Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[JB333]

Divine Intervention ll (Georgia | 102 entrants) https://smash.gg/tournament/divine-intervention-ii/events/wii-u-singles/brackets/81950

1. Wrath
2. LordMix
3. HyperKirby
4. Kodystri
5. Mekos
5. Rango
7. Salt One
7. Neos

I think this was the only other notable tourney on Saturday.

 

[Das Koopa]

there were a lot of them, list coming soon

 

[FeelMeUp]

Users of need to wake from hibernation soon to kill off the sudden influx of fatty players.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Except that people have been consistently been pulling out commonly considered mid-low tier characters like Bowser Jr., Pacman, Charizard, and DHD (considered low in the West), Dr. Mario and Lucina and taken games off high level top tier mains. All of these characters were considered bottom half of the cast at the time of their notable results.

If winning games at high level isn't 'relevant', then the term relevant is no longer itself relevant. Because in reality these pocket picks are genuine threats that top players have to respect.

I wasn't aware history remembers those that "almost" did something or "managed" to take games.

Pocket picks demand respect because this game has so many characters, rage mechanics and some factors such as virtually every character having at least one abusive trait even if they have serious flaws.

Honestly this is pointless to even debate. Unless you are prepared to tell me that Doc is equal to his less educated counter part, then what are you even saying?

That low tiers aren't free? Meaningless. I didn't say they were. I said in the grand scheme, they are not relevant i.e they do not effect or dictate the meta nor can they do much CONSISTENTLY without CP chars backing them up.

 

[ぱみゅ]

So this wasn't brought up before:

Smash Factor Prelude #1 (Queretaro, Mexico, 104 entrants)
1. HY | Javi
2. Sucarella | Serge
3. HY | BrianZ
4. SF | Regi Shikimi
5. SF | Cloudy
5. SF | Hyuga
7. Sou
7. 72K
9. HS | Ramos
9. ThaHarris (I believe? I saw him using Fox in doubles)
9. Yasuo (???)
9. NG | Pablo BB
13. Manzano
13. DST | Terra
13. Master Puffy
13. HY | D. Pollo

 

[TDK]

Who'd Hyuga lose to?

 

[Illuminose]

Who'd Hyuga lose to?

cloudy and javi, both cloud, though at least his set with javi was game 5

toon link vs cloud is really painful man

 

[Gunla]

We can confirm that the next 4BR Tier List, V3, will release around mid to late February!

— Smash 4 Backroom (@Smash4BR) January 31, 2017

Expected release is mid to late February around Frostbite 2017; we targeted releasing around G4 but decided to include it in the list, hence the change to February.

Just a heads up.

 

[Game7a1]

Who'd Hyuga lose to?

CloudY and Javi.
Bracket.

 

[jet56]

I wasn't aware history remembers those that "almost" did something or "managed" to take games.

Pocket picks demand respect because this game has so many characters, rage mechanics and some factors such as virtually every character having at least one abusive trait even if they have serious flaws.

Honestly this is pointless to even debate. Unless you are prepared to tell me that Doc is equal to his less educated counter part, then what are you even saying?

That low tiers aren't free? Meaningless. I didn't say they were. I said in the grand scheme, they are not relevant i.e they do not effect or dictate the meta nor can they do much CONSISTENTLY without CP chars backing them up.

But the fact is they can dictate the meta, albeit to a smaller degree. They don't have as much power to shift the metagame as higher tier characters, sure, but they are indeed relevant. The point of relevancy is subjective of course, but you can't say they aren't relevant, grand scheme or not. While i will agree that we shouldn't be giving them the same amount of weight as a top tier, dismissing them is, quite frankly, foolish.

Keep in mind History isn't frail in memory like we are. just because something is quickly forgotten (such as prince ramen beating zero) does not mean it didn't happen. It did happen, and for that brief span of time, palutena did indeed shift the meta. However large or small that shift was is up for debate, but she did shift it, and dictate it, even for that brief amount of time. Nairo's bowser, Tweek's DK, The duck hunts at G4, they have all shifted, pulled, and changed the meta in their own way. So yes, in the grand scheme of things, low tiers are in fact relevant. How relevant? depends on how you interpret it. But they were, and still are relevant.

 

[L9999]

Divine Intervention ll (Georgia | 102 entrants) https://smash.gg/tournament/divine-intervention-ii/events/wii-u-singles/brackets/81950

1. Wrath
2. LordMix
3. HyperKirby
4. Kodystri
5. Mekos
5. Rango
7. Salt One
7. Neos

I think this was the only other notable tourney on Saturday.

Gotta mention that Lucas finally did something after all the Taiheita bombings, Ike exists, and Hyper continues to be great with Roy.

But the fact is they can dictate the meta, albeit to a smaller degree. They don't have as much power to shift the metagame as higher tier characters, sure, but they are indeed relevant. The point of relevancy is subjective of course, but you can't say they aren't relevant, grand scheme or not. While i will agree that we shouldn't be giving them the same amount of weight as a top tier, dismissing them is, quite frankly, foolish.

Keep in mind History isn't frail in memory like we are. just because something is quickly forgotten (such as prince ramen beating zero) does not mean it didn't happen. It did happen, and for that brief span of time, palutena did indeed shift the meta. However large or small that shift was is up for debate, but she did shift it, and dictate it, even for that brief amount of time. Nairo's bowser, Tweek's DK, The duck hunts at G4, they have all shifted, pulled, and changed the meta in their own way. So yes, in the grand scheme of things, low tiers are in fact relevant. How relevant? depends on how you interpret it. But they were, and still are relevant.

LOL, Palutena's meta crashed harder than Smashboards when the patch changes are published. You3 and Brood proved that their results in Japan weren't a gimmick but it is not like DHD changed the way of thinking drastically like Bowser and Marth did. Low tiers only shift the meta in their own tier, to see who is the best and the most garbage of them all, and those with very great performances (not upsets or LOL!ZeRoSD) and increasing playerbase prove that they weren't low tier to begin with.

 

[G. Stache]

Nairo's bowser, Tweek's DK, The duck hunts at G4, they have all shifted, pulled, and changed the meta in their own way.

Except Bowser and DK certainly aren't low tier, and Duck Hunt is very debatable on whether he's low tier or not. We have breakout performances, but where are the low tiers now with their breakout performances? Palutena is stagnating in the meta currently and doesn't seem to be close to a comeback (nor does she hold any effect on the current meta), Doc's breakout was at least a year ago and that's literally the one time something happened with Doc at top level play, Kirby is a very niche counterpick that's easily counterpicked back (did he ever even have any notable high level placements? Genuinely curious). Low tiers are only relevant until they get figured out. Then they settle back into obscurity. Not trying to be a downer Dan, but that's not something I'd call very relevant at all. Relevance isn't MU inexperience, it's how good each character is with the tools they're given. If not now, then there will be a time in this game's later lifespan when low tiers have no relevance in top level play. It's just how nature takes its course. Low tiers can make waves, but the waves can only have so much of a ripple effect if they're just a one time deal.

 

[Aaron1997]

https://twitter.com/Sinji93/status/826127175648702471

Sinji's match-up chart for Pac. I know some people are tired of these but one hasn't been posted in a while.

 

[jet56]

LOL, Palutena's meta crashed harder than Smashboards when the patch changes are published. You3 and Brood proved that their results in Japan weren't a gimmick but it is not like DHD changed the way of thinking drastically like Bowser and Marth did. Low tiers only shift the meta in their own tier, to see who is the best and the most garbage of them all, and those with very great performances (not upsets or LOL!ZeRoSD) and increasing playerbase prove that they weren't low tier to begin with.

Except Bowser and DK certainly aren't low tier, and Duck Hunt is very debatable on whether he's low tier or not. We have breakout performances, but where are the low tiers now with their breakout performances? Palutena is stagnating in the meta currently and doesn't seem to be close to a comeback (nor does she hold any effect on the current meta), Doc's breakout was at least a year ago and that's literally the one time something happened with Doc at top level play, Kirby is a very niche counterpick that's easily counterpicked back (did he ever even have any notable high level placements? Genuinely curious). Low tiers are only relevant until they get figured out. Then they settle back into obscurity. Not trying to be a downer Dan, but that's not something I'd call very relevant at all. Relevance isn't MU inexperience, it's how good each character is with the tools they're given. If not now, then there will be a time in this game's later lifespan when low tiers have no relevance in top level play. It's just how nature takes its course. Low tiers can make waves, but the waves can only have so much of a ripple effect if they're just a one time deal.

I agree on both of these points. I never said that low tiers would consistently or dynamically shift the meta. However, they collectively garner enough wins and results that they cannot be dismissed. That was all i was trying to point out. In fact, the biggest reason low tiers have any splashes in the metagame at all is BECAUSE people dismiss them as irrelevant. Low tiers are low tiers for a reason, and i agree with this. But it is unwise to ignore them, because they will always be around to surprise the smash community when it isn't paying attention. And let's be honest, it doesn't matter how long this game lasts, no one is going to be around long enough to efficiently learn every single MU, so there will always be MU inexperience. The fact they exist and are strong enough characters to cause upsets in and of itself makes them relevant, however small or large it might be.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Whenever a "low tier" character does something to "change" the meta, people quickly move that character up to mid tier (most of the time). So it is kind of true that low tiers don't really matter, since once a character starts to matter they stop being low tier (in general).

 

[Trunks159]

Whenever a "low tier" character does something to "change" the meta, people quickly move that character up to mid tier (most of the time). So it is kind of true that low tiers don't really matter, since once a character starts to matter they stop being low tier (in general).

So they don't matter...until they matter xD.

 

[Frihetsanka]

So they don't matter...until they matter xD.

Basically, if they do matter (much) they're not really low tier. See: Yoshi in Melee.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Whenever a "low tier" character does something to "change" the meta, people quickly move that character up to mid tier (most of the time). So it is kind of true that low tiers don't really matter, since once a character starts to matter they stop being low tier (in general).

Problem is they try to shove them into mid tier after like one break out performance while screeching "I told you they were always mid tier". And then 3 months later the character has fallen back off of the cliff and those people look like fools.

 

[ARISTOS]

Basically, if they do matter (much) they're not really low tier. See: Yoshi in Melee.

Problem is they try to shove them into mid tier after like one break out performance while screeching "I told you they were always mid tier". And then 3 months later the character has fallen back off of the cliff and those people look like fools.

This is all not that important.

Characters with the juice will prove themselves over time.

Characters w/o it will flash in the pan/ otherwise remain irrelevant.

 

[freeziebeatz]

OrionRank Update. Players who are qualified so far for 2017. To qualify you need to be in the Top 32/64 or a Category 4/5 Tournament respectively. This past weekend is not included on here.

Edit: Should include that everything post ZeRo Saga is what is being looked at.

Spoiler: Qualifying Players

6WX
Genesis 4 (5) - 33rd
2GGC Genesis Saga (4) - 7th
MSM 81 (3) - 5th

9B
Genesis 4 (5) - 13th
Sumabato Tokaigi Qualifier (3) - 13th
Umebura x Single-Chu (3) - 2nd
Karisuma Tokaigi Qualifier (3) - 4th

Aarvark
Genesis 4 (5) - 65th
2GGC Genesis Saga (4) - 17th
MSM 79 (3) - 9th
Midwest Mayhem 6 (3) - 13th

Abadango
Genesis 4 (5) - 5th
Umebura x Single-Chu (3) - 9th

AeroLink
Genesis 4 (5) - 25th

Ally
Genesis 4 (5) - 2nd
Midwest Mayhem 6 (3) - 7th

ANTi
Genesis 4 (5) - 9th
Kumite in Tennessee (2) - 2nd

Brood
Genesis 4 (5) - 25th
Umebura x Single-Chu (3) - 17th

Cacogen
Genesis 4 (5) - 49th

Captain Zack
Genesis 4 (5) - 4th
Midwest Mayhem 6 (3) - 5th

Chag
Genesis 4 (5) - 17th
Hail Smash VIII (2) - 2nd

Charliedaking
Genesis 4 (5) - 49th
2GGC Genesis Saga (4) - 33rd
MSM 79 (3) - 3rd

Child
Genesis 4 (5) - 17th
Smash Conference LXIX (3) - 9th

Dabuz
Genesis 4 (5) - 7th
2GGC Genesis Saga (4) - 13th
Kumite in Tennessee (2) - 1st

DarkShad
Genesis 4 (5) - 49th
Midwest Mayhem 6 (3) - 13th

Dath
Genesis 4 (5) - 33rd
2GGC Genesis Saga (4) - 17th
MSM 81 (3) - 17th

DSS
Genesis 4 (5) - 33rd
2GGC Genesis Saga (4) - 13th

dyr
Genesis 4 (5) - 49th
Smash Conference LXIX (3) - 17th

Earth
Genesis 4 (5) - 25th
Sumabato Tokaigi Qualifier (3) - 9th
Umebura x Single-Chu (3) - 17th
Karisuma Tokaigi Qualifier (3) - 13th
TSC Tokaigi Qualifier (1) - 4th

Elegant
Genesis 4 (5) - 13th
2GGC Genesis Saga (4) - 17th
MSM 79 (3) - 7th
Midwest Mayhem 6 (3) - 3rd
MSM 81 (3) - 9th

Eon
2GGC Genesis Saga (4) - 9th

ESAM
Genesis 4 (5) - 13th
2GGC Genesis Saga (4) - 25th
Smash Conference LXIX (3) - 3rd
MSM 81 (3) - 4th

Ezreal
2GGC Genesis Saga (4) - 25th

Fatality
Genesis 4 (5) - 17th
2GGC Genesis Saga (4) - 17th
Ledge Gardens: Voyage (2) - 1st

FOW
Genesis 4 (5) - 49th

ImHip
2GGC Genesis Saga (4) - 17th

Ito
Genesis 4 (5) - 33rd

Jan
Genesis 4 (5) - 49th
Sumabato Tokaigi Qualifier (3) - 49th
Shulla Bra Tokaigi Qualifier (2) - 17th

Javi
Genesis 4 (5) - 25th
2GGC Genesis Saga (4) - 9th
MSM 81 (3) - 7th

JK
Genesis 4 (5) - 33rd
2GGC Genesis Saga (4) - 7th

k9sbruce
Genesis 4 (5) - 25th
2GGC Genesis Saga (4) - 9th
MSM 79 (3) - 9th
Midwest Mayhem 6 (3) - 9th
MSM 81 (3) - 13th

Kameme
Genesis 4 (5) - 25th
Sumabato Tokaigi Qualifier (3) - 2nd
Umeubra x SIngle-Chu (3) - 17th

komorikiri
Genesis 4 (5) - 7th
2GGC Genesis Saga (4) - 2nd
MSM 81 (3) - 3rd

KOSSismoss
Genesis 4 (5) - 65th
2GGC Genesis Saga (4) - 25th
We Take Those: Pre-G4 (1) - 3rd

Larry Lurr
Genesis 4 (5) - 13th
NH Smash 3 (2) - 2nd
PPT Winter (2) - 1st

Legit
Genesis 4 (5) - 49th
2GGC Genesis Saga (4) - 33rd
We Take Those: Pre G4 (1) - 1st

LingLing
Genesis 4 (5) - 49th
GUMS 12 (1) - 5th
Invasion 11 (1) - 7th

Locus
Genesis 4 (5) - 25th

Manny
Genesis 4 (5) - 33rd
Smash Conference LXIX (3) - 9th

Marss
Genesis 4 (5) - 17th
2GGC Genesis Saga (4) - 13th
MSM 81 (3) - 9th
GUMS 12 (1) - 1st

MKLeo
Genesis 4 (5) - 1st
2GGC Genesis Saga (4) - 5th
MSM 81 (3) - 2nd

Mr.E
Genesis 4 (5) - 49th
2GGC Genesis Saga (4) - 9th
Smash Conference LXIX (3) - 7th
MSM 81 (3) - 9th
XenoFortyTwo (2) - 5th

Mr.R
Genesis 4 (5) - 5th
NH Smash 3 (2) - 1st

MVD
Genesis 4 (5) - 17th
2GGC Genesis Saga (4) - 17th
Smash Conference LXIX (3) - 13th
MSM 81 (3) - 9th

Nairo
Genesis 4 (5) - 17th

NAKAT
Genesis 4 (5) - 17th

Nicko
2GGC Genesis Saga (4) - 25th
MSM 79 (3) - 4th
MSM 81 (3) - 17th

Nietono
Genesis 4 (5) - 33rd
Sumabato Tokaigi Qualifier (3) - 9th
Umeubra x Single-Chu (3) - 49th
Karisuma Tokaigi Qualifier (3) - 5th

Nyanko
Genesis 4 (5) - 49th
Umebrua x Single-Chu (3) - 4th

Phoenix
2GGC Genesis Saga (4) - 25th

Pink Fresh
Genesis 4 - 97th
2GGC Genesis Saga - 25th
S@X 182 (2) - 5th
S@X 1/3/17 (2) - 2nd

Raffi-X
Genesis 4 (5) - 33rd
GUMS 12 (1) - 4th
Invasion 11 (1) - 1st

Raito
Genesis 4 (5) - 49th
Shulla Bra Tokaigi Qualifier (2) - 2nd

Ranai
Genesis 4 (5) - 9th
Sumabato Toikaigi Qualifier (3) - 7th
Umebura x Single-Chu (3) - 17th
Karisuma Tokaigi Qualifier (3) - 1st

Remzi
Genesis 4 (5) - 49th

Rich Brown
Genesis 4 (5) - 17th
2GGC Genesis Saga (4) - 13th
MSM 79 (3) - 2nd
Midwest Mayhem 6 (3) - 5th
MSM 81 (3) - 25th

Ryo
Genesis 4 (5) - 49th

Saiki
2GGC Genesis Saga (4) - 17th

Salem
Genesis 4 (5) - 25th
Smash Conference LXIX (3) - 1st

Samsora
Genesis 4 (5) - 49th
Smash Conference LXIX (3) - 2nd

Shaky
Genesis 4 (5) - 33rd

Shoyo James
Genesis 4 (5) - 33rd
Midwest Mayhem 6 (3) - 2nd

Sinji
Genesis 4 (5) - 33rd

Snoop
Genesis 4 (5) - 49th

SS
Genesis 4 (5) - 33rd

Teb
2GGC Genesis Saga (4) - 17th

Tweek
Genesis 4 (5) - 9th
2GGC Genesis Saga (4) - 4th
MSM 81 (3) - 1st

Tyrant
Genesis 4 (5) - 33rd
2GGC Genesis Saga (4) - 25th
Midwest Mayhem 6 (3) - 4th
MSM 81 (3) - 5th

Vash
Genesis 4 (5) - 65th
2GGC Genesis Saga (4) - 25th

Viviff T. Great
Genesis 4 (5) - 49th

VoiD
Genesis 4 (5) - 9th
2GGC Genesis Saga (4) - 3rd
MSM 79 (3) - 1st

Xzax
Genesis 4 (5) - 33rd

You3
Genesis 4 (5) - 33rd
Sumabato Tokiaigi Qualifier (3) - 5th
We Take Those: Pre-G4 (1) - 2nd

Zenyou
2GGC Genesis Saga (4) - 5th
Midwest Mayhem 6 (3) - 9th

ZeRo
Genesis 4 (5) - 3rd
2GGC Genesis Saga (4) - 1st

Zinoto
Genesis 4 (5) - 33rd
Midwest Mayhem 6 (3) - 1st

 

[jet56]

https://twitter.com/TheTantalus/status/826261099053981697
So, tantalus recently released a response to all the feedback he has been getting.

Also, at the end he asks about stages that could potentially be added (Peach castle 64, Halberd, Caste Siege, UCT, PS2 with hazards).
Personally, i would love to see UCT return, but that is unlikely. also, hype for custom mii sets that aren't 1111.

 

[Deleted member]

OrionRank Update. Players who are qualified so far for 2017. To qualify you need to be in the Top 32/64 or a Category 4/5 Tournament respectively. This past weekend is not included on here.

Edit: Should include that everything post ZeRo Saga is what is being looked at.

Spoiler: Qualifying Players

6WX
Genesis 4 (5) - 33rd
2GGC Genesis Saga (4) - 7th
MSM 81 (3) - 5th

9B
Genesis 4 (5) - 13th
Sumabato Tokaigi Qualifier (3) - 13th
Umebura x Single-Chu (3) - 2nd
Karisuma Tokaigi Qualifier (3) - 4th

Aarvark
Genesis 4 (5) - 65th
2GGC Genesis Saga (4) - 17th
MSM 79 (3) - 9th
Midwest Mayhem 6 (3) - 13th

Abadango
Genesis 4 (5) - 5th
Umebura x Single-Chu (3) - 9th

AeroLink
Genesis 4 (5) - 25th

Ally
Genesis 4 (5) - 2nd
Midwest Mayhem 6 (3) - 7th

ANTi
Genesis 4 (5) - 9th
Kumite in Tennessee (2) - 2nd

Brood
Genesis 4 (5) - 25th
Umebura x Single-Chu (3) - 17th

Cacogen
Genesis 4 (5) - 49th

Captain Zack
Genesis 4 (5) - 4th
Midwest Mayhem 6 (3) - 5th

Chag
Genesis 4 (5) - 17th
Hail Smash VIII (2) - 2nd

Charliedaking
Genesis 4 (5) - 49th
2GGC Genesis Saga (4) - 33rd
MSM 79 (3) - 3rd

Child
Genesis 4 (5) - 17th
Smash Conference LXIX (3) - 9th

Dabuz
Genesis 4 (5) - 7th
2GGC Genesis Saga (4) - 13th
Kumite in Tennessee (2) - 1st

DarkShad
Genesis 4 (5) - 49th
Midwest Mayhem 6 (3) - 13th

Dath
Genesis 4 (5) - 33rd
2GGC Genesis Saga (4) - 17th
MSM 81 (3) - 17th

DSS
Genesis 4 (5) - 33rd
2GGC Genesis Saga (4) - 13th

dyr
Genesis 4 (5) - 49th
Smash Conference LXIX (3) - 17th

Earth
Genesis 4 (5) - 25th
Sumabato Tokaigi Qualifier (3) - 9th
Umebura x Single-Chu (3) - 17th
Karisuma Tokaigi Qualifier (3) - 13th
TSC Tokaigi Qualifier (1) - 4th

Elegant
Genesis 4 (5) - 13th
2GGC Genesis Saga (4) - 17th
MSM 79 (3) - 7th
Midwest Mayhem 6 (3) - 3rd
MSM 81 (3) - 9th

Eon
2GGC Genesis Saga (4) - 9th

ESAM
Genesis 4 (5) - 13th
2GGC Genesis Saga (4) - 25th
Smash Conference LXIX (3) - 3rd
MSM 81 (3) - 4th

Ezreal
2GGC Genesis Saga (4) - 25th

Fatality
Genesis 4 (5) - 17th
2GGC Genesis Saga (4) - 17th
Ledge Gardens: Voyage (2) - 1st

FOW
Genesis 4 (5) - 49th

ImHip
2GGC Genesis Saga (4) - 17th

Ito
Genesis 4 (5) - 33rd

Jan
Genesis 4 (5) - 49th
Sumabato Tokaigi Qualifier (3) - 49th
Shulla Bra Tokaigi Qualifier (2) - 17th

Javi
Genesis 4 (5) - 25th
2GGC Genesis Saga (4) - 9th
MSM 81 (3) - 7th

JK
Genesis 4 (5) - 33rd
2GGC Genesis Saga (4) - 7th

k9sbruce
Genesis 4 (5) - 25th
2GGC Genesis Saga (4) - 9th
MSM 79 (3) - 9th
Midwest Mayhem 6 (3) - 9th
MSM 81 (3) - 13th

Kameme
Genesis 4 (5) - 25th
Sumabato Tokaigi Qualifier (3) - 2nd
Umeubra x SIngle-Chu (3) - 17th

komorikiri
Genesis 4 (5) - 7th
2GGC Genesis Saga (4) - 2nd
MSM 81 (3) - 3rd

KOSSismoss
Genesis 4 (5) - 65th
2GGC Genesis Saga (4) - 25th
We Take Those: Pre-G4 (1) - 3rd

Larry Lurr
Genesis 4 (5) - 13th
NH Smash 3 (2) - 2nd
PPT Winter (2) - 1st

Legit
Genesis 4 (5) - 49th
2GGC Genesis Saga (4) - 33rd
We Take Those: Pre G4 (1) - 1st

LingLing
Genesis 4 (5) - 49th
GUMS 12 (1) - 5th
Invasion 11 (1) - 7th

Locus
Genesis 4 (5) - 25th

Manny
Genesis 4 (5) - 33rd
Smash Conference LXIX (3) - 9th

Marss
Genesis 4 (5) - 17th
2GGC Genesis Saga (4) - 13th
MSM 81 (3) - 9th
GUMS 12 (1) - 1st

MKLeo
Genesis 4 (5) - 1st
2GGC Genesis Saga (4) - 5th
MSM 81 (3) - 2nd

Mr.E
Genesis 4 (5) - 49th
2GGC Genesis Saga (4) - 9th
Smash Conference LXIX (3) - 7th
MSM 81 (3) - 9th
XenoFortyTwo (2) - 5th

Mr.R
Genesis 4 (5) - 5th
NH Smash 3 (2) - 1st

MVD
Genesis 4 (5) - 17th
2GGC Genesis Saga (4) - 17th
Smash Conference LXIX (3) - 13th
MSM 81 (3) - 9th

Nairo
Genesis 4 (5) - 17th

NAKAT
Genesis 4 (5) - 17th

Nicko
2GGC Genesis Saga (4) - 25th
MSM 79 (3) - 4th
MSM 81 (3) - 17th

Nietono
Genesis 4 (5) - 33rd
Sumabato Tokaigi Qualifier (3) - 9th
Umeubra x Single-Chu (3) - 49th
Karisuma Tokaigi Qualifier (3) - 5th

Nyanko
Genesis 4 (5) - 49th
Umebrua x Single-Chu (3) - 4th

Phoenix
2GGC Genesis Saga (4) - 25th

Pink Fresh
Genesis 4 - 97th
2GGC Genesis Saga - 25th
S@X 182 (2) - 5th
S@X 1/3/17 (2) - 2nd

Raffi-X
Genesis 4 (5) - 33rd
GUMS 12 (1) - 4th
Invasion 11 (1) - 1st

Raito
Genesis 4 (5) - 49th
Shulla Bra Tokaigi Qualifier (2) - 2nd

Ranai
Genesis 4 (5) - 9th
Sumabato Toikaigi Qualifier (3) - 7th
Umebura x Single-Chu (3) - 17th
Karisuma Tokaigi Qualifier (3) - 1st

Remzi
Genesis 4 (5) - 49th

Rich Brown
Genesis 4 (5) - 17th
2GGC Genesis Saga (4) - 13th
MSM 79 (3) - 2nd
Midwest Mayhem 6 (3) - 5th
MSM 81 (3) - 25th

Ryo
Genesis 4 (5) - 49th

Saiki
2GGC Genesis Saga (4) - 17th

Salem
Genesis 4 (5) - 25th
Smash Conference LXIX (3) - 1st

Samsora
Genesis 4 (5) - 49th
Smash Conference LXIX (3) - 2nd

Shaky
Genesis 4 (5) - 33rd

Shoyo James
Genesis 4 (5) - 33rd
Midwest Mayhem 6 (3) - 2nd

Sinji
Genesis 4 (5) - 33rd

Snoop
Genesis 4 (5) - 49th

SS
Genesis 4 (5) - 33rd

Teb
2GGC Genesis Saga (4) - 17th

Tweek
Genesis 4 (5) - 9th
2GGC Genesis Saga (4) - 4th
MSM 81 (3) - 1st

Tyrant
Genesis 4 (5) - 33rd
2GGC Genesis Saga (4) - 25th
Midwest Mayhem 6 (3) - 4th
MSM 81 (3) - 5th

Vash
Genesis 4 (5) - 65th
2GGC Genesis Saga (4) - 25th

Viviff T. Great
Genesis 4 (5) - 49th

VoiD
Genesis 4 (5) - 9th
2GGC Genesis Saga (4) - 3rd
MSM 79 (3) - 1st

Xzax
Genesis 4 (5) - 33rd

You3
Genesis 4 (5) - 33rd
Sumabato Tokiaigi Qualifier (3) - 5th
We Take Those: Pre-G4 (1) - 2nd

Zenyou
2GGC Genesis Saga (4) - 5th
Midwest Mayhem 6 (3) - 9th

ZeRo
Genesis 4 (5) - 3rd
2GGC Genesis Saga (4) - 1st

Zinoto
Genesis 4 (5) - 33rd
Midwest Mayhem 6 (3) - 1st

Pretty sick to see Nicko on the OrionRank.

 

[L9999]

https://twitter.com/TheTantalus/status/826261099053981697
So, tantalus recently released a response to all the feedback he has been getting.

Also, at the end he asks about stages that could potentially be added (Peach castle 64, Halberd, Caste Siege, UCT, PS2 with hazards).
Personally, i would love to see UCT return, but that is unlikely. also, hype for custom mii sets that aren't 1111.

This guy is a joke. Bans Lylat and say it is "objectively broken" yet suggests stages that are banned because they are objectively broken and give top tiers even more advantage, and not to mention that they promote camp2win which is why Duck Hunt got banned.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

This guy is a joke. Bans Lylat and say it is "objectively broken" yet suggests stages that are banned because they are objectively broken and give top tiers even more advantage, and not to mention that they promote camp2win which is why Duck Hunt got banned.

PS2 I think is a valid selection. I've been in favour of it since Brawl where I got to use it in some tournaments. (I also got to use Pirate Ship in Brawl, was the guy who wrote the write up for it, and pointed out that the stage actually had a semi-pattern allowing you to reasonably predict the changes to the stage but that's neither here or there).

What I do want people to do, is inform him about the motion sickness problem with UCT. I tweet'd him that myself, but we need to make sure they are absolutely aware of the problem.

 

[Rizen]

https://twitter.com/TheTantalus/status/826261099053981697
So, tantalus recently released a response to all the feedback he has been getting.

Also, at the end he asks about stages that could potentially be added (Peach castle 64, Halberd, Caste Siege, UCT, PS2 with hazards).
Personally, i would love to see UCT return, but that is unlikely. also, hype for custom mii sets that aren't 1111.

So it's:

Shot Put N
Onslaught F
Piston Punch U
Feint Jump D

Grenade Launch N
Flame Pillar F
Cannon Uppercut U
Echo Reflector D

Shuriken N
Airborne Assault F
Stone Scabbard U
Power Thrust D

...not what I would call optimal. I'll write more later.

 

[TDK]

I'd like to see Peach's Castle 64 or PS2 with Hazards make an appearance as a CP myself. UCT could never come in, because of the motion sickness it's possible to have to stop a match for like 20 minutes so someone can go be ill. It's unfair.

 

[jet56]

This guy is a joke. Bans Lylat and say it is "objectively broken" yet suggests stages that are banned because they are objectively broken and give top tiers even more advantage, and not to mention that they promote camp2win which is why Duck Hunt got banned.

This leads me to an important question then: how in the world can we shift the ruleset back without having top T.O.s doing it themselves? i mentioned this in the stagelist thread, but we really don't have an established and official way of changing or altering the ruleset. we just kinda wing it, and i hate that we still do this.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

So it's:

Shot Put N
Onslaught F
Piston Punch U
Feint Jump D

Grenade Launch N
Flame Pillar F
Cannon Uppercut U
Echo Reflector D

Shuriken N
Airborne Assault F
Stone Scabbard U
Power Thrust D

...not what I would call optimal. I'll write more later.

Better than nothing, it means they're at least willing to try to give the Miis some life. Fighter they're probably scared off of a particular set too much, I don't see it ever happening.

 

[ARISTOS]

So it's:

Shot Put N
Onslaught F
Piston Punch U
Feint Jump D

Grenade Launch N
Flame Pillar F
Cannon Uppercut U
Echo Reflector D

Shuriken N
Airborne Assault F
Stone Scabbard U
Power Thrust D

...not what I would call optimal. I'll write more later.

lul no Hurricane Kick for Brawler.

Why are they playing games like this?

 

[jet56]

I'd like to see Peach's Castle 64 or PS2 with Hazards make an appearance as a CP myself. UCT could never come in, because of the motion sickness it's possible to have to stop a match for like 20 minutes so someone can go be ill. It's unfair.

The issue i have is they might be willing to make these stages CP, yet banned Lylat when it has less flaws than the other stages they are considering.

 

[Gunla]

So it's:

Shot Put N
Onslaught F
Piston Punch U
Feint Jump D

Grenade Launch N
Flame Pillar F
Cannon Uppercut U
Echo Reflector D

Shuriken N
Airborne Assault F
Stone Scabbard U
Power Thrust D

...not what I would call optimal. I'll write more later.

Pretty sure Xanadu decides the specials via local player preferences, and are usually changed once every quarter. This has been done for a while.

 

[freeziebeatz]

https://twitter.com/TheTantalus/status/826261099053981697
So, tantalus recently released a response to all the feedback he has been getting.

Also, at the end he asks about stages that could potentially be added (Peach castle 64, Halberd, Caste Siege, UCT, PS2 with hazards).
Personally, i would love to see UCT return, but that is unlikely. also, hype for custom mii sets that aren't 1111.

So they ban a stage that can tilt has some weird edges but are willing to try a stage with a bumper and 2 kill blockers, a stage that has hazards that can kill you/slow down the game, a stage with walk offs and ****ty transitions, a stage with temporary walkoffs, and a stage with hazards that effects movement. Imo UCT and possibly Halberd are the only one I think is acceptable out of that list but still. Halberd's jank is easily avoidable and predictable. It also adds a new way of recovering by going through the stage and has a unique platform layout. UCT has temporary walk offs that you can't really camp and unlike T&C the temp platforms won't carry you off the stage (at least in my experience they haven't).

Imo the stage list should look like for testing

Starter:
Batlefield/Miiverse* (w/ Online Off)
Final Destination/Omega* (w/ Restrictions on which are allowed)
Smashville
Town & City
Lylat Cruise

Counterpick:
Dreamland 64
Umbra Clock Tower
*Halberd* (Debatable but I don't see a point of having it)

2 bans. I think 7 stages works fine and we didn't need to shorten the list but I can agree with Duck Hunt being an issue as the tree can shut down some match ups. I would like to see Umbra (I always want to say Umebura instead lol) tested as an alternative for Duck Hunt w/ 2 bans in place but I don't see it happening. Lylat being banned was really uncalled for and I don't think their reasons are justified.

 

[blackghost]

I'd like to see Peach's Castle 64 or PS2 with Hazards make an appearance as a CP myself. UCT could never come in, because of the motion sickness it's possible to have to stop a match for like 20 minutes so someone can go be ill. It's unfair.

Peaches castle 64 is one i never see much of. I thought the main issue it had was now edges and that was chnaged in this game. why is it ignored? that bumper will proably lead to less kills than the smashville platform or town and city in general.


wait piston punch for brawler? why would that be a mii players first choice? mii restrictions will always be a blemish in this scne for me.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Problem is they try to shove them into mid tier after like one break out performance while screeching "I told you they were always mid tier". And then 3 months later the character has fallen back off of the cliff and those people look like fools.

Replace "Mid Tier" with "High Tier with Top Tier potential" and you've got the story of your own main.

Edit:Also, I'm pretty sure they didn't give Brawler Helicoptor Kick because of the many complaints that move gets for being "OP" and stuff. I doubt they don't think Helicoptor kick is the best up special for him.

Although I do agree he should've had Helicoptor Kick anyway

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

I would rather play on Lylat than any of those stages and I hate Lylat.

As much as I like Peach's castle 64 it's not at all balanced. Halbert has the ceiling issues. Hazard Pokémon Stadium 2 is an awful stage. The electric transformation totally screws over ledge get ups and is plain frustrating, you slid all over the ice one, the flying one you obviously just float around aimlessly the only tame one is the ground transformation which isn't enough to justify all that other jank.

The only stage that I could see is Castle Seige but that of course has plenty of issues with it.

 

[Rizen]

Miiverse is BF with a Jerry Springer message board re-skin.

https://twitter.com/TheTantalus/status/826261099053981697
So, tantalus recently released a response to all the feedback he has been getting.

Also, at the end he asks about stages that could potentially be added (Peach castle 64, Halberd, Caste Siege, UCT, PS2 with hazards).

IMO Peach's castle has some jank like the bumper but the real problem is characters camping on the bottom level. Halberd has too low a ceiling, IDC about the arm and cannon. Castle siege is okay but a weird choice if you're going to ban lylat and DH because phase 2 and 3 have big camping space and a tilting platform respectively. UCT causes motion sickness, it's a shame because the layout seems okay for a CP. I don't see anything immediately wrong with PS2 but can see issues if the air phase allows crazy ladder kills and the electric treadmill phase might be too oppressive for ground oriented characters.

It's weird to ban Lylat and add any of those because Lylat seems more neutral and less janky.

/my 2 cents

 

[Routa]

lul no Hurricane Kick for Brawler.

Why are they playing games like this?

I will say that Piston Punch is the only broken move which Brawler has. Not even Helicopter Kick can reach the bonkerness (is that a word? well now it is) which is Piston Punch.

Also
The Brawler set listed is very good. Said to be optimal for Brawler along with 2122
The Gunner set is... odd. Very few Gunners are willing to sacrifice recovery for a killmove. Add to that the Reflector instead of Bomb Drop and you got yourself a oddball moveset even within the Gunner mains. I mean the moves are all great, but never seen that combination. It is very unlikely to see any Gunner main using it in the end.
And the Swordspider set is... I might know the Swordspider main who uses that specific set. Using that Up-B and Side-B is like competing in a 200m sprint with a missing leg and way too low hemoglobin.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Replace "Mid Tier" with "High Tier with Top Tier potential" and you've got the story of your own main.

Edit:Also, I'm pretty sure they didn't give Brawler Helicoptor Kick because of the many complaints that move gets for being "OP" and stuff. I doubt they don't think Helicoptor kick is the best up special for him.

Although I do agree he should've had Helicoptor Kick anyway

We have never said top tier. That's insane.

We briefly said mid tier with high tier potential after... 1.0.4 patch because it was absolutely massive changes while few other characters had gotten major changes + we had months of good results at all levels? Died down afterwards. Still in mid tier, still getting overall results that fits the lower end of mid tier range.

 

[DunnoBro]

Piston punch is better aggressively, it kills sooner and creates a pretty dumb dynamic with Brawler airdodging down and punishing your endlag with piston.

But Heli-kick is more consistent, a better recovery, and much less punishable on whiff. While still retaining similar usage. IIRC there's only one dedicated brawler main who is a md/va regular, and he prefers piston so that's what he got. It wasn't because it's perceived as 'broken.' because it isn't. At least, on regular brawler.

It is on small brawler, but absolutely nothing about that character is balanced.

 

[|RK|]

Piston Punch is incredibly broken. With rage, you die about as fast as you would against max aura Lucario.