Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Das Koopa]

ZeRo has a lost a lot in 1.1.6. 3rd at WTFox 2, 9th at CEO, 3rd at EVO, 13th at SSC 2016, 2nd at GOML, 2nd at Smash & Splash

 

[Ziodyne 21]

And yet Salem makes him look like a complete joke.
Who knows? What is true however is that is a nightmare for all 3 , and .

What makes a nightmare for and in paticular?

 

[Ziodyne 21]

My vote for best part of KTARXIX was Salem vs Samsora

Intense from start to finish! Especially Game 5 Man how were either of them even surviving at such high %'s that round?

 

[Ark of Silence101]

What makes a nightmare for and in paticular?

For Salem at least, he knows the a bit too well because of Pugwest and Mr. E, seems Salem quickly took notice that MkLeo was just way more aggressive and adapted accordingly, Salem also has an occasional use for and so I guess he already had an idea of more or less what to expect. And as for , I believe it has something to do as because how hard he gets comboed, I apologize in advance if I am wrong with this statement, I too struggle in the MU, I only manage to even things up, at least against the players I have faced so far, with .

 

[Aaron1997]

This Just Happened

Kome > Shuton 3-2 at a small Japanese local

 

[|RK|]

KTAR XIX (November 19th) (Tristate) (455 Entrants) (Category 3)
1st: TSM | ZeRo
2nd: MVG | Salem
3rd: SF.HDG | MKLeo
4th: NRG | Nairo
5th: DMG | Tweek
5th: Samsora
7th: SS | WaDi
7th: Gomamugitya
9th: SS | Dark Wizzy
9th: Sinji
9th: Zinoto
9th: DNL | Marss
13th: Raffi-X
13th: CaptainZack
13th: False
13th: RNG | Dabuz

According to Twitter, Dabuz played Bayo against WaDi

 

[Monete]

Dude has been borderline nonexistent in NA for ages outside of like 2 people that use him. Hence why almost nobody knows how to yet: there's been no reason to bother figuring it out.

Has happened to other characters in the past: see Dr.Mario. Not saying Olimar is that bad, but its just common sense. If a character isn't used, you don't have the ability to really know how to counterplay them well.

EDIT: forgot the more obvious reason example of Samus. Johnny Westside got results for a few weeks, people starting going crazing and suggesting maybe she could be as high as low mid.... and then the results drop off as people figured Samus out.

Seriously, look back throughout SSB4's history. The number of times a character has had a spike in results and it sustained has been... Mewtwo and Marth. Both of those were due to patches. MegaMan, Lucas and Toon Link are borderline examples: results have certainly gone up for them but they're still not common at all. Still more common than Olimar though.

Really this community looks for excuses to hype up a character and toss them several tiers higher way too much. Olimar has a spike, people are demanding he be put into high tier claiming that "they've always thought he was underrated". Spoilers: the majority of you simply never had a thought about him before. Same thing kinda happened with Peach when the Japanese came over, its going to happen again with DHD when they come over again. Its just silly.

Wait a good 3 months to see how results level out once counterplay is created, then decide if a character should move up or if it was just a flash in the pan.

What about Japan? Shuton is top 5 player in the stronger region of the world where top players play eachother more easily. He has lost only 6 sets in his region, wins all Shullabras, and always tops in Sumabatos and Umeba

Comparing Olimar top 5 in Japan(power ranked 4th) by almost a solo Olimar, the second best character of Dabuz to Samus, DHD, or even Peach is silly. Also Olimar has better results than Lucas and Toon-Link.

3 months? whe have all 2016 as evidence. Olimar is very good also the hardest char to play

 

[Das Koopa]

He used him one game and got bodied @ Bayo/Dabuz

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Can I raise a hand and say i'm completely lost? Not on the characters or players I know those (who doesn't) but on words like shullabras, umeba, and sumabatos. I know they're all japanese terms describing tourneys in Japan but what do they actually mean? Is an umeba like a local with few players, is a sumabato like a regional? I'm happy to keep up with top players because it tells me some things but i'm not lucky enough to be able to watch these things like you can. I joined to expand my knowledge of smash and the smash community.

 

[Fenny]

He used him one game and got bodied @ Bayo/Dabuz

No surprises there, considering Pink Fresh and WaDi spend their Tuesdays dismantling each other

 

[Monete]

Can I raise a hand and say i'm completely lost? Not on the characters or players I know those (who doesn't) but on words like shullabras, umeba, and sumabatos. I know they're all japanese terms describing tourneys in Japan but what do they actually mean? Is an umeba like a local with few players, is a sumabato like a regional? I'm happy to keep up with top players because it tells me some things but i'm not lucky enough to be able to watch these things like you can. I joined to expand my knowledge of smash and the smash community.

Shullabra are regional tournaments not very important but its japan, the level density there is awesome.

Sumabato is the second stronges tournament there in japan. About 200 players, its a "super regional".

Umebura (Umeba was a mistake) is the strongest tournament there also a "super regional" but in an stronger area. You can compare it with Ktar XIX or 2ggsaga, not as many players but the average level is much higher.

 

[Goombo]

Can we talk about Rosalina and her top 10 status?

Her results dropped by a lot this year with all those hyped up non-Dabuz Rosa mains faliling to achieve like anything notable, and Dabuz himself going Olimar always when it really mattered and generally more than half the matches of his bigger Top 8s (and is now training a Bayo).
In Japan her results were probably better, but in the end it's still Japan and there are low-mid tiers in this place with similar results.

Top tier matchups like Mario, Diddy or Fox that have been seen as solid advantage a year ago have shiftet more and more to even and those voices declaring Cloud as a winning matchup for her have dissappeared nearly completely over the last months. The idea of Rosa beating Bayonetta also turned out as a complete joke.
Zoners like Mega Man, Tink and Villager which she was supposed to hardcounter have all managed to take sets of Dabuz or Kirihara over the summer, and the Marth and Mewtwo buffs added two new most likely losing matchups for her although I could understand this to be seen as dabateble as long as there is a lack of footage of those matchups at high level.

On top of all this there is still the whole "Meta Knight hardcounters her" thing.


I really fail to see how Rosalina deserves a spot in this games Top 10 mainly over Marth at this point but could see her fall even further.

 

[Deleted member]

Battlegrounds 3 (Texas - 137 entrants)

1) Fatality
2) JaySon
3) GrimTurtle
4) Nicko
5) DJ Fliphop
5) Jerm
6) BC
7) Culix
9) AvoiD
9) Kamicaro
9) Twi
9) Deluxemenu
9) J-Boss
13) Tony Sherbert
13) Slaps
13) ThisGuy

Another Shulk just got barely out of top 32 by the name of Aarow, FeelMeUp may know of him.

KIT Festival (Japan - 48 entrants)

1) Kome
2) Shuton
3) Yamanyon
4) Watuki
5) Woolley
5) Ki-tan
7) Kurousa
7) Osushi

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Yea it seems like both and even have been seeing somewhat of a drop from their sucess of the recent past. For Rosalina I see that many players have gotten better and more efficent at taking down Luma and developing counterplay against her

Mewtwo has still been getting solid results.. but it been kinda dropping over the last month or 2. I guess once once people strated figuring out how to deal with the vastly improved MU's vs him got better

Or maybe in both thier cases being both super tall and super light is becoming a more serious flaw for them in the current meta than first thought. They still may be around the bottom end of top 10 but even that may have to be considered if their results continue to lag


On the other hand both and have been seeing a huge increase of tourney sucess as of late. ( part of Peach's rise could he that Samasora is really , really good though) I can honestly see Marth becoming part of the top 10 if it continues and even Peach I can see rising at lot too

 

[Luco]

So I was informed by our resident Mewtwo main today that Aba vs any relevant diddy is something along the lines of 0-12. I asked him about Rich Brown, Blue, Mew^2 and he said nope to all of them. He says he could see an argument for Mewtwo-Diddy becoming a 7:3 MU.

Dunno if there are any results conflicting this, but if it's true then that's kinda ridiculous. Even the Ness-Rosa MU has seen mid to high level Ness mains clutch out victories (if nothing else Gackt 2-0 over Atelier is evidence that it *can* be done).

Not to uh, set alarms off or anything, frankly I've never known that much about the specifics of this MU at a results-based level but Mewtwo mains seem to complain about it a lot.

 

[Wintermelon43]

So I was informed by our resident Mewtwo main today that Aba vs any relevant diddy is something along the lines of 0-12. I asked him about Rich Brown, Blue, Mew^2 and he said nope to all of them. He says he could see an argument for Mewtwo-Diddy becoming a 7:3 MU.

Dunno if there are any results conflicting this, but if it's true then that's kinda ridiculous. Even the Ness-Rosa MU has seen mid to high level Ness mains clutch out victories (if nothing else Gackt 2-0 over Atelier is evidence that it *can* be done).

Not to uh, set alarms off or anything, frankly I've never known that much about the specifics of this MU at a results-based level but Mewtwo mains seem to complain about it a lot.

Yea, that matchup is probably the main thing holding Mewtwo back. That matchup is just bad.....

Something I've been wondering recently is: If we all woke up one day to just find out that Diddy Kong mysteriously disappeared out of nowhere from the game, how good would Mewtwo be? He would probably be the best character in the game to be honest. Mewtwo has so much; Good frame data, great KOing ability, good combos, good recovery, great projectile, great mobility, great aierals, etc. Removing his worst matchup (Which is a horrendeus matchup) leaves him with just one matchup that is generally considered a huge disadvantage (Cloud), and his results would be even better because Diddys were what eliminated a lot of Mewtwos.

Yea it seems like both and even have been seeing some what of a drop from their sucess of the recent past. For Rosalina I see that many players have gotten better and more efficent at taking down Luma and developing counterplay against her

Mewtwo has still been getting solid results.. but it been kinda dropping over the last month or 2. I guess once once people strated figuring out how to deal with the vastly improved MU's vs him got better

Or maybe in both thier cases being both super tall and super light is becoming a more serious flaw for them in the current meta than first thought. They still may be around the bottom end of top 10 but even that may have to be considered if their results continue to lag


On the other hand both and have been seeing a huge increase of tourney sucess as of late. ( part of Peach's rise could he that Samasora is really , really good though) I can honestly see Marth becoming part of the top 10 if it continues and even Peach I can see rising at lot too

Marth's increase in results is mostly due to his large and strong playerbase.
Also Mewtwo's results haven't droppped....

 

[Ziodyne 21]

My opinion on Top 4 is Because they don't have Matchups considered "really bad" or unwinnable for them as of yet . In other words, no MU's that are any less than 45:55 agaisnt them and no "Hard Counters"

As far as signfigantly bad MU's for the other members of the top 10

and has
has
has
has and
also has and but I am not too sure if they can be considered TOO bad for him yet. They are "beatable" for him. ( I personally would put Cloud at #5)

 

[|RK|]

My opinion on Top 4 is Because they don't have Matchups considered "really bad" or unwinnable for them as of yet . In other words, no MU's that at any less than 45:55 in thier favor and no "Hard Counters"

As far as signfigantly bad MU's for the other members of the top 10

and has
has
has
has and
also has and yet I am not too sure if they can be considered TOO bad for him yet. They are "beatable" for him. ( I personally would put Cloud at #5)

Of those four, Diddy has the worst MU spread. Also, I've mentioned this before but... why doesn't Aba just use a ton of Shadow Ball vs Diddy? That's one of the bad MUs in this game I really can't perceive as being *that* bad.

Results show it for sure, but IDK if that's just Aba or not.

 

[Illusion.]

Battlegrounds 3 (Texas - 137 entrants)

1) Fatality
2) JaySon
3) GrimTurtle
4) Nicko
5) DJ Fliphop
5) Jerm
6) BC
7) Culix
9) AvoiD
9) Kamicaro
9) Twi
9) Deluxemenu
9) J-Boss
13) Tony Sherbert
13) Slaps
13) ThisGuy

Lemme fix this for ya:

GrimTurtle went solo
AvoiD played
Deluxemenu played (he does have a secondary, I just don't know if he used him)

 

[Deleted member]

Lemme fix this for ya:

GrimTurtle went solo
AvoiD played
Deluxemenu played (he does have a secondary, I just don't know if he used him)

Thanks for the heads up, my man ^^"

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Of those four, Diddy has the worst MU spread. Also, I've mentioned this before but... why doesn't Aba just use a ton of Shadow Ball vs Diddy? That's one of the bad MUs in this game I really can't perceive as being *that* bad.

Results show it for sure, but IDK if that's just Aba or not.

I think it's been mentioned before but the only think stopping Mewtwos from shadow camping literally every character on the grange is their pride
In theory Mewtwo could beat diddy because he never has to approach and that's something diddy hates

 

[Fenny]

New rosa desync technique,this could be the future for rosa,ill make a better vid later with more techniques and more applications 🌿❤ pic.twitter.com/KpGEB3AGXy

— Molokhia Hakase (@ProfMolokhia) November 19, 2016

So this is potentially a thing now

 

[Game7a1]

Maybe I'm just spit-balling here when I say this is a trend, but whenever this thread mentions that a (top/relevant) character is lacking, something new comes up for that character that makes them look threatening again.

I'm probably going through a knee-jerk reaction, but you know. Just an observation.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

New rosa desync technique,this could be the future for rosa,ill make a better vid later with more techniques and more applications 🌿❤ pic.twitter.com/KpGEB3AGXy

— Molokhia Hakase (@ProfMolokhia) November 19, 2016

So this is potentially a thing now

Can you guys see it?

ICs live on through their spirit. It's beautiful *tears up*

But, I just wonder how deep other characters are that we're taking for granted.

This makes me wish we had a proper training mode so we can truly develop the meta.

 

[DanGR]

I don't know of any high/top level Rosa players that ever thought she simply hardcountered projectile characters because loldownb or lollumashield.

Gravity Pull is excellent at what it does (negating mid-long range pressure), but it's no reflector that returns the pressure back at you for using projectiles. It negates some forms pressure. An FAF of 45 is very rarely going to result in much aside from a stalemate outside specific cases like interactions with Ness' recovery (that some characters are actually better at edgeguarding, may I remind everyone). The long FAF also makes a lot of projectiles unsafe to gravity pull at all. Megaman has the frame advantage when he throws metal blade or shoots lemons and Rosa reacts with downb. Toon Link has the frame advantage upon shooting uncharged arrows and throwing bombs. Using downb against Villager most often simply results in a stalemate. Using it preemptively lets Rosa move forward very slowly, but that presents a little bit of risk. Rosa, along with most other characters, have ways around these things, but it's not so cut and dry, nor is it riskless.

Luma as a projectile meat shield functions as a shield for shurikens/aura spheres/arrows/etc at mid ranges so that Rosa can punish, a bait for punishing whiffed attacks (it's easy to pull Luma back with movement such as a turn around), and also as a way to increase opponent hitlag to make things more punishable in general. But it's important to understand as well that in many cases hitting Luma temporarily divests Rosa of her weapon. It's especially relevant against some of these projectile characters that can immediately threaten with their buttons after using projectiles. Downb in many cases isn't an option, shielding often times still gets Luma hit, and her ascension down from jumping is slow and floaty.

That said, she's still top 10. idk what you're smoking. : P

Those desyncs look cool, but the practical applications are probably very limited.

 

[HoSmash4]

Why has ZSS stopped being seen as Sonic's bad matchup, just because of Ken vs Nairo?

 

[Luco]

I think it's been mentioned before but the only think stopping Mewtwos from shadow camping literally every character on the grange is their pride
In theory Mewtwo could beat diddy because he never has to approach and that's something diddy hates

This is the argument people use to apply to needles and I'm not seeing it as of now. Projectile use is dynamic, you don't *just* sit there and wall a person out with them. There's risk and reward in many situations, there's situations where the threat of a projectile should be much greater than what's gained by actually camping with it and there's situations where you're just not going to get away with using and abusing said projectile.

I thought we did away with "pride" a long time ago. Most higher level players seem to accept the game is deeper than that - reducing it to a reason like 'pride' feels like the easy way out. SB and needles are pretty broken but are they really that broken?

It's a discussion I'd like to have, anyway.

 

[Emblem Lord]

KTAR XIX
MKLeo 2-1 Pinkfresh

MKLeo makes marth look reaaally good.

You mean he performs well with a strong character?

Yeah, that tends to be how it goes down when strong players pick strong characters.

 

[Das Koopa]

the DNG Kanto Invitational Round Robin tourney had a good T performance, apparently: (4th)

http://challonge.com/DNGKantoInvT

2-0 Kameme
2-0 RAIN
2-1 Choco
2-1 Pichi
2-0 Kirihara
2-1 Umeki
1-2 Tsu-
1-2 Kuro
1-2 Nietono
0-2 KEN
0-2 Abadango

 

[jet56]

https://smash.gg/tournament/rewired-2016-1/events/wii-u-singles/brackets/87747/273462
Rewired 2016 (104 entrants, AZ regional)

1) PG SS (AZ)
2) Saiki (AZ)
3) Stroder (AZ)
4) BestNess (Utah)
5) VaLoR (Utah)
5) 4Horse (AZ)
7) Felix (AZ)
7) Luhtie (AZ)
9) Utah (Utah)
9) TSS (Utah)
9) Arturito Burrito (Texas)
9) Spearwing (AZ)
13) TG Senpai (AZ)
13) Brodavid (San Diego)
13) Yudiketo (AZ)
13) Austin K (AZ)

AZ regional with Utah, Idaho, San Diego, and Texas OoS players in attendance. Honestly speaking, AZ and Nevada largely represent the southwest area, with a few notables from other states here and there.

 

[Deleted member]

https://smash.gg/tournament/rewired-2016-1/events/wii-u-singles/brackets/87747/273462
Rewired 2016 (104 entrants, AZ regional)

1) PG SS (AZ)
2) Saiki (AZ)
3) Stroder (AZ)
4) BestNess (Utah)
5) VaLoR (Utah)
5) 4Horse (AZ)
7) Felix (AZ)
7) Luhtie (AZ)
9) Utah (Utah)
9) TSS (Utah)
9) Arturito Burrito (Texas)
9) Spearwing (AZ)
13) TG Senpai (AZ)
13) Brodavid (San Diego)
13) Yudiketo (AZ)
13) Austin K (AZ)

AZ regional with Utah, Idaho, San Diego, and Texas OoS players in attendance. Honestly speaking, AZ and Nevada largely represent the southwest area, with a few notables from other states here and there.

Hey dude, congrats on 13th!

 

[jet56]

Hey dude, congrats on 13th!

haha thanks, i do what i can to rep the character i love and hopefully bring some insight to him. Right now it seems im stuck getting just inside top 16 at larger events though.

More importantly, i want people to recognize the southwest, and in particular, the strength of arizona and it's players. I think we are starting to reach a point of national notability, but it will still take some time.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

I thought we did away with "pride" a long time ago. Most higher level players seem to accept the game is deeper than that - reducing it to a reason like 'pride' feels like the easy way out. SB and needles are pretty broken but are they really that broken?

It's a discussion I'd like to have, anyway.

Its not necessarily the projectiles themselves that are broken, its the way the projectiles work with their kits. Mewtwo and Sheik are two of the most mobile characters in the game with good burst options just in case. If you try to get near mewtwo you're going to get faired, dtilted, or he's going to teleport behind you. If you try to get near sheik you're going to get faired, bouncing fished, or she's going to just BF right behind you. If ZSS had an amazing projectile like either of them shed be the absolute best character in the game. On the other hand if Gannon had it I don't think Gannon would even break mid tier still

 

[Radical Larry]

New rosa desync technique,this could be the future for rosa,ill make a better vid later with more techniques and more applications 🌿❤ pic.twitter.com/KpGEB3AGXy

— Molokhia Hakase (@ProfMolokhia) November 19, 2016

So this is potentially a thing now

Ohh! So a new way to actually wreck Rosalina because this is an extremely punishable thing on her? Well I'm totally invested in this new future of Rosalina.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Rosa's up b has surprisingly low endlag and is extremely hard to catch with slower characters if you're ledgetrapping traditionally. Don't immediately write it off.

Anyway, not sure if anyone's checked this yet:
https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/5dzx5e/comprehensive_smash_4_matchup_chart_for_all/
I'd recommend looking through it and saying whether or not things look right for your main. Sheik's looks almost perfect. Some things I disagree with, like Cloud actually being -2 while Jiggs is -1, but it's overall pretty satisfying. If you have a reddit account make sure to throw the man an upvote/gold for his hard work.

 

[Deleted member]

Rosa's up b has surprisingly low endlag and is extremely hard to catch with slower characters if you're ledgetrapping traditionally. Don't immediately write it off.

Anyway, not sure if anyone's checked this yet:
https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/5dzx5e/comprehensive_smash_4_matchup_chart_for_all/
I'd recommend looking through it and saying whether or not things look right for your main. Sheik's looks almost perfect. Some things I disagree with, like Cloud actually being -2 while Jiggs is -1, but it's overall pretty satisfying. If you have a reddit account make sure to throw the man an upvote/gold for his hard work.

I have commend him for his hard work but man Shulk's section is pretty awful. Didn't help he used only Nicko when it came to getting notable Shulk's MU charts.

 

[Radical Larry]

Rosa's up b has surprisingly low endlag and is extremely hard to catch with slower characters if you're ledgetrapping traditionally. Don't immediately write it off.

Listen, I'm writing it off right now because it's just an impractical desync setup that provides little to no use. Sometimes Rosa goes too far from Luma and punishes Luma, sometimes it's just downright punishable on her. There are some of the desync methods in the video like Rolling and Grabbing desyncs that are impractical, and you know what happens when Rosalina tries either of that.

It's just downright impractical.

 

[ARGHETH]

I have commend him for his hard work but man Shulk's section is pretty awful. Didn't help he used only Nicko when it came to getting notable Shulk's MU charts.

He wins more MUs than Robin, according to this (He wins 10, Robin wins 8).

 

[Fenny]

Ohh! So a new way to actually wreck Rosalina because this is an extremely punishable thing on her? Well I'm totally invested in this new future of Rosalina.

Listen, I'm writing it off right now because it's just an impractical desync setup that provides little to no use. Sometimes Rosa goes too far from Luma and punishes Luma, sometimes it's just downright punishable on her. There are some of the desync methods in the video like Rolling and Grabbing desyncs that are impractical, and you know what happens when Rosalina tries either of that.

It's just downright impractical.

The worst kind of sarcasm is the crass kind without subtlety, just saying.

Also you can't write off anything because it's literally just got off the ground and you have no idea how it will progress or how it may be come to be utilised. What may look impractical to you apparently looks to have utility in the eyes of lab rats like BAM.

 

[Radical Larry]

The worst kind of sarcasm is the crass kind without subtlety, just saying.

Also you can't write off anything because it's literally just got off the ground and you have no idea how it will progress or how it may be come to be utilised. What may look impractical to you apparently looks to have utility in the eyes of lab rats like BAM.

I don't care if it got off the ground, I know this is impractical to use because you're first, causing a large gap of separation between Rosalina and Luma, second, you're making Rosalina's movements very telegraphed and predictable, or making Rosalina vulnerable in different situations, and lastly, this can only work if the opponent is near Luma, which is pretty nigh impossible with this desync technique.

Listen, this is a heavy departure of what works for Rosalina, and while you would want to believe that this is a good thing, the reality is is that this is just a gimmick that makes Rosalina and Luma both vulnerable. Sadly, I firmly don't believe that this can work in an optimal setting, and the Rosalina player will just go back to what actually works.