Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

Das Koopa · Feb 7, 2017

JANUARY 2017 DATA ANALYSIS
Written by Das_Koopa/Barnard's Loop/Zero_Destroyer

Changes from previous month, using December's Top 16 weighted as the base:

Bayonetta +3.3%
Diddy Kong +1.9%
Duck Hunt +1.8%
Sheik +1.6%
Luigi +1.1%
Peach +1%
Lucario +0.9%
Cloud +0.8%
Marth +0.6%
Villager +0.4%
Rosalina & Luma +0.4%
Toon Link +0.3%
Mr. Game & Watch +0.2%
Captain Falcon +0.2%
Mewtwo +0.1%
Pikachu +0.1%
Meta Knight = 2.6%
Pit = 0.9%
Olimar = 1.2%
Mario -0.2%
Ryu -0.2%
Donkey Kong -0.3%
Ness -0.3%
Zero Suit Samus -0.4%
Bowser -0.5%
R.O.B. -0.6%
Fox -0.8%
Sonic -0.8%
Corrin -1.2%
Other -5.6%

Lotta huge changes, some unusual, some not. There's a trend of the highest tiers making significant gains, but a few had decreases - Fox, Sonic, ZSS, etc, while certain characters like Lucario and Peach had huge gains. I'll go over Duck Hunt briefly, but these are the main consequences are changing systems. It's more or less a reset button in certain areas.

PUPPERS

Duck Hunt had a staggering 1.8% increase from last month, marking the biggest low/low mid breakout among any character in recent history, likely due to GENESIS 4.

MEGA MAN/GRENINJA???

I don't know what happened here. This could be straggler 9th/13th place points no longer accumulating, but it's possible that multiple under-performances from Kameme is responsible for Mega Man's low numbers. A lot of Greninja's big mains may not have come out.

"OTHER" DECREASE

5.6% is a huge decrease. While I go over this briefly, I think this direct decrease in % relates to no longer counting 9th/13th at smaller regionals. Straggler points are usually mid/low tiers at lower skill pool events, and without those, the "other" category decreases.

DIFFERENCES FROM FORMER SYSTEM

The major difference between the old method and the merged system comes in the purging of 9-163in the majority of tournaments; in its place, a larger number of tournaments are used that carry a low number of entrants. This has resulted in the 9-13 staggering points go away, which may explain the reduced diversity in characters.

It's hard to stay what fully accounts for what; An entire top 64 was counted, entire sections are no longer used in tournies for the sake of relevance, and the number of tournaments will likely be doubled as time goes on. We'll have a better idea of what these big changes mean after another 1-2 months and how big certain events swayed the list.

DATABASE INTEGRATION INTO ORIONRANK

So I don't die from overwork trying to gather weeklies ever again, I intend to limit the tournaments I use to the ones in the database. As a result, I will be including pre-major weeklies, allowing me to use -important- weeklies while avoiding extraneous ones, putting a bigger emphasis on regional/national results for player, hopefully creating a more accurate rankings. Other changes will happen, but this is important. Exceptions will be made for invitationals. E.g. - Assuming 2GGC Championship in December 2017 is a 32-man invitational ala Capcom Cup, I will be using every set in the tournament.

DATABASE CRITERIA

As a result of integration, I'm generally limiting to tournaments I use to tournies where 2016 contenders attended with a few exceptions for lesser-known regions on occasion. I may sample these regions. After briefly speaking with a person involved with the Hawaii scene, for example, I will likely sample a Top 4 from one of their monthlies. This won't likely result in any major changes for the character ranking/database ranking and was a given to start with, but now you may see the odd tournament from the Middle East, Dubai, Hawaii, South America, etc. more often if they have enough of their PR in attendance.

OTHER SCORING METHODS

I will likely reset the long-term tracker for right now. I have all my 2016 files intact, but I will be starting over with what I use. I'll use the upper category system by March when even C3+ tournies exist. Right now there aren't enough for me to consider it.

REGION MAPS

The goal of this was to make the database more accessible and to strongly emphasize a mentality that treats Japan/Europe as several different regions instead of a unified area.

The primary changes this makes:

-Splitting Canada into "Western Canada" and "Eastern Canada". Yukon, Nunavut, and the North Territories were always latched onto Alaska as one pseudo-region until something comes up that might allow them to be better defined.
-Merging British Columbia into the Pacific Northwest due to the proximity of the Vancouver Metropolitan area with the Seattle Metropolitan Area leading to frequent crossover, namely with Canadian players from British Columbia playing in Washington and Oregon.
-Splitting "Japan" into 9 distinct regions. Kanto and Kansai are the primary regions where Umebura and Sumabato are hosted.
-Splitting "Europe" into 16 countries and an "Off-Region Europe", where all the blacked out countries are. Netherlands, Germany, and France appear to be the center point/height of the content's skill pool.

I have made the decision to not separate the Midwest into "Central Plains" and "Great Lakes" regions after the official region PR (that is exactly within the boundaries of my map) was released.

I don't know what to do with the Southern United States. Currently, Texas is not listed as its own region because its neighboring states to the north/east all generally attend Texas-area tournaments in Houston/DFW/etc. Arkansas, Oklahoma, Louisiana, and Texas all tend to attend big events together when it comes to state PRs. West Texas is put into the Southwest due to sheer distance from the major metro areas of the state, but the county lines aren't perfect since most western counties are desolate in general, let alone for Smash activity.

FULL RESULTS

Bayonetta: 162.5
Cloud: 142.5
Diddy Kong: 141
Sheik: 124.5
Fox: 86
Sonic: 77
Mario: 77
Mewtwo: 62
Rosalina & Luma: 60.5
Marth: 60
Zero Suit Samus: 52
Meta Knight: 45
Peach: 42.5
Captain Falcon: 40.5
Luigi: 40
Duck Hunt: 39
Ryu: 36.5
Lucario: 33.5
Villager: 31
Ness: 29
Pikachu: 28
Toon Link: 27
R.O.B.: 25
Donkey Kong: 25
Bowser: 24.5
Olimar: 20
Corrin: 18.5
Mr. Game & Watch: 17
Pit: 15.5
Robin: 13
Mega Man: 12
Link: 11
Wario: 10
Shulk: 10
Lucas: 9
Roy: 8.5
Ike: 8
Yoshi: 7.5
Greninja: 7.5
Lucina: 7.5
Wii Fit Trainer: 6.5
Pac-Man: 6
Little Mac: 6
Samus: 4.5
Palutena: 4
Charizard: 2

2016 RANKINGS: PGRV2 and ORIONRANK

Panda Global Rankings, Version 2:

http://www.ssbwiki.com/Panda_Global_Rankings
http://imgur.com/a/c4vzP (Top 50 in album)

http://panda.gg/articles/features/gaming/77/panda-global-rankings-v2-50-41
http://panda.gg/articles/features/Unknown/78/panda-global-rankings-v2-40-31
http://panda.gg/articles/news/Unknown/79/panda-global-rankings-v2-30-21
http://panda.gg/articles/news/No Category/80/panda-global-rankings-v2-20-11
http://panda.gg/articles/news/gaming/81/panda-global-rankings-v2-10-1

OrionRank 2016:

Somebody conveniently made a wiki page for my ranking, so all the details are here, with my full blog being sourced:

https://www.ssbwiki.com/OrionRank_2016

END STUFF

Methodology will be updated in a Google Doc soon-ish, likely by next month. Basic methodology is in "Results Thread".

Results threads:
https://smashboards.com/threads/tournament-placing-database-scoring-project.437773/

Previous month:
https://smashboards.com/threads/4br...ive-impressions.440784/page-215#post-21612436[/SPOILER]

Murlough · Feb 7, 2017

Nidtendofreak said:
Don't feel silly at all. Primarily because Bear admitted that a lot of top level players told them in private they didn't like the list. Which is most likely the only reason why they're doing this. Top level players not being happy = them eventually speaking out = hurts attendance of their tournaments.

If the top level players were overall fine or even just neutral on it, they wouldn't be touching the list even if the public polling was identical to what it is now. Seen it happen back in Brawl, that's how it works.

....which you (not just you obviously) should have already known that would happen. Especially when a member of theres is Bear. Many top players have stated multiple times how awesome Bear is.

There was no way they COULD have forced there ruleset, at least not for long. Yet people still felt the need to grab pitchforks and call anyone who disagreed with there subjective opinion idiots. Maybe this is pointless banter but boy that **** pissed me off.

Probably why most the FGC treats Smashers the way they do. Overreating to every little thing like a bunch of **** children! AHHH!!

But hey great lets ignore all that because we got what we wanted. We can stop the tantrums now everyone!

Edit: /rant. I'm done now infract me if you must.

Zelder · Feb 7, 2017

Das Koopa said:
weekly tourney update

1st: Captain Zack
2nd: MVD
3rd: Josh
4th: Blank

Minor point of order

Das Koopa : MVD also largely used Mario in this tournament (I think he's been using a lot of Mario as of late, I saw him take out ESAM's Pikachu at a weekly and he also beat Josh using his Mario here).

Murlough said:
....which you (not just you obviously) should have already known that would happen. Especially when a member of theres is Bear. Many top players have stated multiple times how awesome Bear is.

There was no way they COULD have forced there ruleset, at least not for long. Yet people still felt the need to grab pitchforks and call anyone who disagreed with there subjective opinion idiots. Maybe this is pointless banter but boy that **** pissed me off.

Probably why most the FGC treats Smashers the way they do. Overreating to every little thing like a bunch of **** children! AHHH!!

But hey great lets ignore all that because we got what we wanted. We can stop the tantrums now everyone!

Edit: /rant. I'm done now infract me if you must.

i mean surely you see the irony here my dude

Murlough · Feb 7, 2017

Zelder said:
i mean surely you see the irony here my dude

I'm not overreacting. Also, got the read on the guy trying to turn my argument against me.

I never personally attacked "idiots" over having a different opinion than I do. Thats worse than a little rant don'tcha think?

Edit: I'm not trying to insult people. I'm just trying to say that the community overreacted big time. If thats what we tend to do when things don't go our way, then I can see why other fighting game communities look down on us.

Nidtendofreak · Feb 7, 2017

Murlough said:
....which you (not just you obviously) should have already known that would happen. Especially when a member of theres is Bear. Many top players have stated multiple times how awesome Bear is.

There was no way they COULD have forced there ruleset, at least not for long. Yet people still felt the need to grab pitchforks and call anyone who disagreed with there subjective opinion idiots. Maybe this is pointless banter but boy that **** pissed me off.

Probably why most the FGC treats Smashers the way they do. Overreating to every little thing like a bunch of **** children! AHHH!!

But hey great lets ignore all that because we got what we wanted. We can stop the tantrums now everyone!

Edit: /rant. I'm done now infract me if you must.

You clearly weren't around during Brawl.

A solid 2/3s of the community wanted MK banned. The top level players mostly did not because most of them used MK. The Recommended Ruleset originally had him banned... but then top level players (and Japan) threatened to stop going to tournaments with MK banned and the whole thing got scrapped. TOs bent backwards adding new rules like ledge grab limit and axing multiple stages just to try to combat MK. Ended up with MK and ICs ruling the meta with everything being centred around them. Top level players still didn't want them banned despite the community wanting them banned and the game withering away. TOs still refused to do so.

They absolutely could have forced the ruleset. They successfully did that in Brawl. Locals always change to what the majors are. If every major tournament is using a particular ruleset local scenes will follow. At most they'll resist unto the first large tournament, then "temporarily switch in order to let our top players prepare for the major" and then just... never switch back. Saw it happened, that's how it goes.

You should listen to those who have gone through this before instead of believing you know how things will work out. History is an extremely strong indicator, particularly when the community's mindset hasn't change. Only reason the stage list is changing is because the top level players didn't like how the Bo5s were playing out. TOs know from Brawl that if they don't change things now the top level players will force them to do so later. Only thing that matters is what the top level TOs and players think, the majority of us don't matter to them despite it being us that lets them have a tournament in the first place. They won't say that and they'll do a few token things to try to smooth out the appearance of the situation... but we have no significant say. We're just a faceless mob, and one they ain't afraid of.

Emblem Lord · Feb 7, 2017

Nidtendofreak said:
You clearly weren't around during Brawl.

A solid 2/3s of the community wanted MK banned. The top level players mostly did not because most of them used MK. The Recommended Ruleset originally had him banned... but then top level players (and Japan) threatened to stop going to tournaments with MK banned and the whole thing got scrapped. TOs bent backwards adding new rules like ledge grab limit and axing multiple stages just to try to combat MK. Ended up with MK and ICs ruling the meta with everything being centred around them. Top level players still didn't want them banned despite the community wanting them banned and the game withering away. TOs still refused to do so.

They absolutely could have forced the ruleset. They successfully did that in Brawl. Locals always change to what the majors are. If every major tournament is using a particular ruleset local scenes will follow. At most they'll resist unto the first large tournament, then "temporarily switch in order to let our top players prepare for the major" and then just... never switch back. Saw it happened, that's how it goes.

You should listen to those who have gone through this before instead of believing you know how things will work out. History is an extremely strong indicator, particularly when the community's mindset hasn't change. Only reason the stage list is changing is because the top level players didn't like how the Bo5s were playing out. TOs know from Brawl that if they don't change things now the top level players will force them to do so later. Only thing that matters is what the top level TOs and players think, the majority of us don't matter to them despite it being us that lets them have a tournament in the first place. They won't say that and they'll do a few token things to try to smooth out the appearance of the situation... but we have no significant say. We're just a faceless mob, and one they ain't afraid of.

Your posts continue to restore my faith that the human species isn't entirely made up of slack jawwed idiots.

Cut it out and allow me to hate humans in peace.

Thank you.

freeziebeatz · Feb 7, 2017

Orion Rank Player Database
February Week 1 Update

9B

- Umebura Tokaigi Qualifer – 3rd
x1 Nietono

AeroLink

- King of Springs 2 – 9th

Ally

- Midwest Mayhem 7 – 5th

Brood

- Umebura Tokaigi Qualifier – 13th

Captain Zack

- TGL Monthly 13 – 1st
x2 MVD

Chag

- Midwest Mayhem 7 – 17th

Child

- TGL Monthly 13 – 7th

Dath

- TGL Monthly 13 – 5th
x1 Child

Earth

- Umebura Tokaigi Qualifier – 13th

Ezreal

- Gambit: Falln – 17th

Fatality

- REFLECT 3 – 1st

Jan

- Umebura Tokaigi Qualifier – 33rd

Javi

- Midwest Mayhem 7 – 4th
x1 Ally

LingLing

- Invasion 12 – 9th

Locus

- The Fifth Angle – 1st

Marss

- Invasion 12 – 1st
x1 Mr. E

Mr. E

- Invasion 12 – 3rd
x1 LingLing

Mr.R

- Avalon U-VII – 1st

MVD

- TGL Monthly 13 – 2nd
x1 Dath

Nairo

- Umebura Tokaigi Qualifier – 1st
x1 Earth

Nietono

- Umebura Tokaigi Qualifier – 7th
x1 Brood

Nyanko

- Umebura Tokaigi Qualifier – 17th

Raffi-X

- Invasion 12 – 9th

Raito

- Umebura Tokaigi Qualifier – 9th

Saiki

- Gambit: Falln – 1st
x1 SS

Samsora

- King of Springs 2 – 1st

SS

- Gambit: Falln – 3rd

You3

- Umebura Tokaigi Qualifier – 17th

Link to full thread.
https://smashboards.com/threads/orionrank-2017-data-thread.445337/#post-21645383

jet56 · Feb 7, 2017

Frankly, im quite surprised a number of people have voted for LC, but still want to keep DL and BF under the same ban. They are the same layout sure, but they have enough differences in them to warrant separate stages. What are the arguments for this? Is it to possibly appease people who would then try to justify FD and Omega's being separate stages if DL and BF were treated as separate as well? personally, im fine with either, and i completely get the arguments for and against having DL/BF be counted as the same.

Illuminose · Feb 7, 2017

jet56 said:
Frankly, im quite surprised a number of people have voted for LC, but still want to keep DL and BF under the same ban. They are the same layout sure, but they have enough differences in them to warrant separate stages. What are the arguments for this? Is it to possibly appease people who would then try to justify FD and Omega's being separate stages if DL and BF were treated as separate as well? personally, im fine with either, and i completely get the arguments for and against having DL/BF be counted as the same.

it's because you ban battlefield against say zss, cloud, or fox but then you still have to play against basically the same things that made you not want to go to battlefield in the first place.

not saying i agree necessarily, but it's not too unreasonable

Megamang · Feb 7, 2017

1) Ruleset is proposed

2) Community outcry

3) Re-evaluation of the ruleset, community feedback being taken into account.

Ok, just because 3 happened, don't turn around and say 2 was an overreaction. Look at the cause and effect.

And, we didn't stab bear in an ally. We didn't send him death threats. Some strong language was used on twitter, due to the shocking way the ruleset was rolled out. As a community, it is good we are passionate. Don't try and browbeat people for caring.

Zelder · Feb 7, 2017

Megamang said:
1) Ruleset is proposed

2) Community outcry

3) Re-evaluation of the ruleset, community feedback being taken into account.

Ok, just because 3 happened, don't turn around and say 2 was an overreaction. Look at the cause and effect.

And, we didn't stab bear in an ally. We didn't send him death threats. Some strong language was used on twitter, due to the shocking way the ruleset was rolled out. As a community, it is good we are passionate. Don't try and browbeat people for caring.

I believe the proper phrasing is "Bear got upsmashed by Ally" :yeahboi:

Thinkaman · Feb 7, 2017

Zelder said:
I believe the proper phrasing is "Bear got upsmashed by Ally"

You darn kids; don't think I won't come out of the Shadow Realm just to infract your tomfoolery.

Yikarur · Feb 7, 2017

damn. I've never thought the day would come where france, germany and netherlands are considered one region....... rip

Delzethin · Feb 7, 2017

Nidtendofreak said:
Don't feel silly at all. Primarily because Bear admitted that a lot of top level players told them in private they didn't like the list. Which is most likely the only reason why they're doing this. Top level players not being happy = them eventually speaking out = hurts attendance of their tournaments.

If the top level players were overall fine or even just neutral on it, they wouldn't be touching the list even if the public polling was identical to what it is now. Seen it happen back in Brawl, that's how it works.

And unlike the Meta Knight debacle in Brawl's day, it seems like the majority of top players and majority of the general community agree.

It seems a lot of people think Lylat Cruise offers more pros than cons. That was what was so frustrating about the initial ruleset throwing it out; it felt like all of those valid points were being ignored in favor of knee-jerk reactions. A vocal minority saw a glitch and wanted the entire thing gone immediately in case it might become a bigger deal. No looking into it, no analysis, no weighing the situation and what could go wrong against what benefits the stage offers, just make the uncomfortable thing go away.

Fear and gut instincts are the wrong things to rely on when it comes to these kinds of decisions.

Yikarur · Feb 7, 2017

next, we have to get Mii's legit with Guest size and moves

It won the poll at EVO and I'm sure it's would be a step in the right direction.

Mii Brawler is an amazing doubles character. In Singles I'd say .. I'm putting him in higher mid tier and he's clearly the best of the Mii's. The meta impact of them isn't great but we have at least 1 Mii Main (excluding myself; I'm not playing him much atm anyway) who's really making an impact, getting third in doubles at Smash Valley.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rb0OspkBSis
Really good Synergy.

Nidtendofreak · Feb 7, 2017

Yikarur said:
damn. I've never thought the day would come where france, germany and netherlands are considered one region....... rip

Well I mean there was that brief time back in the 1940s where- okay I'll stop my tasteless joke now.

Delzethin said:
And unlike the Meta Knight debacle in Brawl's day, it seems like the majority of top players and majority of the general community agree.

It seems a lot of people think Lylat Cruise offers more pros than cons. That was what was so frustrating about the initial ruleset throwing it out; it felt like all of those valid points were being ignored in favor of knee-jerk reactions. A vocal minority saw a glitch and wanted the entire thing gone immediately in case it might become a bigger deal. No looking into it, no analysis, no weighing the situation and what could go wrong against what benefits the stage offers, just make the uncomfortable thing go away.

Fear and gut instincts are the wrong things to rely on when it comes to these kinds of decisions.

Indeed. Its also what makes the Duck Hunt situation interesting. By admittedly very rough eyeballing, it looks like a 50/50 split for keeping it or getting rid of it. Particularly interesting since we don't have a good replacement stage. CS or PS2 comes closest but I don't see either happening.

Rizen · Feb 7, 2017

Yikarur said:
next, we have to get Mii's legit with Guest size and moves It won the poll at EVO and I'm sure it's would be a step in the right direction.

Mii Brawler is an amazing doubles character. In Singles I'd say .. I'm putting him in higher mid tier and he's clearly the best of the Mii's. The meta impact of them isn't great but we have at least 1 Mii Main (excluding myself; I'm not playing him much atm anyway) who's really making an impact, getting third in doubles at Smash Valley.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rb0OspkBSis
Really good Synergy.

Hey, that's a double Sheik team! Oh waaaaaiit...
edit, on the topic of that video, Rosa's Uair is even more insane in doubles. Especially in game 2.

What do you think of the Miis' or at least Brawler's move set that was predetermined for the rules? I never explored piston punch, always opting for tornado kick. Maybe I should have :/

san. · Feb 7, 2017

The easiest solution I can think of involving Duck Hunt: Remove it and replace it with the equivalent omega stages. Other omega stages will be equivalent to FD, while the walled ones would be their own separate stage type. It's not perfect, but I think it's a decent compromise.

Yikarur · Feb 7, 2017

Rizen said:
Hey, that's a double Sheik team! Oh waaaaaiit...
edit, on the topic of that video, Rosa's Uair is even more insane in doubles. Especially in game 2.

What do you think of the Miis' or at least Brawler's move set that was predetermined for the rules? I never explored piston punch, always opting for tornado kick. Maybe I should have :/

I don't really understand your question. What do you mean by "predetermined for the rules" ? which rules?
Rule of thumb is most likely that Helicopter Kick is better against fast fallers and piston punch is better against floaty characters.
The best Brawler would use both but I don't know a single Mii Brawler doing that.

Rizen · Feb 7, 2017

Yikarur said:
I don't really understand your question. What do you mean by "predetermined for the rules" ? which rules?
Rule of thumb is most likely that Helicopter Kick is better against fast fallers and piston punch is better against floaty characters.
The best Brawler would use both but I don't know a single Mii Brawler doing that.

Sorry I meant these rules that were discussed a few pages ago.
http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1spj1n0

Rizen said:
So it's:

Shot Put N
Onslaught F
Piston Punch U
Feint Jump D

Grenade Launch N
Flame Pillar F
Cannon Uppercut U
Echo Reflector D

Shuriken N
Airborne Assault F
Stone Scabbard U
Power Thrust D

Yikarur · Feb 7, 2017

a "golden moveset" is as arbitrary as 1111 so I don't really support it.
And in the place of Mii Brawler, like I said, both upB's are 100% legit and most Brawlers use the uppercut for neutralB but shotput is as legit. There is no best set.

NINTENDO Galaxy · Feb 7, 2017

Could the Mii restricted move situation fall under knee-jerk reactions?

EDIT: Maybe this might help the Mii discussion a little, this video was made a while back by the Mii discord server owner.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wF28oq8EgQc

Megamang · Feb 7, 2017

Yikarur There was a tournament recently, not sure where, where the mii's were contained to a predetermined set that was not 1111. Not sure of anything else, sorry.

The only issue I could see is Shiek having basically guaranteed access to FD, which would really blow up some characters... but hey, that is just the nature of CP's and a super good character.

As long as we are doing 1 ban covers BF/DL, then 1 ban should cover FD/OmegaWalls.

Seems good to me.

Luigi player · Feb 7, 2017

Why should Miis be allowed to use custom moves and characters like Mewtwo or other DLCs not?
Or Palutena, if you want to be more serious.
Just because you have to give them a moveset yourself before you're able to play them?

I really don't see how people want custom moves for specific characters and not for others. I know that Miis are different because they aren't real characters and just customizable puppets, which is why they should in my opinion either not be allowed at all or just with a default 1-1-1-1 moveset, like every other character.

san. said:
The easiest solution I can think of involving Duck Hunt: Remove it and replace it with the equivalent omega stages. Other omega stages will be equivalent to FD, while the walled ones would be their own separate stage type. It's not perfect, but I think it's a decent compromise.

At the start of Smash Wii U we tried using Omega-Wall and Omega-Float as seperate stages in Austria. I think it was fine.
But it's just that overall too many people dislike having 2 non-platform stages that are basically the same except for the walls/underside, which I can understand.

I don't really see why people think that "we absolutely need 2 of each similar category of stages", just because it seemed to be a little like that. Stages should be allowed if they're competitively viable. It doesn't matter if the only allowed stages are of only 1 type if the others only have BS. And if there are more similar ones then that's though luck for people who want to have it more balanced stagewise. That was never the point and shouldn't be, imo. All allowed starter/counterpick stages should be competitively viable and not too one-sided to have them "broken" for anything.

It's also true that TaC and Dreamland cater more to vertical kills and thus see more "if that one is banned I pick the other one" than BF-DL. So even if they (BF/DL) are similar they're still different.

It's also not like there are any stages where a character feels truly super-dominant or too good, the allowed ones are now pretty balanced overall, except for TaC, in my opinion, which allows certain characters to get basically free kill-confirms way too early.

verbatim · Feb 7, 2017

Luigi player said:
Why should Miis be allowed to use custom moves and characters like Mewtwo or other DLCs not?
Or Palutena, if you want to be more serious.
Just because you have to give them a moveset yourself before you're able to play them?

I really don't see how people want custom moves for specific characters and not for others. I know that Miis are different because they aren't real characters and just customizable puppets, which is why they should in my opinion either not be allowed at all or just with a default 1-1-1-1 moveset, like every other character.

Because you can still use them when CUSTOMS OFF is selected, and because none of them are anywhere near good enough to warrant a clause going against the game's interpretation. The mii's gimmick is kind of like Rosalina having Luma or Icies being two characters instead of one.

The compromise format that I like the most allows you to select moves on the default Mii's (which are mid weight and height), since creating special sizes and weights requires you to change settings outside of Smash 4, and because people believe that tiny mii's are strong enough to warrant a clause addressing their use.

Food for thought:

http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/what-should-be-banned

As an aside: Midweight Mii Brawler with Helicopter Kick is not at top 15 character, I could see arguments for top 20-25. Mii Gunner and Mii Swordsman are worse. None of them are anywhere near good enough to ban them outright.

Rizen · Feb 7, 2017

I don't mind standard default miis with a mix of moves that is consistent. It's when people get into customizing between battles and counterpicking specials that it gets problematic. Miis should have set moves, like all characters, but they don't have to be 1111. /my 2 cents.

Delzethin · Feb 7, 2017

san. said:
The easiest solution I can think of involving Duck Hunt: Remove it and replace it with the equivalent omega stages. Other omega stages will be equivalent to FD, while the walled ones would be their own separate stage type. It's not perfect, but I think it's a decent compromise.

That would do more harm than good. Their layouts would be identical save for their walls, and it'd give a greater advantage to any characters whose best stage is Final Destination, as they'd be guaranteed one version of it.

And considering many of those characters are also strong on Smashville...you'd be skewing the meta in favor of characters with specific tools. Specifically, rushdown, horizontal combos, and quickfire projectile zoning.

Nobie · Feb 7, 2017

So I have two points to make. One is about the topic at hand, the whole recommended stage list. The second is about the concept of "pick a top tier."

1) I keep seeing in places such as Reddit the idea that certain characters are screwed by tri-platform stages. But when I actually look at the character roster, I can't find THAT many characters who are utterly hosed by it. The heavies get juggled by them, but you'll just as often see them turn into ding dong country. Even slow, plodding Ganondorf can cover a ton of space with aerials. Jigglypuff and Falco don't really mind either. Is it just Dedede players or something?

2) The question of "why use a character that isn't a top tier" comes up fairly often, and the safe answer at this point is, "Use a top tier if you really want to win." Character loyalty is seen as borderline scrubby behavior, especially if your chosen main is less than stellar.

However, what I often find is that this mindset isn't necessarily shared by top players, and there's a minor disconnect between those who espouse play to win philosopies, and those who win (though sometimes the two can be the same). What made me really aware of this is reading Daigo's book and listening to his recent lecture.

Daigo said:
Tournaments are a playground for people who practice for growth. It’s where they show off their achievements. Once I made that realization, I finally started making continued growth my goal, rather than winning. Games enrich my life by allowing me to grow as an individual, and that’s what motivates me to keep on going.

That's very different from "what matters is wins/losses in tournaments."

As for Daigo's lecture, it's worth listening to the entire English translation, but I wanted to point to the moment where Daigo explains why he's sticking with Ryu in Season 2 of Street Fighter V despite the character getting numerous nerfs that hampers his potential for success.

Daigo mentions that he was very close to switching mains, but decided to go with Ryu anyway, and he gives an analogy. He talks about how he has a female friend who was told that she needed to find a good boyfriend. She was then introduced to the perfect guy: good looks, smarts, a Tokyo University graduate (the #1 university in Japan). However, months later, Daigo finds out that she's dating someone else entirely, someone with nowhere near the accomplishments of the other guy. When Daigo asks how she could choose that guy, she simply says, "I like how he's good at conversation."

In other words, Daigo equates the pressure of choosing a top tier to choosing the "perfect partner." By whose standards are they "perfect?" He was being told that, if he wants to succeed in the realm of fighting games, he has to use the best of the best, but who is defining success? Daigo even mentions that, as he was using other characters over Ryu, he was winning more often, but he actually wasn't enjoying himself. With Ryu, he might not be the strongest or the fastest or the smartest anymore, but he's "my main," essentially.

(You can probably just substitute Smash 4 Ryu in this example and it'd still work.)

I think the caveat to what Daigo's saying is that he has already proven himself a winner. He's one of the winningest people in the history of competitive video games, and if he decided to pick bottom tiers for the rest of his career it would never overshadow his accomplishments. A lot of people who play Smash 4 or any other game will never be in that position, and so the ability to not prioritize winning might seem foreign. But the title of Daigo's book, "The Will to Keep Winning," is interesting in that it's not called "How to Win As Much As Possible." It's more the idea that, if you treat every day as an opportunity for improvement, and you enjoy it, you'll keep getting better. It's as if having the will to win is more important than actually winning.

Rizen · Feb 8, 2017

^The perfect partner thing is a weird analogy. I've got news for anyone who thinks they're dating a "perfect" partner: they're probably a sociopath, lol.

On topic, play who you want. It's fine to play top tiers and lower characters too. Just be aware you will have an easier time winning with better characters. I like the mindset of personal growth over victory count.

Megamang · Feb 8, 2017

You can believe your partner is perfect

.

Just don't go looking for a perfect partner.

eyy, this thread is about smash. The only thing Perfect here should be our Pivots.

Speaking of PP, Leo used it to great effect as a backdash into poke. I feel this is strong with Marth, but I feel it would be *really* strong with mewtwo. Mix in PP-Dsmash if they like to run in and perfect shield, utilt with a jump...

Yikarur · Feb 8, 2017

Rizen said:
I don't mind standard default miis with a mix of moves that is consistent. It's when people get into customizing between battles and counterpicking specials that it gets problematic. Miis should have set moves, like all characters, but they don't have to be 1111. /my 2 cents.

That's not problematic at all. Why do you think that?
Counterpicking specials rarely occur and even then, you've changed maybe 5% of the character. Most of Europe has them legal like this for years and ... No problems.

ARGHETH · Feb 8, 2017

Rizen said:
I don't mind standard default miis with a mix of moves that is consistent. It's when people get into customizing between battles and counterpicking specials that it gets problematic. Miis should have set moves, like all characters, but they don't have to be 1111. /my 2 cents.

I'm just curious how this is any different from counterpicking characters...

Das Koopa · Feb 8, 2017

Yikarur said:
damn. I've never thought the day would come where france, germany and netherlands are considered one region....... rip

They aren't, they'll just be the top 3 listed in the database. Still, it's likely not a coincidence that the three best regions in Europe are located so closely together.

Rizen · Feb 8, 2017

ARGHETH said:
I'm just curious how this is any different from counterpicking characters...

You don't have to create characters like you do for custom moves. It's unfair to the rest of the cast to give miis interchangable movesets. Counterpicking moves adds another layer to the counterpicking meta. For example lets say you pick gunner with bombs, I pick Link, then you say "I want echo reflector", then I say well in that case I'm going C Falcon. You "then I want bombs vs Falcon"... you get too choosy and it takes a lot of time and ends up sucking for one player. The meta becomes a rock/paper/scissors game on the character select screen. We should advance the meta rather than change it.

Yikarur said:
That's not problematic at all. Why do you think that?
Counterpicking specials rarely occur and even then, you've changed maybe 5% of the character. Most of Europe has them legal like this for years and ... No problems.

So all the big European tournaments used custom miis?

ARGHETH · Feb 8, 2017

Rizen said:
You don't have to create characters like you do for custom moves. It's unfair to the rest of the cast to give miis interchangable movesets. Counterpicking moves adds another layer to the counterpicking meta. For example lets say you pick gunner with bombs, I pick Link, then you say "I want echo reflector", then I say well in that case I'm going C Falcon. You "then I want bombs vs Falcon"... you get too choosy and it takes a lot of time and ends up sucking for one player. The meta becomes a rock/paper/scissors game on the character select screen. We should advance the meta rather than change it.

...then why not make it use the same rules as character counterpicking?
Also, it takes literally 30 seconds to make a new Mii with the guest characters.

Rizen · Feb 8, 2017

ARGHETH said:
...then why not make it use the same rules as character counterpicking?
Also, it takes literally 30 seconds to make a new Mii with the guest characters.

Why give miis special treatment no other characters get while needlessly complicating the character selection process and making tournaments run longer?

ShadowGuy1 · Feb 8, 2017

Rizen said:
Why give miis special treatment no other characters get while needlessly complicating the character selection process and making tournaments run longer?

It's not special treatment imo. Miis, unlike their characters, can use customs without turning customs on and the main niche I would say of the character is the customizabilty they have. Yeah that last part COULD be said about Palutena, but I believe she needs customs on for her moves to work. Also, Europe has been fine with Miis being Guest XXXX.

Routa · Feb 8, 2017

Palutena requires customs to be set "on" to be able to use her.
And being able to pick from different specials is our gimmick. Just like how Ryu has strong and light versions from attacks and how Peach is able to float. You don't see people claiming thous to be unfair.

Very few Miis play with multiple sets. Changing a move can change the playstyle quite a bit from the user perspective, but it barely changes how you play against them. This why you don't see Mii mains changing their set that much between the games.

Myollnir · Feb 8, 2017

The Miis can be played with XXXX with customs turned off because they're not actual characters, they're customs. You create them by going to the custom mode, if you don't do that they won't even appear in the characters screen. Which is why they're not affected by the option "Customs On/Off", otherwise they would disappear from the screen when turned off.

I don't understand that they're allowed with 1111 set most of the time, either ban them or allow all their moves ; 2222 is as much of a custom set than 1111. If you don't want Mii players to have different specials from one another (which is completely understandable) and you want people to be able to learn how to play against them, then using a "golden set" is the best idea.

And changing specials mid set is the only time when one can claim it's an "unfair" advantage. That shouldn't be allowed imo. Then again, having a golden set voted by Mii players seems to be the best option to reach a consensus.

On a side note, I don't know about Europe but in France most of the time they're not allowed with Guest XXXX.

Yikarur · Feb 8, 2017

Rizen said:
You don't have to create characters like you do for custom moves. It's unfair to the rest of the cast to give miis interchangable movesets. Counterpicking moves adds another layer to the counterpicking meta. For example lets say you pick gunner with bombs, I pick Link, then you say "I want echo reflector", then I say well in that case I'm going C Falcon. You "then I want bombs vs Falcon"... you get too choosy and it takes a lot of time and ends up sucking for one player. The meta becomes a rock/paper/scissors game on the character select screen. We should advance the meta rather than change it.

I don't get what you're saying... that's not how character selection works.

So all the big European tournaments used custom miis?

PPTSummer, PPTWinter, Beast 6 (Golden Set), Beast 7 (All Moves), Avalon Series. Syndicate, Smash Valley, Agon Series, Eclipse, Neokan Party, Sonic Boom, Albion (Golden Set) and many more of the big important europe tournaments have run Mii's with all moves with no problems. I think Smash Valley was the first international to have a Guest Mii Brawler in Top3 (in Doubles) and that guy is a 100% solo main.

There are no problems with it. That's the Mii's gimmick and the characters aren't that good to begin with so there is no reason to make this game miserable for people who put effort in this characters.

Das Koopa said:
They aren't, they'll just be the top 3 listed in the database. Still, it's likely not a coincidence that the three best regions in Europe are located so closely together.

nah.. we don't interact that much

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