Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[SaltyKracka]

Sheik only has two attacks that do at least 11%, those attacks are tippered up smash and the first hitbox on Vanish.

Ganondorf has a lot of attacks that do at least 11%. The second hit of down smash, down tilt, forward tilt, forward aerial, back aerial, up aerial, down aerial, Warlock Punch, down special, neutral aerial, up smash, and up tilt.

Now do you understand? Witch Time would murder some characters while barely doing much to other characters.

Welcome to how every counter since Melee has worked. If you've got an idea for a new design paradigm which doesn't disproportionally punish heavies (whom Bayo murks anyways because lol slow moves and autocombos), I'd be perfectly happy to hear it.

 

[TurboLink]

I mean, you could say this about literally every other counterattack move in the game. With one or two exceptions, they all work by multiplying the incoming damage by some number, then dealing that damage back. (With a minimum damage so that even countering something pathetic like Luigi's sourspot up special does something. The pseudocode would be something like "IF damage * multiplier > threshold THEN return damage * multiplier ELSE return min_damage".) Countering anything of Sheik's will do less than countering anything of Ganondorf's, therefore Ganondorf is more susceptible to counterattack moves in general. Changing Witch Time to scale the slow duration based on incoming damage won't deviate from this.

But Witch Time doesn't deal damage back, it slows down time and allows you to do whatever you want to your opponent in the allotted time. That's why I think it's bad.

 

[Amadeus9]

It seems like nobody here really understands why dragon fang shot is a good projectile, in fact its just more downplaying corrin as per usual. I dont get it, really.

What makes dragon fang good (and yes it is good), is not the shot itself. As far as projectiles go, it is decent. Good reward on hit, decent lag + startup. What's phenomenal about the move is that it plays into corrin's kit so brilliantly, because bite exists. You can not approach into dragon fang shot. Ever. Whereas most projectiles you can powershield then dash > whatever, or hilariously even jump over them and punish (which should be the disadvantageous position a projectile forces on you, but you know, top tier speed and air games), you cant do this to dragon fang shot. Theres a big, meaty, 23% hitbox between you and corrin. That he doesn't necessarily have to commit to. And even if he doesn't full commit, he still throws out a weak hit box you must shield. It's hilariously good.

Combine that with corrins stupidly good frame data and hitboxes, and you've got some nonsense.

Corrin can force you to be afraid of him, almost completely regardless of where you are, and what options he's even taking.

But you know, corrin is bad cause he cant approach. #justsmash4things

 

[TurboLink]

Nevermind. I misread something.

 

[Amadeus9]

A lot of characters don't have to shield. Link/Tink can throw a bomb towards Corrin and I think a downwards angled Gale Boomerang/Boomerang can also work. Dragon Shot really isn't that good. I don't even think the bite is safe on shield.

I'm not really sure how bringing up 2 projectiles that are specifically designed to disrupt zoning breaks the move. Like ok, dont be a drone and play every matchup the same.

Honestly this is just hilarious to me lol. Obviously you wouldnt be trying to zone out/disrupt link/tink with dragon fang shot.

OBVIOUSLY, you could have surmised that the purpose of the move is to disrupt rush down. Opponent wants to run at me? Hey I have a button for that. They dont? Well I guess i can push other buttons then.

What a narrow minded point of reference. "This option isnt good in this one case, therefore the option is never good"

why.

 

[Man Li Gi]

I've gotta to be real with ya....when people say rage is for the heavies and makes them better, it does for certain characters.

For the likes of Ganondord that hits not in succession and gets lucky just getting a hit in, yeah it helps.

For the likes of DK though, it doesn't. Considering that people put DK him higher tier because of Ding Dong, if DK had no rage, Ding Dong would work longer and better. Since DK is so prone to getting into rage early before he could get a Ding Dong off, the window he has to land them, decreases a lot.

So you say, what about the rest of his move set? Well his uair becomes really good with rage since it sends you at a 90 degree angle and has similar numbers to Mario's usmash. Besides landing a super sweetspot utilt, he doesn't get much. DK is the right balance of bulk and speed, you wouldn't want him to mow through people once he gets rage cuz that would be silly.

"But what about X move on DK?" There's probably some restriction on it to stop it from being strong with rage. Bair has insane 97 BKB, but an awful 20 KBG meaning it can't kill mid stage for a while even though it will be stale. DA never kills, Nair is restricted by small hitbox and unsafe on hit, fair is a joke, dair would be good if sour spot wasn't so weak, ftilt is a shadow of it's former self spacing and damage racking self, dtilt catches recoveries, but doesn't kill, jab barely connects and never kills (but it does setup for things if both players are at higher percents).

I think you get the point that DK is exactly a rage abuser, just a rage customer forced to use it.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I've gotta to be real with ya....when people say rage is for the heavies and makes them better, it does for certain characters.

For the likes of Ganondord that hits not in succession and gets lucky just getting a hit in, yeah it helps.

For the likes of DK though, it doesn't. Considering that people put DK him higher tier because of Ding Dong, if DK had no rage, Ding Dong would work longer and better. Since DK is so prone to getting into rage early before he could get a Ding Dong off, the window he has to land them, decreases a lot.

So you say, what about the rest of his move set? Well his uair becomes really good with rage since it sends you at a 90 degree angle and has similar numbers to Mario's usmash. Besides landing a super sweetspot utilt, he doesn't get much. DK is the right balance of bulk and speed, you wouldn't want him to now through people once he gets rage cuz that would be silly.

"But what about X move on DK?" There's probably some restriction on it to stop it from being strong with rage. Bair has insane 97 BKB, but an awful 20 KBG meaning it can't kill mid stage for a while even though it will be stale. DA never kills, Nair is restricted by small hitbox and unsafe on hit, fair is a joke, dair would be good if sour spot wasn't so weak, ftilt is a shadow of it's spacing and sage racking self, dtilt catches recoveries, but doesn't kill, jab barely connects and never kills (but it does setup for things if both players are at higher percents).

I think you get the point that DK is exactly a rage abuser, just a rage customer forced to use it.

I thought rage just shifted the window for combos like ding dong, instead of shrinking them. So if ding dong works at, say, 50-90% (just making this up), then DK with max range would try to land it at, say, 30-70% instead. Is this wrong?

 

[Lavani]

I thought rage just shifted the window for combos like ding dong, instead of shrinking them. So if ding dong works at, say, 50-90% (just making this up), then DK with max range would try to land it at, say, 30-70% instead. Is this wrong?

It isn't quite that simple, because different knockback values on moves will cause them to be affected differently by the same amount of rage.

Using your example numbers, let's say ding dong used to kill 70-90% for the range the combo connects in. Uair has less base knockback than cargo uthrow, meaning it's still more dependent on the opponent being at a higher percent for its knockback. So if rage cargo uthrow becomes 30-70%, uair's combo kill range might be more like 58-70% now.

 

[Radical Larry]

I thought rage just shifted the window for combos like ding dong, instead of shrinking them. So if ding dong works at, say, 50-90% (just making this up), then DK with max range would try to land it at, say, 30-70% instead. Is this wrong?

Well, if you think of Bowser for a moment, who can still do his U-Throw > U-Air around 80% normally, with rage, the window damage he would do would go from around 15%-80% down to 15%-70%. The minimum damage is not what's affected, it's more along the lines of the maximum a combo can get in.

While Rage increases the KB of attacks, in no way does it really affect the minimum (and if so, it's almost barely noticeable), but more along the lines of the maximum damage a combo can work, and as Rage goes up, the window goes down. Of course, rage certainly affects the KB in a way that you obviously kill earlier, way earlier actually.

Look at Sheik and test her out. She can still do the same combos at the minimum damages with ease with and without rage. Link can do the same, but of the two, Sheik loses a lot of the window needed, while Link remains virtually unaffected in terms of the window for the combo.

 

[LancerStaff]

• Counter Camping: Lemons clank with a ton of projectiles including, but not limited to:
  • Pit's Arrows

Minor nitpick but this isn't really relevant... It's like saying lemons clank with Air Shooter or Hard Knuckle. Pit should be aiming around lemons whenever possible, and it's not hard either. It's certainly more useful against Dark Pit but he still has enough control to where stopping arrows with lemons is a liability.

 

[S_B]

I had a thought about how to give heavyweight characters more options without actually changing how their basic movesets behave...

What if non-smash A button moves for HWs had variable frame data, based upon how long the button was held?

For example, DK's ftilt has the hitbox active from frame 9 to frame 11, with the FAF after being 38. If the player held the A button instead of tapping it, I envision it extending the duration of the move (including stretching out the hitbox).

So for holding the A button, the hitbox would now extend from 9-16, with the FAF being 43 (or it could be much more noticeable, like 9-21, and FAF on 48). It could hypothetically even be variable, where the # of frames the A button is held = the number of frames the move is extended (with a cap, of course), but that might be too complex overall.

It would be great to also extend this to aerials, though not necessary (not sure about smashes, in which you'd have to press and hold A after you've started the attack or something).

The idea here would be that, since HWs generally have bad frame data, they could choose when to extend a move to provide more coverage when they need it, without giving them any faster attacks, per se.

I suggest only doing this for HWs because they should be the best "boxers" in the game, as controlling space around them in key to success. Yet small, fast characters make this difficult because of how easily they can bait a move out of a HW and then punish it.

By giving the HW player the ability to vary the duration of their attack, the HW player would also be forcing the fast player to guess how long the hitbox will be out. If they see DK's ftilt start to come out, they can no longer just assume that his hand and active hitbox will only be out for 5 frames, nor that DK will be able to shield on frame 38 after it.

I'm guessing it would be far too late for a change like this to happen, but it would be a better solution to making HWs more viable outside of super armor and throw followup kill confirms. :\

 

[Lhivorde]

-snip-

Seems like a really bad fit for the Smash series, honestly. Way too complex for this type of game IMO.

 

[Man Li Gi]

I thought rage just shifted the window for combos like ding dong, instead of shrinking them. So if ding dong works at, say, 50-90% (just making this up), then DK with max range would try to land it at, say, 30-70% instead. Is this wrong?

Here it is. Cloud Ding Dong starts at 80% no rage and goes to like 108% (? @Big O). Max rage its 55 to 73 ( with delay to something a tad bit later). It works still just gets tighter and much messier. I feel like they nerfed DKs moves in accommodation for rage as DKs smashes killed real early in Brawl cuz of its baste knock back and growth being good. They nerfed the angle, KB and KG for the sake of not having his Smashes not to kill at 60.

 

[bc1910]

It seems like nobody here really understands why dragon fang shot is a good projectile, in fact its just more downplaying corrin as per usual. I dont get it, really.

What makes dragon fang good (and yes it is good), is not the shot itself. As far as projectiles go, it is decent. Good reward on hit, decent lag + startup. What's phenomenal about the move is that it plays into corrin's kit so brilliantly, because bite exists. You can not approach into dragon fang shot. Ever. Whereas most projectiles you can powershield then dash > whatever, or hilariously even jump over them and punish (which should be the disadvantageous position a projectile forces on you, but you know, top tier speed and air games), you cant do this to dragon fang shot. Theres a big, meaty, 23% hitbox between you and corrin. That he doesn't necessarily have to commit to. And even if he doesn't full commit, he still throws out a weak hit box you must shield. It's hilariously good.

Combine that with corrins stupidly good frame data and hitboxes, and you've got some nonsense.

Corrin can force you to be afraid of him, almost completely regardless of where you are, and what options he's even taking.

But you know, corrin is bad cause he cant approach. #justsmash4things

Well thank God you're here to enlighten everyone. /s

Writing off other peoples' opinions (most of which were well-informed, or at least measured) and saying they don't understand, just because you don't agree with them, is the kind of low quality "argument" we need to keep out of this thread.

Everything you've said is sort of obvious except for this bit...

You can not approach into dragon fang shot. Ever.

...which is incorrect. Any character with a decent run speed or dashgrab can shield a fully charged shot into fully charged bite and punish with dashgrab. You need a full shield, but it's a great option. Releasing the bite early doesn't change anything, you've just got to be ready to react and buffer a dash when bite hits your shield. You've also completely failed to account for run up > shield the shot > roll behind Corrin, which completely owns attempts to charge the bite. Yes, you have to shield the quick bite sometimes, which would be awesome if it was safe on block... but it isn't. DFS allows for natural mixups which makes it difficult to approach, but impossible? That's not true of any projectile in the game.

No-one's saying DFS isn't good, because it's a solid projectile. There are just arguments against it being among the very best in the game. The best projectiles have excellent frame data for camping and/or allow for ridiculous pressure traps plus great reward (often a kill) for little commitment. Corrin standing there for minimum 60 frames is a big commitment whether you like it or not.

 

[S_B]

Seems like a really bad fit for the Smash series, honestly. Way too complex for this type of game IMO.

We already have moves that behave differently depending upon how long you hold the button in several places, though, mainly in how jabs behave (whether they rapid jab or three hit), most of Ryu's attacks and Bayo's followup attacks.

 

[Blobface]

I find it really odd that we tend to lump Heavyweights together under the same problems. It's true that they've been bad through 4 games (only exception that springs to mind being the wondrously designed look at that smug grin), but that kind of becomes a moot point when you realize that every single game has had the exact same head designer. Somewhere there's a universe that's almost identical to ours, only with the Smash Forum of that Universe talking about how fast, mobile lightweights lack the range and survivability to compete.

I'm sure that if you asked mains of each Heavyweight character what their character needs to compete, you'd get drastically different answers from each character.

 

[G. Stache]

Concerning the Projectile discussion:

Is limit blade beam any good for Cloud? I know that limit side b probably eclipses it. But it's s big meaty transcendent projectile that can kill relatively early. So I'm wondering if it belongs with the top projectiles. I don't see many Clouds use it too much so I wouldn't know. Also, I'm not saying that Luigi's fireball belongs in the top 5 projectile group, but it hasn't even been brought up (I saw Links arrows be brought up before it) and is one of the key things that brings Luigi's neutral from Kirby tier to actually average. It lets him control a good chunk of space and can force approaches. As well as just being a good poking projectile for low commitment. It's definitely something to consider if we wanted to extend the projectile tier list to top 10 or 15.

 

[SaltyKracka]

I'm sure that if you asked mains of each Heavyweight character what their character needs to compete, you'd get drastically different answers from each character.

Sakurai's head on a plate.

There, proved you wrong.

 

[S_B]

I'm sure that if you asked mains of each Heavyweight character what their character needs to compete, you'd get drastically different answers from each character.

Compete against who, though?

The biggest problem HWs still have (and correct me if there's any exception to this) is that characters with superior speed and frame data generally still eat them for lunch.

Is there a HW with an even or even decent matchup against Sonic, Sheik, or ZSS? (maybe ROB, but he's 106 and definitely not classified as a Super Heavyweight).

Controlling the space around you as a HW is key to preventing these characters from getting in and comboing your sorry butt to death (literally). Without moves that come out faster all around, this is the next best thing.

 

[Kofu]

Well, here's a thought. I'm not well versed in traditional fighters but know that they tend to have characters somewhat analogous to Smash's heavyweights (Potemkin, Tager, Zangief). While the actual gameplay between traditional fighters and Smash differs concepts and basics do not.

With that in mind, which "heavyweights" from other fighting games have been considered good, and why? Could those same principles be adjusted for Smash's heavyweights?

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Compete against who, though?

The biggest problem HWs still have (and correct me if there's any exception to this) is that characters with superior speed and frame data generally still eat them for lunch.

Is there a HW with an even or even decent matchup against Sonic, Sheik, or ZSS? (maybe ROB, but he's 106 and definitely not classified as a Super Heavyweight).

Ike beats Sonic. And then Sheik (post patch) and ZSS are both 40-60. And Ike is heavier than ROB.

DK's MU against Sheik appears to be non-horrible considering DK has won against Sheik at high/top level a few times now. Ding Dong goes a long way particularly with Sheik taking forever to kill now. Wouldn't surprise me if Bowser is in a similar boat now but I honestly don't know.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

I saw a match where Viceroy's Rosa beat Pink Fresh's Bayo.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAjI_HuSCUg
seems to have good tools to beat bayo with reach, burst movement grabs and luma.

has pretty fast projectiles including bomb pulls with a FAF of 40 frames (+8 to throw and 220 until they explode). Compare them to Pit's arrows with a FAF of 59 or Mario's fireballs with a FAF of 53, etc and they're not bad.

you also forget that he can soft throw his bombs so they act as stage control for the amount of time that they're out. That's the thing that I think gives them the edge over Toon Links bombs and imo makes Links neutral sorta good despite his mobility, having bombs on the other side of the screen is always a good thing

 

[outfoxd]

Well, here's a thought. I'm not well versed in traditional fighters but know that they tend to have characters somewhat analogous to Smash's heavyweights (Potemkin, Tager, Zangief). While the actual gameplay between traditional fighters and Smash differs concepts and basics do not.

With that in mind, which "heavyweights" from other fighting games have been considered good, and why? Could those same principles be adjusted for Smash's heavyweights?

Gief in SF4. Monstrous reward and damage I believe l.

Jack in Tekken is decent for high reward, range, some good frames on key tools.

Wolf Hawkfield had some nasty damage l, giant swing. Benefitted from VFs general balance.

Ill get back to you on Pokken but so far my main Garchomp has some good awkward mixup and movement options to break through the ugly field phase and horrible long range duel phase.

3d fighters might be a little easier to make viable big boys. I'm not crazy authoritative so. Grain of salt

 

[Man Li Gi]

Well, here's a thought. I'm not well versed in traditional fighters but know that they tend to have characters somewhat analogous to Smash's heavyweights (Potemkin, Tager, Zangief). While the actual gameplay between traditional fighters and Smash differs concepts and basics do not.

With that in mind, which "heavyweights" from other fighting games have been considered good, and why? Could those same principles be adjusted for Smash's heavyweights?

Sentinel in MvC2 was good. Also Brawl Snake was good. Both had crazy stage control and could easily crank out moves with high damage with little remorse.

I highly doubt you want DK to be throwing strong orange grenades and good barrel projectiles.

Same with a good Gordo or good waddle toss. (They should map side for waddle toss and down b for gordos).

 

[outfoxd]

Sentinel in MvC2 was good. Also Brawl Snake was good. Both had crazy stage control and could easily crank out moves with high damage with little remorse.

I highly doubt you want DK to be throwing strong orange grenades and good barrel projectiles.

Same with a good Gordo or good waddle toss. (They should map side for waddle toss and down b for gordos).

Mvc2 Sent was prolly one of the toppest tier heavyweight characters in fg existence. I shudder.

 

[S_B]

Ike beats Sonic. And then Sheik (post patch) and ZSS are both 40-60. And Ike is heavier than ROB.

By 1 weight point. :\

I guess Ryo has done well against many Sonics with Ike, so that's something at least.

DK's MU against Sheik appears to be non-horrible considering DK has won against Sheik at high/top level a few times now. Ding Dong goes a long way particularly with Sheik taking forever to kill now. Wouldn't surprise me if Bowser is in a similar boat now but I honestly don't know.

Pretty sure it's overall still lousy on both fronts.

Sheik being toned down makes the whole thing more doable in general, but being overwhelmed by frame data is still a problem for HWs and I don't think the answer is "lol kill confirms" or just giving them better frame data overall as both of these could be overpowering.

I'm not sure my suggestion would fix the problem, either, but being able to control something else about your attacks could only help.

For example, DK starts an Utilt. Opponent attempts to jump in and Fair between the end of the active hitbox and the FAF. DK player extends the hitbox which throws the timing off and the opponent gets hit. DK doesn't get comboed for 30%.

...That sort of thing, which could also lead to "DK starts an Utilt. Doesn't extend it. Opponent anticipates the extended version and waits too long to punish".

Basically, HWs get a built-in tool for better controlling space around them.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Just a random thought, would it be ironic if the 3ds days of smash 4 went on til this year and it was on par with 1.1.5 in balance? That would be pretty cool considering bayo would fit better there than here and there be less complaining because we would had to deal with diddy, sheik, greninja, Rosalina, sonic, etc...

That sounds amazing in my ears tbh.

 

[Routa]

You guys have been discussing about best projectiles and no one has mentioned the Disk of Death?
Ofc I'm talking about Chakram, which might be most versatile out of all projectiles.

Let's look at the data shall we?

• Comes out on frame 18 and Faf 53
• Has 2 variations: Tilted and Smashed
• Tilted: Single slowly moving multihit disk that can be used for catching peoples landings, starting combos and edgeguarding
• Smashed: Single quickly moving disk that has greater range than Tilted variation (half of the BF's main plathform). Used for dealing damage in neutral and in edgeguarding (also can be used to counter edgeguarding attempts)
• Smashed Chakram deals 6% and keeps its hitbox stays active even after hitting a target
• Tilted Chakram deals 1% per hit and hitbox stays active even after hitting a target
• Both Smashed and Tilted Chakram can be angled in 6 ways (Right (up, straight, down) + Left (up, straight, down)
• Not chargeable
• Looses to pretty much any move when coming in contact

What makes this projectile so good? Its versatility. It can be used for getting kills (Jumberchak combo which is tilted Chakram into F-Smash), dealing damage in neutral, starting combos, punishing rolls and edgeguarding (and counter edgeguarding). Very few projectiles are as versatile as Chakram (only projectile that is as versatile might be Toon Link's Bombs). Ofc it is not perfect (clanks with pretty much every move), but there are no projectiles that are perfect in everyway.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Concerning the Projectile discussion:

Is limit blade beam any good for Cloud? I know that limit side b probably eclipses it. But it's s big meaty transcendent projectile that can kill relatively early. So I'm wondering if it belongs with the top projectiles. I don't see many Clouds use it too much so I wouldn't know.

It's pretty good but it's no small secret that Limit cross slash is by far the best of the four options. Limit blade beam is good because:

-it hard punishes rolls.
-it's good at edgeguarding.
-it puts on a ton of shield pressure and has a lot of shield stun.
-it's good for coming back to the stage by forcing your opponent to shield or move away to avoid eating it.
-it's surprisingly effective pointblank with its lingering hitbox.
-it kills at a fairly reasonable % for a projectile (mid 100's for most of the cast iirc)

At the very least, it's a nice mix up.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Just a random thought, would it be ironic if the 3ds days of smash 4 went on til this year and it was on par with 1.1.5 in balance? That would be pretty cool considering bayo would fit better there than here and there be less complaining because we would had to deal with diddy, sheik, greninja, Rosalina, sonic, etc...

That sounds amazing in my ears tbh.

I wasn't here for the 3ds days and I constantly hear about this mythical Greninja, can someone actually tell me what was going on with him that made him so broken?

 

[adom4]

I wasn't here for the 3ds days and I constantly hear about this mythical Greninja, can someone actually tell me what was going on with him that made him so broken?

Hydro pump.
The move had absolutely insane pushback.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Brawl had Snake and D3. Both compensated for their subpar mobility with the ability to camp and had great reward compared to most of the rest of the cast. Ryu is probably the closest thing in Smash 4 to this. None of the other Smash 4 heavies have any sort of meaningful camp game to let them control the tempo, and they don't have CQC anywhere near Ryu/Snake, though Charizard and Ike at least have decent jab speed. Bowser and DK right now actually do have really good grab reward that allows them to compete, but in general heavies tend to get outrewarded by faster hard punish characters, with Bayo and Cloud atm being the main culprits after ZSS/MK got nerfed. Ryu to a lesser extent overshadows most other heavies. Right now, Bowser, DK, and probably Charizard are in a place where they have decent tools, but need other characters to get toned down for them to have a chance at meaningful meta niches as hard punish characters. Ganondorf needs more grab reward for sure, and probably at least a moderate air mobility buff(which incidentally would improve his ability to combo off throws) in addition to some sort of Nair fix so as to make landing with the first hitbox generally viable, as right now he lacks fast aerials that consistently hit short characters. Smash 4 D3 I don't know where to start.

 

[Dre89]

I've gotta to be real with ya....when people say rage is for the heavies and makes them better, it does for certain characters.

For the likes of Ganondord that hits not in succession and gets lucky just getting a hit in, yeah it helps.

For the likes of DK though, it doesn't. Considering that people put DK him higher tier because of Ding Dong, if DK had no rage, Ding Dong would work longer and better. Since DK is so prone to getting into rage early before he could get a Ding Dong off, the window he has to land them, decreases a lot.

So you say, what about the rest of his move set? Well his uair becomes really good with rage since it sends you at a 90 degree angle and has similar numbers to Mario's usmash. Besides landing a super sweetspot utilt, he doesn't get much. DK is the right balance of bulk and speed, you wouldn't want him to mow through people once he gets rage cuz that would be silly.

"But what about X move on DK?" There's probably some restriction on it to stop it from being strong with rage. Bair has insane 97 BKB, but an awful 20 KBG meaning it can't kill mid stage for a while even though it will be stale. DA never kills, Nair is restricted by small hitbox and unsafe on hit, fair is a joke, dair would be good if sour spot wasn't so weak, ftilt is a shadow of it's former self spacing and damage racking self, dtilt catches recoveries, but doesn't kill, jab barely connects and never kills (but it does setup for things if both players are at higher percents).

I think you get the point that DK is exactly a rage abuser, just a rage customer forced to use it.

Rage can hurt him more than other heavies but can still abuse it. Bair utilt and uair are all very fast moves considering they can all kill with rage. You also didn't mention bthrow, which will kill fairly early with rage near the ledge.

But the biggest thing we probably get from rage is that makes upb a kill/gimping move. That's pretty good seeing as it's normally pretty easy to land it off-stage.

 

[Y2Kay]

I wasn't here for the 3ds days and I constantly hear about this mythical Greninja, can someone actually tell me what was going on with him that made him so broken?

• Hydro pump was stupid
• up smash killed at 90 percent
• shadow sneak cancelled landing lag on all his aerials
• Forward air was much stronger

 

[bc1910]

Fair kills about 14% later now on 3DS but with Wii U blastzones it's only about 4% later. Current Fair is better, I'd take 15f landing lag over killing 4% earlier.

I wasn't here for the 3ds days and I constantly hear about this mythical Greninja, can someone actually tell me what was going on with him that made him so broken?

He wasn't broken, he just seemed really powerful. Don't get me started, but he was overnerfed.

Usmash and Hydro Pump were a lot better. Usmash had less ending lag and the sourspots were stronger, while Hydro Pump pushed people further away. Both were really strong tools. Shurikens were different in that they had more startup and less ending lag (although the air version was worse than it is now) which created some problems online. I'm not sure which shuriken build is better though.

He had really strong out-of-the-box tools, basically. He's better off the way he is due to being more fleshed out. Once everyone stopped playing FG and started to pick apart the character's lacklustre footsies and KO options against shield, he'd have fallen off in usage. His Sheik MU would have been horrendous as well.

EDIT: Oh yeah, he had some Shadow Sneak bugs one of which was cancelling his landing lag. It was largely useless due to Shadow Sneak's ending lag (which was even higher than the boatload it has now) but it provided a decent mixup for landing Dair.

 

[Lavani]

Well, here's a thought. I'm not well versed in traditional fighters but know that they tend to have characters somewhat analogous to Smash's heavyweights (Potemkin, Tager, Zangief). While the actual gameplay between traditional fighters and Smash differs concepts and basics do not.

With that in mind, which "heavyweights" from other fighting games have been considered good, and why? Could those same principles be adjusted for Smash's heavyweights?

Can't really speak for the others, but stuff Tager has that Smash heavies don't:

• MAGNETS
• High speed projectile that confirms combos fullscreen and magnetizes even on block
• Highly damaging command grabs with partial/total invincibility on startup
• Projectile immune moves for approaching zoners
• Tons of i-frames on backdash (but bad distance)
• MAGNETS

Tager's probably far from the sort of design Sakurai would ever consider, but buffing invincibility on heavyweights' rolls, adding projectile invuln to dash attacks, and giving arm/head intangibility to Flying Slam/Flame Choke/Inhale would be a start.

I don't think we want to give heavies windboxes on grabs though.

 

[S_B]

Tager's probably far from the sort of design Sakurai would ever consider, but buffing invincibility on heavyweights' rolls, adding projectile invuln to dash attacks, and giving arm/head intangibility to Flying Slam/Flame Choke/Inhale would be a start.

I don't think we want to give heavies windboxes on grabs though.

And herein lies the key issue: SSB4 is a party game first and foremost, and giving things to heavies that allow them to do things like grab while invincible, plow through projectiles, etc. would ultimately make them god tier to casual players (which is why Sakurai/Namco won't do it, I feel).

I'd much rather see heavies given more advanced techniques that raise their skill ceilings, and being able to vary the duration of things like tilts and maybe aerials would do that while not making them OP in casual circles.

 

[Kofu]

Can't really speak for the others, but stuff Tager has that Smash heavies don't:

• MAGNETS
• High speed projectile that confirms combos fullscreen and magnetizes even on block
• Highly damaging command grabs with partial/total invincibility on startup
• Projectile immune moves for approaching zoners
• Tons of i-frames on backdash (but bad distance)
• MAGNETS

Tager's probably far from the sort of design Sakurai would ever consider, but buffing invincibility on heavyweights' rolls, adding projectile invuln to dash attacks, and giving arm/head intangibility to Flying Slam/Flame Choke/Inhale would be a start.

I don't think we want to give heavies windboxes on grabs though.

I'd be down with Probopass for a Smash character. He has MAGNETS.

Real talk, the big thing I'm hearing aside from better invincibility on attacks/rolls is stage control. None of the super heavyweights in Smash 4 have a long-distance projectile aside from Dedede and his is... well... Gordos. They'd be great for that if they weren't deflected by a light breeze (they do restrict the opponent in a disadvantaged state however).

 

[Eugene Wang]

I would be up for Ganondorf to get windboxes to draw enemies to him in Smash 5. He's a freaking dark lord, after all.

 

[ligersandtigons]

So something regarding tier lists and the results - theory relationship

so which characters have results worse than what their theory implies and which characters have results better than what their theory implies?