Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Dusk Pit]

Does Pit's f-tilt kill at 90% at like, center stage?

Does Marth's?

 

[Shaya]

I think Bayonetta's existance is pretty painful for cloud. He is witch timeable, gimpable, and crouch->perfectshield -> life is pain combo'able.

Wouldn't all those essentially apply to everyone bar his more pronounced 'gimpable'?
Swords are good things against Bay. I think you need more of an argument than that. A reference of it being played at above mid level would help, I'm sure some exists.

Does Marth's?

Not really, no.
A bit of rage and near a ledge it can though.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Emblem Lord

Beyond Sheik what are Cloud's losing matchups iyo?

Cloud could be bad news for the metagame. Results against ZSS are already in his favor [Tweek > Nairo, Nariyasu > Choco and M2K > Dakpo are the notable results] and on paper he just seems to exactly be the kind of character to counter Rosalina. If he loses to Sheik as convincingly as I believe he does ... the whole metagame might start to polarize towards Sheik even more.

 

[Diddy Kong]

How does Diddy fare against Corrin and Bayonetta?

 

[TriTails]

Marth's Nair and Fair are so braindead to tipper now. All at the same time they added power. It's really sad, actually. To keep his disfunctionality the same while overloading his already good moves.

I don't get it when Lancer start comparing Pit every character in the game (most commonly the FE crew). I just ignore it at this point. The "gee, reminds me of someone" was an extremely rediculous statement and had it been a few months ago, I would have replied to it.

Probably because your main is the most comfortable character you talk about.

But his previous implying of Corrin's N-air being not great pretty much has told me to stay away from him until he can get his bias out and start looking at the character. He was the only one doubting Corrin before release and still does even though the character clearly has some stupid, soul hurting moves as of now.

**** F-smash.

 

[irokex13]

Emblem Lord

Beyond Sheik what are Cloud's losing matchups iyo?

Cloud could be bad news for the metagame. Results against ZSS are already in his favor [Tweek > Nairo, Nariyasu > Choco and M2K > Dakpo are the notable results] and on paper he just seems to exactly be the kind of character to counter Rosalina. If he loses to Sheik as convincingly as I believe he does ... the whole metagame might start to polarize towards Sheik even more.

I've personally found the following MUs to be a bit difficult to win as Cloud (I find harder than because Electroshock threatens Cloud's landing options more than the Upperdash Arm). Take this with a grain of salt though, as I am not a high level player.

 

[teddystalin]

Cloud could be bad news for the metagame. Results against ZSS are already in his favor [Tweek > Nairo, Nariyasu > Choco and M2K > Dakpo are the notable results] and on paper he just seems to exactly be the kind of character to counter Rosalina.

Alternatively, Komo's cloud has gotten bopped by both Marss and Nairo. The jury is still very much out on this one.

 

[FullMoon]

Personally I feel that the 4BR tier list is already outdated. iirc Toon Link has been getting alot of success as of late, and would Greninja count as a swordsman?

Greninja is honorary swordsman at best considering only 4 of his moves use a sword. He plays like a mixture of a brawler and a swordsman but with some zoner added in thanks to shurikens being amazing projectiles.

But if having 4 sword moves in your whole kit is enough to make you a swordsman, then I guess so.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I've personally found the following MUs to be a bit difficult to win as Cloud .

These matchups are generally at least "a bit difficult to win" for pretty much everybody. I'm specifically looking for character that Cloud is disadvantaged against.

Alternatively, Komo's cloud has gotten bopped by both Marss and Nairo. The jury is still very much out on this one.

Was under the impression that Komorikiri went Sonic against Marss as well. Good to know though.

 

[Y2Kay]

While we're talking about , can we talk about how bad the : is?

If you know All of Pikachu's kill setups, you live till ridiculously high percents. I just kinda play it safe and get as many punishesas possible . Next thing you know, I'm at 170% and kill you with a force palm at 60%.

I've once SDed at 20% and still managed to win, Aura screws over pikachu so badly.

It's just really ugly.

 

[Greward]

Cloud can platform camp sheik to charge limit on some stages. He might take some damage but sheik isn't that good at pressuring someone at a high platform. With limit I don't think this matchup is bad. He has huge range to trade (with high damage per hit) and very strong kill moves to abuse rage. Sheik shouldn't like cloud. In addition Cloud combos usually consist on sending someone up and following with some upairs, and with sheik's fall speed they are going to work.
Abadango made a tier list "vs Sheik" and put Cloud as second (just behind the sheik ditto). This was 1.1.3 tho, no bayo/corrin yet.

Cloud doesn't have that much results in America, but I have to say that in Japan is second only to Sheik. In locals cloud popularity is skyrocketing because of how easy he's to play + how good he is.
Imo it's about time he's considered not only for A tier, but for S tier as well. It might take some time in America tho since he lacks top players.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Emblem Lord

Beyond Sheik what are Cloud's losing matchups iyo?

Cloud could be bad news for the metagame. Results against ZSS are already in his favor [Tweek > Nairo, Nariyasu > Choco and M2K > Dakpo are the notable results] and on paper he just seems to exactly be the kind of character to counter Rosalina. If he loses to Sheik as convincingly as I believe he does ... the whole metagame might start to polarize towards Sheik even more.

I mean.....define this for me. Lose on stage? No one really does. Sheik has to run. She can't go to toe with him. She has to rely on violating him off-stage. Bayo can do the same. They both do it consistently.

On-stage I legit feel he bodies almost everyone under the sun. He always has an answer. He can counter poke basically everyone thanks to dash dance, pivot slide/jab, and cross-slash. Slide shuts down spaced SH buttons. And with limit his mobility and opportunities to punish sky rocket. Not to mention really stupid edgeguarding set-ups we have all seen by now.

As we have seen Cloud really isn't THAT easy to edgeguard. That HUGE sword makes everyone give pause. Sheik has alot of options and Bayo has witch time and her crazy dair, so they can consistently close stocks. Everyone else imo loses a little too hard on stage, gets bodied by Clouds edgeguarding even worse then vice-versa or sadly....both.

Sheik with her needles can simply choose to disengage. Run away and throw stuff and go for grabs when she sees a spot where Cloud is likely to want to shield. Bayo can attack from awkward angles thanks to dive kick and convert off her buttons well.

Everyone else???

idk...guys

Tho I would much rather lose to Cloud then Sheik.

Seriously have you seen this dudes hair?

Gawdlike

 

[|RK|]

While we're talking about , can we talk about how bad the : is?

If you know All of Pikachu's kill setups, you live till ridiculously high percents. I just kinda play it save and get as many punishesas possible . Next thing you know, I'm at 170% and kill you with a force palm at 60%.

I've once SDed at 20% and still managed to win, Aura screws over pikachu so badly.

It's just really ugly.

Mmhm. Lucario has saved me in the Pikachu matchup. Then I switched back to Kirby and got bodied.

Maan, I don't think Kirby is a bad character, but I realize that in order to be *really good* in this game, you need something dumb. The issue with Kirby is that you really do need to constantly outplay your opponent.

Unlike other Kirby's here, I can see how Kirby can beat/go even with Fox/ZSS. In the case of the former, it's one read that can take you from 0 to 70, and in the latter, you can actually cut off options with smart crouching and punish her more often (please don't reduce this to "crouching is everything" - not what I'm saying). For many other characters, though, you have to get in many, many times in order to do real damage and to kill. There are no brain-dead kill setups, and Uthrow is more of a stock cap than anything. At a certain point (especially against characters with projectiles), you realize how much more you have to think in order to get in *once*. It's especially draining when you're behind (if you're ahead and you have a projectile, go ahead and play more passively - you've earned it!), because you still need to pick your moments very, very carefully as while they dance around you.

None of that makes Kirby a terrible character, IMO... but damn is he limited. If you can get in consistently, and you know when you can fall back, you'll do fine. But you really have to *play* all three states, *especially* neutral (against many characters).

Yeesh.

 

[Megamang]

Wouldn't all those essentially apply to everyone bar his more pronounced 'gimpable'?
Swords are good things against Bay. I think you need more of an argument than that. A reference of it being played at above mid level would help, I'm sure some exists.




Not really, no.
A bit of rage and near a ledge it can though.

The gimpable is huge, and she is incredible at it.

I mean he is easier to WTime than most characters. With his huge mobility and sword, he often can choose his engagements in a way you know exactly what is about to happen but can't challenge it. Witch time means those attacks are actually risky. The way Cloud's aerials swing high to low makes low profile crouches into powershield strong, and the end game for combos is offstage which is often death

Heel slide kick is good in this MU for landings.


This is all theory.

 

[FullMoon]

I actually hate dealing with Cloud more than I hate Sheik and that says a lot considering who I main. I don't think the MU is that bad but damn is Cloud frustrating to deal with.

 

[Y2Kay]

I still find sheik harder, but yeah Cloud's a real pain. It seems like a good MU on paper too, it's so strange. I just have a hard time racking up damage with that big sword in the way.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

The thing with Cloud is that his range / hitbox size plus aerial mobility combined allow him to space and poke shields as if he were a Brawl character. Except that options out of shield in Smash 4 aren't even half as good as Brawl's.

 

[R3D3MON]

How does Diddy fare against Corrin and Bayonetta?

I don't have much knowledge on Diddy vs. Corrin, but I think Diddy may actually do very well against Bayo. The recent Xanadu match between Pink Fresh and Diddy shows that Diddy can use his banana and peanut gun to great effect for stage control. Also diddy's mobility allos him to quickly weave in and out of Bayo's zone. It also shows that if Bayo cannot kill early, then Diddy can quickly make the percents back up with his excellent combos and setups off of banana, d-throw/up-throw, d-tilt, and fair. Also rage-induced Diddy can probably kill Bayo with his own setups before Bayo does, even if the Diddy player has more percentage.

The only problem I see with Diddy vs. Bayo is offstage. Her dair, nair, and witch time may severely mess up Diddy's rocket barrels, which are already easy to gimp for various characters in top and high tiers.

I would love to see a match between ZeRo vs. high level Bayo player, or a match between MVD vs. high level Bayo player.

 

[Big-Cat]

I think Bayonetta's existance is pretty painful for cloud. He is witch timeable, gimpable, and crouch->perfectshield -> life is pain combo'able.

If you ask me, Bayonetta's existence pretty much pointed out how weak many players actually are.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Why are majority of the complicated characters bad

 

[Universe303]

I think I know what you're saying, but care to explain?
Is it about the neutral or something

Erm..... well it's

Down-B and the fairly easy combos to make with Side and Up B. Oh and also allowing her to have a double Up-B. Basically even though there are TONS of combos Bayonetta can make, most people use the most basic ones...



SSB4 Mains:
--------------------------------------

I still find sheik harder, but yeah Cloud's a real pain. It seems like a good MU on paper too, it's so strange. I just have a hard time racking up damage with that big sword in the way.

Cloud I think is just to fast of a character and also to have massive range and powerful kill moves (Not just Finishing Touch)
Ike and Shulk at the very least have a noticeable weakness whether it's laggy kill moves or incredibly poor frame data.

 

[RedBeefBaron]

How does Diddy fare against Corrin and Bayonetta?

Signs point to he beats them both.

He has a great kit for dealing with Bayonetta. Peels safely confirm into damage and kills from outside of witch time's range. His frame data beats hers handily. She has the zero suit combo of tall frame and light weight that Diddy loves. Edgeguarding is an issue and he probably loses off stage but his mobility mixups help as always. Once you learn to sdi witch twist and tech dair she doesn't have an easy time killing him. He can kill lightweights with big frames pretty easy. Banana pluck stops dive kick for good measure.

Corrin seems like she doesn't have the mobility or reward to hold her ground against Diddy like Marth does. Poor mobility means she can't juggle him well or get to the range she wants as easy. Her burst movement is not as good in this matchup because of how much space Diddy controls. And her sweet spot kill moves don't have huge sweeping hitboxes like Marth's so it's much harder to land them against Diddy's bait and switch mobility. And Marth has more power anyway. Seeing as Marth most likely still slightly loses to Diddy (even if there's now zero margin for error) I'm not seeing how Corrin doesn't lose pretty soundly. It's just about playing very defensively and not challenging swords carelessly.

 

[LancerStaff]

Still telling lies about Corrin, huh.

In any case, it should be obvious to anyone who isn't irrationally biased, but Corrin's Forward Smash is one of the best in the game. It's a tool she can actually use in neutral, and it's a nasty ledge guarder.

Stop expecting kernels of truth from someone who clearly hasn't played the character for any amount of time worth sharing.

It's basically like if I talked about how viable Pac Man is despite knowing literally nothing about how he works, or how viable Mega Man is if I was asked about him, I wouldn't know! I just don't act like I do, either =P.

Sheash... I ment that it's so you can't land a tipper up close. With Marth, chances are that if you're in a position to hit at all you can probably land a tipper.

Though I question how safe it is in neutral since it extends his hurtbox and it's applications offstage since it's beat out by anything stronger then a windbox.

Pit's normals are pretty different from Marth's, and I'd argue most of them are worse. Does Pit's f-tilt kill at 90% at like, center stage? And Marth's nair, ooooh that move is crispy. Pit wishes he could kill as early as Marth.

There's a lot of things Pit would like from Marth, but there's also plenty Marth would want from Pit. Like a functional DA or a Dsmash that both comes out sooner and has 14 frames less endlag*. According to Kuroganehammer Marth's FAF is 55, not sure if that's correct as of last patch.

Wasn't saying Pit's normals were better, though I think they're more equal.

I don't get it when Lancer starts comparing Pit to every character in the game (most commonly the FE crew). I just ignore it at this point. The "gee, reminds me of someone" was an extremely rediculous statement and had it been a few months ago, I would have replied to it.

I really don't see the problem...

Dunno, you shouldn't have to talk behind my back right in front of me.

 

[Big-Cat]

Why are majority of the complicated characters bad

Who are these complicated characters?

 

[HeavyLobster]

Who are these complicated characters?

and are the only ones that strike me as particularly bad. Most of them are more along the lines of and , decent characters who get lost in the midtier crowd.

 

[bc1910]

Cloud is extremely dangerous. And yes, he's like a Brawl character in S4 in a scary number of ways. Anyone familiar with both games will know why this is problematic.

I really don't see the problem...

Dunno, you shouldn't have to talk behind my back right in front of me.

You're not wrong in what you said, but this isn't the thread for callouts like this. He posted in a public forum; it's hardly talking behind your back.

Let's not turn this into something out of Mean Girls.

 

[Mister M]

Those

and are the only ones that strike me as particularly bad. Most of them are more along the lines of and , decent characters who get lost in the midtier crowd.

Those characters arent particularly complicated, just non conventional to smash. Or rather, non conventional for smash 64/melee. Smash 4 seems to aim to have characters that require quite different streams of button presses.

Other characters that require a different mindset to learn but see success are ryu and bayonetta. Complex characters that are overall, top tier. The characters you mentioned are just reletively under tuned. If mega man's pellets did like x3 more damage, I reckon he'd be as scary as ryu.

Edit: I misread the tone of the quoted post. I agree with its notions.

 

[Tri Knight]

Cloud I think is just to fast of a character and also to have massive range and powerful kill moves (Not just Finishing Touch)
Ike and Shulk at the very least have a noticeable weakness whether it's laggy kill moves or incredibly poor frame data.

Not to mention he's more than heavy enough to tank hard hits. The only thing that is really lacking is his recovery, and even then it's not as bad in practice, unless of course you get gimped but that usually goes for a lot of the cast. He was made perfectly enough to have an option for just about everything.

Now that we're on the subject, any thoughts on Cloud and ZSS?

 

[C0rvus]

Those


Those characters arent particularly complicated, just non conventional to smash. Or rather, non conventional for smash 64/melee. Smash 4 seems to aim to have characters that require quite different streams of button presses.

Other characters that require a different mindset to learn but see success are ryu and bayonetta. Complex characters that are overall, top tier. The characters you mentioned are just reletively under tuned. If mega man's pellets did like x3 more damage, I reckon he'd be as scary as ryu.

See, I disagree with your view. Bayonetta and Ryu's difficulty are overstated. If anything, a good chunk of Duck Hunt, Shulk, and Pac Man's difficulty come from their lack of overtuned or low-commitment options. Their moves are strictly worse than better characters' on top of being somewhat unintuitive.
Ryu's tools can be applied very creatively and he can really be pushed to a technical extreme (I mean, look at Hooded). But at the same time he has some very safe bread and butters that work well. Since there is less of a need to deviate from those tools that I find it hard to consider them difficult from a baseline perspective.

Of course, this all assumes this isn't top level. EVERYONE is very hard to succeed with at top level, since it becomes less and less about the characters, and more about your opponent, since your character should be second nature to a top level player.

 

[Vipermoon]

Signs point to be beats them both.

He has a great kit for dealing with Bayonetta. Peels safely confirm into damage and kills from outside of witch time's range. His frame data beats hers handily. She has the zero suit combo of tall frame and light weight that Diddy loves. Edgeguarding is an issue and he probably loses off stage but his mobility mixups help as always. Once you learn to sdi witch twist and tech dair she doesn't have an easy time killing him. He can kill lightweights with big frames pretty easy. Banana pluck stops dive kick for good measure.

Corrin seems like she doesn't have the mobility or reward to hold her ground against Diddy like Marth does. Poor mobility means she can't juggle him well or get to the range she wants as easy. Her burst movement is not as good in this matchup because of how much space Diddy controls. And her sweet spot kill moves don't have huge sweeping hitboxes like Marth's so it's much harder to land them against Diddy's bait and switch mobility. And Marth has more power anyway. Seeing as Marth most likely still slightly loses to Diddy (even if there's now zero margin for error) I'm not seeing how Corrin doesn't lose pretty soundly. It's just about playing very defensively and not challenging swords carelessly.

Marth gets destroyed by Diddy. He still has no answer to Banana and Fair, and no easy solution to Monkey Flip.

 

[Locke 06]

Other characters that require a different mindset to learn but see success are ryu and bayonetta. Complex characters that are overall, top tier. The characters you mentioned are just reletively under tuned. If mega man's pellets did like x3 more damage, I reckon he'd be as scary as ryu.

If you gave him 6% pellets, he'd be much scarier than Ryu. Just think about it.

 

[PK Gaming]

How does Diddy fare against Corrin and Bayonetta?

Diddy seems difficult, but beatable for Corrin. Ryuga ran an impressive set against Zinoto in winners finals at Landlocked, beating him 3-2.

Zinoto managed to run it back at GF and win the whole thing, but it was still a good initial showing of that matchup at high levels.

 

[Mario766]

Cloud's really easy to edgeguard...for some characters. Others have to work a lot harder.

 

[RedBeefBaron]

Marth gets destroyed by Diddy. He still has no answer to Banana and Fair, and no easy solution to Monkey Flip.

That's a pretty serious exaggeration. Marth's out of sheild options are fine for punishing fair and flip if they're used too much and Marth should be camping shield to beat peels and bait the flip anyway.

Its hardly unwinnable for Marth. His disjoints beat all of Diddy's moves and he can kill so much earlier. Juggles him really hard too. Diddy just wins because of how much more safety he has.

 

[TurboLink]

Marth gets destroyed by Diddy. He still has no answer to Banana and Fair, and no easy solution to Monkey Flip.

He can't try catching the Banana and a spaced Nair/Fair doesn't help against Diddy's Fair?

That's a pretty serious exaggeration. Marth's out of sheild options are fine for punishing fair and flip if they're used too much and Marth should be camping shield to beat peels and bait the flip anyway.

Its hardly unwinnable for Marth. His disjoints beat all of Diddy's moves and he can kill so much earlier. Juggles him really hard too. Diddy just wins because of how much more safety he has.

I don't understand. How does Diddy get juggled hard when he has Monkey Flip?

Cloud is extremely dangerous. And yes, he's like a Brawl character in S4 in a scary number of ways. Anyone familiar with both games will know why this is problematic.



You're not wrong in what you said, but this isn't the thread for callouts like this. He posted in a public forum; it's hardly talking behind your back.

Let's not turn this into something out of Mean Girls.

Can you explain it to me? I wasn't here for Brawl.

 

[RedBeefBaron]

He can't try catching the Banana and a spaced Nair/Fair doesn't help against Diddy's Fair?



I don't understand. How does Diddy get juggled hard when he has Monkey Flip?

Because monkey flip doesn't guarantee a safe landing at a high level. People who know the matchup can follow it on reaction, and then just stand in between the two places you can land with the reverse and wait. If your character has good foot speed and fast disjoints like Marth its not a free landing at all.

Diddy's flip has no invincibility, more startup and is a bigger commitment in general compared to bf or flip kick. The reversals great but it's less effective against people who know how it works.

Edit: Re reading this it comes off the page kind of mean, that wasn't the intention.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I think the most peculiar part about Sheik vs. Cloud is that despite it being likely his worst MU it is still realistically winnable. Bayonetta vs. Cloud is the same way except I think he deals with her a little easier than Sheik because the lack of Needles and being able to stuff her approaches if he plays smart (although the awkward angles don't help.)

His real only weaknesses is like, offstage (where it's not even incredibly bad). This is eerily familiar to another strong character I can recollect but only loosely, obviously =3. Just something worth thinking about, though!

Who would've thought when he came out that he'd be this good? I had some faith but man.....it helps that in Japan he's pretty dominant and strong (usually places over a lot of strong Sheiks).

Insofar as how the MU actually is, I'm reminded of Mr. R vs. Komorikiri. Yes Komo lost but he almost made an entire comeback at like 150% after losing 1 stock to a 0 to death. Makes me feel like at a high level that the MU is actually quite volatile and scary, Mr. R clutched it out but you could tell he was worried about Limit Cloud haha. But to achieve that kind of momentum vs. a really good Sheik after losing an entire stock for free? Hmm...

IMO the absolute most ridiculous thing about Cloud is that his mobility and his frame data let him play fully reactionary in the mid and close range areas with more consistent damage output than most other sword characters while also being safe. His neutral is simply incredible period. He juggles people for days and has ways to simply close stocks.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

So when are we banning Bayonetta?

The character is four times the character Meta Knight ever was.

 

[Diddy Kong]

So Cloud and Bayonetta are undeniable going to be treats in the future Top Tier metagame? I still think Diddy's matchup against Sheik is way better than theirs. But I'll sip my tea on that one.

Also, Diddy vs Marth was already in Diddy's favor in Brawl, when Marth was stronk as ****. It was still easily one of Marth's hardest matchups. His tilts and Smashes' range means nothing when you have a banana and, indeed fast spacing aerials as F-Air, and even B-Air. Grabs will rack up damage to, and even if edge guarding is an issue, Diddy will make getting stage control as Marth a living hell due to his awesome neutral.

Marth loses this about 40-60, he has options, and tipper kills dangerously early for Diddy. But good luck getting hits in the first place.

 

[TurboLink]

So when are we banning Bayonetta?

The character is four times the character Meta Knight ever was.

Exaggeration? If not then explain please.