Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Djmarcus44]

There was a discussion going on in the Mii discord about MU spread. Players like Protom, Marteen, AEM, Slime, Ridel, Sevenator and I took a part in the discussion and that MU spread which I linked was the end production.



For example "Damn cops found mii" are considered to have a slight edge over Gunner. I won't be saying numbers 'cause it will always 'cause a ****storm.
Rosa, Yoshi and Fox are MUs where you should always pick a secondary. Fox is able to deal with our wall of projectiles with his reflector and quick burst options. He has easy time getting in and dealing damage to use due to Gunner being a combo food. In Yoshi's case he can easily "float over" our projectiles. Gunner has easier time dealing and shutting down grounded approach, but aerial is not that easy to deal with. And in Rosa&Luma's case... Down-B the MU. Ofc we can jump to using Nair and other projectiles, but it heavily limits our options both in killing and neutral. Also add to that us being a combo food and our recovery which lacks hitbox above and you can see why it is a bad MU.



1111 Swordspider has a rough time dealing with Gunner's projectiles due to his poor mobility, lack of moves that can "counter" the projectile spam and really weak recovery. Swordspider also cannot deal enough damage to even out the % once he gets in unlike Ganondorf, Link, Luigi or DK. Add to that his bad kill options and you can see why it isn't a good MU.

Also I dropped Swordspider (rip in butter knife sharpener factory) in favour of 3112 Gunner some time ago.

As for other MUs...

You seem to forget Mac's amazing mobility. I'm familiar with Mac's options and how he deals with stuff (had a small discussion with our "local" Mac player ZartZu about Mac) and quite frankly he does not struggle as much as you would think in the MU. Gunner is rather linear character in general which makes it easy to understand how to fight him. While we can try to wall with Fairs and Flame Pillars etc he is able to get in with his amazing mobility. Only when we have Bomb Drop are we able to shutdown his ground game.

The thing about Ganondorf is that even thos we beat him in neutral... What happens when he gets in? This is same reason why Luigi is considered to be neutral. The only difference what makes Luigi harder is that he has far better damage dealing options when he gets in. There was a discussion going about Mii MUs against Ganondorf and this was pretty much the conclusion (if I have to put numbers then the MU is somethings like 55:45 or possibly 50:50 with correct stage pick). Also we have a weakness to his boots.

While Zelda's reflector is amazing it is still relatively laggy. You can bait the reclector with sh and punish the lag with charge shot. The main reasons why Zelda is considered to be easier than other characters with reflectors is due to her worse neutral and her taller size. I want to note that "evenish" doesn't mean it is 50:50. It can range from very slight advantage to very slight disadvantage.

As for Pikachu. Well that pesky little rat is really hard to hit due to his small size and great mobility. Als we do have hard time recovering. We can try to weave in and out after up-b like Faptain to avoid certain moves, but it is still rather hard to get back without getting hit while recovering.

Main difference between Sheik and ZSS is that ZSS can kill us before the rage kicks in. That is mainly the difference. I do agree tho it isn't that bad and I will try to look more into the MU. I want to remind that this isn't my tier list, but rather most agreed upon MU spread for Gunner by Gunner players and other players atm.

I just want to remind that theory and practice don't always go hand in hand. This can be seen for example from Gunner vs Luigi. Even tho in theory we can keep him at bay all the time... Does it really happen in game? Also whe discussing about characters we have to always also look at the stages and both strenghts and weaknesses.

For other MU things I really don't have the answer. Like I said this list was a produced by multiple Gunner players and other character mains.

I realize that theory and practice don't always line up. That is why I posted some tournament results that disagreed with some of the matchup spread. While the matchup group has a good number of people, it could use some more 1111 Gunner mains (especially for the 1111 Gunner matchup chart). Is there any way that I can join this Discord?

While Fox has the tools to get around Gunner's zoning tools better than most of the cast, the matchup is doable because Gunner can combo Fox pretty hard off of grabs. In addition, Gunner's frame 3 reflector, small size, and somewhat slow fall speed actually make Gunner good at avoiding combos relative to the rest of the cast (Seriously, the "once I get in" logic used to justify beating Gunner even though results and other parts of theory say otherwise has to stop. It completely ignores the fact that Gunner's disadvantage state is actually good, and assumes that people are going to get the hits that convert into the most damage every time they get in. It is a painfully unrealistic thought that has been keeping Gunner's placement on matchup spreads down for too long. This is not aimed at one person, it is just a reminder to people making matchup spreads). Wii Twerk Trainer beating Razo's Fox at 2GG Breakthrough shows that Gunner doesn't lose at the character select screen (It doesn't show much else because Razo wasn't very good with Fox).

If Yoshi does that, he will be putting himself in a disadvantageous position. Gunner also has the range advantage over Yoshi in the air. In addition, it would make dash to shield even more effective against Yoshi.

Gunner can approach with ground level fairs in order to keep out both Rosalina and Luma and get a frame advantage on Gravitational Pull that can be punished by dash attack or dash grab. While Rosalina and Luma can juggle and edgeguard Gunner hard, Gunner can use Gundashing and stalling with reflector in order to avoid the juggling and mix up the recovery.

While Little Mac's mobility is great, he still struggles in neutral against Gunner because he is much more linear than Mii Gunner. It also doesn't help that he has a poor dash to shield. The stages aren't that helpful for him either since he can be platform camped on several stages (Most notably on Smashville and Duck Hunt), and his best stage helps Gunner as well. In addition, Gundashing, and reverse flame pillar keep the character from being linear.

Gunner beats Ganondorf so badly in neutral that you honestly can't assume that he will get in every stock. His options walled out by fair. In addition, he doesn't have have a move fast enough to punish a point blank range fair out of perfect shield. Gunner also outspeeds him in CQC. In my personal experience, I was able to take a stock from Ganondorf at my skill level while I was only at 8%.

While Pikachu has good mobility, a lot of Pikachu's moves in the neutral are unsafe on block. In addition, Gunner has more options for recovery than Captain Falcon since Gunner can stall with reflector or Gundash to the stage.

FeelMeUp has posted plenty of kill setups for Sheik. In addition, Sheik is much better at disrupting Gunner's neutral than ZSS because needles are fast and difficult to see. ZSS is also easier for Gunner to edgeguard than Sheik because ZSS is more reliant on recovering to the ledge.

 

[Plain Yogurt]

I'd like to ask you and everyone in this thread a few things. Maybe that'll be the spark of discussion we need. Don't have to answer all the questions, but passing along this sort of information has to be amazing for the competitive community. If you're unsure on one of the questions, DO NOT answer it without saying you're uncertain.

• 3-5 good characters(top half of the cast) your main does well against?
• 5 bad/mediocre characters(bottom half of the cast) does your main do worse than expected or poorly against?
• What's your main's most optimal playing style and why?
• What area(s) could mains of your character improve in to push their meta further and make them be seen as a better individual on the roster?
• What matchups or strategies could stop your main from advancing in the meta?
• Good character to secondary/pocket with your main?
• A few little known facts about your main that people get caught up on? Tricks they have, things you shouldn't try to punish, etc

This sounds fun. I'll give it a shot. Keep the talk going.

Spoiler: 3-5 good characters(top half of the cast) your main does well against?

I've done relatively well against these top tiers in bracket (DOES NOT NECESSARILY MEAN WINNING. Just "Oh hey I can do this."):

: Buster is excellent in this matchup, as it quickly destroys Luma while improving your shield safety, preventing Rosa from retaliating to your landing lag if you space correctly. From there switching to speed allows you to pressure Rosa. Even with Luma, Rosa is a much more patient fighter than most top tiers from my experience, allowing Shulk to stay at a range he feels more comfortable fighting at instead of constantly trying to get the other guy off of him. However, Rosa's excellent juggling can make Jump art approaches iffy, though at the same time the improved air speed can help escape said juggles. It's also pretty much your only chance against Rosa's excellent edge guard game, and then you have to be careful against her ledge-trapping. Shield can be effective for holding onto that stock, and it's especially good at frustrating solo Rosa with her mediocre kill power, but it again makes you more susceptible to juggles. Smash is dangerous with Luma around, but Rosa is a light character, so it's worth considering when she's trying to make her way back on stage.

: A bit harder to fight thanks to his mobility, but he's also much easier to KO. Speed and Jump are very important to keep up your spacing against him, while Shulk arguably has a better grounded game, buttons-wise, to make up for Cloud's better air game. Unfortunately, UTilt causes Shulk to stick his arm in the air as he swings the Monado, causing a trade with Cloud's Dair, though Vision is also an option if the opponent gets predictable with it. Switching to Shield to avoid being killed early by LCS may get you camped, but if it does, then it also gives you breathing room to recharge Speed. Both characters can kind of murder each other off stage with their hard to snap recoveries. I feel developing Shulk's Speed perfect pivots is crucial in this matchup to further help against Cloud's incredible movement. A character I really need to stop taking to Battlefield no matter how much I love it.


Those are the two I'm most comfortable with saying Shulk does okay. I have suspicions that the following are possibly decent, but I need more EXP against them (gonna go rapid fire short notes here):

: Shield mode messes with ceiling combos while also reducing stun/burial time while Speed mode can help get past Zair pressure. Shulk likes her not being able to grab him out of everything too.

: Shield helped him get out of combos BEFORE the SDI changes and his fair can challenge her side B recovery if predicted. If Shield's on cooldown though Shulk is in trouble if he gets hit, and recovery is hard against her Nair. Shulk not having many true follow ups also makes him easy to Witch Time, though MALLC can save him.

MAYbe ? I dunno. Some games I've managed to run away and keep him out and annoy the crap out of him and some games he grabs me once and takes me for a ride. Grains of salt here. I think most Shulks think this one is pretty bad so I'll stop here.

Spoiler: 5 bad/mediocre characters(bottom half of the cast) does your main do worse than expected or poorly against?

Not necessarily bad characters, but I dread fighting them in bracket:
: Like Sheik and Diddy Kong, these characters can run all over Shulk, either by trapping his options or just straight beating his buttons or both. But where Shulk can sort of cheese Sheik and Diddy out with Shield mode + rage on occassion if they don't gimp him early, these characters are pretty good at killing Shulk, I've found. I've been Daired and DSmashed by Falcon/Mac more than I care to admit and Fox just doesn't give a crap about anything Shulk does. Cross him up? Uptilt hits behind him. Runaway? Lasers are relatively good to use unless Shulk anticipates them while in speed. Get hit? Have fun getting back into neutral. Yeah I know Fox can do this to a lot of characters but it just feels awful to have all these modes to switch into and only one or two feel okay for the matchup. Shulk's main saving grace is that all of these characters have weaker recoveries.

: I think this is more a personal problem for me but I always just feel like I'm fighting so hard to get in on this character only for him to grab me and pummel me away before starting it all over again. Getting stuck on a ledge against him isn't much fun either. I haven't fought one in a while though so maybe my personal improvement will lead to a better opinion.

Spoiler: What's your main's most optimal playing style and why?

I personally like having folks in the midrange, using speed granted from Shulk's speed and jump modes alongside his massive range to frustrate his opponent with long range pokes that drift back or cross-up. Vision is also excellent against frustrated foes. Buster is also a solid neutral option, trading movement for better safety on shield along with threatening shield breaks. Long range fighters are tough because Shulk hates approaching while close range fighting is hard because--all together now--Shulk has bad frame data. Shulk doesn't mind dragging a game on either, running with the lead and using Shield to hang onto stocks for disgusting amounts of time, all the while batting foes away from him.

"What area(s) could mains of your character improve in to push their meta further and make them be seen as a better individual on the roster?"

Definitely gonna say what the other Shulks here have said and point out that Shulk's techs need to be used to SUPPLEMENT his game, not be entirely built around them. I won't speak much for Shulk's top players though because I haven't watched them in a while. Need to get on that.

"What matchups or strategies could stop your main from advancing in the meta?"
Heavy punish characters who can kill Shulk early really cause him problems. On the other end of the spectrum, runaway can be very problematic too. I've been both annihilated AND camped by Fox in bracket before. Neither are particularly fun.

Spoiler: A few little known facts about your main that people get caught up on? Tricks they have, things you shouldn't try to punish, etc

-Even in Smash mode, an optimally-landed Nair is plus against shield drop.

-In Buster, if you are close enough to an opponent with their shield up and your back is facing them, the first hit of DSmash might still hit their shield, which has so much shieldstun that they can't drop shield before the second hit behind Shulk breaks it. Will rarely happen in a match, but still neat. Maybe a ledge set up if they like ledge get up -> shield too much?

-Adding on to Buster stuff, Back Slash has bonus shield damage, making it a decent shield break tool. Especially nice on platform stages, as Shulk swinging overhead allows it to hit opponents above him, causing surprise breaks.

-When characters land while drifting backwards in the air, they slide a little when they turn around on the ground. Speed Shulk drifts particularly far, allowing for surprise non-dash burst movement.

-You WILL be hit by USmash at the ledge at least once.

Well that ate up some time. Hope y'all get something out of it. I always enjoy talking about the Monado Boy.

 

[Megamang]

What does my main struggle with surprisingly?

Lucario. After a certain percent, aura sphere cuts straight through all of his projectiles. Megaman doesnt have a reliable time killing if he doesnt land a shoryu setup. Play smart and safe around bair and metal blade setups, and youll be fine. Dont die trying to cqc, and your aura sphere gets to a point where it does all the work alone, mega will have to close the gap with... powershields, and his great aerial maneuverability. But pellets and stuff still get stuffed hard by giant AS.

Learn when to release them to beat out pellets (varies by percent). Specifically, the least charge to still beat out pellets drops as you take damage, and you shoot faster and faster.

Its how i handle the ditto usually.

To be fair, im not a pro vs the character and have little experience with high level Lucario.


What can be worked on? Edgeguarding him. More specifically, consistent ledge traps. Ive been doing zdrop stuff to setup utilt, walking utilt covers ledgeroll... z drop can be slightly altered to hit the ledge wait and stage spike (bair multihit followup if youre rushed, if not a dair can be an earlier kill).

Uhhmm.. i also worry if sonic learns the MU well he will win, fsmash at the ledge is just ugh all day. Bair is powerful vs projectiles. And im sure specifically engineered megaman combos can be better than many in the cast, similar to fox his physics just ask for it.

Edit: small, unrelated mac nitpick. If you 'win everywhere but FD', you win. You wont play FD vs him unless you make a big mistake, or maybe one game in finals.

Also, stop gentlemanning side kill characters to SV. Its still gonna happen, but i like saying it a lot.

 

[Peppermint1201]

• 3-5 good characters(top half of the cast) your main does well against?
• 5 bad/mediocre characters(bottom half of the cast) does your main do worse than expected or poorly against?
• What's your main's most optimal playing style and why?
• What area(s) could mains of your character improve in to push their meta further and make them be seen as a better individual on the roster?
• What matchups or strategies could stop your main from advancing in the meta?
• Good character to secondary/pocket with your main?
• A few little known facts about your main that people get caught up on? Tricks they have, things you shouldn't try to punish, etc

1)
: Nair and projectiles allow ROB to keep Ness out very well, and punish his grab-centric playstyle. On top of this, ROB has one of the best spikes in the game, a tool that allows him to pretty consistently mess with Ness' recovery. Ness, of course, can still abuse ROB's "combo food" attributes and absorb lasers with down-b, but the matchup is 55:45 ROB favor or even depending on who you ask.

: Luigi also has a game plan heavily centered on grabs, but even more so than Ness, and he has less mobility, range, and anti-projectile tools to cover for it. For this reason, he has a pretty hard time against ROB -- he can "make it work" but it's solidly 55:45 up to 60:40.

: Lucario doesn't really have an answer to ROB's kit in general; the only good counterplay he has is stealing the gyro and aura sphere charge camping, which is easier said than done and still exploitable by ROB's laser. He gets kept out and out-damaged pretty effectively, and ROB has a large amount of kill options to keep aura memes at bay.

Also, for what it's worth, ROB can beat if they don't know the matchup well -- if they do, it's not fun at all.


2)
: Even in 1111, Gunner is pretty competent against ROB, boasting a massive upair, effective options after stealing the gyro, a decent combo game, and a strong reflector. ROB can do the matchup, but he has to work harder than he does against some other low-tiers with reflectors *cough cough *


: Puff may not win the matchup per se, but she has tools more specialized for the ROB matchup than a lot of characters. Her aerial mobility allows her to punish projectile usage and she can gimp his exploitable recovery. On top of this, dthrow upair isn't really an option due to her light weight.

: Zelda has a very good reflector, stripping ROB of the strong projectile game he abuses in many matchups. However, unlike ROB vs Falco or Palutena, Zelda has tool such as her up-b, Din's Fire, and down-b that can threaten ROB for playing the patient neutral he normally does in reflector matchups.



Will probably answer the other questions later

 

[Heracr055]

• What's your main's most optimal playing style and why?

Ryu's optimal playstyles are playing footsies and severely punishing mistakes. You're always on the lookout for an overexertion by the opponent (unsafe Smash attacks, whiffed grabs, etc) and making them suffer for it with huge damage moves and combos. Ideally, two mistakes on the opponent's part result in their stock.

• What area(s) could mains of your character improve in to push their meta further and make them be seen as a better individual on the roster?

I find that many Ryus like to just rush in with short hopped nairs. This is counter-productive to Ryu's playstyle; you want them to make a move, then you make the appropriate response. I think people need to become more creative with their Focus Attacks. You can use them to mix up your landings, set up footstool combos as seen in Hooded's videos, and baiting a reaction you can take advantage of. Something new for me is using FACD backwards to improve Ryu's ability to control space and aim with Bair (since SH Bair may miss. Lastly, as said by apparently fuz, people have a tendency to throw out whatever hitboxes with little thought why. Ryu has the tools to deal with almost any situation, but there's no "one move" that Ryu has that will beat out anything. Please experiment with his moveset and determine the optimal move for each situation! This is something that I've really been thinking about and putting into practice, and I'm experiencing a massive improvement and appreciation for the character.

• What matchups or strategies could stop your main from advancing in the meta?

I really think the Bayonetta matchup is a roadblock. Bullet Arts, Bullet Climax, Heel Slide, Dair and Witch Twist really screw with Ryu's footsies game and Focus Attack. Witch Time is devastating against Ryu and I am constantly blown away with how much reward she gets off of it. Mewtwo's rise is another roadblock. Shadow Ball is excellent for mindgames and setting up a situation where Mewtwo can rush in and grab us. Up Smash is excellent for dealing with Focus Attack. I also feel we get outranged by Mewtwo's tilts. Multi-hit aerials (think Ness and Lucas Fairs and Nairs for example) are good for keeping us out. Speaking of Lucas, his Zair and PK Fire are a pain for Ryu to get past. I feel his frame data makes him hard to punish too; I hate fighting Lucas.

• A few little known facts about your main that people get caught up on? Tricks they have, things you shouldn't try to punish, etc

Two at the top of my head: Baiting a whiffed TSRK to trick my opponent into rushing in to punish with a grab, etc and catching them completely off guard with a TSRK. Another one is when I'm on the ledge and I do normal get up. I input TSRK motion on the way off and shoot it off if foes try to approach the ledge; they never see it coming for some reason! I hope to start integrating TSRK motions into spot dodges soon, and look forward to thinking of new opportunities to employ it in.

 

[Emblem Lord]

The actual metagame is what keeps Ryu from advancing in the metagame.

Ryu only beats a Fox that doesnt know how to press the B button and doesnt know that Fox has a dtilt.

 

[Laken64]

Witch Time is devastating against Ryu and I am constantly blown away with how much reward she gets off of it.

Just curious but I've heard that if you trigger WT with dtilt you can buffer TSRK and go right though anything bayo might throw out. Is this true? Aside from that I agree with your statment

 

[Mega-Spider]

I'd like to ask you and everyone in this thread a few things. Maybe that'll be the spark of discussion we need. Don't have to answer all the questions, but passing along this sort of information has to be amazing for the competitive community. If you're unsure on one of the questions, DO NOT answer it without saying you're uncertain.

• 3-5 good characters(top half of the cast) your main does well against?
• 5 bad/mediocre characters(bottom half of the cast) does your main do worse than expected or poorly against?
• What's your main's most optimal playing style and why?
• What area(s) could mains of your character improve in to push their meta further and make them be seen as a better individual on the roster?
• What matchups or strategies could stop your main from advancing in the meta?
• Good character to secondary/pocket with your main?
• A few little known facts about your main that people get caught up on? Tricks they have, things you shouldn't try to punish, etc

etc etc.
Maybe this way there would be less johns about matchup inexperience, less low tiers winning off jank, and more low/mid tiers winning because they can more easily exploit the issues all high and top tier characters have.
I'll even make an example for my main

Spoiler: Sheik

Edit: Got owned by the daily 4 a.m checkup and this part didn't get saved. It's a shame. Was a lot of data.

Oh boy, this is going to be a long one. Since not many people talk about him here, I'm gonna bring up .

Question 1:

1. : Ever wonder why Larry Lurr doesn't use Fox against Kirby? Simple: Kirby combats a lot of Fox's options. If Kirby catches Fox with U-Tilt, Kirby can just wail on Fox for a while. Because he's a fast faller, Fox is prone to being comboed hard by Kirby, who has a great combo game from early to mid percents. It also helps that Fox is light, meaning that Kirby can kill Fox really easily. Then again, Kirby dies just as fast as Fox does, so that's to balance things out, I guess.
2. : While I wouldn't say that Kirby beats Sheik, he gives Sheik more trouble than a lot of other characters. Sheik can't really do "Sheik" things to Kirby because she'll get punished by Kirby pretty badly. Giving Kirby Needles is a pretty big burden on Sheik since Kirby can camp a little better than Sheik can with Needles. The main reason as to why I wouldn't say Kirby beats Sheik is because Sheik can edge guard Kirby pretty easily, and Kirby is prone to being edge guarded.
3. : I know Falcon's lost some steam since the metagame's been taking off, but he's still considered part of the top half of the cast right now. Kirby beats Falcon, no questions. Falcon is combo food, and can be gimped pretty easily by Kirby. It also helps that Kirby can duck under a good amount of his moves, especially his dash grab.
4. : This one could be debated, but I think Kirby does pretty decently against Zero Suit. Yeah, there's the whole "duck to avoid everything" strat, but that will only get you so far. Getting the Paralyzer is a great thing, since if you can catch Zero Suit with that, it can lead to some decent punishes.

Question 2:
1. : If there's one thing Kirby's always had in this series, it's low survivability. Get a guy like Bowser with his many insane kill options and can wall Kirby out pretty easily, this is not a fun MU.
2. : Kirby hates disjointed hitboxes and characters who can wall him out easily. Take a character like Lucas, and problems can rise pretty quickly.
3. : Maybe I'm just bad at this MU, but Charizard potentially does better against Kirby than I expected. Charizard is better at playing the aggressive game than Kirby is, and combined with Charizard's kill potential, Kirby's not gonna have much fun with the MU. Take this one with a grain of salt since I don't have too much experience in the MU.

Question 3:

Kirby is best played as a bait and punish/defensive character. I know that sounds counterproductive considering his low weight, but Kirby doesn't have the speed to be outright aggressive. In the Kirby games, Kirby waits for a boss to attack and if they miss, he goes in. This is the best way Kirby should be played, as he capitalizes on players making mistakes. I remember talking to RK, one (you've seen him a couple of times too) in the Kirby Smashcord about this, but Kirby is basically a reverse . Kirby has to be more defensive while Mario can afford to be more aggressive. Both thrive heavily on grabs, but Kirby doesn't have the aggression Mario has in order to succeed as well as Mario does.

Question 4:

I know there was some discussion about this, but Kirby players need to utilize his Copy Abilities more. Yes, since Kirby's approach sucks, it's hard for him to get an ability. I'm not entirely sure if there's a confirm for Inhale, but if you opponent messes up by not spacing properly or get a read on them, that's the best bet. Some MUs like , , become in Kirby's favor once he gets the Copy Ability. 's and 's give him an extra option that can help Kirby out in the long run. The only other area Kirby players need to look more into is his crouch. It's one of the best in the game, and frustrates and .

Question 5:

What stops Kirby a lot is that he has a lot of losing MUs against the top tiers, high tiers, and most of the mid tiers. Ever see a Kirby fight a ? That is a tragic MU to say the least. MUs like , , , , , and really do hold Kirby back, especially with how common characters like Sonic are. It also doesn't help that Kirby's usually seen as a counterpick character against Fox and Sheik. I know he does pretty well in those MUs, but it further drives the point that Kirby's not going to be a top half of the cast pick any time soon.

Question 6:

Kirby's a character that has to have someone to help him out if you plan on playing Kirby. Some good picks are , , , , (this one I've seen a lot thanks to KID Goggles and SuperGirlKels), and . Personally, I always love to have with Kirby. Apart from Megs being one of my two mains, he also combats a lot of the mid tiers, high tiers, and some of the top tiers for Kirby. Characters Megs helps Kirby with are: , , , , , . Kirby also helps Megs out with characters like and , but doesn't do that badly against or . I know 's not a popular choice due to how hard he is to learn, but that's who I like to use.

Question 7:

Since Kirby's so simple, there isn't that much to say about him. He does have some unknown stuff about him, like this:

Credit goes to @Phan7om for these videos.

So... yeah. That's for ya.

 

[MistressRemilia]

I'd like to ask you and everyone in this thread a few things. Maybe that'll be the spark of discussion we need. Don't have to answer all the questions, but passing along this sort of information has to be amazing for the competitive community. If you're unsure on one of the questions, DO NOT answer it without saying you're uncertain.

• 3-5 good characters(top half of the cast) your main does well against?
• 5 bad/mediocre characters(bottom half of the cast) does your main do worse than expected or poorly against?
• What's your main's most optimal playing style and why?
• What area(s) could mains of your character improve in to push their meta further and make them be seen as a better individual on the roster?
• What matchups or strategies could stop your main from advancing in the meta?
• Good character to secondary/pocket with your main?
• A few little known facts about your main that people get caught up on? Tricks they have, things you shouldn't try to punish, etc

etc etc.
Maybe this way there would be less johns about matchup inexperience, less low tiers winning off jank, and more low/mid tiers winning because they can more easily exploit the issues all high and top tier characters have.
I'll even make an example for my main

Spoiler: Sheik

Edit: Got owned by the daily 4 a.m checkup and this part didn't get saved. It's a shame. Was a lot of data.

I guess i'll be covering this for Doctor Mario, as i'm very much dedicated to the character & particularly in the small, yet relevant amount of characters Doc may go even or even beat, the characters that also beat him, the playstyle you should be opting for, the matchups you should fear, and the right answer/choice of secondary for them, and some other stuff:

Spoiler: 5 good/relevant characters your main does good/at least goes even with?

The first character i'll be covering is the most self explanatory out there: Mario. The neutral is relatively even because, after all, we kind of just share the same options to play neutral. Mario is the more flexible character in the neutral, but it is mostly thanks to his mobility. The facts that trades are mostly in our favor, and that Doc is a tad more efficient at killing than Mario makes the whole neutral not that overwhelming hard: Landing is a tough point tho, and may allow Mario to finish stocks, even though the use of B Reversal Cape to shift momentum & a good amount of offensive landing mixups make this a bit less awful. Doc still has more flexible OoS thanks to UpB being much better of a move in terms of reward. Disadvantage state is nothing special for both of them, they each have options for every scenario of disadvantage, but it remains in the domain of mixup for both because we both negate some of our combos so we usually stick to B&Bs, i already mentionned Landing, and edgeguarding is mostly a matter of reads, no real consistency on both sides ( Pills to snipe a low recovery from Mario, Tornado trapping Mario's eventual airdodge & dropzone Nair for edgeguarding Mario, for example ) . Overall, this matchup feels rather even.

The second character i'll be covering is another brawler, which are, as i mentionned a bit before, among the best Doc matchups thanks to their rather poor ability to outlame slow threats in most cases. Fox is just that, and while, just like Mario, Fox's mobility makes him a bit more flexible than us, Doc's non commital options on both aerial & grounded play as well the whole fluidity of the character thanks to a great SH & the options to go along with it allows us to keep up decently with Fox's whole game. Advantage state is fairly good, as Doc's B&Bs are rather efficient on fastfallers, and should allow us to get at least about 20% if not more in any%, Fox's most threatening aspect of advantage is his UpAir and overall juggling abilities, which against a character like Doc with below average landing, can be a bit annoying, but it's nothing that can't be dealt with. Frame 3 options are also rather good against Fox to mess up any of the things i've mentionned before. We're boss at edgeguarding Fox, thanks to our Cape dealing easily with Side B ( it SH ACs, its very non commital in general ) and dropzone nair/bair/a lot of other stuff against UpB. Fox's poor edgeguarding abilities are also rather enjoyable, even though we have to beware of his strong ledgetrapping & ledgetrumping options. So yeah, another fairly even matchup.

The 3rd character i'll be talking about is Villager: I could have gone for the easy way with Pikachu, which is an highly volatile matchup made even thanks to Pikachu being able to potentially end your stock fairly quickly thanks to his moveset being so centered around horizontal combos that may allow him more opportunities to edgeguard Doc, which is not free but still rather easy for Pikachu to do, but the neutral can be rather tough for Pikachu, as tools like Cape & Bair can be rather troublesome to deal with for the short ranged electric mouse. Our ability to, aside from edgeguards, survive much longer than Pikachu, and exploiting his occasionally unsafe options, and exploitable fall speed, lets us kill him very easily, so yeah, that's a pretty good matchup for us, but let's not get carried away, i'm here to talk about Villager. Villager is the kind of character which just shows the potency of Doc's Cape: The matchup from our perspective is simply to not lose stage control, which we should be maintaining fairly well thanks to said Cape: the SH AC makes this among the most efficient antizoning tools in the game, and it puts into work against Villager, as it allows us to commit to a jump most of the time w/out the fear of getting zoned out by Villy's nasty slingshots. This & Nair's properties allows for a rather even neutral. Losing stage control will lead into very bad stuff tho, as Villager is both a master of intercepting landings, ledgetrapping, edgeguarding, and is even okay at ledge trumping. Our advantage state is as consistent as always, but that Nair of Villager can be rather annoying, and trying to intercept landing or edgeguarding him can be rather tough, but we do outreward Villager in raw hits. So yeah, this matchup is also fairly even, maybe this time a very slight Villager favor, but i'm not exactly sure about it.

Honorable mention would go to Lucario, as i don't consider " relevant " enough to include him here, but i believe Lucario is the best matchup Doc has against any high tier character and up. All of Doc's strengths & sometimes Lucario's lack of option for making Doc struggle in any way shine in this particular matchup: We kill Lucario very well, the B-Reverse Aura Sphere become somewhat commital in most ranges because of both Cape & good options to intercept direct landing ( UpSmash ). Lucario's rather safe once reaching high%, but still has to sort of commit more or less to finish off stocks, which is where Doc's amazing OoS comes into play, to make all of this a real struggle for Lucario to play. I believe Doc wins this matchup slightly. The neutral is also overall even to maybe on our side, with Bairs playing a huge part as to why we're winning this handily, the 14% SH FF wonderful hit is quite hard for Lucario to rivalize with his own aerial, or from a defensive standpoint.

Spoiler: 4 bad/mediocre characters your main does worse than expected or poorly against?

So, we're now on to " mediocre characters " beating Doc, there are a fair amount, so i'll be mentionning, though not in as much details as the good matchups, the bad matchups Doc has against mediocre character, and the first character to start this discussion will be Palutena: This matchup is rather tough because of how the neutral ends up. Palutena's moves, mostly Bair & Fair, kind of negate the non commital aspect of Doc's aerial game by either outranging or simply beating Doc's moves. These moves also happen to be fairly safe, which against a non commital Palutena, makes the whole neutral & attempts to reach her rather hard. I'd also like to mention that Palutena's ability to sort of juggle Doc is kind of good: her air speed isn't the greatest but she has the options to cover both the offensive options ( UpAir will beat most of them ) and the more defensive choices we may go for ( Nair is particularly good, last hit can beat our attempt at airdodging, especially if done too early ). So yeah, quite a tough matchup for Doc to deal with.

Another character that does fairly well against Doc is Charizard. Now it should be known that Doc generally does rather poorly against the better heavyweights due to their overwhelming good ground game, which for a character like Doc, who revolves around a fairly low ( as in, not high up in the air ) aerial game, can definitly prove to be rather tough, and Charizard is no exception to that. His exceptional jab, Flamethrower & fairly good aerials will keep you out for a bit, even tho it is possible to outframe Charizard when reading any aerial commitment, as his jumpsquat & first frame of aerial look pale in comparaison to ours. Charizard is also exceptionally good at interceipting landings thanks to an amazingly fast UpSmash, good out of shield options, and very good ground mobility. Edgeguarding is also kind of free for Charizard when Doc is trying to recover high, as you'll pretty much be mashing UpB and take at least 10% as Flamethrower hits you offstage, any aerial hit on your second jump will also most likely result in death. However, it should be known that everything i've mentionned about advantage & disadvantage does apply to Charizard to a certain degree, but the edge in neutral makes this matchup Zard Favor.

There are many other cases of " mediocre characters " doing fairly good against Doc if you feel like expanding your thoughts on what exactly is a mediocre character: I already kind of covered Bowser, which is bad for almost the same reasons as Charizard, only that Bowser isn't as good in edgeguarding, but has a more consistent advantage state, and he gets exploited a bit less hard solely because of the fact that he doesn't fall into the fastfaller category. Ike is also quite hard because of how consistent & efficient Ike's kit is against Doc: Strong spacing tools, and the tools to punish for respecting them a bit too much. Eruption will make coming back onto stage quite tough as well, but that's about it for disadvantage state. So you have to find holes in Ike's gameplay to strike, but it isn't easy. This edge in neutral just dictates the matchup, making it kind of bad for us.

Spoiler: Playstyle, Tough matchups & ideal secondary choice?

On to non matchup based questions, i believe the ideal style of Doc is definitly something among the lines of Bait & Punish: The character's punish game & fluidity in the neutral allows Doc to move around, throw out some hitboxes and just try to apply some form of pressure on the opponent, in an attempt of then striking with any form of read that could lead into punishes.
The character has a bit to improve on, but it's rather hard to tell as Doc players are so rare. I'll mention two things tho: Management of disadvantage state, and deeper knowledge of what to do depending of the opponent's reaction during advantage state:
- Some tools remain unpolished yet useful for some matchups that would allow Doc to maybe survive a bit longer: Air stalling by going away with Tornado while keeping your jump & upb is, for example, an underrated option that may allow Doc to easily come back afterwards against an opponent that already commited to an edgeguarding option, but couldn't reach you.
- Deeper knowledge mainly involves frametrapping: Doc's ability to force airdodge is indeed very good, but what's even better is that most of Doc's moves used for combos can be used to allow you to simply frametrap them for a regrab or attack afterwards: This has been explored a bit, and led to such things as the FSmash airdodge punish when someone attempts to airdodge Dthrow to Fair. This kind of stuff will ultimately lead into Doc's advantage state becoming veeeryyy good.
I guess another nitpick would be to try & incorporate Cape into the neutral as an occassional mixup. As i've mentionned plenty of times already, this move is quite an insane anti zoning tool, but is also a decent mixup that throws people off and may even allow you from time to time to get something out of it afterwards. People are just not ready for it. Aside from that, our neutral is pretty well executed right now, even though some of our western Doc representation could be pushing the fluidity of Doc more with accurate SH FFs on Bair & Uair.

Sonic, Bayonetta, Rosalina & Cloud are all hard matchups that Doc has to deal with, and that are rather common. It should be known that, while Doc has quite a bit to offer as a character, i seriously wouldn't advice solo maining him, as these matchups, if played competently, should be a loss for even the best of Docs. That's why you need a secondary, and one of the best secondary you could be using is probably Corrin. I do not know of her Bayonetta or Cloud matchup in depth, but i assume they're decent ( I do not hear much complaints about them, its mostly Diddy & Fox that i hear a lot of bragging about from Corrin mains ) , but her Cloud & Sonic matchups are some of the best you could find. Alternatively, Cloud is a fairly good & easy pick, even tho Bayonetta will still be a bit tough. If you're exceptional at one of these four matchups, some picks like Meta Knight or Sheik that are more specific to one of these four characters may be the one secondary that suits you the most.

Tried to keep it as synthetic as i could, for the best understanding of every information i'm sharing. Some tricks that Docs may or may not be using are mentionned throughout the whole discussion, but i didn't feel like doing an entire paragraph on such a deep subject, as i consider Doc to have among the most diverse mixup game in all of Smash 4, but more on that another day. I'll gladly share any other information on Dr.Mario, or sets to better illustrate my arguments for or against the best of Doctors.

 

[UberMadman]

3-5 good characters(top half of the cast) your main does well against?

The Bowser Jr. Discord put this matchup at a slight loss, but I don't buy it. (Plus, a lot of good Jr. mains like Vicegrip and Parappa put it as even.) Ryu is easy for Bowser Jr. to juggle, gets out-disjointed by him, and has a linear as hell recovery that is easy to exploit for a character as good at edgeguarding as Jr. Plus, bad mobility makes it easier for Bowser Jr. to constantly keep Mechakoopas in play, as Mechakoopa's large amount of endlag makes it hard to set them up against fast characters because you know they will get the punish. Even imo, because Ryu can gimp Jr. easily with soft nair if he has to recover low and juggle him in return.



Similar to Ryu, but Falcon has much better mobility for an even worse recovery and being even more juggle-able. With the right setup, Jr. is able to deal some major damage to this guy.

I mean, I guess nowadays it's pretty easy to say that this character is bottom half of the cast, but for the sake of discussion, let's put him somewhere around the middle. Donkey Kong once again falls under the archetype of characters Jr. has a relatively easy time with: easy to juggle, linear recovery, lacks disjoints (except invincible down tilt among other things.) Those 3 factors are what make a matchup decent for Bowser Jr. Although I've seen some DKs put it at a slight advantage, I think it's worth noting that DKWill, who has had the most experience with Tweek's Bowser Jr., puts it at -1.

Finally updated this! My current thoughts on DK's matchup spread in the 1.1.6 meta. pic.twitter.com/977QKafia4

— DKwill (@_DKwill) September 28, 2016

5 bad/mediocre characters(bottom half of the cast) does your main do worse than expected or poorly against?

Like DK can be argued to be the bottom half of the cast, Lucas can be argued to be top half of the cast, but that aside uuuuuugh **** this MU. Bowser Jr. loves to float just outside of the opponent's effective range, but Lucas has the perfect tools to dissuade him from getting there. Jr. is not maneuverable enough as a character to get around his PK Fire easily, (or zair,) and then when we finally get in, his boxing game is far superior to ours with that excellent down-tilt and jab, meaning he can just force us back enough to the point where we have to respect PK Fire again. Hard to approach him from the air because of how disjointed Up-Tilt is, (and how fast he can do it oos,) and Lucas gets stock cap kill throws while Bowser Jr. doesn't get anything of the sort, so one slip up after we approach and we've been grabbed and chucked to our demise. This MU is not fun to play or to watch, as the optimal way for Lucas to play it is to never let Jr. approach at all.



They also wall us out annoyingly, but this MU isn't as bad because they aren't as maneuverable as Lucas and lack good stock cap throws. In return, they have Levin Sword, making aerial exchanges a riskier proposal than they normally would be. At least their recovery is easier to intercept.



WHY CAN'T I APPROACH YOU
STOP THROWING CARROTS AT ME

What's your main's most optimal playing style and why?

Have you guys ever watched Art of Roy by Izaw? It's an amazing video if you're looking to learn more about that character's playstyle and strengths, completely changed my viewpoint on him. Anyway, during that video, Izaw states this about Roy:

And I feel that quote also applies to Bowser Jr. as well. This character pretty much lacks all semblance of a grab/throw game, so the optimal way to play this character is exploit disjoints and pressure them just outside their effective range until they crack, where you can get strong juggles off on them and force them offstage so you may intercept their recovery. Any character with a free disadvantage state and strong recovery, (Sheik, ZSS, Bayonetta,) takes away Bowser Jr.'s main selling point as a character, and any character who can pressure him to saty outside of "sword" range, (Rosalina, Villager, aforementioned Lucas,) can also make life hell for him.

What area(s) could mains of your character improve in to push their meta further and make them be seen as a better individual on the roster?

Well, people playing with and against the character at all is a start, but in terms of Jr.'s meta itself, learning how to take advantage of his various ways to mix up his approach is muy importante to the success of the character. If he can't approach, then he can't do jack, as Cannonball is near-useless and Mechakoopa is only threatening when stacked on top of other offensive pressure.

What matchups or strategies could stop your main from advancing in the meta?

, , and are harder matchups for us than , , and , so if zoners get more popular in the meta, that would be difficult for Jr. to handle. In addition, I manage to get away with a lot more than I should be able to with this character simply because lack of knowledge, (i.e. people thinking they've forced me to approach through the air when they reflect my walking mechakoopa when I can simply side-b through it and punish their anti-air attempt, get free damage on people attempting to punish a whiffed F-Smash even though that move has basically no ending lag, people refusing to respect side-b causing me to get a free kill confirm on them at aroudn 100% for it, etc.)

Good character to secondary/pocket with your main?

Well has been working out well for me so far, as a lot of Jr.'s gameplan and Mewtwo's gameplan overlap, but Mewtwo maintains good or at least even MUs against characters like and that normally give us hell due to his stronger pokes, mobility, strogn projectile, and stock cap throw.

A few little known facts about your main that people get caught up on? Tricks they have, things you shouldn't try to punish, etc

Jr. has a kill confirm on the entire cast from around 90-110% with his side-b, so just respect the move and shield around that range. I guarantee you whatever punish you might eat otherwise is not as bad as losing your stock. As I've stated already, Forward Smash is really hard to punish, so don't make any strong commitments or YOU will eat the punish instead, (safe pokes or a non-comittal projectile are your best bet.) Dair also has very little lag when it connects on a shield, so if you don't go for a fast oos punish you may end up getting punished in return.

Thanks for taking the time out of you day to read all this.

 

[blackghost]

Just curious but I've heard that if you trigger WT with dtilt you can buffer TSRK and go right though anything bayo might throw out. Is this true? Aside from that I agree with your statment

ive had that happen to me as a bayo main but the downside is even if ryu gets the TSRK out he still is a free punish when he lands. but i would still do it just to force the bayo player to execute a punish on the landing.

 

[Guido65]

• 3-5 good characters(top half of the cast) your main does well against?
• 5 bad/mediocre characters(bottom half of the cast) does your main do worse than expected or poorly against?
• What's your main's most optimal playing style and why?
• What area(s) could mains of your character improve in to push their meta further and make them be seen as a better individual on the roster?
• What matchups or strategies could stop your main from advancing in the meta?
• Good character to secondary/pocket with your main?
• A few little known facts about your main that people get caught up on? Tricks they have, things you shouldn't try to punish, etc]

• is a fairly good mu for link(this is one of the MU's he does better in then toon link). One of the main reason link does better in this mu is his much better landing options because of a very good fast fall speed much lower landing lag on aerials besides dair and uair which have similar landing lag numbers.is also one of the only characters capable of challenging clouds up and down air.

  Link wins the vertical aerial game. Link's Uair will beat Cloud's Dair, and Cloud's Uair can at best trade with Link's Dair if he takes it head on. The only way for Cloud's Uair to beat Link's Dair is from the side at the end of Cloud's sword such that Link's Dair hitbox cannot reach Cloud's hand, but then we're no longer talking about a strictly vertical contest anymore. Cloud will have to outmaneuver Link in the air or swing first rather than directly challenge him to a vertical range/disjoint contest.

  We also have a very strong edgeguarding game with moves such as fair nair and dair.
  
• is another one of his best top tier mu's. It was discussed a while ago in this thread
  

  Link and Tink are functionally different characters in this matchup. Link's damage output is not wholly tethered to Bomb confirms, his grab and Zair are longer, Link Ftilt is more potent in the ground game, he's certainly living longer, Link's fastfall helps in air to ground positioning a lot better than Tink's does, and Link kills raw earlier.
  
  Mewtwo is constantly playing footsies with Link because the Mewtwo knows that Link will get a hit in if he slightly misspaces, and those hits rack up with the mighty power of Link's Master Sword. With Tink, the threat level is not as blatant.

  Another thing is jab jab upsmash is much easier on mewtwo then on other characters due to his slow double jump.
  
  
• is a much better matchup for us in practice then it is in theory(MJG put this mu in his chart as "Throw them off stage and laugh or relentlessly sling shot them. Have fun.").That statement is incredibly false as after looking back at T vs Ranai T never died from getting gimped(He was close to being gimped) and the times he did die were from upsmash at around 143% and an up tilt at around 116%(on smashville). The good things in this mu is our onstage game and walk are good since hylian shield can stop lloids and slingshots.Another relevant asset is pocket is fairly irrelevant in this mu since even if a bomb does get pocketed link can still get another one out.

• 5 bad/mediocre characters(bottom half of the cast) does your main do worse than expected or poorly against?

does fairly well vs us despite being incredibly easy to edgeguard for link. The main reason why is that we can't shieldgrab him which can makes little mac's shield pressure much better as our other oos options while not bad are high risk/high reward so even though they're not that slow and they're pretty strong they're still a bit risky to attempt to punish him with an oos move.Finally the way you have to play against little mac is incredibly lame.
for similar reasons to little mac minus the having to play incredibly lame part.
does worse then mario vs us but he still does quite well vs us due to his very strong punish game good,cqc,and his kill confirm which is very good vs fast fallers such as link. Not only that but like mario he also can reflect our projectiles so they don't matter as much but doc does worse vs swordies then mario.

• What's your main's most optimal playing style and why?

The most optimal way to play is defensively as he doesn't have the speed to play offensively but he has the kit to play a good defensive game.He's also difficult to approach because of his range. Our projectiles are mostly for just making people approach so we can punish it, rather than doing most of the damage themselves. Projectiles are still important but link isn't as reliant on them as toon link is due to better normals. Finally his kit is all about forcing opponents to come to him.

• What area(s) could mains of your character improve in to push their meta further and make them be seen as a better individual on the roster?

Being less predictable against gravitational pull and using more forward tilts vs luma since forward tilt is a pretty solid move at killing him. Also using more zair's since thats very useful vs rosa. Using more soft thrown bombs for stage control as well.

• What matchups or strategies could stop your main from advancing in the meta?

and are our worst mu's both at 60:40 range. The main reasons are that we can struggle to get them off us once they get in and both have strong ledgetrapping vs our meh ledge options. Fox in particular is more problematic as his up tilt strings are very good due to link's physics but up air is less effective then it would be because of down air which is much larger then it looks.

• Good character to secondary/pocket with your main?

is a good secondary/pocket for link as he does well vs his 2 worst matchups and is a pretty easy character to play, although then you may become a bit weaker to diddy. also works if you want to cover fox,mario, and diddy kong. and like mewtwo doesn't really require much investment to learn making him another very good pocket for link.

• A few little known facts about your main that people get caught up on? Tricks they have, things you shouldn't try to punish, etc]

One thing people really don't know is that link's reverse up b is a very strong punish if the opponent messes up an edgeguard and makes edgeguarding link much riskier then you'd think and his recovery is well covered, but that's mostly because link's poorly viewed stigma from previous games where his recovery was awful in like smash 64 and brawl.

 

[Deleted member]

I'd like to ask you and everyone in this thread a few things. Maybe that'll be the spark of discussion we need. Don't have to answer all the questions, but passing along this sort of information has to be amazing for the competitive community. If you're unsure on one of the questions, DO NOT answer it without saying you're uncertain.

• 3-5 good characters(top half of the cast) your main does well against?
• 5 bad/mediocre characters(bottom half of the cast) does your main do worse than expected or poorly against?
• What's your main's most optimal playing style and why?
• What area(s) could mains of your character improve in to push their meta further and make them be seen as a better individual on the roster?
• What matchups or strategies could stop your main from advancing in the meta?
• Good character to secondary/pocket with your main?
• A few little known facts about your main that people get caught up on? Tricks they have, things you shouldn't try to punish, etc

etc etc.
Maybe this way there would be less johns about matchup inexperience, less low tiers winning off jank, and more low/mid tiers winning because they can more easily exploit the issues all high and top tier characters have.
I'll even make an example for my main

Spoiler: Sheik

Edit: Got owned by the daily 4 a.m checkup and this part didn't get saved. It's a shame. Was a lot of data.

Now it's Shulk time!

im sorry

Spoiler: 5 Good Characters Shulk Does Well Against

Shulk does fairly well against Peach, all things considered. The biggest boon in this matchup is obviously his massive disjoint. Peach is a character who doesn't like dealing with sword characters in general ( being the main suspects), and even with Shulk's lrame data it's his movement that makes him be able to contest her in neutral.

Utilt is a very good move for anti-airing her approaches with float and if Shulk makes smart use of retreating FHAC fair and well-spaced nairs and bairs it's very frustrating for her to get in. It's also another one of the matchups where use of Smash Art is viable due to her floatiness/low weight and Shulk being able to go out to edgeguard her, but Jump could be used in that case. Her shield pressure isn't a huge threat to him either thanks to Shield Art increasing the health of his shield so strongly. It's not a commonly played matchup at high level since both characters are quite rare, but this is a set from Smash Factor 5 showcasing it:

This is an unexpectedly snowbally matchup, but it's straight up even or could be argued to be slightly in Shulk's favor. Moreso the latter, but either works. Nicko has a winning tournament record against Mr. ConCon, and had a very close set with Elegant at Abadango Saga (losing last stock, last hit, 3-2) who ended up eliminating him.

Luigi, like Peach, is another character that also doesn't like disjoints. His crummy air speed, traction and range being the main factors. Buster Art is the bane to Luigi's existence, especially since bair in the Art does so much shield pushback and makes it hard for Luigi to approach Shulk if he spaces them well. Shulk is adept at edgeguarding Luigi, even if he goes to recovery low with Cyclone. The back hit of fair stage spikes.

Although, Luigi does very good at exploiting Shulk's disadvantage state. If you get grabbed by him, say your prayers. Shield Art can actually help Shulk escape some of his combos at mid percent but it's still not fun to go through. Shulk's lack of a lenient ledgesnap (Air Slash is perfectly capable of ledge snapping like other recoveries but it requires proper timing and it's silly to expect a Shulk to get it everytime) also hurts him offstage, as he can be Cyclone gimped or down taunted if he doesn't snap the ledge or recover high. Overall if Shulk keeps his advantage in neutral it can be hard for Luigi to come back, but when it does the matchup becomes surprisingly volatile.



Over recent times I have definitely felt like Shulk might have an even matchup against Mewtwo or only lose it slightly at the very worst.

Nicko always goes neck to neck against Rich Brown at FAD weeklies, even clutching it out and winning some sets. Brwon has also said on record he believes the matchup is even. He almost beat Abadango at EVO this year as well, and a Japanese Shulk by the name of Kurage who attended Nexus 2 had a nail-bitingly close set against Deathorse, the best Mewtwo in Canada. Speed and Jump are important af in this matchup as Shulk needs the movement to catch up with how fast and slippery Mewtwo is overall.

Like Luigi (man, all these characters I've mentioned have a similar attribute that Shulk can abuse huh?), his poor traction, it being the second-worst in the game is also an issue due to how effective Shulk's pressure game is with Buster, even moreso with Mewtwo's mediocre ledge getup options. He also dies rather early to Shulk's throws in Smash Art and his up tilt. Smash utilt is an incredibly good anti-air for covering Mewtwo's landing and has explosive kill power, great reward off predicting something such as an airdodge or him using Confusion in the air. There is also the fact that Shield Shulk can airdodge out of his forward throw Shadow Balls and punish any way he wants.

Shulk still has to deal with Mewtwo having the superior neutral and being fearful of his edgeguarding game, and althought Mewtwo can choose to camp him out in Shield having it matters a lot in the MU especially near kill percent. He has to play patient against Mewtwo and exploit openings the best he can or he gets blown up, especially with how awful his disadvantage is in Buster or Smash.



Even though Ness has dropped off hard in recent times most people still consider him to be upper-mid or so which is why he's here. Again the main reason Shulk does well here is the large range difference. Ness' mobility stats all range from poor to simply average, which is another thing Shulk can exploit if he plays the retreating game with his aerials and doesn't approach Ness.

The elephant in the room is how hard Shulk can exploit Ness' recovery. Shulk having a huge fair and bair offstage he can wave around with isn't fun for Ness to challenge, and PK Thunder 2 can be easily 2-framed by fsmash. Vision is iffy since the aerial hitbox lacks vertical range which makes it inconsistent for killing Ness offstage unlike other counters, but Shulk most of the time can hit him enough until he's out of range from the ledge especially if he is in Jump Art. Shulk can also escape Ness' dthrow bread and butters while in Shield Art.



I made a writeup here as to why Shulk slightly wins the Tink matchup.

As a side note I believe he does decent against but that will be for another time (Lucario being even/slight Shulk adv., Olimar slight Shulk adv., and Yoshi even). Only five chars after all and this post is getting overlong as is.

Spoiler: Bad/Mediocre Characters Shulk Underperforms Against

Ughhhhhh this matchup sucks. Even though Shulk has a field day with Mac offstage, it's hard to get Mac into disadvantage in the first place. Shulk has little room to contest Mac's neutral at all and even struggles to land against him even with Speed or Jump. His punish game against Shulk is insane. If you want a decent chance in winning this matchup you're just going to have to camp him out.


Moreso a personal kryptonite, but Darkwolf (the best Shulk in the world aside Nicko) switches off to in this matchup against Holy even. Plain Yogurt explained in detail why I don't like this matchup, so you can read his explanation. Hell he did the same with Mac, RIP me.

For the most part Shulk does very well against a lot of low tiers and a chunk of mid tier, which is why I don't have much to say here.

Spoiler: Shulk's Most Optimal Playing Style

There is no "optimal" way to play Shulk. The character is a dynamic zoner, and even then I'd struggle to call him that because the Arts make him such a wildcard. When Artless the character is bogged down by a lot of the issues (poor mobility/movement options & so-so damage output being the main ones) so adaptability with the Arts and knowing what all they all grant and limit is very important when playing this character.

Space your aerials very well on shield and don't overextend. Overextending as Shulk hurts him a great amount since his physics make him very susceptible to combos, this is the most important thing you should avoid especially since Shulk has such sluggish moves. There is no set way to play with each of the Arts either, free your mind. Being a swordfighter he is also a very potent edgeguarder, so use that to the fullest! If you also want to go that far, Shulk is very good at timing out with Speed and Jump. It's an important part of him I'm still confused at Shulk mains not willing to exploit.

Spoiler: What Shulk mains could do to push his meta and overall perception

Focus less on his advanced techniques. FUNDAMENTALS AND NEUTRAL COME FIRST.

Pushing his movement, timeout ability, adept use of Monado Purge for kills, and edgeguarding are the main things they should focus on. Nicko, Darkwolf and Masha being able to travel around America consistently would also do wonders considering all three perform very well in their regions or if they happen to attend large events.

Spoiler: Matchups/Strategies That Can Stop Shulk's Metagame Advancement

are pretty much always never going to let Shulk be any better than low-mid. They're such awful matchups and it doesn't help both characters are so common throughout all levels of play. He has other bad matchups with characters like but at least the fifth is quite rare.

There's not many strategies that can stop Shulk's meta from furthering, at least in my opinion.

Spoiler: Good Secondaries/Pockets for Shulk

. Nicko does it and almost beat Zenyou with him. You can do it too. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

I'm obviously kidding.

is an amazing secondary for Shulk. The only matchup the two don't properly cover is practically . Mewtwo's strong neutral, mobility, zoning and pressure deal with aggressive characters Shulk doesn't like dealing with or ones that can just wall him out, such as .

is a solid pick as a pocket. Him doing well against Shulk's two absolute worst matchups is very, very nice. A good amount of Luigi's own bad matchups are covered well by Shulk in turn.

is a no brainer. He's a lot less intensive to play than Shulk and has a very solid matchup spread all around.

Spoiler: Shulk Facts & Tricks

There's some nice stuff Shulk has. I'm not a tech heavy Shulk player but I like doing stuff like this sometimes.

- Buster Art MALLC bair into fsmash breaks a full shield.

- Buster bair is actually busted if well-spaced. Don't try to punish it or you're eating a lot of shield damage or simply 17%.

- Tremendo Dude discovered a neat dthrow to dair lock that can be done in Buster a few weeks ago. Can kill surprisingly early.

- It's a common misconception that Shulk has no autocancel aerials. Forward air autocancels out of a non-fastfalled fullhop, which is neato. You can also act out of fair out of a SH in Jump Art and nair to get 10 frames of landing lag instead.

- Up smash covers all ledge options.

- Air Slash is a low-key scary move. The move has more range than his bloody forward air. It comes out frame 10, is great for finishing an aerial combo and even 2-framing due to the move having hitboxes at the beginning that slightly reach below Shulk. Nair to Air Slash is also a decent mixup in Speed and Jump Art for kills, and Jump Art uthrow into Air Slash is true! There's a chart of percent ranges for it here.

- Shulk's tournament results are actually pretty okay.

- His 50/50, Monado Purge, is able to catch airdodges. If you don't want to uair, you can punish that with bair or even Back Slash. There is a full chart with percent ranges and whatnot here. There are five different ways to perform the 50/50, although Purge outright does not work on some characters. have especially wide percent ranges.

- Vision Sliding is actually a really neat and relevant tech that makes Shulk's reward off the move even greater. It allows you to fade back from your opponent to avoid punishment or even advance towards them after performing Vision and punish them afterwards (i.e. Vision Sliding forward into an Air Slash near the ledge for a potential kill).

And I guess that's it. Thank you all very much for taking the time to read all this, if you bothered to. Have an awesome night.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

What weaknesses? Because it's not recovery.

well like it or not, it is one of his flaws. He also has problems with zoning, dtilt is punishable on hit at lower percents, low overall damage output, and if people learn to SDI up smash he could have a huge problem with killing

 

[Tizio Random]

I like this game. I'll try to do my best!

• 3-5 good characters(top half of the cast) your main does well against?

Spoiler

Every character above considered in the official tier list is eligible.

: Ryu suffers from being easily outcamped and Rosalina, being a defensive powerhouse, is no exception. Ryu is forced to approach has a hard time doing it. Hadouken is eaten or neutralized by GP and jumping in is an extremely committal choice. Focus Attack, while Luma is present, is pratically useless as almost every attack has two hitboxes. It can be good to escape some juggle pressure, tho. Edgeguard is rough when Ryu has to rely on Tatsumaki and upb can be intercepted but it is easier said than done because it has a big hitbox. Although this match is an uphill battle for the world warrior, if a smart Ryu can pass the "Luma zone" Rosalina can eat some nasty combos and setups for kills. I would say this is a 6:4 match-up.

: Diddy is a strange match-up, often discussed, but I think we have the upper hand in this one. First and foremost, banana is tricky. GP messes up the banana gameplan really hard, giving an easy access to the best counterplay against Diddy. Whether the Diddy player uses the banana sparingly and incredibly smart or he doesn't use it at all. Once Diddy is offstage, the situation could be really grim. Sideb is easy to intercept with well timed bair or nair and barrel recovery, while giving potential mixups, is easily covered with any lingering hitbox near the ledge, both Luma and Rosa dair are the best case. However Diddy doesn't have a hard time dealing with Luma and his consistency in killing him with sideb and dtilt>dsmash make this matchup 6:4 at worst.

: Fox is rising recently so talking about this match-up is mandatory. While Fox is onstage he has great pressure over Rosa, he has a big problem in being one of the two character (the other being Puff) to not have a move that sends Luma into tumble aisde from his dair that is not very reliable. Fox is also eaten alive by rapid jab and uair strings being the fast faller he is. But the biggest problem is that the instant Fox is forced to recover, things starts to get very bad. Sideb is always the best option because upb is easily interceptable and can be stuffed by dair during its long startup ending stocks quickly. It is not a Ness level of bad situation offstage but it isn't good, either. This match-up is in the line of a probable 6:4.

• 5 bad/mediocre characters(bottom half of the cast) does your main do worse than expected or poorly against?

Spoiler

As I said before, every character below is eligible.

: Since I think TheReflexWonder summed up this match-up perfectly I will simply copy and paste what he said:

Neither character can approach well, which means you charge Waft for free. Luma's existence means Waft often lingers for a long time, and Rosa has a lot of trouble dealing with Wario edgeguarding.

Wario's tools are well-suited for dealing with Luma: a great recovery/airdodge avoids edge traps, Dash Attack and N-Air send Luma high every time, Chomp on Rosa immobilizes Luma and sets it up for a free F-Tilt after release, grounded unmanned Bike must be jumped over or it hits Luma at no risk to Wario (she cannot Gravitational Pull it while it is moving even if Wario is not on it). It's really boring, but Wario has a lot of control and pressure through Waft.

: As explain earlier by Plain Yogurt, Shulk outranges Rosa and buster art is amazing. Luma is quite easy to knocked out and recovering is not that problematic (seriously the range on the monado is absurd, if you can mixup well it is challenging to gimp Shulk).

: This is controversial but I'm convinced that unless you have some platforms where you can hide and juggle him hard this match-up is hell. Link on FD is probably my worst match-up, full stop. Really hard to get in and as soon you reach him you are stuffed with many projectiles (you can't GP'd bombs, so...) and hitboxes that sends you fly. You're always at the risk of some random dash attack or upsmash that can kill you as soon as 80% with rage.

: Once he is offstage this is easy but like his for Glory cousin above, he is a nightmare on FD. He gets rid of Luma with jab/ftilt and has crazy KO power. He also can easily pass behind the Luma zone with many of his smashes and super armor help greatly.

: This is not a fun match-up for Zelda but it isn't that bad as someone can think. Din's fire is amazing because it instakill Luma if near the ledge and her upb is good because she can't be gimped while giving access to a move that punish many misspaced attacks.

• What's your main's most optimal playing style and why?

Spoiler

Rosalina is a tag team that is optimally played in a patient and defensive way. However, I think that more often than not Luma is barely consider an extension and a meat than a full fledge character with particular properties. I think many styles can be approached as soon as people realize that potential of different styles at the same time with Rosa and Luma.

• What area(s) could mains of your character improve in to push their meta further and make them be seen as a better individual on the roster?

Spoiler

As said before, I don't think Luma and Rosa are explored enough when separated and I think this kind of combos and setups are still an uncharted territory. One thing I also don't see often is edgeguarding with falling nair near the ledge. It's a really good setup and should be used more often as it covers many directions.
To conclude, while I think her ATs are used correctly I think that Lunar landing could be used more for opening and setting traps. Dabuz and falln were experimenting greatly on this, I remember some sick setups around the Pound period. There are some kill confirms like second hit of falling Luma nair (that is mouthful lol)>shield>usmash OoS that are so safe and rewarding that I think they are not explored enough.

• What matchups or strategies could stop your main from advancing in the meta?

Spoiler

Luma counterplay. Seriously. Luma is everything for Rosa. I think Esam posted a video regarding the fact that you could just kill Luma mid combo as soon as he respawn, making RosaLuma mains' life hell. He is right, guys. As a low level player that is still learning and absorbing every bit of information he can, I find being inconsistent at keeping Luma alive one of, if not the, biggest struggle: if you can consistently kill Luma at every occasion you have, we are sitting ducks.

• Good character to secondary/pocket with your main?

Spoiler

is the go-to, no doubt. Really good against , , and can do his job against . I use as my second main and I use him for my worst match-ups ( on FD, , , etc.) and I can say I'm good with him. But in general I think every character that is not , or is good for a secondary for Rosa.

• A few little known facts about your main that people get caught up on? Tricks they have, things you shouldn't try to punish, etc

Spoiler

Remember that Rosalina's fastest aerial without Luma is frame 8. And jab (arguably her best move with Luma) is still frame 8. Her fastest move as SoRo is her dtilt at frame 5 (bar GP at 2) so challenge her with fast aerials when Lumaless. And, about GP, bait it like hell. We like this move and range is enormous (it's the largest move in the game) but we are vulnerable during it. Be smart, projectile users mains.
Last but not least: try to put her at the edge of the stage and hit Luma with a, possibly safe, move that sends him in tumble. You will probably get punished but it's worth to get the star knocked out as soon as possible.

EDIT: Thank you for the likes, guys, I'm glad you appreciated this badly written and incomplete post lol
I added some paragraphs that I didn't write last night on some parts. Sorry if the second answer is very concise but I'm not very good at explaining things about characters I don't know very well and many of my opinions come from my personal experience in playing and observing the game.

 

[Nah]

He also has problems with zoning

y'know I've heard people say this several times before, but I never got why

why does struggle with zoning exactly?

like did I never get the memo or something

 

[FeelMeUp]

y'know I've heard people say this several times before, but I never got why

why does struggle with zoning exactly?

like did I never get the memo or something

• Many zoning tools such as Mega Man pellets or Sheik needles destroy banana while others, like TL's bombs, flat out beat it if thrown at the same time
• He doesn't have a very high damage output for combos so his reward is neutered by the opponent's chip damage. If a character doesn't have to approach him he struggles a lot with abusing his godlike OoS game.
• His 2 main aerials don't start combos or link to grab outside of very specific percents and situations(i.e fair starts double/triple/quadruple fair links sometimes but that's it)
• Monkey Flip is instantly shut down by most good projectiles.
• His airspeed sucks ass so aerial approaches are extremely linear and generally are not an option.
• His kill options all stem from being right next to someone or grabbing them while other zoners can either outright kill off their projectiles(M2, Samus, etc) or combo into kills with them(Sheik, MM, DH)
• Although it might seem like it isn't the case, his run speed actually isn't amazing and is around Bowser tier, so if you commit to camping him from a distance he has trouble getting in.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

And there are 5 more characters that are said to do very well against Fox.

Lol @ Little Mac doing well against Fox. Totally not one of his works match ups kappa.

well like it or not, it is one of his flaws. He also has problems with zoning, dtilt is punishable on hit at lower percents, low overall damage output, and if people learn to SDI up smash he could have a huge problem with killing

Up tilt will prevent him from having huge killing issues. Sets him back like 17% at worst. I can't remember which tournament it was, it was a recent one, that ZeRo won but he took quite a few stocks with glide toss banana > up tilt. Up smash being possibly SDI-able doesn't really matter, Diddy still has an amazing neutral to allow him to easily land his consistent confirms.

 

[Luco]

Hey friends, ESL tournament top 8 is about to happen, featuring Ghost, Waveguider, myself and more, so if you're interested, check out twitch.tv/ESL_Australia so you can see such novelties like Lucas slightly losing the Cloud MU or the speed of Sonic / Falcon vs Greninja.

 

[Kofu]

Petition to let Australia name Smash terms, "Booze Cruise" is great.

Luco why do both of your commentators have the same bangs

 

[Molk]

Alright, i'll give this a shot. For now i'm only going to answer the first question and provide 4 matchups in the top half of the cast (going by the 4BR tier list here) that i feel like G&W performs well in. I might answer some more of the questions later if this post is well received, note that this is just my opinion and that it's likely that not every G&W main will agree with every character listed here.

3-5 good characters(top half of the cast) your main does well against?

Ness is a character i've been fairly confident against as G&W lately. The neutral against Ness in my personal opinion isn't particularly difficult at all, as long as G&W plays a sort of patient, bait and punish playstyle against Ness at least. G&W's disjoints are quite helpful here imo, as they allow G&W to challenge Ness's attacks in quite a few situations, as well as allow G&W to sort of space out Ness and keep him at a range where he won't be able to grab G&W easily, at least from my experience. PK Fire is easily avoidable and punishable in the neutral unless you overcommit, and even when you do, it's more than possible for G&W to either escape the PK Fire early with Up B, or possibly even bucket it on hit (although this leaves you open for a punish, which G&W does NOT want to eat, so i wouldn't exactly suggest doing this unless you're extremely confident it's worth the damage you'll be taking), which can instantly give G&W a (weak, but still a frame 2 kill option with a gigantic, lingering hitbox) bucket. G&W's strong advantage state allows him to easily keep up with Ness in terms of damage racking from my experience as well. However, one of the biggest things about this matchup is just how badly Ness gets destroyed offstage, G&W's edgeguarding in general is pretty strong due his great recovery, disjointed, lingering aerials/Up B, and reliable options for two framing, and he has some unique ways to easily and reliably gimp Ness in particular. If Ness is ever forced to Up B to get back onstage, all G&W has to do to gimp him most of the time is drop down next him and use the windbox of Uair or Up B to mess up Up B's trajectory, G&W is also capable of bucketing Up B, which of course instantly gimps Ness if G&W does it successfully. Even FOW has claimed that G&W performs well against Ness, even saying that G&W has the advantage in the matchup, which i currently agree with, although to be fair, that matchup chart is far from new, link below.

https://twitter.com/fowskate/status/702648520616988672



Another matchup i think G&W does well in is Pikachu. Just like Ness mentioned above, i feel like G&W's disjointed/lingering hitboxes are *very* helpful against Pikachu due to both Pikachu's relative lack of range compared to other characters, as well as their ability to limit Pikachu's ability to Quick Attack across the stage in fear of running into one of the hitboxes in question, which is further compounded by how much Quick Attack extends Pikachu's hurtbox. Outside of this, Bucket is another large asset in the matchup, as it limits Pikachu's ability to use both Thunder Jolt and Thunder, as misplacing a few of either is a death sentence for Pikachu, as it provides G&W with a very powerful move with almost instant startup, a decent amount of active frames, huge disjointed range, and multiple ways to combo into it, including out of Down Throw (although of course, the G&W player needs to consider if Pikachu can punish them for bucketing a projectile and whether or not the punish is worth it in that scenario). When it comes to Pikachu's disadvantage state, Quick Attack can be quite helpful for getting out of tough situations, but G&W still has some pretty reliable combos on Pikachu that can pack on a ton of damage from my experience, and Toot Toot's window both starts early and is pretty lenient. Something else to note is that because of G&W's great recovery, he also happens to be quite resistant to one of Pikachu's strongest aspects: his edgeguarding, which hurts Pikachu in the matchup even further. This opinion is shared by many Pikachu players i've come across as well, and even some notable ones such as ESAM and Rideae, with the former placing it as even in his newest matchup chart, and the latter actually placing it in a class of its own as Pikachu's *worst* matchup. Links to both matchup charts below.

Rideae: https://twitter.com/RideaeSmash/status/776178028300886021

ESAM: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CsQF7pkVUAA6gth.jpg



Falcon is another matchup i think G&W performs well in. The most notable thing about this matchup to me is just how badly Falcon gets destroyed in disadvantage in this matchup, because of his large size, fast falling speed, and complete lack of any effective string breakers, landing basically any combo starter on Falcon with G&W means a *massive* amount of damage, and he's quite easy for G&W to edgeguard as well due to the fact that he has a pretty linear recovery that only goes a mediocre amount of distance. Basically, whenever Falcon's in disadvantage in this matchup, he's in a lot of trouble, and he honestly doesn't have many good options to mitigate it. When it comes to the neutral, Falcon's speed can be a bit intimidating, but G&W has one notable thing that can take a lot of the pressure off, which is his crouch, which goes right under Falcon's threatening dashgrab. I know quite a few other G&W mains don't find the Falcon matchup to be difficult either, and notable Falcon mains such as Fatality have stated the same thing. Link below.

https://twitter.com/FatalityFalcon/status/765625182736318467



Lastly, i'm going to list Mario, which might be a bit more controversial. For a while i've felt that G&W performs pretty well in this matchup honestly for a few reasons. To start things off, i'll talk about one thing that's often talked about when talking about Mario's weaknesses, and that's his lack of range and limited amount of approach options, which can give him a bit of trouble getting in and make him struggle against disjointed hitboxes a little bit. G&W happens to possess a pretty nice amount of disjointed, lingering hitboxes in his kit, that he can use in the neutral withsome degree of safety, including Jab, Fair, and Bair. Alongside these disjointed hitboxes, G&W also has his monster of an Up Smash, which can easily tank through Mario's aerial approach options, reliably KO Mario below 100%, and even start combos on him at low percentages while also being very difficult to punish due to its low cooldown. Because of this combination, i've found that G&W is actually capable of walling Mario out pretty effectively. When Mario *does* get in, i've found that G&W is capable of mitigating the reward he gets off of a throw quite a bit, at least compared to other characters. G&W is a pretty light and floaty character with a pretty small hurtbox, which means he doesn't get comboed as hard as say, Cloud to begin with, and alongside that, he has the ability to Up B out of anything that isn't guaranteed because of a combination of an extremely quick (frame 2) windbox, and a somewhat fast to start period of intangibility (frame 5-13), in fact, the windbox comes out so quickly that G&W is actually capable of punishing Mario's Dair on hit if he doesn't have enough rage to make it link correctly! Mario is still able to get some good damage on G&W from his combos, but he's going to have to stick with combos that are completely guaranteed, and he's not going to get as much reward as he would on a lot of other characters. Meanwhile, G&W doesn't have too shabby of an advantage state himself, he can reliably start combos and strings with a decent portion of his moveset, he can juggle Mario effectively as well, and Toot Toot is capable of KOing Mario below 100% without rage. Mario has tools to escape some strings in Nair and Up B, but the former is capable of being Up Smashed in some situations if read and the latter is significantly riskier than G&W's Up B imo due to the fact that it leaves Mario helpless after use, unlike G&W's Up B, because of this, i feel like G&W is capable of keeping up with Mario when it comes to damage racking. All in all, i've always felt like G&W has the tools to compete with Mario, but idk, maybe that's just me.

EDIT: just realized i forgot to edit some parts of my post after i shifted Mario to the last character haha, whoops! If i refer to talking about Mario at any point in my thoughts on Ness/Pika/Falcon, it's because of that, although i think i caught everything.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Honestly I would also put down Sheik as a decent matchup. GW is one of the few characters with legitimate options against needles which is a huge deal in the neutral, he can rack up ~30 off of single grabs against Sheik, his recovery is hard to intercept, up b can break fair strings, his aerial weaving is good enough for him to land against her, and fair/bair are good ways to challenge Sheik in the air. No, I'm not saying its in his favor, but its definitely doable.

 

[Kofu]

Honestly I would also put down Sheik as a decent matchup. GW is one of the few characters with legitimate options against needles which is a huge deal in the neutral, he can rack up ~30 off of single grabs against Sheik, his recovery is hard to intercept, up b can break fair strings, his aerial weaving is good enough for him to land against her, and fair/bair are good ways to challenge Sheik in the air. No, I'm not saying its in his favor, but its definitely doable.

Crouching is a mediocre option against Needles (partially since his DTilt enlarges his hitbox back to normal) and she completely outboxes him. I could see it as a -1 but right now it's a -2 to me. He just has a really hard time getting in. In my experience Fire doesn't interrupt her strings as much as I would like, either.

 

[Das Koopa]

ESL and DAT Blastzone were this week's only pertinent tournies that I could find. The charts & the like will be up in a few days btw

 

[Y2Kay]

ESL and DAT Blastzone were this week's only pertinent tournies that I could find. The charts & the like will be up in a few days btw

What about Salty Arena Cup U #2?

There was a problem fetching the tweet

 

[Illusion.]

What about Salty Arena Cup U #2?

There was a problem fetching the tweet

How many entrants?

 

[Y2Kay]

How many entrants?

about 80 or so

 

[Game7a1]

ESL and DAT Blastzone were this week's only pertinent tournies that I could find. The charts & the like will be up in a few days btw

I wrote down information about the Smash on the Hill Arcadian, which reached 189 singles entrants, on your project thread. Does that not count?

Crouching is a mediocre option against Needles (partially since his DTilt enlarges his hitbox back to normal) and she completely outboxes him. I could see it as a -1 but right now it's a -2 to me. He just has a really hard time getting in. In my experience Fire doesn't interrupt her strings as much as I would like, either.

There are other options to do when crouching other than D-Tilt. Jab, F-Tilt, UpTilt (if you really wanted to for some odd reason), and D-Smash are possible (if you use Tilt Stick and A+B Smash), as well as Shield and Grab, and since Shield is usable, Up-Smash is as well. Even then, Crouching's main use through Needle camping is to get closer to Sheik, not directly attack her.

 

[Mr. Johan]

• 3-5 good characters(top half of the cast) your main does well against?
• 5 bad/mediocre characters(bottom half of the cast) does your main do worse than expected or poorly against?
• What's your main's most optimal playing style and why?
• What area(s) could mains of your character improve in to push their meta further and make them be seen as a better individual on the roster?
• What matchups or strategies could stop your main from advancing in the meta?
• Good character to secondary/pocket with your main?
• A few little known facts about your main that people get caught up on? Tricks they have, things you shouldn't try to punish, etc

I'll bite.

• Sonic, Megaman, Toon Link, Villager, and Cloud are five I consider Robin to be adequately equipped to handle.
  • - People might think this is based on Dath's sets with the Sonics at Shine, but I've felt this one was one of Robin's best top-tier MUs for the longest time. Arcthunder and Thoron are the only projectiles other than Sheik's fully set Needles (and maybe ROB's Gyro and Zelda's Phantom Knight?) that can overpower the Spindash out of invincibility, meaning Sonic has to commit getting out of camping with it whenever one's loaded. Levin Fair is a good combatant against Sonic's approach game, thanks to the range and the autocancel on it; every Bair Sonic does has to be carefully aligned and timed to get through Fair. Every Spring escape can be immediately challenged with Arcthunder, Thoron, and Arcfire to ward off immediate AC Dair, which leaves Sonic's landing options very vulnerable out of Spring. It's a matchup where Robin wants to be moving just as much as Sonic is, and it's surprising how Robin can cover Sonic's options.
  • - Fair, Bair, and Books (iirc) can cleave right through Pellets and hit Megaman, and that's a vital tool to have. Close range pellets can also hurt Megaman too, as an activated Arcthunder from this kind of range can suck Megaman right into the move since the X on Arcthunder is instantly out on activation. So, Megaman's typical zoning has dangerous counterplay in the end in this MU. Rush Coil escape carries the same problems Spring escape does with respect to Levin aerials, only with more air mobility in exchange for a lack of a stall n' fall.
  • I've played this MU more times than I can count. Checkmate is the only grab combo that really works on Toon Link due to Dthrow being a weight-based throw, so Tink cannot naturally escape it with his double jump and floaty nature. Robin is equipped to cover any followup-options after a Bomb on shield: Levin Fair on the recatch, Levin Bair on the crossup/crossup double jump, Dash Attack on the fadeback recatch. Dash Attack can also cover fadeback Fair and Zair when timed correctly. Boomerang startup and Bomb pluck startup gets Thundered, Elthundered, and Thoroned. Hero's Shield does not block all of Thoron's hits - only projectile in the game that the Link shields cannot wholly block, matter of fact - and with Tink's floaty nature, even double jumping is a huge commitment with the threat of Thoron looming, making Bomb approaches and followups more constrained, which in turn leads to better Levin aerial zoning and punishment.
  • - Villager matchup really blows when Robin's offstage, but Villager has to get him there first. Approaching slingshot gets Levin Fair'd, retreating slingshot sacrifices stage control. Lloid Rocket can be Thoron'd on reaction to catch him in the endlag, so Robin can win the camping game for a while. On the other hand, Robin can harass an offstage Villager adequately enough, surprisingly. Arcfire is the "you are not allowed to be here" button, and Villager on the ledge is no exception. He is required to make a move off that ledge when that pillar is up, and options can be covered from there. And, while luck based, Arcfire can also be lit up on the balloon as it passes through the stage, making a falling wall of fire that covers a ledge roll preemptively done to avoid the Arcfire in the first place. As far as offstage itself, Levin Fair and Uair's arc swings allow Robin to keep himself at a position to appropriately punish all of Villager's aerials since all four of them are primarily in the four cardinal directions. Levin Fair bats him right out of Lloid Rocket as well as right through it, and Elwind harasses a Villager already committed to Balloon Trip. A matchup where Villager's claims to fame can be paid back in kind.
  • - This one may just be me being bold, admittedly. Levin Fair autocancels keep Nairs and Dairs at bay, and a Cloud at disadvantage, Limit or not, is far easier to negotiate than a Cloud who's on his own tempo. Limit Cross Slash can be punished out of shield with Dtilt and immediately set pace. But most of all, Cloud just has to respect Robin at all times thanks to Arcthunder. Arcthunder can convert into Dair for that awkward default horizontal angle, with all the power of Levin Dair's 20 BKB/100 KBG, aka Ganon's, spike hit backing it up. A Cloud that is hit by Arcthunder at anywhere further than point-blank at 40% and higher should be an absolutely dead Cloud, no exceptions. Even with Limit, since a double jump is needed to get air momentum back under control, leaving Cloud with either the deepest or the earliest of Limit Climhazzards, both of which can be Elspiked. With that in mind, with an Arcthunder loaded, Cloud has to play absolutely perfectly, lest he get hit by a Frame 11 projectile on whiff that Dair and Bair suck him into, and ensures death. It's that much of a game-changer if Arcthunder connects. Every character gets hit hard by this kind of Dair, but Cloud's one of those that has to accept his fate after the fact.
• Game and Watch, Little Mac, Charizard, Link, and Luigi
  • - Dtilt, Dash Attack, and Usmash are reliable checks to both types of Levin Fair spacing, leaving Robin in quite a predicament if Fair whiffs. And Game and Watch can maneuver through Fair spacing naturally on top of that with his own Bair and aerial drift. Arcthunder and Arcfire traps are nullified by Bucket (though the Oil Panic afterward is not particularly powerful from these two moves alone), leaving the tomes themselves to be Robin's best means of long range game against him when the Bucket is not full. And his aerials are perfect for catching Robin out of Elwind recovery no matter how hard Robin drifts the move. Certainly doable - a Fair string alone converts to half of GWs stock to get ready for Checkmate, but GW has the means to keep Robin honest and stuff his zoning out in all manners.
  • - Jab's a pain, Ftilt's a pain, Utilt's a pain, Fsmash shield pushback's a pain, surprise Side B's a pain, Dsmash on recovery's a pain, stop the ride, I want off this pain train.
  • - I'm biased due to Chuck Nasty just being the best Charizard right now, but Charizard's speedy enough to get through Robin's typical zoning. Robin's too slow to get through retreating Flamethrowers when Zard is hit back by a hit and is DIing out from it so he can't keep pressing on, Jab and grab are nuts, Fair is long enough to contest Levin Fair, and recovering against Flamethrower absolutely blows. Charizard is completely capable of getting into advantage on Robin while easily getting out of disadvantage. Robins say they win this MU super easily, while I down another shot.
  • - Link's got the range to keep Robin honest compared to Toon Link. Pivot Ftilt is really, really good at warding off Levin Fair spacing and covering Robin's ledge options, Zair covers the spacing as well, and Link's KO power is right up there with Robin's. A matchup that can quickly snowball off one misstep.
  • - He just needs one powershield. Then the magic happens. Nothing much to say after that.
• Passive aggressive zoning is the way to go imo, just due to how Levin Fair and the Thunder spells work. They control a specific spacing that characters will often to have just jump through or shield through, and each come with their own dangers. The kill moves are going to come by eventually. Just gotta play calm and collected until then, without tunnel-visioning.
• Less Arcfire, more Ftilt, Thunder, and Dash Attack. Each can cover options faster than Arcfire would and excluding DA carry less commitment for. Recognize which option will best cover the situation. Also, Robin's slow, but he's not a statue. What speed he has can work, and other speed deficits can be handled with smart Thorons and Elthunder/Arcthunder followups.
• Picking Mario and legally marrying the A button.
• I think Sonic can cover bad matchups well, particularly Mario, Diddy, and Ryu.
• Levin Fair completely autocancels on a shorthop and puts Robin at neutral after the opponent has spotdodged or blocked it, letting Robin shield, Jab, or retreat, depending on the situation. Full hop approaches to avoid Levin Fair can be covered by Levin Uair, which trades less horizontal range for more vertical range and faster startup. As mentioned before, Arcthunder -> Dair is extremely powerful, capable of killing, outright, on the ledge at 45%, making ledge mastery an absolute must. Lastly, due to the last patch buffing Jab's knockback a bit, Jab mixups can be a surprise option on some characters. To put in perspective, from my own testing, a Robin that Jab 2's Zero Suit Samus at 80% has forced her to jump or Down B away, as no moves in her arsenal can hit Robin out of Jab 2 endlag because she was sent so high up from that Jab 2 and any attempts at trying otherwise gets dash grabbed/shieldgrabbed into Checkmate. It's a minimally-explored area of Robin's kit that I'm still working on finding things for.

 

[Das Koopa]

I wrote down information about the Smash on the Hill Arcadian, which reached 189 singles entrants, on your project thread. Does that not count?

My bad. I don't think I've ever mentioned this, but I don't like including Arcadians since the entire idea is only a lower skill threshold can play. I don't believe this represents the metagame at a either a regional, national, or multi-national basis, which is the purpose of the chart. What I may do is just put Arcadians separately in a results box since it's still good information either way.

What about Salty Arena Cup U #2?

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Thank you for pointing this out. Had no idea.

 

[Megamang]

Id need to do more labbing, but I feel strongly that Robin does well vs Ryu (disjoint, good projectiles, good ledge game, good pivot/retreating attack options... i underrate Ryu tons though) and horribly vs Megaman. So book and higher charge spells can go through pellets... but the idea is pellets make it hard to do those things. With no threatening OoS to speak of, ill be dancing on your shield with nair pellets all day, fading back to pressure with them. There will be tons of metal blade, both z dropped to destroy your shield or do 20 damage, or to chuck to confirm into bair (which can OoS punish pretty much everything Robin has).

Excluding thoron, higher tier spells get robbed by pellets. A single pellet 'detonates' arcthunder, making it a non threat except in cqc and landing traps. Mega can avoid those quite well with rush, since i can reland on it while firing off a hitbox of my choosing to protect me while getting all my jumps and rush back.

Offstage... my air accel and top speed is better, how do you plan to avoid bair and nair, dair below stage, along with leafstooling, zdrop metal blades... all of which let me land back on the stage and set up traps.


Idk, in this MU im right up on Robin most of the game. Pellets are extremely good at poking you when your spells have downtime, and they allow me to cover you in hitboxes and since its a rapid fire nair, its easy to move over and grab a book.

Speaking of which, mega is damn scary with book. I still have access to leaf shield, metal blade (b toss, but still decent), crash bomber (meh, but if you get stuck suddenly shield pressure and airdodge traps are coming)... these will all come, followed by book, followed by pellets.

Tall humanoid form means uair stuff works well, again poor OoS stuff helps here.


Idk, there is a "destroys megaman" checklist, and Robin is kinda the opposite. Better than it seems i guess depends on how it seems. Just a -1 would honestly surprise me lol.

Id need to lab it out more with a top robin, since Robin has a bit of a Lucina esque rep issue with more loyal fans than hardcore smash nerds. Though i personally think her design is genius. Id buff arcfire tons, reduce ammo, and call her perfect.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Robin can Jab/Grab after pellet #3 if Megaman keeps walking forward, Ftilt if he stops in place with pellet #3, and Fair/Uair if Rock makes #3 a Nair pellet. Stopping beforehand means he's taking a 30 frame commitment that Robin is equipped enough to exploit.

Megaman gets to do stuff on Robin if he gets in, just like anyone. Levin Fair and Thunder spells are dual-designed to deny them from getting in, and Megaman does not have the burst speed or the autocancel to make his way in and set up shop easily. Arcthunder will detonate up close pellets, but a little quirky thing is that Robin ducks his head during the release phase of the first three Thunders. That posture lets Robin duck under SH pellet, a Megaman staple with pellet 3, and clip Megaman's feet for damage and pushing Megaman back.

Megaman's not going to be pelleting perfectly every time, and in Robin's case, that one imperfect time is going to get punished and convert hard.

Offstage, it's a toss-up. Robin can push forward and fall back pretty hard with Elwind 1, so Hard Knuckle and Metal Blade attempts will be hard to align properly. If Megaman jumps out there to catch Robin on a suspected airdodge with Nair and Bair, an early Elwind will get him right over it, and then Megaman has to reverse course and get back onstage to properly intercept.

 

[Deleted member 269706]

The actual metagame is what keeps Ryu from advancing in the metagame.

Ryu only beats a Fox that doesnt know how to press the B button and doesnt know that Fox has a dtilt.

Care to expand on this? I would love to hear your idea of the match up?

 

[Megamang]

Mega shouldnt always or even often commit to pellet 3. And if they are hitting shield, he wont approach you with them. The last pellet is always a SH back if you are pelleting a shield, unless you are going in with pellets in which case it is a cross up nair.

True, you punish hard when you get in. But checkmate kills late, and i honestly think Robin is gonna take tons of damage from a uthrow or bthrow offstage since her landing options blow. Ftilt ftilt nair strings on landings, metal blade to bair on landing, leaf'd grabs... its all good at getting you offstage.

Next major i go to, ill post on the Robin boards and try to set up a bo7 or something. Of course this isnt to 'prove' anything, but id like to record data and share vods.

Robins around here switch to m2 vs mega ime

 

[Emblem Lord]

Pretty straight forward stuff.

Mike Tyson challenges you to a fist fight. Do you run at him and go man to man or do you come up with a plan and play around his strengths?

Too many people wanna go blow for blow with Ryu and wonder why they got handled.

Have a projectile? Use it. Afraid of u-tilt? Learn how to counter poke. These are valuable and vital fighting game concepts that are overlooked because often times they simply don't lead to MASSIVE reward, aren't flashy and runaway play has this huge stigma.

Stop being dumb and play to win.

 

[Kofu]

There are other options to do when crouching other than D-Tilt. Jab, F-Tilt, UpTilt (if you really wanted to for some odd reason), and D-Smash are possible (if you use Tilt Stick and A+B Smash), as well as Shield and Grab, and since Shield is usable, Up-Smash is as well. Even then, Crouching's main use through Needle camping is to get closer to Sheik, not directly attack her.

True, it's not a bad option and it's better than what a lot of characters have. Just getting through Needles means you have to deal with the rest of her options. Game & Watch's safety is also generally suspect, especially against a campy Sheik.

 

[FeelMeUp]

I don't think any character has a strong enough combination of survivability, data, and damage output to be able to straight up fight Ryu. Luigi is the closest that comes to mind but even that's iffy.
Definitely the best character when it comes to cqc scrap situations but there's no reason to do that against him.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I don't think any character has a strong enough combination of survivability, data, and damage output to be able to straight up fight Ryu. Luigi is the closest that comes to mind but even that's iffy.
Definitely the best character when it comes to cqc scrap situations but there's no reason to do that against him.

THIS!!!!!

Yes Ryu is the best in the scramble/scrap i.e close range situations where you need fast reliable tools to beat out your opponent with superior frame data in order to gain momentum. Sooooo...don't be in those situations. And ESPECIALLY do not base your gameplan around trying to win those situations vs Ryu.

Basically don't do what Larry Lurr does vs Ryu.

 

[Nu~]

THIS!!!!!

Yes Ryu is the best in the scramble/scrap i.e close range situations where you need fast reliable tools to beat out your opponent with superior frame data in order to gain momentum. Sooooo...don't be in those situations. And ESPECIALLY do not base your gameplan around trying to win those situations vs Ryu.

Basically don't do what Larry Lurr does vs Ryu.

Not even Little Mac can compete with ryu in cqc?

 

[DunnoBro]

Lastly, i'm going to list Mario, which might be a bit more controversial. For a while i've felt that G&W performs pretty well in this matchup honestly for a few reasons..

Considering Ally's loss to vanity, and even Anti almost losing to GIMR (as well as my own personal feelings on the MU) I think it's fair to say GnW does actually do well in the MU.

At this point, I don't think it should be controversial for people to think non-top tiers do well vs mario. (Hello Bowser, Luigi, Palutena)