Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Cutie Gwen]

Can Wii Fit Trainer be discussed? She's a character that's almost never used, but from what I heard, is pretty good. I'd love to see this thread's thoughts on Smash's Hamon user

 

[FeelMeUp]

I think WFT is perfectly average but is an amazing example of hitboxes that were made too well.
and is an odd case of a character that isn't ruined by other character's moves, but their proportions and speed.

Something interesting I've been thinking about for the past 3 days or so:
I think NAKAT will majorly upset a top(possibly top 10) player at a tournament he attends soon. Do not sleep on this man.

 

[my_T]

Something interesting I've been thinking about for the past 3 days or so:
I think NAKAT will majorly upset a top(possibly top 10) player at a tournament he attends soon. Do not sleep on this man.

His fox is pretty legit.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Something interesting I've been thinking about for the past 3 days or so:
I think NAKAT will majorly upset a top(possibly top 10) player at a tournament he attends soon. Do not sleep on this man.

His "campy" Fox he was using against Ally was working out extremely well, ever since seeing that I cant sleep on him

Something I think is extremely underrated is projectile edgeguarding. Things like DH can, Peach's turnips, Link/TL bombs, Diddy's banana (surpisingly), and Luma (surprisingly) aren't being used enough for edgeguarding. DH for instance is often overlooked because of his lack of kill power, but after playing him a little I've realized how insanely good his can can be for edgeguarding and securing kills. He can use it to force airdodges and spike you right afterwards as a punish, combo into a spike. or outright kill offstage. Diddy can do the same thing with Bananas and Link/TL (although he basically killshimself at the same time) can do it with bombs. Peach can do a ****load of offstage combos with float and turnips and Rosa doesn't even have to go offstage, she can just hold Luma at the ledge and jab

 

[FeelMeUp]

His "campy" Fox he was using against Ally was working out extremely well, ever since seeing that I cant sleep on him

Something I think is extremely underrated is projectile edgeguarding. Things like DH can, Peach's turnips, Link/TL bombs, Diddy's banana (surpisingly), and Luma (surprisingly) aren't being used enough for edgeguarding. DH for instance is often overlooked because of his lack of kill power, but after playing him a little I've realized how insanely good his can can be for edgeguarding and securing kills. He can use it to force airdodges and spike you right afterwards as a punish, combo into a spike. or outright kill offstage. Diddy can do the same thing with Bananas and Link/TL (although he basically killshimself at the same time) can do it with bombs. Peach can do a ****load of offstage combos with float and turnips and Rosa doesn't even have to go offstage, she can just hold Luma at the ledge and jab

Another thing to note is that he took Kame to last stock last hit in a moneymatch the day or so before EVO.
and a quick reminder of what place Kame proceeded to get is probably not necessary.

I think run off reverse banana fair is actually kinda busted for Diddy going for 2 frames, btw. It's a solid part of what makes that matchup so bad.

edit: M2 matchup, sorry

 

[Baby_Sneak]

This. I think "C.Viper syndrome" might be more accurate, but that's enough Street Fighter talk for now.

Incidentally, I really appreciate how easy is to pick up a character in Smash Bros. I know people riff on Smash for that fact all the time, but I think it'd legitimately be devastated if I couldn't play using my favorites.

I think it's Better have diversity. I personally like hard characters.

 

[NegaNixx]

Hi

I'm just gonna copy and paste something I posted in the "Competitive" Facebook group.

"#3GNixxStats

Cloud's Results versus other top tiers (played by notable players) at Major Tournaments from EGLX (April 29th-May 1st) onwards. (EVO Minimally included)

Diddy Kong: 10-16 (39% Win Rate)
Fox: 2-3 (40% Win Rate)
Mario: 7-9 (44% Win Rate)
Mewtwo: 1-2 (33% Win Rate)
Rosalina & Luma: 5-11 (31% Win Rate)
Sheik: 1-3 (25% Win Rate)
Sonic: 9-4 (69% Win Rate)
Zero Suit Samus: 5-13 (39% Win Rate)

Cloud Players included: M2K, ZeRo, AnTi, Tweek, Komorikiri, Ned, James, Sodrek"

Compare this to Diddy...

"#3GNixxStats

Diddy Kong's Results versus other top tiers (played by notable players) at Major Tournaments from EGLX (April 29th-May 1st) onwards. (EVO Minimally included)

Cloud: 15-8 (65% Win Rate)
Fox: 17-20 (46% Win Rate)
Mario: 4-10 (29% Win Rate)
Mewtwo: 11-1 (92% Win Rate)
Rosalina & Luma: 9-9 (50% Win Rate)
Sheik: 9-6 (67% Win Rate)
Sonic: 9-1 (90% Win Rate)
Zero Suit Samus: 16-5 (76% Win Rate)

Diddy Kong Players included: ZeRo, Zinoto, Nietono, MVD, JJRockets"

My sample size is small. Only those listed as majors are included from April 29th onwards. I don't have access to Japanese brackets and I am not about EVO at the moment because I can't find a completed bracket. CEO is difficult with all the counterpicking but I added what I could from both.

Tournaments Used:

•EGLX (228)
•GOML (489)
•2GGT: MS (413)
•KTAR XVIII (339)
•Smash&Splash 2 (261)
•Apex 2016 (309)
•LTC4 (317)
•CEO2K16 (906)
•WTFox 2 (174)
•EVO2K16 (2663)
•2GGT KTAR Saga (414)
•Smash Factor 5 (359)

Point is Cloud is seriously lacking in results against other top level top tiers, yet is still talked about in the same echelon as top 3 along with Diddy who has much, much better match up results.

Results aren't the whole story mind you, but I'd like to think this is telling to Cloud's actual aptitude.

 

[Radical Larry]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

This is, by far, the worst MU chart in terms of titles. Just now do I understand it and it's actually quite accurate, bar Link in the MU (which I would say should be Volatile+). But apparently to hell with things like using 50:50 or 60:40 or something like that to give some indication of what goes where.

 

[FeelMeUp]

This is, by far, the worst MU chart in terms of titles. Just now do I understand it and it's actually quite accurate, bar Link in the MU (which I would say should be Volatile+). But apparently to hell with things like using 50:50 or 60:40 or something like that to give some indication of what goes where.

you're definitely nowhere near correct.
almost all of the "volatile but X" MUs are correct. i'd just put Pika to - and swap Corrin with Cloud.

 

[L9999]

This is, by far, the worst MU chart in terms of titles. Just now do I understand it and it's actually quite accurate, bar Link in the MU (which I would say should be Volatile+). But apparently to hell with things like using 50:50 or 60:40 or something like that to give some indication of what goes where.

I actally find Falln's MU chart interesting. Like those numbers don't tell much and directly advising on MUs you might get wrecked is neat. Dabuz's is the same style but more specific in his comments.

 

[Rizen]

IMO has an advantage vs , like falln said.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CpHAOtJUEAAgDIc.jpg
IDK if it's "counterpick" bad because Link can kill her early with a good read but that might be arguing semantics. Rosa has good tools to shut Link down. Transcendent halos on U/Dair and Utilt mess Link's normal plans of dropping bombs and using superior reach+ varying fall speed to cover landings. Luma is a huge pain for mid range zoning. Grav pull isn't too bad because bombs don't vanish and Zair but it helps luma not be sniped. Rosa has good burst options to break zoning when she has an opportunity, DA makes her hurtbox low to avoid Zair/projectiles and her dash grab is good. Rosa's very good at juggling and Link doesn't have his usual escapes. She is good at stopping Link's edge guards with her huge attacks and good at guarding him.

tl;dr Rosa does Rosa-things to Link.

 

[my_T]

Hi

I'm just gonna copy and paste something I posted in the "Competitive" Facebook group.

"#3GNixxStats

Cloud's Results versus other top tiers (played by notable players) at Major Tournaments from EGLX (April 29th-May 1st) onwards. (EVO Minimally included)

Diddy Kong: 10-16 (39% Win Rate)
Fox: 2-3 (40% Win Rate)
Mario: 7-9 (44% Win Rate)
Mewtwo: 1-2 (33% Win Rate)
Rosalina & Luma: 5-11 (31% Win Rate)
Sheik: 1-3 (25% Win Rate)
Sonic: 9-4 (69% Win Rate)
Zero Suit Samus: 5-13 (39% Win Rate)

Cloud Players included: M2K, ZeRo, AnTi, Tweek, Komorikiri, Ned, James, Sodrek"

Compare this to Diddy...

"#3GNixxStats

Diddy Kong's Results versus other top tiers (played by notable players) at Major Tournaments from EGLX (April 29th-May 1st) onwards. (EVO Minimally included)

Cloud: 15-8 (65% Win Rate)
Fox: 17-20 (46% Win Rate)
Mario: 4-10 (29% Win Rate)
Mewtwo: 11-1 (92% Win Rate)
Rosalina & Luma: 9-9 (50% Win Rate)
Sheik: 9-6 (67% Win Rate)
Sonic: 9-1 (90% Win Rate)
Zero Suit Samus: 16-5 (76% Win Rate)

Diddy Kong Players included: ZeRo, Zinoto, Nietono, MVD, JJRockets"

My sample size is small. Only those listed as majors are included from April 29th onwards. I don't have access to Japanese brackets and I am not about EVO at the moment because I can't find a completed bracket. CEO is difficult with all the counterpicking but I added what I could from both.

Tournaments Used:

•EGLX (228)
•GOML (489)
•2GGT: MS (413)
•KTAR XVIII (339)
•Smash&Splash 2 (261)
•Apex 2016 (309)
•LTC4 (317)
•CEO2K16 (906)
•WTFox 2 (174)
•EVO2K16 (2663)
•2GGT KTAR Saga (414)
•Smash Factor 5 (359)

Point is Cloud is seriously lacking in results against other top level top tiers, yet is still talked about in the same echelon as top 3 along with Diddy who has much, much better match up results.

Results aren't the whole story mind you, but I'd like to think this is telling to Cloud's actual aptitude.

If it's not too much to ask, can u do this for the other top tiers

 

[~ Gheb ~]

NegaNixx

When did that one win of Cloud over Sheik happen?

 

[Yikarur]

I have Leo's Cloud vs. Zeros Sheik in mind. (or Mew2Kings? not entirely sure)

 

[ARGHETH]

Wait, when did that happen?
GOML was all Diddy, right?

 

[Deleted member 269706]

I'm sure several of you have seen/heard about this by now, but someone is working on a visual mod which demonstrates hitbox visualization in game. I realize this isn't generally the place to talk about mods, however I believe this to be a reasonable exception. As many of us are aware, @Furil has been hard at work compiling animations of each fighter's hitboxes. This mod offers two distinct differences to Furil's work: It shows the hitboxes on Wii U models, but more importantly, it demonstrates them in game.

What's more is the designer is going a bit above hitbox visualization. They went so far as to add overlays for particular states, including counter active frames, invincibility frames, armor, etc. For those of you who play Melee and are familiar with the 20XX hack pack, this mod is similar to that in the way that you can select different overlays when undergoing particular conditions. To my knowledge, unlike the 20XX hack pack, you have no control over which overlays are and are not toggled on in this mod.

While Furil has supplied us with the visualization and Kurogane with the raw numbers, actually seeing the information on the battlefield provides a much deeper understanding of the game. Obviously I don't wish for this to become a tournament standard, but assuming it's not faulty, it would make for an excellent resource- one that we could really experiment with ourselves; whether it be testing interactions, spacing, collisions, or what have you. Here's a clip (one of many) showing off the mod in action:

I should have mentioned this sooner, but the modder behind this project has only gone through and completed the visualizations for 21 characters so far. Those characters are, in no particular order:


So for those of you who do partake in modding and wish to see more, here's the link: http://gamebanana.com/gamefiles/4717
There's also videos for every character listed above, feel free to view them here:

Spoiler: VIDEOS

Bowser - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9IHNQqBEc4
Bowser Jr. - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3kusW-pQ9I
Charizard - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pulVi9lhdRg
Diddy Kong - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTIM8bBMn7w
DK - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odp4I_UzBBE
Ganon - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lH_RCtWQdw0
Link - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zheUdc5bIPI
Little Mac - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Kdg-l8T8iI
Mario/Dr. Mario - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6E0fVuuLUY
Marth - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WnDdIIcAsq8
Megaman - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sr7MVEvxY3Q
Pac-Man - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9beuydlhsCQ
Peach - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lno1MdM_F_s
ROB - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sq9Jrtsck_E
Robin - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_jYeuEYn0vo
Rosalina - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EgPXMIxq3Vk
Roy - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVWnbVxd4As
Shulk - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ZAvhIOul6Y
Sonic - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzw5ynkUvzU
Villager - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WiBmhVMTQSY

Definitely something to keep an eye on. Carry on.

 

[Das Koopa]

A few notable changes...

-Other up 1.4%
-Sonic up 0.7%
-Toon Link up 0.7%
-Ryu up 0.5%
-Bayonetta up 0.3%
-Captain Falcon up 0.2%
-Rosalina & Luma up 0.2%
-R.O.B up 0.2%
-Mewtwo up 0.2%
-Greninja up 0.1%
---
-Ness down 0.1%
-Fox down 0.1%
-Cloud down 0.1%
-Peach down 0.2%
-Zero Suit Samus down 0.3%
-Diddy Kong down 0.5%
-Mario down 0.8%
-Meta Knight down 0.8%
-Sheik down 1%

NEW: Villager, Lucario.
OFF: Corrin, Pikachu.
SAME: Marth (2.4% share of results)

Toon Link had a significant uptick after steady decline, and both Lucario and Villager had large upticks. Villager had a gain of 54 points in the last month, skyrocketing into the Top 21, and Lucario had a large gain of 37 points, just enough to edge Corrin out of the chart for this month's iteration.

Sheik had a steady decline, finally getting edged out by Diddy Kong, though both characters remain extremely close to one another in Weighted formats.

Meanwhile, the top 16 unweighted variant, whose purpose is to display what characters garner the most benefits from being secondaried, has its own major movement:

Spoiler: Top 16 Unweighted Chart

While both lists are extremely similar sans the odd absence of Peach, Cloud makes large movements in this category, basically becoming tied with Sheik.

Top 8 things:

Spoiler: Top 8 Charts

Olimar makes significant gains (13th place) on Unweighted top 8, almost assuredly due to Dabuz's successful employment of the character. These lists, as expected, are all remarkably similar in most areas, but the differences are useful for pointing out quirks in specific situations.

Next, I'll show the less important but still "hey this exists" Full set from March 15th onwar-

...What's this?!

A NEW CHALLENGER IS APPROACHING!

I decided to use tournies since March 15th to create an upper-category list. At a glance, this is clearly less diverse than other charts, and there are a few other quirks. Observe as you will!

Tournaments used, and scoring numbers, by placement:

Spoiler: Tournies for Upper Category

Category 2 tournies, 1-8 pts:
2GGT FOW Saga
OutFoxx’d
The Arena 2016
Midwest Mayhem
Super Smash on the Hill
Sumabato 9
Umebara 22
Midwest Mayhem 2
EGLX
2GGT Fresh Saga
NEW FISH
Battle Arena Melbourne 8
LEVEL UP EXPO
Umebura 23
Momocon 2016
Sumabato 10
2GGT Mexico
Midwest Mayhem 3
KTAR XVIII
Smash n’ Splash 2
Sumabato 11
Apex 2016
Low Tier City 4
WTFox 2
Midwest Mayhem 4
PPT Summer
Umebara 24
Sumabato 12
Smash Factor 5

Category 3 tournies, 3-10 pts:
Pound 2016
Get on my Level 2016
2GGT KTAR Saga

Category 4 tournies, 7-14 pts:
CEO 2016
EVO 2016

Sumabato 11 (or 10?), Midwest Mayhem, and Super Smash on the Hill were retroactively counted as category 2 tournies for this list.

Lastly, the Top 16 Full set, using all tournies I've compiled since March 15th:

Spoiler: Top 16 Weighed March 15th-August 1st

Bayonetta's abnormally high results are due to the extremely large amount of points garnered in the 1.1.5 era. I can't explain why Luigi is on here ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Results in full for every format:

Spoiler: Top 16 Weighted

Diddy Kong: 360
Sheik: 351
Cloud: 313.5
Sonic: 256
Fox: 232
Rosalina & Luma: 211.5
Mario: 187
Zero Suit Samus: 162.5
Bayonetta: 160.5
Ryu: 135.5
Toon Link: 107
Marth: 104.5
Captain Falcon: 97
Meta Knight: 96
Peach: 85
Villager: 84
Ness: 84
Mewtwo: 84
R.O.B: 80
Greninja: 79.5
Lucario: 70.5
Corrin: 68.5
Mega Man: 65.5
Pikachu: 62
Yoshi: 59.5
Olimar: 57.5
Donkey Kong: 57
Luigi: 53
Bowser: 47.5
Robin: 46
Lucas: 39
Little Mac: 39
Pac-Man: 36
Pit: 34
Link: 30
Wario: 27.5
Duck Hunt: 26.5
Ike: 26.5
Palutena: 21
Mr. Game & Watch: 19
Samus: 17.5
King Dedede: 17
Shulk: 17
Wii Fit Trainer: 16
Charizard: 15.5
Bowser Jr.: 13
Kirby: 11
Lucina: 9.5
Roy: 8
Zelda: 8
Ganondorf: 6
Jigglypuff: 6
Falco: 5.5
Mii Brawler: 4
Mii Gunner: 4

Spoiler: Top 16 Unweighted

Cloud: 406
Sheik: 405
Diddy Kong: 381
Fox: 275
Sonic: 261
Rosalina & Luma: 223
Mario: 207
Zero Suit Samus: 178
Bayonetta: 170
Ryu: 144
Meta Knight: 125
Toon Link: 118
Marth: 114
Captain Falcon: 108
Ness: 99
Mewtwo: 93
Villager: 86
Corrin: 85
R.O.B: 85
Greninja: 85
Lucario: 82
Donkey Kong: 74
Peach: 72
Mega Man: 70
Olimar: 70
Pikachu: 63
Luigi: 63
Yoshi: 60
Bowser: 59
Pac-Man: 47
Robin: 46
Little Mac: 42
Lucas: 39
Duck Hunt: 35
Pit: 34
Ike: 31
Wario: 29
Link: 30
Palutena: 24
Samus: 22
King Dedede: 21
Charizard: 20
Lucina: 19
Mr. Game & Watch: 19
Shulk: 17
Wii Fit Trainer: 16
Roy: 15
Bowser Jr.: 15
Kirby: 11
Falco: 9
Zelda: 8
Ganondorf: 7
Mii Brawler: 6
Jigglypuff: 6
Mii Gunner: 4

Spoiler: Top 8 Weighted

Sheik: 208
Diddy Kong: 192.5
Cloud: 175.5
Sonic: 133
Rosalina & Luma: 123.5
Mario: 111
Fox: 108.5
Zero Suit Samus: 98.5
Bayonetta: 74
Ryu: 62.5
Toon Link: 59
Mewtwo: 51
Meta Knight: 51
Marth: 44.5
Peach: 42
Greninja: 39.5
Olimar: 38.5
Mega Man: 35.5
Captain Falcon: 35
Pikachu: 33
Corrin: 33
R.O.B.: 30
Villager: 29
Ness: 22.5
Donkey Kong: 22
Bowser: 22
Lucario: 22
Robin: 21
Pac-Man: 19
Wario: 14.5
Link: 14
Duck Hunt: 13.5
Luigi: 12.5
Yoshi: 12
Pit: 10
Lucas: 10
Charizard: 9.5
Little Mac: 9
King Dedede: 8.5
Wii Fit Trainer: 8
Palutena: 7
Lucina: 6.5
Shulk: 6
Roy: 5
Ike: 4.5
Jigglypuff: 4
Samus: 3.5
Mr. Game & Watch: 3
Zelda: 2
Mii Gunner: 2
Falco: 1.5
Mii Brawler: 1
Ganondorf: 1

Spoiler: Top 8 Unweighted

Sheik: 245
Cloud: 231
Diddy Kong: 209
Sonic: 140
Rosalina & Luma: 138
Mario: 123
Fox: 123
Zero Suit Samus: 111
Bayonetta: 79
Meta Knight: 70
Ryu: 68
Toon Link: 68
Olimar: 55
Mewtwo: 54
Marth: 49
Corrin: 44
Peach: 42
Captain Falcon: 42
Greninja: 42
Mega Man: 38
Donkey Kong: 35
Pikachu: 35
R.O.B.: 33
Lucario: 29
Villager: 29
Pac-Man: 29
Ness: 27
Bowser: 26
Robin: 21
Duck Hunt: 19
Luigi: 17
Wario: 15
Link: 14
Lucina: 13
Charizard: 12
Yoshi: 12
Little Mac: 11
King Dedede: 11
Pit: 10
Roy: 10
Lucas: 10
Wii Fit Trainer: 8
Palutena: 7
Ike: 7
Samus: 7
Shulk: 6
Jigglypuff: 4
Falco: 3
Mr. Game & Watch: 3
Zelda: 2
Mii Brawler: 2
Mii Gunner: 2
Ganondorf: 1

Spoiler: Top 16 March 15th-Onwards Weighted

Diddy Kong: 634.5
Sheik: 598.5
Cloud: 490
Bayonetta: 437
Fox: 392
Sonic: 380.5
Mario: 319
Rosalina & Luma: 312
Zero Suit Samus: 305.5
Ryu: 203
Ness: 186
Captain Falcon: 183
Mewtwo: 174.5
R.O.B: 173.5
Meta Knight: 170
Toon Link: 169.5
Peach: 155
Marth: 148.5
Mega Man: 134.5
Luigi: 131.5
Corrin: 131
Yoshi: 127
Donkey Kong: 115.5
Greninja: 114.5
Pikachu: 113.5
Villager: 112.5
Lucario: 100.5
Olimar: 94.5
Bowser: 85.5
Robin: 75
Ike: 73.5
Lucas: 62
Wario: 61
Little Mac: 57
Palutena: 56
Link: 55
Pit: 52
Pac-Man: 51.5
Samus: 46
Duck Hunt: 44
Mr. Game & Watch: 38
Wii Fit Trainer: 32
King Dedede: 28.5
Kirby: 27.5
Shulk: 24
Bowser Jr.: 21
Roy: 18.5
Falco: 14.5
Zelda: 14
Charizard: 14
Lucina: 13
Mii Brawler: 13
Ganondorf: 11.5
Jigglypuff: 11
Mii Gunner: 4
Dr. Mario: 3
Dark Pit: 0
Mii Swordfighter: 0

Spoiler: Top 16 Upper Category Weighted

Sheik: 238.5
Diddy Kong: 207
Cloud: 157.5
Zero Suit Samus: 139.5
Fox: 139.5
Mario: 136
Rosalina & Luma: 125
Sonic: 114
Bayonetta: 109
Toon Link: 76
Meta Knight: 68
Mewtwo: 68
Marth: 62
Donkey Kong: 49
Ryu: 49
Mega Man: 48
Peach: 42.5
Olimar: 39
Ness: 38.5
Captain Falcon: 37
Villager: 35
Lucario: 30.5
Pikachu: 27.5
Luigi: 27
Corrin: 26.5
Greninja: 26
Pit: 26
R.O.B: 21.5
Lucas: 18
Little Mac: 16
Pac-Man: 16
Mr. Game & Watch: 16
Bowser: 15
Duck Hunt: 14
Ike: 14
Palutena: 13
Wii Fit Trainer: 13
Yoshi: 12.5
Link: 12
Wario: 12
Samus: 8
Kirby: 6.5
Lucina: 4
Bowser Jr.: 3
Shulk: 3
Robin: 2
Charizard: 2

Methodology:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1m_3mnTm2CUhlxzi-vlN29OwEbQlUcJN6V1em2cX8aAw/edit

Results thread:
http://smashboards.com/threads/tournament-placing-database-scoring-project.437773/

 

[HFlash]

NegaNixx

When did that one win of Cloud over Sheik happen?

Zero lost to M2K 0-3. Game one with Diddy, game two and 3 with Shiek.

 

[NegaNixx]

If it's not too much to ask, can u do this for the other top tiers

I do have it for the other top tiers. It's just that... There are a few that are pretty incomplete because of the frequency in which the characters run into each other.

NegaNixx

When did that one win of Cloud over Sheik happen?

I have Rain's Cloud going 1-3 with VoiD.

But now I have to add... that set from GoML. I hate counterpicks. So it should be...

3-3

 

[my_T]

I have Rain's Cloud going 1-3 with VoiD.

But now I have to add... that set from GoML. I hate counterpicks. So it should be...

3-3

I think adding the M2K/Zero set would muddy up the data. It just doesn't seem noteworthy.

While Zero is very good I don't think his sheik was well practiced at the time, and he didn't even use her the whole set. Just my opinion though

 

[NegaNixx]

I think adding the M2K/Zero set would muddy up the data. It just doesn't seem noteworthy.

While Zero is very good I don't think his sheik was well practiced at the time, and he didn't even use her the whole set. Just my opinion though

I'm not trying to put that much subjectivity into it. ZeRo has a top sheik, he faced a top cloud. And that's all there is to it, even if it wasn't polished that day, a larger sample size will reflect the match up better. It's only 6 Matches at the moment. And I have EVO and CEO to fully include. It'll change overtime.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Wait, so those are match records, not sets?

 

[NegaNixx]

Yeah they're going by games.

I do have the individual Sets laid out though. And for EVO I'm probably going to have to use the Sets instead of the games.

 

[Ethan7]

Looking at Das Koopa 's nice post...
Link's results are about the same as where @Mr-R ranked him on his tier list.

 

[H4Xcaster The Hylian]

I Just Think That Zelda Has A Great Potential

1-An Awesome Recovery
2-She Has A Decent Air Speed
3-Pretty Good Combo Potencial
4-A Lot Of Killing Moves
5-And A Tag Team Especial Move

 

[Wintermelon43]

I Just Think That Zelda Has A Great Potential

1-An Awesome Recovery
2-She Has A Decent Air Speed
3-Pretty Good Combo Potencial
4-A Lot Of Killing Moves
5-And A Tag Team Especial Move

She only has two combos lol.

Also, she's flawed to the point where having some of that stuff (But not as good as you make them sound) is completatly outweighed by her flaws, so it barely even matters. She can't really be put above bottom 3 (assuming no miis) unless results are the only factor in your tier list.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

This. I think "C.Viper syndrome" might be more accurate, but that's enough Street Fighter talk for now.

Incidentally, I really appreciate how easy is to pick up a character in Smash Bros. I know people riff on Smash for that fact all the time, but I think it'd legitimately be devastated if I couldn't play using my favorites.

Oh god, you just caused flashbacks. You see, SFIV was the first Street Fighter I ever played and C.Viper was the first character I tried to use. Yeah, that didn't go so well at first.

Rosalina is pretty simple for a puppet archetype but she's still on the upper end of complexity for Smash. I'm glad though; normally I'm awful at controlling puppet characters because the puppet usually takes completely separate inputs. Because Luma simply attacks when Rosalina does, it's a lot easier to manage the two at once.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

She only has two combos lol.

Also, she's flawed to the point where having some of that stuff (But not as good as you make them sound) is completatly outweighed by her flaws, so it barely even matters. She can't really be put above bottom 3 (assuming no miis) unless results are the only factor in your tier list.

Nah she ain't that bad, that last patch helped her out a lot. Her D-Tilt is fairly good and leads into a few things, Dtilt-Down Throw, DI read Up air or Nair the Nair can lead to a back air but the window is incredibly tight. Her Ftilt covers a good bit of distance and kills and her Up Tilt and Smash can punish inward rolls and lead into juggles. She has a Hoo-Hah, Phantom Slash covers most ledge options and is a good edge guard against straightforward recoveries and there is always the threat of her Up B killing you really early if you do something really unsafe on her shield.

IZAW made a good "Art of" video on her recently shows some neat stuff. She's no better than Bottom 15 but she isn't dead last anymore

 

[arbustopachon]

Isn't zelda's hoo-ha really easy to Di? Genuinely asking here.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Isn't zelda's hoo-ha really easy to Di? Genuinely asking here.

No it's not terribly hard atleast in my experience using her but then again I suck so I'm probably reacting too slow to the DI. If they don't DI away at all they are dead however.

 

[Lavani]

Isn't zelda's hoo-ha really easy to Di? Genuinely asking here.

dthrow>uair still connects on DI away after the uair hitbox buff, though at higher percents/vs certain characters Zelda might have to dash a bit first.

 

[Lorde]

BJN39 (Zelda boards mod) made an incredibly in-depth thread (with a bit of Lavani's help) covering Zelda's dthrow>uair combo (known colloquially to Zelda mains as "Finger Bang"). The thread details frame advantage, hitstun cap, rage, di, airdodges, etc. Basically everything you need to know about the combo is in that thread. BJN works really hard and deserves the appreciation.

Link to thread

But speaking of Zelda, the only character she's 100% better than imo is Jigglypuff. The buffs she has gotten through patches are definitely nice, but she's still garbage tier.

 

[Luco]

She only has two combos lol.

Also, she's flawed to the point where having some of that stuff (But not as good as you make them sound) is completatly outweighed by her flaws, so it barely even matters. She can't really be put above bottom 3 (assuming no miis) unless results are the only factor in your tier list.

Out of curiosity, what does this statement, particularly the bolded, actually mean? Most of the things he listed are pretty relevant, enough so that even with, perhaps, low grounded mobility or poor approach options, Zelda is still scary enough in those situations she's able to utilise them (low grounded mobility is frustrating but in the situations she's able to get in she has true stuff and cheese, elevator kills aren't guaranteed but they're relevant and force respect, etc etc). Otherwise the act of putting those strengths on a scale and weighing them against her flaws feels arbitrary.

As a relevant aside I would agree with the conclusion that Zelda is still bottom 3 (as awesome as the buffs were for her). I just felt this kind of reasoning needed to be questioned to produce something more meaningful.

 

[BJN39]

Random thing about Zelda: Purple Guy (Ed/ScaryLB59, MANY TAGS!) is godlike and gets things with Zelda that I would've said would never be guaranteed in high level play. His ability to land Dtilt into Ftilt/NAir/FAir/UAir is incredible and makes Zelda's Dtilt look like Diddy's. Not to mention that he is the first person to effectively use "Finger Bang" (Zelda's hoo haa) to KO consistently. At this point landing a grab at high (but really any) percent is more important (and safer) than fishing for an elevator.

He's also got tons of vids and screen time to show that.

Despite Zelda being bad versus just about any character, he makes ha look useable. He's just about the only hope Zelda has of seeing the light outside of bottom tier if there's any chance lol.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

BJN39 (Zelda boards mod) made an incredibly in-depth thread (with a bit of Lavani's help) covering Zelda's dthrow>uair combo (known colloquially to Zelda mains as "Finger Bang"). The thread details frame advantage, hitstun cap, rage, di, airdodges, etc. Basically everything you need to know about the combo is in that thread. BJN works really hard and deserves the appreciation.

Link to thread

But speaking of Zelda, the only character she's 100% better than imo is Jigglypuff. The buffs she has gotten through patches are definitely nice, but she's still garbage tier.

I mean, if you were to ask me, I'd say she's better than King Dedede too. The only thing good I can find about Dedede is that he lives forever and Gordo ledge traps. Then he has obvious, crippling flaws like being the biggest piece of combo food to ever exist due to weight and fall speed combined with bad frame data so against characters that have a confirm out of an aerial (ex. Falcon uair > knee) his weight doesn't end up making much of a difference.

 

[PK Gaming]

Random thing about Zelda: Purple Guy (Ed/ScaryLB59, MANY TAGS!) is godlike and gets things with Zelda that I would've said would never be guaranteed in high level play. His ability to land Dtilt into Ftilt/NAir/FAir/UAir is incredible and makes Zelda's Dtilt look like Diddy's. Not to mention that he is the first person to effectively use "Finger Bang" (Zelda's hoo haa) to KO consistently. At this point landing a grab at high (but really any) percent is more important (and safer) than fishing for an elevator.

He's also got tons of vids and screen time to show that.

Despite Zelda being bad versus just about any character, he makes ha look useable. He's just about the only hope Zelda has of seeing the light outside of bottom tier if there's any chance lol.

Seeing him play makes me seriously question the validity of the "Zelda is bottom 5" claim.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Zelda is still bottom 5.

If you ain't Jigglypuff, you've got at least one player who can put in serious work and make you look impressive.

Like people are saying Zelda should be above D3... then you look up videos of that one D3 player from BC and go "wait no, nvm that D3 is bonkers".

Its cool that SSB4 lets so many characters shine at a noticeable level, but lets no go crazy here.

 

[H4Xcaster The Hylian]

Dos Somebody Looks at Esam's and Zero's Tier List Ok Esam is a Bit Crazy but Zelda is Bottom 15 and Not Bottom 10.

 

[TDK]

Dos Somebody Looks at Esam's and Zero's Tier List Ok Esam is a Bit Crazy but Zelda is Bottom 15 and Not Bottom 10.

Realistically, Zelda is bottom 10 at absolute best, and really bottom 5.

 

[ARGHETH]

Dos Somebody Looks at Esam's and Zero's Tier List Ok Esam is a Bit Crazy but Zelda is Bottom 15 and Not Bottom 10.

Being bottom 10 or 15 makes almost literally no difference.