Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Rizen]

lolwut.

Japan has insane population density and the most active arcade scene on the face of the Earth by FAR.

Same reason tristate is strong in Smash. Alot of people squished together all grinding together.

^This. With some exceptions, a satellite photo at night would be a good indication of the best smash areas simply because the population density.

I wonder if India has strong gaming of some kind?

 

[bc1910]

Without getting too political, the UK's population density is getting out of control. London in particular has insane population density. We should be a lot better at Smash than we are.

I think the game simply isn't that big over here.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Your area doesn't seem to take the game that seriously.

And you know what?

There is nothing wrong with that.

 

[bc1910]

There's no wrong or right about it; it's just simple fact.

It makes the competitive scene harder to crack for players who want to compete globally, but that's the way of things sometimes.

Meleeis taken more seriously over here, though we're still not strong at it.

 

[HoSmash4]

UK Melee isn't actually that good at all. UK did better overall at smash 4 at beast, but UK melee just has a better star player. (Prof)

But really the ambition to get better if it means going through the hard grind isn't something many in the UK have at all. Smash 4 just isn't as popular in UK on the competitive level (we have a lot of casual players I assure)

 

[ARISTOS]

When people were talking about potentially strong counterpick characters, a character that came up often was .

I don't see it.

Whenever Kirby has been brought out to manage a potential bad MU, I see a character that gets figured out and usually beaten. Out of all of our top tiers, the only one I see Kirby having continual success in is , who can be just as easily managed, if not more so, by . Who does Kirby have great MUs with to be a viable secondary option?

 

[PJB]

I know kid goggles and SGkels use Kirby as a secondary to avoid sonic vs ZSS- is that no longer considered a decent matchup for Kirby?

 

[Fatmanonice]

Is Wario vs Pac-Man a good MU for Pac? I found it odd that Elexiao switched to Pac when his struggle to kill likely meant Wario would have more opportunities to use Waft.

I'd say no for a few reasons:

1. Wario can eat all of Pac-man's projectiles including a launched hydrant. He also gains 1% from eating all the fruit and gets a full 3% if he eats the lead pellet in Pac-man's Power pellet.
2. Because of how Pac-man's recovery works, the threat of the waft can put a ton of pressure on Pac-man offstage.
3. Wario can very easily knock the hydrant away. Ftilt, utilt, and multiple dtilts can do it fast enough while falling uair, dair, bair, usmash, fsmash, at least half charged waft, and bike can do it too.

 

[Nu~]

I'd say no for a few reasons:

1. Wario can eat all of Pac-man's projectiles including a launched hydrant. He also gains 1% from eating all the fruit and gets a full 3% if he eats the lead pellet in Pac-man's Power pellet.
2. Because of how Pac-man's recovery works, the threat of the waft can put a ton of pressure on Pac-man offstage.
3. Wario can very easily knock the hydrant away. Ftilt, utilt, and multiple dtilts can do it fast enough while falling uair, dair, bair, usmash, fsmash, at least half charged waft, and bike can do it too.

I agree until you start talking about smash attacks. Wario isn't special in that his smash attacks launch the hydrant.
By foolishly using a smash attack on the hydrant, pacman can easily just wait and punish your endlag. I also don't remember wario's Dair launching the hydrant (13% hp btw)

Pacman loves that he can easily out range Wario, but he has to use his fruit intelligently in mid range so wario doesn't just eat everything thrown his way. Also, wario's bike explodes when pacman throws any fruit at it (even a cherry lolol) so he can't really use it to zone break.
It's pacman's disadvantage, but nothing worse than -1. There are many characters pacman fears more than wario.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Wario's tilts are his best options for launching the hydrant but I was listing other moves that can launch it too. The point is that Wario doesn't see it as a big obstacle/trap like other characters do.

When people were talking about potentially strong counterpick characters, a character that came up often was .

I don't see it.

Whenever Kirby has been brought out to manage a potential bad MU, I see a character that gets figured out and usually beaten. Out of all of our top tiers, the only one I see Kirby having continual success in is , who can be just as easily managed, if not more so, by . Who does Kirby have great MUs with to be a viable secondary option?

I don't really see it either. Swords in general are bad news bears for Kirby (aside from Shulk for obvious reasons) and his lack of range means that he's going to be camped out a lot. One of Kirby's stronger traits is that he DGAF about most characters' offstage play so maybe people are optimistic about him versus or ? There's no way could be remotely good while strike me as doable but not good enough to be reasonable counterpicks.

 

[Y2Kay]

Last time I checked, is actual hell on earth for Kirby.

 

[Locke 06]

Wario's tilts are his best options for launching the hydrant but I was listing other moves that can launch it too. The point is that Wario doesn't see it as a big obstacle/trap like other characters do.





I don't really see it either. Swords in general are bad news bears for Kirby (aside from Shulk for obvious reasons) and his lack of range means that he's going to be camped out a lot. One of Kirby's stronger traits is that he DGAF about most characters' offstage play so maybe people are optimistic about him versus or ? There's no way could be remotely good while strike me as doable but not good enough to be reasonable counterpicks.

Kirby's recovery is actually quite suspect.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Last time I checked, is actual hell on earth for Kirby.

I don't know the match up and am only basing it on the fact that Kirby struggles most with characters with good range, dependable projectiles, and can reasonably kill early. I don't think I've ever actually seen it play out. Either way, Kirby has an absurd number of genuine counterpicks so bringing him in to try to fight seems like a half baked plan in a game where hardly anyone has a true solo main anymore. Also, when in doubt, whip Cloud out seems to be ringing more and more true as time passes on.

 

[soniczx123]

Last time I checked, is actual hell on earth for Kirby.

Trust me, it is.

Get one Spin Dash on him and then outrun him. Kirby can't literally do anything at all.

 

[|RK|]

Tbqh, no one is going to hit Kirby with one spin dash and run. Sonic is bad, sure. But Kirby's damage per conversion is way too high to risk something as dumb as that. If you have a serious lead, you can run. But then Sonic can do that with almost anyone. My views on that MU are ever evolving.

As for Diddy and Mario - also their favor, but not obscene per-se (other Kirbies will disagree with me on Mario lol).

As for Sheik - that's definitely doable, especially post-nerf. Many people see it as an even MU, and even VoiD sees it as just 55:45 Sheik's favor. In any MU where Kirby can quickly rack up damage at low percents, he's probably not going to get crushed, even if it isn't in his favor. That's actually why Luigi (and Mario to a lesser extent) are disadvantageous for Kirby - their nair wrecks his damage output, and their other tools (particularly in damage racking themselves) work juuuuust fine on Kirby.

Finally, swords alone aren't doom and gloom. You'll note that all three of the best Marth's say that they hold a slight advantage over Kirby at best (and even at worst). Kirby's tools can still work despite being outranged. Cloud definitely wrecks Kirby onstage for reasons beyond range, but I'm getting more optimistic the more often I play the MU.

 

[sedrf]

http://evo2016.s3.amazonaws.com/brackets/index.html
evo pool are out

 

[Djent]

On that subject, I made a thread in the EVO board to discuss seeding issues. I'm not a mod and so can't tell you what to do, but I suggest we confine discussion to that thread/forum for now.

 

[ARISTOS]

Tbqh, no one is going to hit Kirby with one spin dash and run. Sonic is bad, sure. But Kirby's damage per conversion is way too high to risk something as dumb as that. If you have a serious lead, you can run. But then Sonic can do that with almost anyone. My views on that MU are ever evolving.

As for Diddy and Mario - also their favor, but not obscene per-se (other Kirbies will disagree with me on Mario lol).

As for Sheik - that's definitely doable, especially post-nerf. Many people see it as an even MU, and even VoiD sees it as just 55:45 Sheik's favor. In any MU where Kirby can quickly rack up damage at low percents, he's probably not going to get crushed, even if it isn't in his favor. That's actually why Luigi (and Mario to a lesser extent) are disadvantageous for Kirby - their nair wrecks his damage output, and their other tools (particularly in damage racking themselves) work juuuuust fine on Kirby.

Finally, swords alone aren't doom and gloom. You'll note that all three of the best Marth's say that they hold a slight advantage over Kirby at best (and even at worst). Kirby's tools can still work despite being outranged. Cloud definitely wrecks Kirby onstage for reasons beyond range, but I'm getting more optimistic the more often I play the MU.

But Kirby as a counterpick? What MUs would Kirby be advantageous in that would warrant his use as a CP? Being a good CP=/=barely getting by in MUs, you should be winning those in theory

 

[Wintermelon43]

When people were talking about potentially strong counterpick characters, a character that came up often was .

I don't see it.

Whenever Kirby has been brought out to manage a potential bad MU, I see a character that gets figured out and usually beaten. Out of all of our top tiers, the only one I see Kirby having continual success in is , who can be just as easily managed, if not more so, by . Who does Kirby have great MUs with to be a viable secondary option?

He goes even with as well. His only "great" matchup though is Fox.

Wario's tilts are his best options for launching the hydrant but I was listing other moves that can launch it too. The point is that Wario doesn't see it as a big obstacle/trap like other characters do.





I don't really see it either. Swords in general are bad news bears for Kirby (aside from Shulk for obvious reasons) and his lack of range means that he's going to be camped out a lot. One of Kirby's stronger traits is that he DGAF about most characters' offstage play so maybe people are optimistic about him versus or ? There's no way could be remotely good while strike me as doable but not good enough to be reasonable counterpicks.

Are also even and is our favor. But yea, swords are bad in general for Kirby (Although not as bad as many say, Toon Link and Cloud are the only swordfighters that are -2 for us)





And also for the Wario vs Pac-Man talk, I agree Wario's favor but not that bad.

 

[wedl!!]

He goes even with as well. His only "great" matchup though is Fox.

Are also even and is our favor. But yea, swords are bad in general for Kirby (Although not as bad as many say, Toon Link and Cloud are the only swordfighters that are -2 for us)





And also for the Wario vs Pac-Man talk, I agree Wario's favor but not that bad.

Elaborate please.

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

Shulk vs kirby isnt bad for shulk at all. People are acting like inhale is really easy to land and monado kirby ruins shulk. Shulks frame data doesnt mean an automatic win for kirby either. Speed and buster can really mess kirby up, and camping with jump art can also cripple him. The upthrow up air 50-50 kills him at 73% at the earliest.

Of course kirby has advantages over shulk, like his combo game and his fast moves. But kirby can get walled very easily. I think this MU is even on both sides, as both characters can do nasty things to each other

EDIT: Here is the full upthrow up air document that includes percentages https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...X3n4pqNbSEH7sy-4HIXzLLHSc/edit#gid=2002808399

 

[soniczx123]

Shulk vs kirby isnt bad for shulk at all. People are acting like inhale is really easy to land and monado kirby ruins shulk. Shulks frame data doesnt mean an automatic win for kirby either. Speed and buster can really mess kirby up, and camping with jump art can also cripple him. The upthrow up air 50-50 kills him at 73% at the earliest.

Of course kirby has advantages over shulk, like his combo game and his fast moves. But kirby can get walled very easily. I think this MU is even on both sides, as both characters can do nasty things to each other

EDIT: Here is the full upthrow up air document that includes percentages https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...X3n4pqNbSEH7sy-4HIXzLLHSc/edit#gid=2002808399

How do you believe Shulk loses against? I have heard differing options from Tremendo Dude and or local Shulk.

 

[DanGR]

I was one person that mentioned Kirby as a CP char. I think the Bidou setup turns Kirby into a monster, but I'm not aware of anyone using it seriously yet. In my mind he's one of those 'you'll see' characters, but with obvious potential.

 

[Fatmanonice]

I don't see how Kirby vs Ryu or ZSS could be even. If people say Sonic is godawful, I don't see how ZSS could be good with her ranged attacks, more aggressive offstage presence, and much more reliable kill set ups from aerials and grabs. As for Ryu, if fast, combo oriented characters like Fox, Pikachu, and Sonic can't claim an advantage against Ryu, I don't see what Kirby's got on them aside from his pink pancake crouch. Characters like Pikachu and Fox can run circles around him but they are also in kill range at like 50% (which is basically two combos and a well timed sneeze for Ryu) and Kirby's not exactly mobile. Again, I don't main him and I rarely see anyone use him so maybe some Kirby mains might want to open up the floor for this.

 

[soniczx123]

I don't see how Kirby vs Ryu or ZSS could be even. If people say Sonic is godawful, I don't see how ZSS could be good with her ranged attacks, more aggressive offstage presence, and much more reliable kill set ups from aerials and grabs. As for Ryu, if fast, combo oriented characters like Fox, Pikachu, and Sonic can't claim an advantage against Ryu, I don't see what Kirby's got on them aside from his pink pancake crouch. Characters like Pikachu and Fox can run circles around him but they are also in kill range at like 50% (which is basically two combos and a well timed sneeze for Ryu) and Kirby's not exactly mobile. Again, I don't main him and I rarely see anyone use him so maybe some Kirby mains might want to open up the floor for this.

Crouch. Destroys Falcons and ZSS's game completely.

 

[Megamang]

So, as someone else said, it is more about the density of the smash community, which correlates with regular pop density but not exactly. For producing top level players, a big scene grinding together with a focus on improvement will forge some downright dangerous MOFOs.


Hey, im back to bring Megaman to every discussion.


Emblem Lord Turns out Scatt was holding Ryu in his pocket. Im excited to see how it works. I personally like doing it as well, they are so different and powerful in their own way.


Interestingly enough, the main problem with Ryu/MM from a MU perspective (besides arguably Shiek) is... pikachu! He has relevance as a Scatt/MEGAMANG counter. CP Meta!

Im just rambling now so ill stop. But yea, a 'pocket megaman' is a dangerous and cool thing. Learning how to use lemons properly isn't really that hard, and simply having a good skill level with pellets is enough to pull out MM for some MU's he just lemons all over anyways. Villager in particular HATES lemons, I love that MU.


EDIT: Fatmanonice Kirby with Hadouken is really fun to play as. His hoverability and multiple jumps combined with slow red fireball really helps alleviate his issues in the nuetral. And eating Ryu isn't *that* hard, compared to other MUs. You can snag it out of a juggle, especially if you notice a trend of landing with FA.

Dair being a kill confirm and multi hit is nice, but Ryu just won't risk grounded FA if he knows the MU so it doesn't really define anything. I still think Ryu wins FWIW, kirby just does 'surprisingly well' which is common for many top tier MUs.

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

How do you believe Shulk loses against? I have heard differing options from Tremendo Dude and or local Shulk.

shulk loses against the majority of top tiers, but none of those Mus are as bad as diddy Kong or fox. For those Mus, it's better off picking a secondary.

 

[|RK|]

But Kirby as a counterpick? What MUs would Kirby be advantageous in that would warrant his use as a CP? Being a good CP=/=barely getting by in MUs, you should be winning those in theory

That's definitely true, so unless you're struggling with ZSS, Fox, and Wii Fit Trainer (lol), Kirby is probably better off as one of many pockets. Besides that, we're only talking about optionally played MUs. In the current meta game, the Kirby MU isn't that well known. So he has some tools he can abuse on top of surprises for the opponent.

I don't see how Kirby vs Ryu or ZSS could be even. If people say Sonic is godawful, I don't see how ZSS could be good with her ranged attacks, more aggressive offstage presence, and much more reliable kill set ups from aerials and grabs. As for Ryu, if fast, combo oriented characters like Fox, Pikachu, and Sonic can't claim an advantage against Ryu, I don't see what Kirby's got on them aside from his pink pancake crouch. Characters like Pikachu and Fox can run circles around him but they are also in kill range at like 50% (which is basically two combos and a well timed sneeze for Ryu) and Kirby's not exactly mobile. Again, I don't main him and I rarely see anyone use him so maybe some Kirby mains might want to open up the floor for this.

Quite simply, Sonic's strengths are entirely unique in the MU. The primary issue in Sonic vs Kirby is speed camping. An aggressive Sonic is an issue for Kirby, but not that bad because Kirby loves it when people approach him. Optimal Sonic play (see: Wrath) is the main issue.

ZSS's strengths aren't too painful for a grounded Kirby, because despite her mobility, she finds Kirby significantly harder to hit and keep a lead against. A missed grab can be punished by up to 50% damage, landing on Kirby is only asking for a usmash or utilt, and ZSS is light enough that she won't take too much damage before she's lost a stock. Offstage isn't great for Kirby, but multiple jumps allow him to avoid more offstage pressure than other characters. If he has to go low, it won't be great for him, though.

Ryu... I'm not sure about him. I do know that some Ryu's have been getting bodied by Kirby, but that seems to be MU experience more than anything. Emblem Lord says that Ryu needs to stay grounded in that MU, and it makes sense - plenty of Ryu's tools can be crouched and punished with uptilt. Or, if you're jumping at Kirby, just punished by uptilt. Ryu's grounded tools (especially dtilt) are important, then. It allows him to pressure and combo Kirby.

Either way, Kirby can hold his own there, despite dying crazy early. Not gonna give a number, because I have no clue.

 

[soniczx123]

Optimal Sonic play (see: Wrath) is the main issue.

Wrath isn't optimal. Your point still stands, but he doesn't play optimal.

 

[Megamang]

Having an adaptable projectile like Hadouken just... fits for kirby. Not to repeat myself too much, but it really feels like something that completes him more than most other copy abilities. Not how monado makes him abusively strong and it seems out of place, but a projectile you can control the distance and choose to be single/multihit, but doesn't really win in any projectile wars, really fits ol' Kirb.


Plus, I can imagine between bair/dair, kirby is actually decent at gimping Ryu.

But yea, disjoints with massive damage, powerful kill confirms, and dsmash (lul) seems like enough to really hurt the pink puffball.


But.. being so light and floaty is nice as well. Its not like a single utilt ends his stock. A dair at moderate percentage will though.


With decent SDI/DI, I doubt utilt-> TRSK will sweetspot. Dtilt and jab im not sure about.

 

[Illusion.]

Wrath isn't optimal. Your point still stands, but he doesn't play optimal.

What's "optimal" then?

 

[|RK|]

Wrath isn't optimal. Your point still stands, but he doesn't play optimal.

Fair enough - I thought the consensus was that he was closer to optimal Sonic play. I should say "campy" instead of "optimal," my apologies.

 

[Megamang]

Well, its probably MU dependent. Wrath's style is almost certainly optimal against, say, Kirby, so I think your usage of the words fit.


Its a touchy subject due to Sonic's different playstyles, and how some are... controversial, to say the least. But yes, camping is often optimal, for many characters.

 

[soniczx123]

What's "optimal" then?

Optimizing Sonic's movement, punish game and pressure. Effectively allowing Sonic to rack up tons of damage from each conversion and being slippery af, allowing him to never lose the lead.

Well, its probably MU dependent. Wrath's style is almost certainly optimal against, say, Kirby, so I think your usage of the words fit.


Its a touchy subject due to Sonic's different playstyles, and how some are... controversial, to say the least. But yes, camping is often optimal, for many characters.

Indeed, it just so happens that Wrath's style is really effective against Ally's Mario and those who easily break down mentally.

 

[|RK|]

One more Kirby thing - I see a lot of people talking about how difficult it is to get an inhale, but we can actually confirm it off of weak utilt at low percents. Weak utilt, in turn, can come from a grab. So basically, fthrow > ffuair > reverse utilt > weak utilt > inhale. So it doesn't really take a hard read early on.

 

[Megamang]

Out of curiosity, what are you giving up when you confirm into the inhale vs continuing a juggle? And can SDI up+away save you from that string?

 

[|RK|]

Out of curiosity, what are you giving up when you confirm into the inhale vs continuing a juggle? And can SDI up+away save you from that string?

Inhale itself does about 10%, so you're giving up a continuous combo and potentially cutting off a lot of the damage you can get. On the other hand, if the copy ability lets you play neutral better, this shouldn't be too much of an issue.

I believe the combo to inhale is true, but I'd need someone like @Phan7om to confirm/deny that for me.

 

[Megamang]

I was asking about the continuous combo in particular. If you are giving up 25% at the end for the Hadouken, certainly it is worth it. But if you give up like 50%... it might not even be worth it, since you might lose it without doing much.

 

[|RK|]

I was asking about the continuous combo in particular. If you are giving up 25% at the end for the Hadouken, certainly it is worth it. But if you give up like 50%... it might not even be worth it, since you might lose it without doing much.

Ah, depends on the character. For Ryu specifically, you're not giving up too much. Maybe about 25%, as you said.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I'm actually kind of surprised to hear that Kirby can do input Hadokens at all. I would have thought that was tied to Ryu specifically, not the special move.