Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Sonicninja115]

Shield is a fine option... Mewtwo's spotdodge is also significantly less of a commitment than most grabs, especially dash grabs, since we're talking about shield dropping.

If you are out of shield stun before f11, you have to wait until f11 to drop your shield. With 4f of shield stun, if it's shielded on f4-6, it has an ambiguous extra 3-1f of 'artificial advantage' on shield drop.

Sheik's FAir requires her to jump.
Diddy Dtilt doesn't have as much range.

Edit: Comparing it to 2 of the safest moves in the game doesn't really help you argue "this isn't as good as you think it is"

My point with Shieks Fair, and even Diddy's fair is this. Mewtwo can shield, but Shield losses to Dash Grab and possibly even regular grab. Then, Spotdodge and roll will lose to Sh Fair from many characters as Mewtwo has a gigantic vertical hurtbox, making it easy to SH Fair. So, Diddy's Fair is frame 6. Being -8 OoS, Diddy kong can SH Fair, if spotdodged, he can then laglessly land and Dtilt. The Spotdodge would come out a frame or 2 before the Fair hit. (All theoretical as nobody is perfect. It is even easier to punish an imperfect Dtilt.) The spotdodge has invincibility on frames 2-14 with an FAF of 25. This gives Diddy kong 20 open frames in the air in order to land in time to get the Dtilt. Plenty of open frames.

Shield is the same. Mewtwo can PS the Fair, But Diddy is still safe as the pushback of the base Dtilt, though slight, is enough to space Diddy kong at an appropriate range. Resetting to neutral.

Anyways, Shield losses hard to grabs. And spotdodge losses to double grabs, waiting it out and the above scenario. Diddy kong is just one scenario. The victim could also jump away, roll or do a plethora of defensive options and not be able to get punished. A dtilt on Shield is a neutral accomplishment for Mewtwo, with a possibility of getting punished. Either the victim leaves and resets neutral, or the victim attacks and has the possibility of hitting Mewtwo and remaining safe. Remember that Mewtwo's own OoS options are mediocre at best. So, the victim could put a usually unsafe aerial on M2's shield without having to worry as much. His fastest options are a frame 11 Fair and a frame 7 shield grab. Shieldrop Dtilt is laughable.

So, a counterattack could go relatively unpunished. Mewtwo's best options are retreat with roll, as he has a high chance of getting stuck in shield and Spotdodging isn't the safest of options. The best option for Mewtwo after Base Dtilt getting shielded is to roll away or phase and hope to avoid a punish.

 

[Locke 06]

My point with Shieks Fair, and even Diddy's fair is this. Mewtwo can shield, but Shield losses to Dash Grab and possibly even regular grab. Then, Spotdodge and roll will lose to Sh Fair from many characters as Mewtwo has a gigantic vertical hurtbox, making it easy to SH Fair. So, Diddy's Fair is frame 6. Being -8 OoS, Diddy kong can SH Fair, if spotdodged, he can then laglessly land and Dtilt. The Spotdodge would come out a frame or 2 before the Fair hit. (All theoretical as nobody is perfect. It is even easier to punish an imperfect Dtilt.) The spotdodge has invincibility on frames 2-14 with an FAF of 25. This gives Diddy kong 20 open frames in the air in order to land in time to get the Dtilt. Plenty of open frames.

Shield is the same. Mewtwo can PS the Fair, But Diddy is still safe as the pushback of the base Dtilt, though slight, is enough to space Diddy kong at an appropriate range. Resetting to neutral.

Anyways, Shield losses hard to grabs. And spotdodge losses to double grabs, waiting it out and the above scenario. Diddy kong is just one scenario. The victim could also jump away, roll or do a plethora of defensive options and not be able to get punished. A dtilt on Shield is a neutral accomplishment for Mewtwo, with a possibility of getting punished. Either the victim leaves and resets neutral, or the victim attacks and has the possibility of hitting Mewtwo and remaining safe. Remember that Mewtwo's own OoS options are mediocre at best. So, the victim could put a usually unsafe aerial on M2's shield without having to worry as much. His fastest options are a frame 11 Fair and a frame 7 shield grab. Shieldrop Dtilt is laughable.

So, a counterattack could go relatively unpunished. Mewtwo's best options are retreat with roll, as he has a high chance of getting stuck in shield and Spotdodging isn't the safest of options. The best option for Mewtwo after Base Dtilt getting shielded is to roll away or phase and hope to avoid a punish.

... you know that most characters when they dtilt a shield get punished 100% of the time and are at a frame disadvantage greater than -1, right?

You sound like a Sheik complaining that she got punished after a landing FAir because the opponent read your next option.

PS: not everyone plays Diddy or Sheik with great FAirs. Your examples are hilariously specific to legitimately some of the best OoS games.

 

[NairWizard]

Have to agree with Locke, some of these arguments are borderline insanity.

Highlights:

Mewtwo can shield, but Shield losses to Dash Grab and possibly even regular grab.

in which we learn that shielding can be punished by grabbing

and

BTW, I am not even going to cover perfect Shields... Those numbers are never good.

in which we learn that Mewtwo's hitboxes lose to powershield, unlike every other character in the game.

Right.

Not to dismiss your wealth of knowledge on Mewtwo or to personally attack you (or even to cherrypick, which I am doing somewhat as you have legitimate points too), but it seems that some of Mewtwo's mains insist on painting a picture of him as this fragile, inconsistent, difficult character with significant problems, when he's none of those things. The character may not even be top 10, but let's be real here.

No one ever defended Sheik's f-air by saying that it could be powershielded and punished.

Think about it.

 

[Pazzo.]

Perhaps underplaying Mewtwo gives mains a better sense of accomplishment?

In any case, he's far from terrible.

 

[Locke 06]

Mewtwo is fragile though. Being that light without a special that can stop momentum (Sheik BF, ZSS flip kick, Villager Lloid) means you get killed early. Large hurtbox is not helpful either along with a weird double jump.

The amount of "Welp, Mewtwo" moments one faces is real. He gets true combo'd harder than a lot (maybe all?) of the cast from weight dependent throws despite his f2 airdodge. He gets worked over by rage + set knockback and strong moves in general.

 

[Sonicninja115]

... you know that most characters when they dtilt a shield get punished 100% of the time and are at a frame disadvantage greater than -1, right?

You sound like a Sheik complaining that she got punished after a landing FAir because the opponent read your next option.

PS: not everyone plays Diddy or Sheik with great FAirs. Your examples are hilariously specific to legitimately some of the best OoS games.

Checked again adding the stale move modifier. Dtilt is -10 on OoS and -3 on drop. Thus, any move that takes 9-11 frames is at an advantage. And approximately 35 characters meet those requirements.

Pazzo. In my opinion, Mewtwo is 6th or 7th. When played optimally, I would say 4th.

I simply detest misinformation. Thus, my informed tirade.

 

[Locke 06]

Checked again adding the stale move modifier. Dtilt is -10 on OoS and -3 on drop. Thus, any move that takes 9-11 frames is at an advantage. And approximately 35 characters meet those requirements.

Pazzo. In my opinion, Mewtwo is 6th or 7th. When played optimally, I would say 4th.

I simply detest misinformation. Thus, my informed tirade.

No. Any move that takes 6-9 frames is not at an advantage. Any move that takes 6-9 frames doesn't get frame trapped. Assuming the 9-11f is taking into account shield lock, -3 is the worst case scenario for Mewtwo meaning -9 (-3-6 for buffered dtilt/jab) is for him pressing buttons.

I get that you like throwing around these numbers, but you have to realize what they mean and how they apply in a real match.

Here's a real situation where you can look at numbers and hypothesize.

Situation 1:
Mewtwo hits a shield with tipper dtilt against Mario.
Mario tries to use his f6 dash attack to punish out of shield drop because it's the only thing that will reach.
Mewtwo shields and doesn't press a button.
Mewtwo disables and Mario dies to a charged usmash.

Situation 2:
Mewtwo hits a shield with tipper dtilt against Mario
Mario tries to dash grab the Mewtwo shield.
Mewtwo dtilts again, hits the base, and is rewarded for Mewtwo stuff.

 

[Lhivorde]

--snip--

What if Mario jumps? Or resets to neutral? I'm probably missing something here, but it seems to me that your situations don't say as much about M2's d-tilt and more about how those two specific options aren't very effective against it. Doesn't a player have a bunch of other options that would be work?

 

[LancerStaff]

LancerStaff
What about Pit is interesting to you. Genuinely curious because I think I may be missing something about him overall.

I find it odd that you despise Marth's gameplan but seem to really like Pit's, when I was under the impression that they kinda do similar things in nuetral (only with Pit having an oddly useless dtilt...) just pit has a better grab game and Marth has a more rewarding spacing game.

Is it that Pit has a tool for every situation in your eyes?

Like I said, Marth is basically the same move copy/pasted to every button. There's no variety, no choice, just wether or not you want to press a button at all which every character has. He plays the neutral but nothing leads to further interaction besides like Utilt, and even then he's like most swordsmen where it feels less like skill and more like luck if he'll get a Uair. He lacks particularly higher or lower risk options too, so probably his best way of finishing stocks past a hard read (which again everybody has) are the same moves he's been using the entire game. Feels like I can play him for an hour and have everything I'll ever need to learn about the character.

Pit's the opposite. Every move is completely different from one another and are almost all incredibly useful. You have plenty of safe and risky options for every situation with reward to match. Even something as simple as somebody above you can be handled in multiple ways. You could just Uair them and take an easy 10% or so, you can Fair/Bair and try and get them offstage, or you can go for a Nair/Dair combo for for a direct 20% at minimum.

It's like... Well, Kingdom Hearts. In BBS you could handle most random encounters with just Magnet and Thunder for practically no cost, with no reason to try anything else. In KH2 you had Limits, Summons, Drives, Magic + Eithers, or basic combos + Reaction Commands with different amounts of effectiveness relative to the cost. While BBS is technically more efficient and rewards you for finding this strategy, KH2 has a lot more viable options to mess around with and feels more rewarding for exploring every option. KH2 is widely considered to be the better game because of it. Power will never be more then a novelty if it comes at the cost of choice.

If you're talking about something more like "why use Pit because viability" then I suggest poking around the discord or the Pit forums because I think I ramble on about it here enough.

 

[Jams.]

What if Mario jumps? Or resets to neutral? I'm probably missing something here, but it seems to me that your situations don't say as much about M2's d-tilt and more about how those two specific options aren't very effective against it. Doesn't a player have a bunch of other options that would be work?

The comment chain is within the context of how easy it is to punish Mewtwo's dtilt on block, in which case those two options would be the most optimal to attempt to punish Mewtwo (and are fairly universal among the cast). If Mario jumps, he has no forward facing aerial that can punish a well spaced Mewtwo dtilt so he just put himself in a poor position. If he resets to neutral, then Mewtwo comes out none the worse for wear for having his poke be blocked, not even sacrificing stage position like with retreating SH aerials; if Mario decides to reset by back rolling, he even loses stage control and Mewtwo comes out with a favourable exchange.

 

[Das Koopa]

8BitMan now mains Diddy Kong and says he will CP R.O.B, claiming that no R.O.B will ever win a "legitimate national" (presumably he means a major)

I am doing what's best for me and going straight Diddy for now. ROB is a CP character that will NEVER win a legitimate national.

— Brett (@8BrettMan) June 28, 2016

 

[Pancracio17]

Pit's the opposite. Every move is completely different from one another and are almost all incredibly useful. You have plenty of safe and risky options for every situation with reward to match. Even something as simple as somebody above you can be handled in multiple ways. You could just Uair them and take an easy 10% or so, you can Fair/Bair and try and get them offstage, or you can go for a Nair/Dair combo for for a direct 20% at minimum.

I get what your saying, but marth can do all of those, except the nair and dair combo thing. But instead he can wait on the ground and utilt- uair or do other stuff. im no marth main but you seem to have a bias against marth

 

[BunbUn129]

Like I said, Marth is basically the same move copy/pasted to every button. There's no variety, no choice, just wether or not you want to press a button at all which every character has. He plays the neutral but nothing leads to further interaction besides like Utilt, and even then he's like most swordsmen where it feels less like skill and more like luck if he'll get a Uair. He lacks particularly higher or lower risk options too, so probably his best way of finishing stocks past a hard read (which again everybody has) are the same moves he's been using the entire game. Feels like I can play him for an hour and have everything I'll ever need to learn about the character.

Pit's the opposite. Every move is completely different from one another and are almost all incredibly useful. You have plenty of safe and risky options for every situation with reward to match. Even something as simple as somebody above you can be handled in multiple ways. You could just Uair them and take an easy 10% or so, you can Fair/Bair and try and get them offstage, or you can go for a Nair/Dair combo for for a direct 20% at minimum.

It's like... Well, Kingdom Hearts. In BBS you could handle most random encounters with just Magnet and Thunder for practically no cost, with no reason to try anything else. In KH2 you had Limits, Summons, Drives, Magic + Eithers, or basic combos + Reaction Commands with different amounts of effectiveness relative to the cost. While BBS is technically more efficient and rewards you for finding this strategy, KH2 has a lot more viable options to mess around with and feels more rewarding for exploring every option. KH2 is widely considered to be the better game because of it. Power will never be more then a novelty if it comes at the cost of choice.

If you're talking about something more like "why use Pit because viability" then I suggest poking around the discord or the Pit forums because I think I ramble on about it here enough.

Marth's moves all look like carbon-copies in terms of animations and his tipper mechanic. The similarities end there. You're over-simplifying this character to an unbelievable degree. What about hitbox sizes, frame data, damage, and knockback? Because like every other damn character in Smash, Marth's attacks vary greatly across all those regards, and thus in their purposes. Marth can use up tilt or fair to stuff out aerial approaches, but he can't do the same thing with d tilt, which is used as a grounded poke, just as a basic example.

Interactions aren't limited to combos or 50/50's like you're (possibly) implying. Any attack, whether it meets its mark or not, creates interactions. Let's say you're at 110% and Marth grabs you at the ledge and forward throws you. No true combos, no 50/50's. But now if he jumps offstage after you, you have to fear a frame 6 tipper forward air, a move that you can't react to. This is a guessing game: either you air dodge immediately, delay your air dodge, contest it with your own hitboxes, or simply maneuver to avoid his attempt. If he choose to remain on stage, he can cover options effectively with nair, fair, f tilt, up tilt, and f smash, or go for a 2-frame with f smash.

Pit seems a lot more varied in his design because, well, you main him. And you in turn obviously know little about Marth and how he works or just struggle in that MU, or both. Of course he's going to look bland if you compare him to the character you main, ie the one character you understand the best out of the roster. And criticizing a character for their moves looking similar is just silly. Marth has always been emblematic (yay, puns!) of sword characters and the fact that any non-throw move that he has involves sword swings fits that design perfectly. Tell me: how would you change Marth so that he pleases you? Change his jab to be a series of rapid punches and knee strikes? Or overhaul his up air so that it's a bicycle kick (the thought of Marth doing that makes me chuckle for some reason)? Well, good job, you gave Marth more variety in his attack animations at the cost of making him less true to his design.

For the love of all that is good, please stop jerking Pit off. Marth is alright.

 

[ARISTOS]

8BitMan now mains Diddy Kong and says he will CP R.O.B, claiming that no R.O.B will ever win a "legitimate national" (presumably he means a major)

I am doing what's best for me and going straight Diddy for now. ROB is a CP character that will NEVER win a legitimate national.

— Brett (@8BrettMan) June 28, 2016

Yeah I think we're getting close to the point where the main pool slimmers down and outside of diehards we're going to see a focal point around these 12 characters:



Ryu and Bayo will remain more niche than the rest

ROB's upthrow change was a pretty hefty nerf

 

[juddy96]

I asked 8BitMan more about the subject and he said he's going to train up his Diddy at local tournaments to get it to about his ROB's level, and then dual main.

 

[Funbot28]

So after EVO, will it be possible to have enough information and testing to create a new official tier list?

 

[Pazzo.]

So after EVO, will it be possible to have enough information and testing to create a new official tier list?

I hope so. It certainly makes me chuckle to see our current tier list in new videos.

Speaking of characters, how do Smash players tend to pick/defend their choices as "viable"?

 

[Pazzo.]

Double post, please pardon.

 

[Das Koopa]

I've completed all four scoring methods (Top 8 Weighted/Unweighted, Top 16 Weighted/Unweighted)

I will also be combining last cycle's scores with this cycle for a long-term results list, so I'll have five pie charts ready within the next day or so, and I'll likely have bar graphs or something.

there's actually something really big in the unweighted list that may or may not surprise people

 

[Ninety]

It's like... Well, Kingdom Hearts. In BBS you could handle most random encounters with just Magnet and Thunder for practically no cost, with no reason to try anything else. In KH2 you had Limits, Summons, Drives, Magic + Eithers, or basic combos + Reaction Commands with different amounts of effectiveness relative to the cost. While BBS is technically more efficient and rewards you for finding this strategy, KH2 has a lot more viable options to mess around with and feels more rewarding for exploring every option. KH2 is widely considered to be the better game because of it. Power will never be more then a novelty if it comes at the cost of choice.

I disagree with your point, but I like this analogy.

 

[L9999]

Like I said, Marth is basically the same move copy/pasted to every button. There's no variety, no choice, just wether or not you want to press a button at all which every character has. He plays the neutral but nothing leads to further interaction besides like Utilt, and even then he's like most swordsmen where it feels less like skill and more like luck if he'll get a Uair. He lacks particularly higher or lower risk options too, so probably his best way of finishing stocks past a hard read (which again everybody has) are the same moves he's been using the entire game. Feels like I can play him for an hour and have everything I'll ever need to learn about the character.

Pit's the opposite. Every move is completely different from one another and are almost all incredibly useful. You have plenty of safe and risky options for every situation with reward to match. Even something as simple as somebody above you can be handled in multiple ways. You could just Uair them and take an easy 10% or so, you can Fair/Bair and try and get them offstage, or you can go for a Nair/Dair combo for for a direct 20% at minimum.

Jab is way different than Dair. Shield Breaker has nothing to do with Fair. Dancing Blade is way different than Up Tilt. Side Tilt is a clutch kill move, Down Tilt is not but it is useful for poking....I don't get your point. All of Marth's moves are different and all of them have a purpose. Even garbage like Dair, Down Smash and Up Smash do something (Dash Attack doesn't exist). His throws may not combo like Pits, but they setup for bad situations, Down Throw leaves you up to get faired/Uaired or Utilted if you don't predict Marth right, Foward and Back Throw send offstage, where Marth wants his victims, and Up Throw is a clutch killer against lightweights.

8BitMan now mains Diddy Kong and says he will CP R.O.B, claiming that no R.O.B will ever win a "legitimate national" (presumably he means a major)
About time some

I am doing what's best for me and going straight Diddy for now. ROB is a CP character that will NEVER win a legitimate national.

— Brett (@8BrettMan) June 28, 2016

About time someone speaks the hard truth. R.O.B is painful to watch against top tiers. I watched ESAM VS Mr. Eric and it looked awful. Eric couldn't do a single thing because Pikachu doesn't give a single damn about anything R.O.B even thinks. I also watched random Cloud vs random R.O.B and once again, painful to watch. And according to R.O.B players ZSS is unwinnable(?) All of this is because R.O.B is a giant sandbag that gets manhandled at the edge. Whenever the next tier list comes out I expect R.O.B to fall hard.

 

[Trifroze]

ROB 50:50 kills ZSS off of grab at ~80% which isn't that much more than what ZSS needs to start her own juggle and offstage dominance on ROB. It'd be silly to call the matchup unwinnable for ROB, but it's still a large disadvantage.

Yeah I think we're getting close to the point where the main pool slimmers down and outside of diehards we're going to see a focal point around these 12 characters:



Ryu and Bayo will remain more niche than the rest

ROB's upthrow change was a pretty hefty nerf

Don't see why anyone would switch to Ness since he seems to be among the characters people are switching away from. ZSS, Sonic, Mewtwo and to an extent Rosalina have been pretty niche for a long time now and will probably remain that way, although out of all of them Mewtwo is the least "different". Sheik is way too much effort and Mario relies too much on high level concepts to do well since he lacks the mobility and range to just run around throwing out stuff to cover and punish options compared to the rest. This is a problem at higher levels where people make less mistakes and have hazier habits, although it's also a problem for Sheik getting kills, ZSS getting grabs etc.

Most high tier and below mains will likely switch to Cloud, Diddy and Fox. They also have the most results worldwide by far in the past few months when you look at all 100+ player tournaments (Sheik is up there too but she has the whole legacy thing behind her).

 

[Deleted member 269706]

8BitMan now mains Diddy Kong and says he will CP R.O.B, claiming that no R.O.B will ever win a "legitimate national" (presumably he means a major)

I am doing what's best for me and going straight Diddy for now. ROB is a CP character that will NEVER win a legitimate national.

— Brett (@8BrettMan) June 28, 2016

I find the juxtaposition between 8BitMan and Tweek quite fascinating.

You have one person saying, "Look, this isn't working. I need to try something else." Whereas the other (who previously made a similar decision) is now re-integrating his old characters into his play.

It's players like these who intrigue me though because while they both did switch to top tier characters, they still held onto the lower ones. Their secondaries aren't just another top tier, but much more unique characters. I hope more players go with this approach, it would certainly make for more dynamic and interesting matches.

 

[Radical Larry]

So after EVO, will it be possible to have enough information and testing to create a new official tier list?

Nope, we'll have to wait at least 8 months afterwards or up to 2 years, just in case there's not a patch after the tier list. We can never be truly sure about making a new tier list just yet, as we could have matches and the Meta is keeping on with its evolution.

However, I might make a thread that can be solely for how Tier Lists should be constructed, since this thread has that as a Red topic here. I'm not saying anything here at all, and I'm not saying anything...yet.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Until more top level players pick up as CPs, solo go through bracket relatively unchallenged.

Problem with every one of those characters except Megaman is that they are feast or famine and have stonewall counterpicks. As a Villager main, I'd argue Cloud's a problem while fighting Mario is like trying to walk on broken glass without cutting yourself (two of the easiest characters to pick up in the game, what could possibly go wrong?) Although literally five people play her, Rosalina might as well be a middle finger in a dress when it comes to Villager. I know Kirby and Luigi have issues with being zoned/camped out. Megaman and Lucario also have fairly steep learning curves and Lucario's is especially unforgiving. This all said, the idea kind of has its limits in that its success depends on if your opponent knows how to counterpick them.

 

[TurboLink]

Problem with every one of those characters except Megaman is that they are feast or famine and have stonewall counterpicks. As a Villager main, I'd argue Cloud's a problem while fighting Mario is like trying to walk on broken glass without cutting yourself (two of the easiest characters to pick up in the game, what could possibly go wrong?) Although literally five people play her, Rosalina might as well be a middle finger in a dress when it comes to Villager. I know Kirby and Luigi have issues with being zoned/camped out. Megaman and Lucario also have fairly steep learning curves and Lucario's is especially unforgiving. This all said, the idea kind of has its limits in that its success depends on if your opponent knows how to counterpick them.

Is the Mario matchup really that bad for Villager? Is it really worse than the Cloud matchup?

 

[juddy96]

Jab is way different than Dair. Shield Breaker has nothing to do with Fair. Dancing Blade is way different than Up Tilt. Side Tilt is a clutch kill move, Down Tilt is not but it is useful for poking....I don't get your point. All of Marth's moves are different and all of them have a purpose. Even garbage like Dair, Down Smash and Up Smash do something (Dash Attack doesn't exist). His throws may not combo like Pits, but they setup for bad situations, Down Throw leaves you up to get faired/Uaired or Utilted if you don't predict Marth right, Foward and Back Throw send offstage, where Marth wants his victims, and Up Throw is a clutch killer against lightweights.


About time someone speaks the hard truth. R.O.B is painful to watch against top tiers. I watched ESAM VS Mr. Eric and it looked awful. Eric couldn't do a single thing because Pikachu doesn't give a single damn about anything R.O.B even thinks. I also watched random Cloud vs random R.O.B and once again, painful to watch. And according to R.O.B players ZSS is unwinnable(?) All of this is because R.O.B is a giant sandbag that gets manhandled at the edge. Whenever the next tier list comes out I expect R.O.B to fall hard.

Technically Eric is ESAM too

 

[Fatmanonice]

Is the Mario matchup really that bad for Villager? Is it really worse than the Cloud matchup?

It's doable but things can crash and burn very quickly from a single cape. Mario reads a pointblank fair/bair and you're accidentally dying at 70% if you're not center stage. Lloyd rockets and fsmashes can also heavily backfire on you too and it goes without saying that trying to cut down a tree is basically a game of chicken. It's a match up that has to be approached very carefully.

Add in: I guess you could say it's karma. You know how Villager can instantaneously kill or break the shields of some characters if he pockets just the right projectile? That's basically the Mario match up when your percentage is up.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I find the juxtaposition between 8BitMan and Tweek quite fascinating.

You have one person saying, "Look, this isn't working. I need to try something else." Whereas the other (who previously made a similar decision) is now re-integrating his old characters into his play.

It's players like these who intrigue me though because while they both did switch to top tier characters, they still held onto the lower ones. Their secondaries aren't just another top tier, but much more unique characters. I hope more players go with this approach, it would certainly make for more dynamic and interesting matches.

I wonder if Tweek is taking cues from Prince Ramen vs. Zero and Jade vs. Trela and trying to use his Bowser Jr. experience (and Wario apparently) to capitalize on opponent unfamiliarity.

 

[anas abou]

What is sheik doing outside of top 10, let alone top 5 with her current amazing results?

-shiek can't kill and gets very little reward for winning neutral at high percents, she only gets results cuz really good players sticked to her after the nerfs, anyway i put her at 8 place learn how to count.

Why are sonic and megaman so low?

-sonic is just not as good as the characters above him, when playing at a high level of couse, and megaman has to play out of his mind to do anything, he gets very little reward for what he does (mostly).

I can buy fox having the potential to be number one, but he doesn't have the results to prove it yet.

-he does have very good consistent results at the span of the games lifetime, plus he can do everything so well (except kill sometimes/grab game) and has such good frame data and speed and combos and setups and mindgames...etc.

The low tiers look about right for the most part but duck hunt doesn't belong there.

-duck hunt is so bad at a high level lol, the can is so overrated and easy to work around it's not even funny.

Sorry, I don't agree at all with this list and I think we should hold off posting personal tier lists until at least after evo or not without explanations to supplement our placements.

-ok, i agree with you on this one

 

[Jexulus]

Nope, we'll have to wait at least 8 months afterwards or up to 2 years, just in case there's not a patch after the tier list. We can never be truly sure about making a new tier list just yet, as we could have matches and the Meta is keeping on with its evolution.

However, I might make a thread that can be solely for how Tier Lists should be constructed, since this thread has that as a Red topic here. I'm not saying anything here at all, and I'm not saying anything...yet.

They released a tier list two days before Corrin and Bayonetta were released to the public, with full knowledge of the exact release date. There is enough data between then and now and so much that has radically changed in terms of the meta, and only now is it showing signs of stabilization. I say stabilized because new content is basically done and patches have winded down alongside it (and because 1.1.6 only changed one character). EVO 2016 will more than likely be the cut-off point in terms of data gathered for Version 2.0.

I am curious to see if they'd put out a Version 1.9 alongside the actual tier list, though. One that would encapsulate the 1.1.4 and 1.1.5 eras when Bayonetta was such a force. The changes brought about by 1.1.6 caused enough of a shift to warrant it, in my opinion.

Obviously, as I am not a member of the backroom, I am not privy to what actually goes on behind the scenes in regards to these things. But I personally believe right after EVO would be the perfect time to release one because it is highly likely EVO will began a new era in the game's lifespan; barring a possible NX port and whatever changes that may bring (even menu and UI changes might significantly alter the viability of, say, the Mii Fighters), EVO will be the last major shake-up the meta will ever have, if CEO is anything to go by.

NOTE: This is a post about release timing and statistical parameters. I'd be kinda disappointed if this spawned placement discussion. That's not the point of this post in the slightest.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Actually, screw the Pikachu thing. Can "Sheik can't kill" being mentioned without evidence be made a red topic, LOL.
Its been disproven time and time again.

 

[DanGR]

Yeah I think we're getting close to the point where the main pool slimmers down and outside of diehards we're going to see a focal point around these 12 characters:



Ryu and Bayo will remain more niche than the rest

ROB's upthrow change was a pretty hefty nerf

I don't get it. What's so special about these 12 characters?; or for that matter, any list of 10, 12, 15 characters that people perceive as "viable"? I don't mean to target you specifically. I don't like these kinds of lists in general. They don't seem to do anything or mean anything, really.

There's no real boundary around these characters that excludes other characters from joining the club. I know and know of plenty of players that have dropped characters listed here in favor of other, better characters also on this list. Players aren't crossing the line at these 12 characters and suddenly curing their character crises. Tournament results aren't showing a big gap between these 12 and #13, #14, etc. Even Peach is getting better results than Ness, recently, and most players probably wouldn't even put her in their top 15, let alone their top 20...25? Half these characters aren't solo-viable at top levels of play, if even that many. Not that this really matters in the grand scheme of things. Good players tend to have a secondary or two anyways, and this trend is only going to grow in popularity as the meta progresses. More on that later. Plenty of characters not listed here have incredibly utility as a secondary, given their current popularity (Olimar, Kirby, Luigi, 2122 short/skinny Brawler), and they deserve as much recognition or more than at least Bayonetta. A pocket Bayonetta isn't all that useful, and she doesn't do much as a standalone character either. Anyways, the line that's been drawn here seems so arbitrary to me, and they always do.

If anything, at this moment in time there's a big spotlight shining down on Sheik and Diddy as the likely #1 and #2 candidates, in no specific order (I'd put my chips on Sheik), with Fox, Mario, and Rosa following close behind... or right up in there themselves- who knows really. Sonic is up there. ZSS is up there. Cloud is probably up there somewhere too. Ordering much else, or tiering the characters in a super specific way, forming distinct cutoffs besides as a way to format cleanly.. any of that is kinda pointless IMO.

---

On this note, I also think the community needs to radically change the way we view tier lists in general. 'Usefulness as a secondary' and 'synergy with other characters and their matchups' are two criminally overlooked character traits in a metagame where secondaries are so prevalent.

For example, Cloud is easily the most useful secondary, and I think tier lists should be impacted heavily by this fact. For the latter, some characters have a few bad matchups than can't be covered by 1 other character very well, or are only covered by characters with really high learning curves, making them unlikely secondaries. For example, who in the world has a Megaman as their secondary, even though he could be quite useful as a secondary in theory? Players using these primary characters are hurt by this. Other characters have several bad matchups, all easily covered by just a Cloud secondary. Having all your bad matchups covered by Cloud is a boon in itself (or even by any single character, that's huge). Said plainly, secondaries are so prevalent that 'Cloud as the perfect secondary' should be viewed as a natural extension of any character whose matchups he covers by himself. Lucario has Aura. Rosalina has Luma. Diddy has bananas. ______ has Cloud.

 

[Nabbitnator]

Is metaknight still at top 15?

 

[Illuminose]

My opinion on Sheik can't kill is...it depends on the matchup.

Take Mario. Sheik can't kill Mario. She really just can't afford to take anything close to the risk required to kill the character at normal percents, it's just not in the cards and you see it all the time. [Yet, the matchup is even and could even be slightly in Sheik's favor. This is one of the cases where Sheik's neutral, her ability to shut down approaches and play a consistent defensive game really shines.]

Whereas then you have a character like Fox, who is vulnerable to offstage gimps, needles to bouncing fish on his recovery or ledge whatever, easily hit by ftilt 50/50s, light, etc. Sheik doesn't have much trouble killing Fox, generally speaking.

Sheik's average kill range probably varies from like 180 to 120 depending on the matchup. It's an interesting question that is deeper than simply looking at her kill options in a vacuum.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Yo, I'm having a deep ponder about the different "fields" of expression in fighting games.

Being in the offensive is expressing yourself, while being in the defensive is observing and absorbing what the person is expressing to you so you can cut in and throw in your 2cents. Some games allow you to do this more than others (ST versus MvC2 for example; MvC2 is way more one-sided than ST in this manner). Prolly another reason why people think offense>defense and why they don't like the spamming of one move sense it looks like they're saying the same thing over and over again.

Combos is seen a lot as a form of expression in that it gives you freedom to do what you want with your opponent, and becomes a mini-game off of that. It distasteful for most people for a game to have long combos, since it can limit the amount of interaction and stuff (though it does intensify the few interactions and makes everything very explosive; like a heated argument or something). The marvel game, anime fighters, and skull girls can be very one-sided games.

Movement is also another field for expression since it's the linking element in attacking, defending, and grabbing. Being able to position yourself better gives you more option to make the angle of your message more acute and precise, a

Then, we have smash. all smash games have a unique sense of interaction in the various forms of DI (keeps them from being one-sided). Expression is on both sides; reacting to DI, DIing in certain ways to fool opponent, etc... You don't just listen, you also talk back and can start your own message in the middle of them talking (DIing out and hitting them), or something.

I thought about this while searching for something expressive in fighting games.

 

[BunbUn129]

Is metaknight still at top 15?

Top 5/10/15 rankings are arbitrary and don't say enough about a character's viability and relevance. Instead, ask "is Meta Knight still top/high-tier" or maybe simply "where does MK stand in the current meta?"

MK being high-tier is questionable at this point. At best he's towards the bottom of it. His representation has taken a hit as Leo, Tyrant, and Abadango no longer main him and only save him for specific MU's. In turn, his results are on a noticeable decline. Prior to the nerf, you would hear MK taking wins and placing high almost every week: S2H and Jband getting top 8 at PAX, with the latter beating ESAM, Tyrant and Ito getting top 32 at G3, Aba winning Niconico (getting MK nerfed), Tyrant winning the False Awakens with wins over Trela and False, Seibrik getting 2nd at TNS, Ito beating M2K at Shuffle (or some other tourney, not exactly sure), Leo dominating Mexico in general with few losses.

Ever since Leo 3-1'ed Nairo at GOML--in an MU that's even anyway--MK hasn't done much notable aside from being used as a CP to Rosalina in top 16 of CEO. Tyrant used some MK at WNF recently and got 2nd but that was with him going Sheik more often than not. IMO he struggles too much against top-tiers to remain high-tier in the long run. Diddy, Mario, and Ryu give him headaches (60-40), though to his merit Ryu isn't prevalent, along with slightly disadvantaged MU's against Sheik, Cloud, Sonic, and Fox, with Cloud and Fox possibly being 60-40, but there isn't any real data that I know of with regards to those 2 MU's post-1.1.5. Mewtwo is also even at best, and I think it's overall slightly losing for MK because of how well Mewtwo can stuff out MK's neutral game because of how ground-based it is: d tilt and SB are annoying as hell to deal with, and MK lacks good frontal coverage so if he decides to approach from the air Mewtwo can swat him with his fair; on top of that Mewtwo has better mobility, while also having high KO'ing potential.

All MK has now at the national-level is his Rosalina MU, especially considering that the Rosalina-Cloud MU is being reevaluated. He's a pretty good CP character, but the days when he could achieve wins with only minor help from secondaries are gone because he can no longer invalidate the theory of his MU's with an absurd clutch factor. The source of his problems come from his mediocre reward from 50-90%: at that percent range he lacks reliable punishes outside of dash attack / down throw -> fair/RAR bair/SL, with the former two dealing a measly 11-14%, and the latter doing 17-22% at the cost of staling his best KO option. It doesn't help that down throw launches the opponent on frame 75 and has 170 KBG, meaning that your opponent should DI away past lower percents consistently. He struggles in neutral against top-tiers and has difficulty getting up from the ledge, which combined with his limited mid-percent punishes, top-tiers' strong disadvantaged states, and his proneness to combos, skews the risk-reward factor against him in his most important MU's.

Smash 4 MK has always required some heavy commitment to maining him, but pre-1.1.5 his punishes made his learning curve worth it. Now he's even harder to play and his reward is significantly worse, which is almost definitely why his best players have switched, aside from Ito.

So, top 15 is unlikely at this point in time. Somewhere in 16-25, in the same group as the likes of Falcon, Marth, and DK, either in low-high-tier or upper-mid.

 

[Das Koopa]

samus has had a relatively unnoticed dropoff in score

around 28-29 for March 15th-May 15th, currently sitting at a grand total of 1.5 points. Noticed this when I was combining the 1.1.5 data with the 1.1.6 data. Bigger dropoff than Bayonetta had lol

 

[Cardboardtubeknight]

How ironic for Zero Suit to be so high up there

 

[Jackal Eire]

samus has had a relatively unnoticed dropoff in score

around 28-29 for March 15th-May 15th, currently sitting at a grand total of 1.5 points. Noticed this when I was combining the 1.1.5 data with the 1.1.6 data. Bigger dropoff than Bayonetta had lol

Jonny Westside needs to get himself to some more tournies for us if that's going to improve I'd say...