Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Das Koopa]

I stand by Kie being the MVP. Absolutely insane.

 

[Minordeth]

My God. Unbelievable rally and mental pressure from Kie.

 

[ARISTOS]

~ Gheb ~ must be feeling so smug rn

 

[EternalFlare]

Let me tell you guys a little bit about Kie.

He was the best Brawl Peach but was never given any credit as I don't believe he ever travelled stateside. But he would regularly place high in Japan towards the end of Brawl's life. He'd take sets off some of the best Japanese MKs even and even won a few majors outright there iirc.

In other words Kie was somehow winning largely considered, unwinnable matchups at the very highest levels of play with a supposed mid tier character in a game where mid tier might as well have been bottom tier.

If you ask me, I'm surprised it's taken this long for a breakout performance from him in Smash 4. It was only a matter of time.

Peach has been criminally underrated in both Brawl and S4 (Probably Melee as well tbh), she can play neutral like no other character.

 

[TDK]

The Big House 6 Crews:

1st: Japan ( Kie Komorikiri Kamemushi Abadango Shogun )
2nd: Midwest ( Ally Zinoto Ned Rayquaza Ryuga )
3rd: East Coast ( ANTi Nairo Salem Tweek Marss )
Also 3rd: West Coast ( VoiD Larry Lurr ZeRo Rich Brown NAKAT )

Overall MVP: Kie

If Kie doesn't make at least top 16 I'll be shocked.

 

[meticulousboy]

Greninja beats Peach solidly. She has poor mobility in comparison, and has really rough time with shurikens as well. Greninja really rips her a new one in advantage state, her frame is perfect for Greninja combos.

That list is a little on the conservative side if you ask me.

True. Though she does love fast fallers. Those are fighters that fall (get it?) victim to her float shenanigans.

 

[FamilyTeam]

Here's a possibly better matchup chart for Peach. Little Mac is still her best matchup, it seems.View attachment 118631

She doesn't seem to struggle with some top tiers. Heck. She even bodies the high tiers. The first one I posted seemed wrong to me when Yoshi was considered even for Peach. But I like this one. Please share your thoughts. How would Peach rise in the meta now?

Even with Marcina? Hm...
I asked a few people around and by that I mean Dark.Pch and a few others and basically he told me that she lost this matchup a bit and that was something a lot of people seemed to say.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Peach might love fastfallers but Greninja loves floaties just as much. Against Peach nair footstool combos start working at 0 and is incredibly safe option against an aerial Peach. Fair startup is too slow to challenge it while nair and bair don't have enough range. Greninja's own fair in terms of frame data is nearly identical but its much lower landing lag and longer range makes it a better poke tool. Shurikans win him the ranged game forcing Peach to approach and Hydro Pump can stuff most attempts at an aerial approach. Shes left being forced to play the ground game which she gets dominated in by Greninja's disjoints, better grounded combo starters, and better mobility.

As for the Marcina vs Peach matchup, I've only played it a handful of times but I do prefer using Lucina in it. Float is annoying to space around and Lucinas up tilt is an amazing anti air

 

[bc1910]

Have we ever seen Greninja vs Peach at top level? Genuinely asking because nothing comes to mind.

Greninja beats Peach solidly. She has poor mobility in comparison, and has really rough time with shurikens as well. Greninja really rips her a new one in advantage state, her frame is perfect for Greninja combos.

That list is a little on the conservative side if you ask me.

I've never shared this opinion even though it's a common one among Greninja mains.

Peach can float in Greninja's blind spot and harass him with Dair, about which he can do virtually nothing. Fair is too slow and will generally hit too high if Peach is positioned right because of Greninja's high short hop. If Greninja takes his time and positions Fair correctly, Peach has plenty of time to drop down and shield (or even just float back) because again this takes time.

Peach abuses Greninja's blindspot better than anyone else in the cast. She often forces him to run back and throw shurikens, which again she can float through with good reactions. You can Hydro Pump her float, but again this is really slow to execute. Peach CAN approach from the air. I think Greninja is good at delaying her approach but he cannot (almost) stop it altogether like with Luigi, Ganon or D3.

Fair is brutal and operates in the exact range of Greninja's short hops. It is one of the only aerials in the game to consistently trade positively with Greninja's Fair (even Mewtwo's doesn't do that except at high percents, where his Fair is still outdamaged but will kill earlier) leaving his usual walling strats pretty sketchy.

The strengths you've mentioned for Greninja are valid so I won't cover them in detail, but Peach has enough going for her to bring this MU to 50:50.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

The anti-Peach and the anti-Corrin meta are extremely underdeveloped outside of Japan, that's why these 'upsets' keep happening. Ain't much you can do when you're not prepared for a Peach of that level.

He was the best Brawl Peach but was never given any credit as I don't believe he ever travelled stateside. But he would regularly place high in Japan towards the end of Brawl's life. He'd take sets off some of the best Japanese MKs even and even won a few majors outright there iirc.

I'd just like to take this opportunity to remind everybody that I've mentioned Kie months ago in this thread when everybody was losing their **** over Umeki. People need to start paying attendtion to how these people place at japanese tournaments and who they beat, not what kind of stuff they do when they're in the USA. Umeki is awesome but he has like no big wins under his belt except Yoc.

Peach has been criminally underrated in both Brawl and S4.

Incorrect. Peach has never been underrated.

If Kie doesn't make at least top 16 I'll be shocked.

You shouldn't be. Him placing top 16 is just as likely as him not making it.

 

[Y2Kay]

Have we ever seen Greninja vs Peach at top level? Genuinely asking because nothing comes to mind.



I've never shared this opinion even though it's a common one among Greninja mains.

Peach can float in Greninja's blind spot and harass him with Dair, about which he can do virtually nothing. Fair is too slow and will generally hit too high if Peach is positioned right because of Greninja's high short hop. If Greninja takes his time and positions Fair correctly, Peach has plenty of time to drop down and shield (or even just float back) because again this takes time.

Peach abuses Greninja's blindspot better than anyone else in the cast. She often forces him to run back and throw shurikens, which again she can float through with good reactions. You can Hydro Pump her float, but again this is really slow to execute. Peach CAN approach from the air. I think Greninja is good at delaying her approach but he cannot (almost) stop it altogether like with Luigi, Ganon or D3.

Fair is brutal and operates in the exact range of Greninja's short hops. It is one of the only aerials in the game to consistently trade positively with Greninja's Fair (even Mewtwo's doesn't do that except at high percents, where his Fair is still outdamaged but will kill earlier) leaving his usual walling strats pretty sketchy.

The strengths you've mentioned for Greninja are valid so I won't cover them in detail, but Peach has enough going for her to bring this MU to 50:50.

Some has beaten Umeki twice; iStud has beaten Meru multiple times. Besides Tasty Tofu losing to Kie, Greninja's have beaten her constitenly at high level. There's enough there to me to call it 55:45 Greninja's favor.

 

[Yikarur]

Eddy lost every single set against Meru so far.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

Here's a possibly better matchup chart for Peach. Little Mac is still her best matchup, it seems.View attachment 118631

She doesn't seem to struggle with some top tiers. Heck. She even bodies the high tiers. The first one I posted seemed wrong to me when Yoshi was considered even for Peach. But I like this one. Please share your thoughts. How would Peach rise in the meta now?

Lol @ Falcon, Marcina, Cloud, Diddy Kong, and especially Meta Knight.

Falcon: Float doesn't bother Falcon, bair tends to swat her out of the sky, and like Little Mac, you can easily punish her landings. Falcon's much better at sharking beneath Peach than Mac is and even jumping out to bair or nair her, as well as the occasional uair that usually doesn't get the chance to start up completely because of Peach dair. Not saying Falcon wins but I don't think he loses. It's pretty even.

Marcina, Diddy, and Cloud: Their disjoints control most of the space in these match ups. Every Cloud aerial, every Marcina aerial except dair as well as many of their tilts, and Diddy Kong fair destroy float spacing, with the exception of floating too high for Diddy to safely approach with an aerial but also too high for Peach to do anything, yielding only a temporary moment of safety until float ends and she enters their zones again.

A little more on Cloud: People seem to forget that it can be rather hard to get Cloud off stage because he's so good on stage. And a Cloud that likes to keep limit for the recovery and stat boost shouldn't have any problems with Peach. His air movement is too good for Peach to really fight well against.

Meta Knight: Meta Knight + Floaties = really bad match up and Peach is no exception. At least Rosalina has Luma to help defend herself, if Meta Knight fthrows or dash attacks Peach at the right percents (There was a chart that listed all percent windows a while back, around when Samsora and Abadango were playing each other) then she's likely going to die. No match up where if you get touched you're almost guaranteed death is a 60:40 match up.

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

Top 16 for Karisuma 10 (Japan) Only 80 entrants but its worth including imo (Category 1)

1. SH
2. Taiheita
3. Ikep
4. Rizeasu
5. Eda
5. 9B
7. Earth
7. HIKARU
9. Kisha
9. Nga
9. Kuro
9. Sign
13. Masha
13. Oisiitofu
13. DIO
13. Onpu

Credits to @juddy96 with the translated bracket! http://challonge.com/Karisuma10T

 

[mountain_tiger]

Swordfighters have always been Peach's main problem MUs, unfortunately - it's just a natural consequence of her character design. In fact, in that MU chart posted, there's a decent argument for practically every swordfighter to be put in as one category worse than is stated (except maybe Robin and the Pits - those MUs are pretty even).

(Conversely, I reckon at least three of those '60:40' MUs are actually better for Peach than that, but since the characters in question are very dangerous tournament choices anyway arguing that would possibly be much of a muchness...)

Meta Knight: Meta Knight + Floaties = really bad match up and Peach is no exception. At least Rosalina has Luma to help defend herself, if Meta Knight fthrows or dash attacks Peach at the right percents (There was a chart that listed all percent windows a while back, around when Samsora and Abadango were playing each other) then she's likely going to die. No match up where if you get touched you're almost guaranteed death is a 60:40 match up.

While I agree that Peach vs MK specifically is worse than 40:60, I'd like to quickly say that I don't think the bolded is necessarily true. To give an example, there were quite a few characters where, when facing Melee Jigglypuff, being touched meant death... but they still managed to hold their own well enough.

 

[Megamang]

Re: peach

Once she is dairing your shield, youve already messed up. Much like bite mixups with Wario, you should just keep her away.

Rayquaza was playing WAY too scared, he just shielded and waited to see what was gonna kill him...

 

[meticulousboy]

I mean, Captain Falcon has to do more of the approaching than Peach, seeing that he has no projectiles to deal with. Falcon is a fast faller, so Dthrow to Ftilt to regrab is a thing for Peach in that matchup. He has a recovery that is easy to telegraph. Captain Falcon's only saving grace may be to catch a turnip on stage.

As for Marth and Lucina, when a projectile goes up against a sword, that makes the matchup much more neutral. So maybe that was the logic behind putting those two as even?

 

[FullMoon]

Personally I see Peach as either an even or a slight advantage, I could see it going either way. All I'm sure of is that Greninja doesn't lose.

All things considered shurikens and hydro pump should make it hard for Peach to do her float shenanigans and Greninja's disjoints and overall better range should make it hard to approach. Still Peach sure can bring the pain once she gets going.

 

[HoSmash4]

Eddy lost every single set against Meru so far.

Yep. Eddy/Meru are more comparable skill wise than Dennis and Meru.

I feel like Peaches gain so much from people playing bad. This is partly due to the fact that a lot of peaches moves e.g landing bair/fair/uair/dtilt make her hurtbox ridiculously small and with Peach's damage output/overall knockback, it means micro misspacing as a result of being a bit off hurts a lot.

Peach Upsmash is super good as well. Very hard to punish when they go for a roll read (and you're shielding) and a lot of times you insinctively prepare for the fair/dash attack/dair option

 

[EternalFlare]

The anti-Peach and the anti-Corrin meta are extremely underdeveloped outside of Japan, that's why these 'upsets' keep happening. Ain't much you can do when you're not prepared for a Peach of that level.



I'd just like to take this opportunity to remind everybody that I've mentioned Kie months ago in this thread when everybody was losing their **** over Umeki. People need to start paying attendtion to how these people place at japanese tournaments and who they beat, not what kind of stuff they do when they're in the USA. Umeki is awesome but he has like no big wins under his belt except Yoc.



Incorrect. Peach has never been underrated.



You shouldn't be. Him placing top 16 is just as likely as him not making it.

So you'e telling me a guy that was consistently beating top tiers in Brawl of all games with Peach is just because he was like twice as good as everyone or something?

It can't possibly be because Peach has always been underrated? You of all people should have realized this by now. No other "mid tier" in Brawl had even close to the results of Peach between Kie and SlazerZ.

The character has insanely good neutral, edge guarding, shield pressure and an incredibly good disadvantage between one of the better recoveries, nair and good landing mixups and very safe early kill options compared to most. In particular she has easily one of the best kill fairs in the game.

Her weakness has always been projectiles and disjoints. As I've mentioned above, even in Brawl the game where projectiles and disjoints were the meta, she still had fantastic results towards the end. Apart from a few rare exceptions in Smash 4 both of these things have been nerfed making it easier for her to shine.

As of right now in Smash 4, Peach's results are not bad. She already has some of the bigger wins recently for a mid tier character including Ally (3 times by 3 different Peaches), Anti and she doesn't do badly in Japan either as you are implying. She gotten a few top 8s as well as top 16s. Considering Japan is is the most stacked region in the world if we consider it one region, that's nothing to scoff at.

 

[bc1910]

Yep. Eddy/Meru are more comparable skill wise than Dennis and Meru.

I feel like Peaches gain so much from people playing bad. This is partly due to the fact that a lot of peaches moves e.g landing bair/fair/uair/dtilt make her hurtbox ridiculously small and with Peach's damage output/overall knockback, it means micro misspacing as a result of being a bit off hurts a lot.

Peach Upsmash is super good as well. Very hard to punish when they go for a roll read (and you're shielding) and a lot of times you insinctively prepare for the fair/dash attack/dair option

This is pretty much what I think.

Eddy/Meru and Some/Umeki are the only ones out of those where the skill differential is small enough to tell us more about the MU than the players IMO.

Still it is interesting that Some has a positive record against Umeki.

I'd stand by my original 50/50 assertion.

 

[Das Koopa]

Round 2 Predictions

Spoiler: Wave J

Ally > James
WaDi > True Blue
(Ally > WaDi, Ally advances to Top 32)

Mr. E > Nick Riddle
Pink Fresh > Calculus
(Pink Fresh > Mr. E, Pink Fresh advances to Top 32)

Saj > Seagull Joe
Komorikiri > Sodrek
(Komorikiri > Saj, Komorikiri advances to Top 32)

Ryuga > SuperGirlKels
Larry Lurr > Ri-Ma
(Larry Lurr > Ryuga, Larry Lurr advances to Top 32)

Abadango > Ksev
6WX > Pugwest
(Abadango > 6WX, Abadango advances to Top 32)

Mr. R > Zex
Fatality > Samsora
(Mr. R > Fatality, Mr. R advances to Top 32)

Dabuz > King James
NAKAT > Shogun
(Dabuz > NAKAT, Dabuz advances to Top 32)

Salem > MJG
Rich Brown > Kie
(Salem > Rich Brown, Salem advances to Top 32)

Spoiler: Wave K

CaptainZack > Mew2King
VoiD > LingLing
(VoiD > CaptainZack, VoiD advances to Top 32)

Ned > Dyr
ANTi > Puppeh
(ANTi > Ned, ANTi advances to Top 32)

Nairo > Vivid
K9 > Static Manny
(Nairo > K9, Nairo advances to Top 32)

Zinoto > Cosmos
FILIP > Aarkvark
(Zinoto > FILIP, Zinoto advances to Top 32)

JK > Tweek
JJROCKETS > Frozen
(JK > JJROCKETS, JK advances to Top 32)

Rayquaza07 > MVD
ZeRo > Venom
(ZeRo > Rayquaza07, ZeRo advances to Top 32)

Kamemushi > Karna
8BitMan > False
(Kamemushi > 8BitMan, Kamemushi advances to Top 32)

Marss > TheReflexWonder
Wrath > DKWill
(Wrath > Marss, Wrath advances to Top 32)

My expectations for upsets: JK > Tweek, Zack > M2K.
Potential ones that might be underlooked/could happen imo: Kie > Rich Brown, Shogun > NAKAT, Rayquaza07 > ZeRo, Cosmos > Zinoto, Rich Brown > Salem, Ned > ANTi, Sodrek > Komorikiri.

 

[ARGHETH]

Round 2 Predictions

Saj > Seagull Joe
Komorikiri > Sodrek
(Komorikiri > Sodrek, Komorikiri advances to Top 32)



Kamemushi > Karna
8BitMan > False
(Kamemushi > False, Kamemushi advances to Top 32)

Might want to fix that.

 

[TDK]

Rich Brown 2-1 Kie

Last Stock, Last Hit. Kie just barely landed in the up smash and that cost him.

 

[FamilyTeam]

You know, after this nwtch, I have to ask: why does the last hit of multihits have such giant hitboxes? Falcon's jab says hello.

 

[Das Koopa]

Calculus > Pink Fresh

First DarkShad and now PF.

 

[Fenny]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Ouch.

 

[TDK]

You know, after this nwtch, I have to ask: why does the last hit of multihits have such giant hitboxes? Falcon's jab says hello.

Kie wasn't actually in the galaxy. It's really dumb. You'd think it'd be smaller since you have a ton of chances to get them into it.

EDIT: SuperGirlKels 2-1 Ryuga

 

[Fenny]

Seagull Joe (?) 2-0 Saj

Looks like all that PF experience came through for him. Not too worried about Saj since he's a bit of a loser's bracket shark though.

 

[Das Koopa]

Ri-Ma > Larry Lurr

 

[Fenny]

CEO 2016 Part Deux is apparently under way right now lmao

 

[Das Koopa]

SGKs narrowly beat Ryuga

The bloodbath is starting

Edit: Pugwest 2-1 6WX

 

[FamilyTeam]

I heard Kogarasuma is out?... Awww... Seriously?... I still have hope for Lucina in this tournament!

 

[TDK]

I guess CEO wasn't just a dream...

EDIT: NAKAT 2-0 Shogun

Wasn't even close...

 

[Fenny]

SGKs narrowly beat Ryuga

The bloodbath is starting

Edit: Pugwest 2-1 6WX

Your predictions are on the verge of getting straight up eviscerated in these pools rofl

 

[Das Koopa]

I assumed this would be clean for once after yesterday but it would seem yesterday's normal pools were just charging the smash attack

 

[NotLiquid]

Oh boy I do not look forward to Dabuz vs Nakat

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

Oh boy I do not look forward to Dabuz vs Nakat

He has a fox and a pikachu as well. Not saying he would win but imo it could go either way. Great stuff by nakat vs shogun

 

[Das Koopa]

Samsora 2-0 Fatality

rip my predictions

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

Samsora 2-0 Fatality

rip my predictions

rip