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Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

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Trifroze

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It's a misconception that decreasing damage and thus decreasing knockback on a move improves its ability to combo. Hitstun directly decreases with knockback so damage reductions are not going to improve anything, they just shift the window in which the combos work. If a move used to combo from 30 to 50%, after a damage nerf it could combo from 35 to 55% and so on. Unless a move starts to combo from 0% and still combos all the way from 0% after a damage nerf, it's not going to increase the window, only shift it forward.

BKB reductions increase the base comboability, KBG reductions increase the window. I can't believe people still say Falcon's uair nerf was a buff in disguise. God damn.

EDIT: One thing I have to mention though is that if a move goes from say, 12% to 10% and you used to be able to link two of them together and barely miss a third one in a rare scenario, you might be able to get it now in those situations. Still, even though you'd occasionally get 30% of damage instead of 24%, you'd much more often get only 20%, as the 3-link scenario can't be more common than the 2-link scenario if it wasn't possible to ever link three moves together before the damage reduction. The 3-link scenario might become more common if the damage reduction was heavier, such as 12% to 8%, but then you'd end up with 24% anyway and sometimes 16% etc. Additionally you have limited jumps and staling has more of an effect the longer the combo is.
 
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LancerStaff

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Every time I've heard people try and spin a nerf as a buff they were complaining about the nerf a week later... So yeah lol.

Like what Trifroze said, 99% of the time you're dealing less damage. That's never a good thing. So is reducing mobility, invincibility on rolls, or the stun time on DFS, and so on.

I mean, don't know what to tell ya. A nerf is a nerf no matter how you try and spin it. I also have my doubts about these supposed kill combos... If it actually helps Corrin overall, well, I'm assuming they'll be long gone next patch anyway.
 

TTTTTsd

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Yeah like Cloud's Uair doesn't allow for any more stuff. Granted the reduced damage keeps people closer for FOLLOW UPS and MIXUPS rather than true combos, which is nice when you have plenty of low lag disjoint to swing, but it's ultimately slightly worse regardless because anyone would take the extra damage and ability to kill a lil earlier. That being said I still find it kills incredibly well for a Frame 7 gigantic hitbox. Just not quite as early as before (Even near the top you can't do as much cheese anymore unless you have Rage).

Worth noting is that apparently Corrin Uair had KB adjustments (I believe it did? I can double check but I'm almost positive they tweaked it) to follow the damage nerf so that it still kills off the top fairly well.

What I REALLY miss from the moves where they nerf the damage is the "feel." I think the hitfreeze is altered when they do this (I know I felt it especially for Falcon Uair) and it just isn't QUITE AS SATISFYING to hit clean Cloud Uairs anymore. Wish they'd have adjusted the hitlag to match how it was pre-patch, feels good to hit still but way less juicy.
 
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TurboLink

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Can someone here explain to me why Meta Knight did not deserve his nerf? I've seen several posts of people crying that Meta Knight didn't need the nerf but I fail to see how.

Because if this was Sheik who had the ability to kill you at absurdly early percentages this entire site would probably be having a parade over the nerf.

And I don't want a reply similar to "It's hard to do." as an answer please.
 
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Pazzo.

「Livin' On A Prayer」
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What are everyone's thoughts on Corrin after the patch?

Many seem to believe the nerfs were very damaging but she feels almost exactly the same as pre-patch except that her aerials combo a lot better and U-air kills about 10% later. Her movement speed nerf is pretty inconsequencial as well.

Honestly, I'm starting to believe these nerfs were actually tiny little buffs in disguise (talking mainly about the aerial nerfs), or were a slap in the wrist like Cloud's were at the most. She lost power in her aerials, but I think her more efficient combos make up for it slightly, and while U-air kills later than it did pre-patch it's still a pretty effective killing move starting at around 120% or so. I think she also gained a kill confirm thanks to decreased knockback in N-air (late) to U-air, but I'm not sure on that.

I may be wrong on a few things, in which case I'm sowwy. ;w;

Thoughts?
The damage stuff is debatable, but Counter Surge's nerf was completely deserved.

I love how the dev. team is doing nothing drastic. Rather than seeing Corrin's success as a problem, they moderately balanced the character to a particular design.

What that design exactly is, however, I don't know. :laugh:
 

Radical Larry

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Every time I've heard people try and spin a nerf as a buff they were complaining about the nerf a week later... So yeah lol.

Like what Trifroze said, 99% of the time you're dealing less damage. That's never a good thing. So is reducing mobility, invincibility on rolls, or the stun time on DFS, and so on.

I mean, don't know what to tell ya. A nerf is a nerf no matter how you try and spin it. I also have my doubts about these supposed kill combos... If it actually helps Corrin overall, well, I'm assuming they'll be long gone next patch anyway.
Considering that we have things such as frame data that could kill these 'kill combos', then surely Corrin might not be able to utilize good kill combos outside of currently well-known and well-utilized confirms. And like you said, if any new kill combos do benefit Corrin, they'll be patched out.

But on the contrary, sometimes dealing less damage benefits some characters more than others despite nerfing it. Falco used to deal 13% damage with U-Air before its change to frame data and damage; it deals 10% now and is a great combo tool for Falco. It did lose kill potential, but did gain combo potential in the end, allowing his F-Air and B-Air to be his KO tools.

Can someone here explain to me why Meta Knight did not deserve his nerf? I've seen several posts of people crying that Meta Knight didn't need the nerf but I fail to see how.

Because if this was Sheik who had the ability to kill you at absurdly early percentages this entire site would probably be having a parade over the nerf.

And I don't want a reply similar to "It's hard to do." as an answer please.
Meta Knight players think he doesn't deserve it because it was one of his most utilized kill combos on stages like Battlefield and Duck Hunt, which had platforms that would allow him to do that early. The fact that he's lost the combo makes his other combos and attacks more usable and doesn't make MK players mainly rely on said former ladder combo to actually do something.

The ladder combo was broken, whiny MK players. It was going to get patched one way or the other. It was going to be an inevitable change, so please you whining MK players, just deal with it and use new combos coming from it. It's not going to kill you to do it, it's not going to kill Meta Knight's viability.

But hey TurboLink, that is my thoughts on their minds.
 

apparently fuz

legendary doesn't fit me.
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What I REALLY miss from the moves where they nerf the damage is the "feel." I think the hitfreeze is altered when they do this (I know I felt it especially for Falcon Uair) and it just isn't QUITE AS SATISFYING to hit clean Cloud Uairs anymore. Wish they'd have adjusted the hitlag to match how it was pre-patch, feels good to hit still but way less juicy.
Samus' dash attack now sounds like a wet noodle.

Where did that meaty, chunky sound of pre-patch dash attack go? I'm angry. Mad. Confused. Sakurai, please fix.
 

Mr. Johan

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Could have potentially had at least 9th last night if Witch Time didn't proc through me shieldiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiing. :V

Srs, I was learning that MU fast midset, and then I got caught in a spot I didn't expect to be caught in. Oi.

Also Dakpo went Luigi against me.
 
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Spinosaurus

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Can someone here explain to me why Meta Knight did not deserve his nerf? I've seen several posts of people crying that Meta Knight didn't need the nerf but I fail to see how.

Because if this was Sheik who had the ability to kill you at absurdly early percentages this entire site would probably be having a parade over the nerf.

And I don't want a reply similar to "It's hard to do." as an answer please.
With Sheik nerfed, he did deserve it.

People overrating the nerf though. He lost uair combos (not even necessarily that) for a better FAir, a significantly better Sheik MU and more damaging combos. Sounds good to me. Is he as good as before? Who knows, he definitely has a harder time against certain MUs now but he's not necessarily gatekept by anyone anymore. That's good.
 
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PK Gaming

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What are everyone's thoughts on Corrin after the patch?

Many seem to believe the nerfs were very damaging but she feels almost exactly the same as pre-patch except that her aerials combo a lot better and U-air kills about 10% later. Her movement speed nerf is pretty inconsequencial as well.

Honestly, I'm starting to believe these nerfs were actually tiny little buffs in disguise (talking mainly about the aerial nerfs), or were a slap in the wrist like Cloud's were at the most. She lost power in her aerials, but I think her more efficient combos make up for it slightly, and while U-air kills later than it did pre-patch it's still a pretty effective killing move starting at around 120% or so. I think she also gained a kill confirm thanks to decreased knockback in N-air (late) to U-air, but I'm not sure on that.

I may be wrong on a few things, in which case I'm sowwy. ;w;

Thoughts?
She's more or less the same, but undeniably nerfed. The good news is that Corrin can still function without most of the things that were nerfed, and her best tools were left intact. Thank god the movement changes were a non-factor as well.

I haven't really gone into the lab with her new aerials, but they were already pretty good at comboing before so i'm not sure if the nerfs make a difference. We'll see though.
 

Tri Knight

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Looking at Zard's patch notes. I don't even think I could call it a patch for him... it was a full blown overhaul.
 

TheGlove

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Year of the frog is upon us

Maybe
I woudln't be too sure about this, ally was supposed to pick up Shiek Zss Cloud and Marth at different points, I guess he sort of started to use cloud. That being said, I think Ally is the type of player who could really shine with Greninja.

Even though I might be kind of glad...
He said it's just because of a kill setup. Anyone tell me the setup so I can possibly find ways of getting out of it?
Greninja has several kill setups from Dtilt DThrow Dahs Attack etc. Ally is refering to a Vine Some (Top Japanese Greninja) posted.
https://twitter.com/consomme_5/status/710332733533380608

I guess Greninja's Back air can be canceled into tilts for Ko setups due to less Landing Lag,
 

BunbUn129

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With Sheik nerfed, he did deserve it.

People overrating the nerf though. He lost uair combos (not even necessarily that) for a better FAir, a significantly better Sheik MU and more damaging combo. Sounds good to me. Is he as good as before? Who knows, he definitely has a harder time against certain MUs now but he's not necessarily gatekept by anyone anymore. That's good.
This. While MK has been indeed technically nerfed, the nerfs to Sheik have made his overall MU spread better, meaning his actual standing within the meta game is more firm with the loss of his only hard counter. Still loses the Sheik MU, though....Idk, we still can't tell the real extent of Sheik's nerfs.

And with :rosalina: becoming more relevant due to top tier nerfs, :4metaknight: will possibly rise up with more rep because he still stomps her in the MU. And his general MU spread, I'd imagine, has been relatively unchanged, because the fair buff has really done a good lot to remedy one of his more glaring issues. And both his combo and KOing abilities are still intact and deadly, just much more reasonable than before.

Edit: thinking about the MK vs Sheik MU post-patch, I realize he would be a contender for #1 had he not been nerfed. We were so close to Brawl, guys...
 
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Emblem Lord

The Legendary Lord
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New fair hitbox has like no range whatsoever. Any swordsman can outspace it like a breeze.
Which should be the case.

They are ****ing swordsman. This doesnt make Sheiks fair useless.

And now people got me defending Sheik.

Smh
 

Pazzo.

「Livin' On A Prayer」
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I always imagined Sheik used needles in her fair, hence the long range.

(Head Canon)

Looking at Zard's patch notes. I don't even think I could call it a patch for him... it was a full blown overhaul.
Out of everything, the air speed is my favorite. Look what it did to Mario going from Brawl -> Smash 4!
 

Goesasu

Smash Journeyman
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Which should be the case.

They are ****ing swordsman. This doesnt make Sheiks fair useless.

And now people got me defending Sheik.

Smh
Well its not useless but its far from the beast it was before. Diddys fair its more scary now IMO.
 

ItsRainingGravy

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What are everyone's thoughts on Corrin after the patch?

Many seem to believe the nerfs were very damaging but she feels almost exactly the same as pre-patch except that her aerials combo a lot better and U-air kills about 10% later. Her movement speed nerf is pretty inconsequencial as well.

Honestly, I'm starting to believe these nerfs were actually tiny little buffs in disguise (talking mainly about the aerial nerfs), or were a slap in the wrist like Cloud's were at the most. She lost power in her aerials, but I think her more efficient combos make up for it slightly, and while U-air kills later than it did pre-patch it's still a pretty effective killing move starting at around 120% or so. I think she also gained a kill confirm thanks to decreased knockback in N-air (late) to U-air, but I'm not sure on that.

I may be wrong on a few things, in which case I'm sowwy. ;w;

Thoughts?
Corrin's nerfs definitely lower them a bit, but not by an incredibly substantial amount.

- Corrin is slightly less "flowcharty" now. Her aerial combos can still work, though they require more precision to pull off effectively. Meaning that you may drop a combo here and there, though Nair/Fair combos are still pretty easy to do. Essentially, you are now rewarded with proper timing and good button presses instead of having guaranteed rewards for free. It makes them feel slightly clunkier, but in the grand scheme of things, this is a good thing.

- Reduced damage on aerials mean that Corrin's ability to rack up damage is slightly weaker. Granted, it WAS kind of dumb before. Before the patch, I felt as though she had an overall higher damage-from-combos output than Mario, dealing about ~27% off of a stray forward air easy. Now, not only are the combos harder to perform, but they also usually deal around ~3-5% less damage overall. Which hurts, but that just means that you have to land one to three more attacks before you can finish your opponents off. Which isn't that bad.

- Probably the biggest nerf besides Counter Surge is Uair. It kills a bit later now, though it can combo into Bair at a higher (aka better) percent range if you land with it. Still, it hurts in one of the areas that Corrin has some trouble with, and that is finishing the opponent off. So this is significant when you also consider Corrin's lower damage output, imo.

- Speaking of comboing into Bair at higher/better percents, Nair does that now. So approaching the opponent with the reverse hitbox of Nair and following it up with Bair can be quite rewarding. This is probably Corrin's biggest buff due to this patch. (Fair to Bair does this too but is more awkward to do)

- DFS losing 2% damage on the fully charged shot limits its comboability at long range, but overall, this nerf is inconsequential. Because the most important aspect of DFS, which is using the uncharged shot and the charged bite, works perfectly fine still. And the bite still does 20% damage/wasn't nerfed at all, from what I can tell. Basically, it hurts DFS spam from afar...but long-ranged DFS spam wasn't all that great to begin with tbh.

- The biggest nerf of all was obviously Counter Surge. But I am pretty sure that everybody is happy about that, because it was really dumb before. It hurts Corrin's KO potential, sure, but honestly it was really toxic before because you could punish your opponents even if you were playing bad/they were playing well.

- Dragon Lunge wasn't nerfed at all, and remains to be one of the best Side B's in the game. And it still does 19% damage. As a matter of fact, Nair/Fair to Side B works even better at lower percents now due to their lower damage. So expect to see this low percent combo more often to help with damage racking.

- Movement speed nerf is a complete joke, and should promptly be ignored by everybody. lol

- The most important thing to note is that none of Corrin's ground moves were nerfed at all. And Corrin's range wasn't nerfed at all, either. This means that Corrin is still a really good character that rewards patient play in the Neutral, so the most important aspect of the character is completely intact.


Overall, the ability to easily rack up damage was nerfed a bit, Uair KOs were nerfed, and Corrin's broken counter was nerfed. But beyond that, they play exactly the same as they did before. Aerial combos are a bit harder to do now, but are somewhat compensated by better Side B and Bair followups. And sometimes you can get an extra Uair hit at higher percents, as well. So basically, Corrin may drop a place or two due to these nerfs, but that's honestly about it really. They aren't nearly as bad as some people claim, and Corrin is still a very functional and effective character. Basically, these nerfs will affect low level play much more than they will affect high level play.
 
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bc1910

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Charizard feels great. He flows really well now, thanks to the landing lag reduction and air speed buff. Playing him isn't so jarring anymore because you can actually move in the air!

Too early to say where he'll end up, but I'm pretty excited for him. BAir is kinda nasty now.
Zard is damn good now. With a kill throw, high damage output and passable neutral, he's definitely the second best heavy IMO. You can't afford to make mistakes against Zard but, unlike most heavies, he has the mobility to capitalize on a wide range of mistakes.

I woudln't be too sure about this, ally was supposed to pick up Shiek Zss Cloud and Marth at different points, I guess he sort of started to use cloud. That being said, I think Ally is the type of player who could really shine with Greninja.



Greninja has several kill setups from Dtilt DThrow Dahs Attack etc. Ally is refering to a Vine Some (Top Japanese Greninja) posted.
https://twitter.com/consomme_5/status/710332733533380608

I guess Greninja's Back air can be canceled into tilts for Ko setups due to less Landing Lag,
I tried these out on the day of the patch. Bair is still really unsafe on block if you land into them and the Dtilt is easy to DI when you know it's coming. The Utilt one is okay, not a bad way to punish predictable rolls or dash-ins.

You can get jab as well, and sometimes dash attack. Eventually Fsmash works.
 

Eugene Wang

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What do the matchup spreads for the most likely top tiers (vs other top tiers) look like now, according to theorycrafting? In particular, who beats who?
 

LordShade67

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- Probably the biggest nerf besides Counter Surge is Uair. It kills a bit later now, though it can combo into Bair at a higher (aka better) percent range if you land with it. Still, it hurts in one of the areas that Corrin has some trouble with, and that is finishing the opponent off. So this is significant when you also consider Corrin's lower damage output, imo.
Well, sorta. It lost 1% in damage, but it apparently gained +5 in KBG. Just sayin.
 

ARGHETH

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It does 9% and has a KB of 55/99 now, in case anyone's interested.
 
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ItsRainingGravy

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Well, sorta. It lost 1% in damage, but it apparently gained +5 in KBG. Just sayin.
Oh, that's good actually. I haven't checked the other thread yet. Still, more good news for Corrin players/more proof that they didn't get hurt that badly, lol

Thanks for the info!
 
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BunbUn129

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What do the matchup spreads for the most likely top tiers (vs other top tiers) look like now, according to theorycrafting? In particular, who beats who?
For :4metaknight::

Winning: :rosalina::4ness::4ryu::4zss::4mario:

Even (more or less): :4cloud::4fox::4sonic::4bayonetta:

Losing: :4sheik:(?), :4diddy:


Pre-patch:

Winning: :4mario::4fox::rosalina::4ryu::4ness:

Even (more or less): :4zss::4bayonetta::4cloud::4sonic:

Losing: :4sheik:(**** needles), :4diddy:

Remember, post-patch is thoerycrafting.


Seeing how the Sheik-MK MU plays out is vital for determining MK's competitive standing. Fox is even post-patch because he doesn't get punished as hard. ZSS is currently winning because the nerf to her nair and loss of her Hoo Hah due to KBG increase on her d-throw, and MK can now fair in a SH which is big here because he now has a reliable rising aerial while she still doesn't.

Basically, MK's + MU's became less favorable, his - MU's became much more manageable, and the toning down of his punish game and improvement to his neutral have kept some even MU's even.

And the rest of his MU spread likely hasn't changed decisively.

:rosalina: and :4ness: can still rip, though.
 

Zelder

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Does MK beat Mario? Both Tyrant and...some other top MK who had their matchup list posted a couple of pages back had it as a MK disadvantage (Tyrant) or even/slight disadvantage (the other MK)

edit: if Tyrant isn't actually a top MK, then feel free to ignore me. I know the MK mains take misinformation about their character pretty seriously, which I respect.
 
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BunbUn129

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Does MK beat Mario? Both Tyrant and...some other top MK who had their matchup list posted a couple of pages back had it as a MK disadvantage (Tyrant) or even/slight disadvantage (the other MK)

edit: if Tyrant isn't actually a top MK, then feel free to ignore me. I know the MK mains take misinformation about their character pretty seriously, which I respect.
It's one of the more debatable MU's, but AFAIK, most MK mains consider it even at worst. Mario loses for the same reasons as Pikachu: problems KOing. MK can live to ludicrous damages in both MU's (watch Tyrant and Jband against ESAM and they live till 150% with ease). Pre-patch, MK could kill both these characters at stupidly low damages due to rage. Post-patch, with the up air combo being less reliable, they don't get punished as hard, but now they have a harder time winning neutral as a result of the fair buff. And even now, MK in theory has much better KOing ability. And MK can still punish with highly damaging combos even after the nerf (the bair jab lock is actually easier to do now).

Edit: MK's MU spread goes all over the place, because of how deadly his punishes were. He basically "transcended" MU's. You're going to here opinions vary more than other characters.
 
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Radical Larry

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I woudln't be too sure about this, ally was supposed to pick up Shiek Zss Cloud and Marth at different points, I guess he sort of started to use cloud. That being said, I think Ally is the type of player who could really shine with Greninja.



Greninja has several kill setups from Dtilt DThrow Dahs Attack etc. Ally is refering to a Vine Some (Top Japanese Greninja) posted.
https://twitter.com/consomme_5/status/710332733533380608

I guess Greninja's Back air can be canceled into tilts for Ko setups due to less Landing Lag,
Ah, if that is the case, I will see what I can necessarily find about these setups and see if I can't debunk them as either average to bad DI or confirm them as either 50/50 or actual confirms. Wouldn't many different confirms just depend on the positioning, DI, SDI and if the opponent techs or dodges? If that's the case, some of these can only be confirms in certain situations, with some being risky.

If his B-Air is able to be canceled into tilts, I think opponents all need to try teching the attack if they start coming down. Would that not work? Or DI'ing away?

But if Ally was meant to pick up those other four characters, who's to say he just won't pick up the frog?
 

Ulevo

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So I am seeing a lot of pretty goofy talk about Meta Knight since the patch hit. I had my initial impressions but I have had a chance to play him and have collected my thoughts after labbing and playtesting.

Meta Knight is objectively worse as a character. Anyone believing otherwise is delusional. I will elaborate as to the exact reasons.

The way that Meta Knight operated pre-patch was to use specific set ups or combos at 0% to damage the opponent into a true kill window so that when a confirm was hit, Meta Knight would instantly kill them. People had some misconceptions about this combo so I will provide some insight.

Using Sheik as an example, she died to dash attack 1 (sweet spot) at exactly 31-32 on a Final Destination ceiling. She died to dash attack 3 (the tail end) at 28. From up tilt 2 (the hilt) it was 33-35. If the Meta Knight ever attempted the combo outside these windows, it would fail, or succeed because the opponent was bad.

As a general rule, this combo never worked in these windows if the initial confirm was DI'd in any way. This is why up tilt 2 as a confirm, or any confirm out of down tilt locks, were not reliable. It also almost never worked on Battlefield ceilings without the assistance of platforms, and Town & City would either extend the window slightly or patch up 'holes' in percentages the combo would fail at.

To give an example of this, Sheik would never die on Battlefield from dash attack 1 if proper DI was used. In contrast, using Rosalina, she would die to dash attack 1 on Final Destination from 8-9, and 11-15, but would only die at 10 if she held away. This is because you could no longer connect 6 up airs, and 5 was not enough to kill if you held away on the 5th up air. Town & City remedied this, making the true window 8-15.

So the goal before would be to use confirms and optimal or sub optimal combos to get these characters into these ranges. The issue is that if the opponent knew the windows, like my local players do, it could be quite difficult to land the kill confirm because the options on what tools you choose become limited to one or two options.

People perceived this combo to be stronger than it was because people looked at threads like this and assumed they were real, or would watch Abadango body people on stream who have clearly never labbed against this combo before. The truth of the matter is that against most characters, the window was often 1%, sometimes 2-3%. i.e. Zero Suit should only ever die to dash attack 1 at 39, Fox at 35, Luigi at 22, Mario at 32-33. Et cetera.

This make successful use of this combo at high level play difficult should the player be informed. For example, if I was ever in a ditto, I knew that if I was hit with a sweet spot dash attack from 30 or less, holding away would allow me to escape. 34 or later, all I needed to do was hold in, and DI the Shuttle Loop and last up air away, and I would survive.

However, even in high level play, this string was vital. Why? Because it meant Meta Knight did not have to rely on his Shuttle Loop as a form of damage and could get consistent damage off in the mid game.

Meta Knight has four main kill confirms at higher percents: dash attack/forward throw, down tilt, Shuttle Loop, and up smash. They kill in that proceeding order.

If I want to kill Sheik, pre-patch, I would play out the neutral and try and get her to about 28-35 and land the appropriate confirm based on which % she was in. Preferably sweet spot dash attack since this was the safest, so 31-32. From there, if the combo failed, I would tack on at least 40%, and she would be at roughly 70%. Sheik dies to dash attack to Shuttle Loop starting at 90%, so basically I would just need to tack on 20% and she was ready to die.

The problem now is you cannot link up airs anymore. People are saying you can, but they're wrong and train against CPU's and toddlers. The only characters you can link consecutive up airs against are characters like Rosalina, Pit, Olimar, Peach, etc. Floaties that do not go into tumble animation when their true window hits. These characters will still die. However, characters like Fox, Mario, Zero Suit, Cloud, Bayonetta (i.e. Most of the best characters) literally hold down or down and away after getting hit with dash attack and you can only confirm one up air. The gifys you're seeing with this down air to down air crap are nonsense.

So why is this important? Basically players now need to use one up air to Shuttle Loop as their primary source of damage. Dash attack, up air, Shuttle Loop does 22%, while previously it did 40%+. That is a huge damage nerf. The biggest issue is that when Sheik finally gets to 90%, and Shuttle Loop is in the stale move que several times, she likely will not die at 90%. The window for this confirm is narrow, about 15% or so, so Meta Knight cannot afford to use it at the wrong time or percent because if he does he is now past that window and has to fish for down tilt set ups which can be teched and raw up smashes.

The combos Amadeus9 Amadeus9 posted are just signs of community optimism, but these were never combos Meta Knight could not do before, and they do not solve the problem that now Meta Knight does not have a reliable means to damage the opponent post 35% without staling Shuttle Loop. He could always manage early % damage fine.

The other problem is that now Shuttle Loop as a kill from up air is very inconsistent. Because of the angle the up air sends opponents at, and the large area the Shuttle Loop sweet spot occupies, it is very difficult and sometimes impossible to land a Shuttle Loop without hitting the sweet spot. This is bad because since the base knock back on the sweet spot is so strong, the opponent simply DI's the Shuttle Loop and they fly away from the 2nd hit. Basically, you are punished for landing your combo. And since Meta Knight goes into special fall, and many of these characters are fast fallers, he is going to eat some damage or die much of the time.

This was quite frankly a very poor change. The characters that got ***** by Meta Knight are still going to get ***** by Meta Knight because they do not go into tumble animation, meanwhile Meta Knight's gameplay has become less rewarding and inconsistent. To top it off, his RCO lag on Shuttle Loop is still not fixed.

The major benefits of this patch are that Sheik is no longer a problem (6-4 pre-patch) and Battlefield is a very good stage now. But this does not mean he came out ahead. Most of the cast are now much better against him, and he has likely acquired new bad match ups. i.e. The reason Ryu was even before was because it was feast or famine. If Ryu did not get you to 76 and kill you with TSRK, he was dying at 35-36. Now, Meta Knight has to get him 102/68 and fear a move that does 18% and is invincible.

Is he bad? Nah. Are people being dumb when talking about him? Yeah, pretty much.
 

PK Gaming

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Oh, that's good actually. I haven't checked the other thread yet. Still, more good news for Corrin players/more proof that they didn't get hurt that badly, lol

Thanks for the info!
Uair is still weaker than before, but not by much, haha.

Also I don't think her aerial combos were made stricter at all (if anything, they should be easier...), though i'll give it a test when I get home.
 
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Jalil

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Ah, if that is the case, I will see what I can necessarily find about these setups and see if I can't debunk them as either average to bad DI or confirm them as either 50/50 or actual confirms. Wouldn't many different confirms just depend on the positioning, DI, SDI and if the opponent techs or dodges? If that's the case, some of these can only be confirms in certain situations, with some being risky.

If his B-Air is able to be canceled into tilts, I think opponents all need to try teching the attack if they start coming down. Would that not work? Or DI'ing away?

But if Ally was meant to pick up those other four characters, who's to say he just won't pick up the frog?
You can't tech the first and second hit of bair cuz they lock you in place without puting you in a tech chase situation but they have enough hitstun to true combo into some stuff. Di won't do much either
 

Radical Larry

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You can't tech the first and second hit of bair cuz they lock you in place without puting you in a tech chase situation but they have enough hitstun to true combo into some stuff. Di won't do much either
Wouldn't you want to try using the attack getup option if the Greninja player whiffs something?

Speaking of attack getup options, can anyone clarify how many times they're used in actual tournaments? I haven't necessarily seen much of them in tournament matches I watch; I may not be seeing much matches that DO have them, if that's the case.
 

bc1910

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^What are you talking about? You cannot tech the setups, you're not put into tumble hitstun. You can DI the Dtilt one but not the Utilt one.

Anyway, Greninja Bair 1 > Fsmash is really good actually lol. Starts working on most characters around 20% earlier than Uthrow will kill and works from any range of Bair 1, including fading Bair 1. Bair 1 can also trip making this even more consistent.
 

Jalil

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Wouldn't you want to try using the attack getup option if the Greninja player whiffs something?

Speaking of attack getup options, can anyone clarify how many times they're used in actual tournaments? I haven't necessarily seen much of them in tournament matches I watch; I may not be seeing much matches that DO have them, if that's the case.
1st and 2nd hit of bair doesn't put the opponent on the ground in tumble, it just has enough hitstun to lock them in place and allow for a follow up. Think of it like sheik dragging you down with up air.
 
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Amadeus9

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You don't need the death combo for MK to be a good character. You are only thinking of uair in the context of netting kills. Thats not the right perspective. You can net extremely damaging combos that dont kill if you keep the combos low and fast fall hits, and these combos work on everyone.

Yes. Mk is a slightly worse character overall.

However, our fair is now a good option to use in neutral, and most of our bad matchups are now better matchups.

How will MK do in the future? idk i cant read the future. He probably hasnt dropped much viablity-wise, however. In fact, Im not sure he will drop much at all, besides there being less mk mains now.

Time will tell.

I personally am rather enjoying my new neutral tools. Regardless of how mk does in the future, Im sticking with him because of it, theres a newfound spark of inspiration for me. And I was considering dropping mk prepatch.
 

Ulevo

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You don't need the death combo for MK to be a good character. You are only thinking of uair in the context of netting kills. Thats not the right perspective. You can net extremely damaging combos that dont kill if you keep the combos low and fast fall hits, and these combos work on everyone.

Yes. Mk is a slightly worse character overall.

However, our fair is now a good option to use in neutral, and most of our bad matchups are now better matchups.

How will MK do in the future? idk i cant read the future. He probably hasnt dropped much viablity-wise, however. In fact, Im not sure he will drop much at all, besides there being less mk mains now.

Time will tell.

I personally am rather enjoying my new neutral tools. Regardless of how mk does in the future, Im sticking with him because of it, theres a newfound spark of inspiration for me. And I was considering dropping mk prepatch.
I was not thinking about up air in the context of netting kills. The take home message was that he can no longer use a combo that nets 40%+ consistently that keeps your primary kill move fresh.

You can land damaging combos at low %, but mid %'s this changes post-patch, and not only do a lot of the combos you demonstrated not work, they are at early %, not mid range where it matters. You do not need elaborate strings at 0%. Dash attack to Mach Tornado works on 95% of the roster and does 28-29%. Forward throw combos do 30%+. Down throw combos do 26-30%+. None of these are brand new thanks to the up air change, they all worked in V1.1.4

Forward air is bad. Using a frame 16 landing lag move in neutral while being baited out by a perfect pivot is not going to be Meta Knight's saving grace. It's a nice gesture that does not address the actual problem.
 
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Amadeus9

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Have you even used forward air? Are you aware that it confirms combos at almost every percent range? Including into death combos at mid-high percent? Which just so happens to be the range that mks combos leave people at? (even more so with platforms. MK gains absurdities on DL and BF)

Also, you keep saying that this stuff is untrue/doesnt work. You fail to understand what is gained by these combos 100%. The have tight links but when they dont link they link well enough that jumps are eaten, and the nature of these combos being close to the ground means that airdodging puts you on the ground, with lag. Mk can just drop and grab/utilt/dash attack, and reset entirely.

But then again I am talking to the person who swore that bair locking was a bad option the entire time abadango, ito and others were abusing it to net big wins.
 

BunbUn129

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Have you even used forward air? Are you aware that it confirms combos at almost every percent range? Including into death combos at mid-high percent? Which just so happens to be the range that mks combos leave people at? (even more so with platforms. MK gains absurdities on DL and BF)

Also, you keep saying that this stuff is untrue/doesnt work. You fail to understand what is gained by these combos 100%. The have tight links but when they dont link they link well enough that jumps are eaten, and the nature of these combos being close to the ground means that airdodging puts you on the ground, with lag. Mk can just drop and grab/utilt/dash attack, and reset entirely.

But then again I am talking to the person who swore that bair locking was a bad option the entire time abadango, ito and others were abusing it to net big wins.
Guys, I don't know whose right or wrong at this point. But I can say this: I think we can't benefit anything more off this debate without substantial evidence from the high-level. Landiego is starting in a while, and Ito will be there, and we will see MK in full action.

I took a primary role in giving observations and discussing the MK nerfs, but now I realize we're all just theorycrafting and poking at one another. We need tourney matches from Ito, Leo, and Tyrant and we can finally draw conclusions.

Sheik got 3 times as many nerfs and people aren't sure exactly how badly these hurt her.
 
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bc1910

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Forward air is bad. Using a frame 16 landing lag move in neutral while being baited out by a perfect pivot is not going to be Meta Knight's saving grace. It's a nice gesture that does not address the actual problem.
Do you have any more of these reality bites? There're a lot of hungry MK mains to feed.
 
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