minimising Bayo's crazy punish potential by DI-ing down and away and mixing up his DI as Salem does (literally what I tell everyone who I win against to do against her, it's virtually a get out of jail card). Nairo and Dabuz hard punished her for landing wrong and every mistake she made.

But the one thing all of them did?

Kept her our of range.

Dabuz made the Bayo MU look free for Rosa, once Nairo started abusing keep-away Nairs with his insane punishes he ran away with the set, and Kamemushi taking advantage of MM's excellent projectile game and capatalising her openings with Bair was what won him two of those matches. I say it over and over again - keep her out and you'll most likely win, since she has no significant disjoints to speak of.

 

[DunnoBro]

DI Down/away only works consistently as a fast faller. At lower percents you get out, at higher/rage you're screwed no matter what. If a floaty tried di/down away at similar percents they'd get killed for it.

Overall, Salem got outplayed by players better than him who learned the MU. No character, universally considered broken, overtuned, undertuned, hidden potential, etc went undefeated. And in fact, bayo's overall success is higher post-patch.

It's far too soon to say if she's overrated or not yet. Especially with such little representation.

Also, not sure why luigi suddenly came back up but his reward and potency is too high to say zoners just shut him down. Powershield, rolls, and SHAD are far too powerful options in this game for zoning to be the a singular win condition.

(As an aside, in my experience it seems easier to PS with luigi due to how much he slides with his shield... Or maybe that's just luigi players knowing what they need to do)

 

[Vyrnx]

We only briefly talked about how absurdly well ZeRo played yesterday. Besides running through everyone including Dabuz and Komo, his adaptation was incredible against ANTi. His first set against him, I was beginning to think the MU might be bad considering how Mario can cover Diddy's disadvantage well and deal with banana. We see the same thing with Ally, catching almost every monkey flip and either killing Diddy or doing big damage. First set he also always panic air dodged during Anti's utilt strings and took twice as much damage as he should have, and air dodged or monkey flipped out of uair combos and got spiked.

The second set ZeRo completely changed the way he played. He used no banana, played much better in disadvantage with conservative monkey flips, dominated neutral (without banana)... He trapped ANTi on or against the ledge and covered all of his rolls and other options, and really showcased how efficient Diddy is at killing.

People talked about how ANTi played poorly... He wasn't ready for such a drastic change in ZeRo's playstyle. ZeRo literally changed everything he was doing and made GF almost boring with how much of a shutout it was. ZeRo looked completely absurd and I can't imagine many players beating him if he plays like that.

 

[DunnoBro]

Overall I thought WF ZeRo was playing reaally linearly. He never mixed up anything. Never baited AD after uthrow, always recovered high or MF'd (sometimes barreled) back to neutral. He seemed anxious and blind as if he were back in pools, I don't think he respected ANTi at all.

ZeRo lost a looot by refusing to grab the ledge, despite mario's only decent ledge coverage but superb recovery coverage. I actually stopped watching after WF cause I just assumed "Well, ANTi's got this"