Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[wm1026]

Curious to know what everyone's opinion on Corrin is? Haven't seen much talk of him at all on here. Was watching a few shockwaves last night and CosmicCosmos Corrin was impressive. If I remember correctly he placed 3rd at Low Tier City 3 with solo Corrin?

 

[Frihetsanka]

Corrin is somewhat controversial. Sometimes she's #10, sometimes she's #25. I think she's top 20, with the potential for top 15, although her current results suggest that she's top 20. Her MU chart is pretty good though.

 

[|RK|]

Has anyone explored the idea of a timeout Pika?

It's how my friend beat me the last time we played at Xanadu. Sucks.

Obviously it requires a lead. But depending on the stage, your character's range, etc. it may or may not work. Like, I don't think it would work on Sheik or the Mario Bros because nair.

Dealing with QA is way easier than dealing with spindash.

 

[my_T]

There are two Megaman players in the entire world that can feasibly make it into top 64 at an international tournament. That's more than most characters, but if I somehow wind up in top 64 at Smashcon, chances are I'm going to be playing a Diddy Kong or a Mario or a Cloud, because they are more represented at the top 64 level.

Two that you know of. Lol you're not Professor Xavier. You don't know who's out there, who they use, and how good they are. There are plenty of cases in various fighting games of players flying under the radar because of their lack of presence at tournaments. This is pretty common in Japan and Korea.

This sort of reminds me of the times where many people thought meta knight was a bad character. Next thing you know Leo shows up and meta knight is top tier all of a sudden, time to grind the meta knight match-up lol. Meta knight was slept on hard because nobody really used him and had hardly any top level rep.

 

[FeelMeUp]

It's how my friend beat me the last time we played at Xanadu. Sucks.

Obviously it requires a lead. But depending on the stage, your character's range, etc. it may or may not work. Like, I don't think it would work on Sheik or the Mario Bros because nair.

Dealing with QA is way easier than dealing with spindash.

was it recorded?

 

[|RK|]

was it recorded?

Nope. But to be fair, I play Kirby lol - I'm sure you can imagine

 

[verbatim]

Two that you know of. Lol you're not Professor Xavier. You don't know who's out there, who they use, and how good they are.

Many different groups of players track tournament results at the national level. From them you can see that there are both more Mario players in the competitive scene than megamans, and that they preform better overall.

I'm not saying Meganman's is bad, but Mario is clearly the bigger threat at this point in time.

 

[PK Gaming]

Curious to know what everyone's opinion on Corrin is? Haven't seen much talk of him at all on here. Was watching a few shockwaves last night and CosmicCosmos Corrin was impressive. If I remember correctly he placed 3rd at Low Tier City 3 with solo Corrin?

Corrin is a character with small player base, middling tournament results and a polarized kit (awful mobility, but combo damage is high and Side B is nuts).

Certain top players seem to think this character is ridiculously good, but I honestly don't buy it anymore. Overall i'd say she's just... a solid upper mid tier character atm.

Cosmos is definitely the best Corrin atm though. Does some pretty amazing stuff with that character.

 

[Ethan7]

So what do you guys think about Toon Link? In Das Koopa 's tournament results rankings he sets comfortably in top 15 in all four categories.

He has a high damage output in his aerials overall, multiple projectiles including his bomb, which combos into his powerful aerials (from out of shield) and many tricks which he can do with it. He has pretty good mobility, is short and floaty. Forward and up smash are good.

However, his frame data isn't the best with his fastest moves startup wise hit frame 6 (throwing bomb while dashing does come out frame 4). He doesn't have any grab combos that I know of outside of using projectiles. He does have a kill throw and a decent pummel.

I guess you already know this stuff so what else do you guys think about Toon Link?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Yoc is the best Corrin.

This sort of reminds me of the times where many people thought meta knight was a bad character.

Before vvarious patches dropped Meta Knight was a bad character.

 

[Yikarur]

Corrin is a very simple character with obvious strengths and obvious flaws. I was really hyped about the character but the character is so simple that you just can't really get more out of Corrin after a certain point except for obvious dragon lunge accuracy. I think Corrin is one of the most boring characters in this game.

 

[PK Gaming]

Yoc is the best Corrin.

You're joking.

His Corrin isn't anywhere near as impressive. His Dragon Lunge usage is really basic.

 

[Ethan7]

Speaking of Corrin:

 

[blackghost]

I tihkn corrin has some of the best edge gaurding potential between all the fire emblem characters and the ability to two frame on stage with dragon lunge is amazing. but theres no evidence that its practical to reliably do.
as for timeout pikachu.... don't just don't.

 

[my_T]

Many different groups of players track tournament results at the national level. From them you can see that there are both more Mario players in the competitive scene than megamans, and that they preform better overall.

As for the part in bold, you don't have the numbers to accurately make such a claim. If megaman is rarely in attendance how can you even make that comparison. Megaman definitely out-performs mario in japan which in my opinion is just as strong as america. But there are other factors that may have had an effect on how these results played out which is the main ****ing problem with using results as an argument or to make a claim.

I'm not saying Meganman's is bad, but Mario is clearly the bigger threat at this point in time.

just to be clear this isn't about mario and MM specifically. I'm talking about the entire roster.

Who exactly is mario a bigger threat to? DK and Ness are two of my most used characters competitively and I can assure you that I am much more worried about the MM match-up because the MM match-up is much more difficult for both Ness and DK than then Mario match-up. I'm not about to pay to enter some tourney just to get caught with my pants down because I didn't properly prepare for my characters ****ty match-ups.

 

[Illusion.]

You're joking.

His Corrin isn't anywhere near as impressive. His Dragon Lunge usage is really basic.

YOC is better because he's won large Japanese tournaments with notable players in attendance. Cosmos doesn't travel, just stays in his city and wins weeklies; he has potential to be top 5 in Texas, but we won't know until he goes somewhere outside his city.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I tihkn corrin has some of the best edge gaurding potential between all the fire emblem characters and the ability to two frame on stage with dragon lunge is amazing. but theres no evidence that its practical to reliably do.
as for timeout pikachu.... don't just don't.

Eruption > Dragon Lunge for edgeguarding. Eruption also covers attempts to go above the ledge at the same time. Dragon Lunge ain't bad though.

Also that ESAM video is amusing. Probably won't ever be capitalized on because people are too afraid to edgeguard but man for a recovery that was being claimed as good before ain't looking so hot. I don't think Marth/Lucina have that problem with their Up Bs really, leaving them at the top of the FE recovery list.

Not that any of them recover amazingly well. Its either fast but committed hard to one direction with no other options (Marth, Lucina, Roy), Slow but has a built in meteor (Robin), really slow but has multiple options + built in meteor (Ike), or an awkward mesh of "fast but not as fast and linear, and a second option that is occasionally usable but not from a long ways away" (Corrin).

 

[Nobie]

As for the part in bold, you don't have the numbers to accurately make such a claim. If megaman is rarely in attendance how can you even make that comparison. Megaman definitely out-performs mario in japan which in my opinion is just as strong as america. But there are other factors that may have had an effect on how these results played out which is the main ****ing problem with using results as an argument or to make a claim.



just to be clear this isn't about mario and MM specifically. I'm talking about the entire roster.

Who exactly is mario a bigger threat to? DK and Ness are two of my most used characters competitively and I can assure you that I am much more worried about the MM match-up because the MM match-up is much more difficult for both Ness and DK than then Mario match-up. I'm not about to pay to enter some tourney just to get caught with my pants down because I didn't properly prepare for my characters ****ty match-ups.

This is a few months out of date at this point, but @Thinkaman did an analysis of usage frequency vs. Placings: http://smashboards.com/threads/4br-...ive-impressions.429826/page-128#post-20983508

 

[Nobie]

Double post, don't mind me.

 

[soniczx123]

You're joking.

His Corrin isn't anywhere near as impressive. His Dragon Lunge usage is really basic.

He's not Japanese, so you're automatically wrong lol.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

So Kameme is going to Genesis. More MegaMan hype!

 

[Radical Larry]

Corrin's not a top 20 character by far; the lack of a combo throw, low mobility, average recovery (unless near the wall) and sometimes lack of kill moves are a hindrance, but his good kill moves, good combo ability and great spacing ability all but make up for it. Corrin's a very simple character, and it wouldn't take much for an opponent to find out their weaknesses and exploit them to the highest degree. Corrin, however, does have an anti-combo move by the name of Counter Surge, which is only reliable if your opponent commits and goes for a powerful attack or an attack very close to the ceiling, or, you know, your opponent is Ganondorf. Dragon Shot's not a bad move either, it's actually probably one of the best moves for getting quick damage, because all you need is an uncharged projectile to lead up into a fully charged bite.

In terms of placement, I got to put Corrin around top 30, around 27th to 28th. Firstly, Corrin's not that good of a character at all due to the poor mobility and lack of a combo throw, but he does at least have some good combos and kill moves; though some of his kill moves do have a bit of endlag to them, making them very punishable up close. Also, I've not seen many results where Corrin's made top 8 or even top 3, so for me, Corrin's been slipping down and down for me in terms of tiers.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Corrin's not a top 20 character by far[...]

Top 6 according to ANTi (could be hyperbole), #10 according to ZeRo, Mr. R #15, Esam top 18, Dabuz #30. By results, Corrin is #22 weighted top 16, and #21 weighted top 8 (tied with Pikachu for #20, I suppose).

Here is Cosmos' Corrin MU chart. https://twitter.com/cosmiccosmology/status/719375401076674561

Assuming it's accurate (it might not be), Corrin sure seems like a high tier character. 5 bad MUs, 6 even, and the rest in Corrin's favor. Of course, the MU chart might be very outdated.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Corrin ain't high tier/top 20.

He's a very good mid tier, a good counter pick option against Mario by the sounds of things. But his overall results don't line up with what Cosmos is suggesting for his MU chart and again, Cosmos doesn't travel. He's going to have a lack of experience against a number of characters at their best level. His overall results have spikes and then drop down... like how it goes for every mid tier character.

Just gotta way for the top level players to catch up with reality and realize that no, you can't just keep claiming "potential!" and then shoving him into top 10 or 20. Granted they won't catch onto that and in the next tier list Corrin will be like, 15th. Ugh.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I agree Corrin beats Ryu.

 

[TurboLink]

I agree Corrin beats Ryu.

Care to explain please?

 

[PK Gaming]

YOC is better because he's won large Japanese tournaments with notable players in attendance. Cosmos doesn't travel, just stays in his city and wins weeklies; he has potential to be top 5 in Texas, but we won't know until he goes somewhere outside his city.

He's definitely an impressive player, no doubt about that. You don't get top 8 at a stacked tournament like Umebura 23 without being an amazing player.

It's just... I've seen a ton of his Corrin gameplay and there's some stuff that he isn't doing. His ledge game is anemic; Corrin has a ton of great options against opponents hanging on the ledge and he doesn't really bother with them. He's also generally pretty conservative with Dragon Lunge... which is a good mindset to have in certain matchups, but there are times where he can absolutely get away with abusing more since there are some characters that literally can't do anything against it.

It's possible YOC is the better player, but Cosmos is absolutely the better Corrin main.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Not a whole lot to explain. Dragon Lunge is pretty real in this match and not very committal. Tatsu recovery is a free DL edgeguard tipper kill. Ryu can catch Corrins recovery pretty easy tho because his hitboxes on nair and fair do linger a bit. Corrin barely wins imo. The stronger player will win, but DL is strong vs Ryu and Ryu has to hard guess with an option to beat it.

I mean it could be even, but I am leaning towards Corrin. And of course Ryu can't really outbutton anyone with a sword.

 

[soniczx123]

Corrin's not a top 20 character by far; the lack of a combo throw, low mobility, average recovery (unless near the wall) and sometimes lack of kill moves are a hindrance, but his good kill moves, good combo ability and great spacing ability all but make up for it. Corrin's a very simple character, and it wouldn't take much for an opponent to find out their weaknesses and exploit them to the highest degree. Corrin, however, does have an anti-combo move by the name of Counter Surge, which is only reliable if your opponent commits and goes for a powerful attack or an attack very close to the ceiling, or, you know, your opponent is Ganondorf. Dragon Shot's not a bad move either, it's actually probably one of the best moves for getting quick damage, because all you need is an uncharged projectile to lead up into a fully charged bite.

In terms of placement, I got to put Corrin around top 30, around 27th to 28th. Firstly, Corrin's not that good of a character at all due to the poor mobility and lack of a combo throw, but he does at least have some good combos and kill moves; though some of his kill moves do have a bit of endlag to them, making them very punishable up close. Also, I've not seen many results where Corrin's made top 8 or even top 3, so for me, Corrin's been slipping down and down for me in terms of tiers.

Is she better than Link, in your opinion??

 

[Emblem Lord]

Hell yea.

Dragon Lunge is stupid.

 

[soniczx123]

Hell yea.

Dragon Lunge is stupid.

Then you know you play Sonic and you can actually punish Dragon Lunge after it hits your shield :^)

 

[Emblem Lord]

She can pop sonic on the mouth with the kick, so its not free.

But even so it's one match-up. Corrin overall is sightly more oppressive as a character and her specs are superior overall as is her safety and conversions.

 

[soniczx123]

She can pop sonic on the mouth with the kick, so its not free.

But even so it's one match-up. Corrin overall is sightly more oppressive as a character and her specs are superior overall as is her safety and conversions.

Sonic can just run just out of it's range and run back in for the punish.

It's not free, just extremely difficult for Corrin.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Cool Cool.

One match tho. One match vs a char in contention for top 5. You asked me if Corrin was better then Link, not Sonic.

 

[Radical Larry]

Is she better than Link, in your opinion??

While I think the Link v Corrin MU is in Link's favor, 55:45, Corrin's MU spread would generally be better than Link's by far, so about two, three characters above Link. If, say, Link is 30, Corrin would be 27 or 28. While I believe Link is a fairly decent character worthy of middle tier, Corrin is definitely still above Link, but not by too much.

Corrin's potential isn't really that good, but it definitely isn't bad either. It's average.

 

[soniczx123]

Cool Cool.

One match tho. One match vs a char in contention for top 5. You asked me if Corrin was better then Link, not Sonic.

To be honest, I did ask Radical Larry, which is why I quoted him :3

But the more opinions, the better

 

[Emblem Lord]

To be honest, I did ask Radical Larry, which is why I quoted him :3

But the more opinions, the better

ew

 

[EternalFlare]

Speaking of timeouts which character would you guys say is the best at timing people out? I'd say it's a toss up between Sonic and Pacman. Both these characters can be played extremely defensive and we've seen even top players lose to timeout Sonics/Pacmans.

Overall I'm going to go with Pacman. Pacman has an incredible run away game and great projectiles, Sonic only has mobility.

Basically if Pacman wants to run the clock, most characters can't do anything about it. They are forced to play his game.

 

[verbatim]

Tiny Mii gunner is the best timeout character by a wide margin. In 1111 mii rulesets Pacman is probably best though.

 

[Das Koopa]

How is Sonic not the best timeout character in any format? Wrath has demonstrated significant amounts of success using the strategy (managing to even timeout ZeRo in one game), and KEN employed it to defeat Tyrant.