• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

Status
Not open for further replies.

Quantumpen

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 4, 2006
Messages
134
Location
Santa Monica, CA
Yeah that's not proof that Diddy beats M2. Abadango wasn't playing the match-up well, especially off stage.

People in this thread have to stop assuming a character wins a matchup because a top player loses a game. Cloud doesn't beat Diddy because M2K beat zero once. Mewtwo doesn't lose to Diddy because Aba played the match-up poorly. He played scared because of Banana and didn't put out much fair pressure, and he didn't have the edge-game down at all. Mewtwo can punish both diddy's recovery options insanely hard and he got back for free every time.

Zinoto was all over that shield reliance and just grabbed Aba every time he stood there in shield.

It's like saying Diddy loses to Fox cause Zero won't stop monkey-flipping and got bopped for it.

It's proof that Aba plays the match-up better with Pac, that's all it proves.
 

NewZen

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 11, 2014
Messages
99
Location
Mississippi
NNID
NewZen41
At this point, I'm curious to see where :4tlink:will land in regards to the eyes of many players. While he still has notable flaws, Hyuga more or less proved that he's not a terrible character.

Where people say he's in the top 15, however, I really cannot see that, as his bad frame data makes that seem rather unlikely in spite of his amazing Zoning prowess and powerful kit (Specifically, F-air and U-air). Also, I thought the Mewtwo:Diddy MU was mostly in favor of Diddy-can someone elaborate?
 
Last edited:

blackghost

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 9, 2015
Messages
2,249
Saj solely used it on reaction, at times where he KNEW it would activate. Not only is punishing a WTime on reaction borderline impossible for the most part because of the AOE and momentary invincibility frames + Bat Within buffer, but with Saj's usage of it it allowed Bayo to shut down approach options from Diddy and Pika that usually body the average Bayo player.
Saj opponents gave him opportunities to use it. the banana pull and standing by its future landing spot was a very simple witch time to get and he was at kill percent. ESAM diddnt zone with pikachu and when pikachu approaches with quick attack and not falling nair or fair its very hard to witch time pikachu. and you cant really witch time on reaction unless its a long lasting hitbox or an active hitbox.
it isnt possible for a bayo to shut down diddy approach options. diddy has a leaping forward command grab its one of the hardest things for her to deal with.
 

thehard

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 29, 2014
Messages
1,067
NNID
Barbecutie
I want to hear thoughts on our elusive green friend :4luigi:

He had very sparse showings this weekend but False CPing ANTi's Mario in their set was the standout and makes me believe in the future of this character. He performed NOTICEABLY better than his Marth and despite ANTi clutching it out I felt False could have won it. Not to mention the fact that ANTi is clearly an S tier player while False is one tier below.

If he really does have a good MU with Mario, and is just waiting for an elite player to develop him to higher heights, he could fall back into his anti-meta role again. We hear a lot that he can hold his own vs. Diddy too. Discuss!
 

Peppermint1201

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 10, 2015
Messages
300
Location
Pennsylvania
NNID
orangeguy1201
3DS FC
0361-7301-1534
At this point, I'm curious to see where :4tlink:will land in regards to the eyes of many players. While he still has notable flaws, Hyuga more or less proved that he's not a terrible character.

Where people say he's in the top 15, however, I really cannot see that, as his bad frame data makes that seem rather unlikely in spite of his amazing Zoning prowess and powerful kit (Specifically, F-air and U-air). Also, I thought the Mewtwo:Diddy MU was mostly in favor of Diddy-can someone elaborate?
It is in Diddy's favor. Diddy can get longer combos on Mewtwo than most characters due to his massive size and lack of a fast combo breaker aerial. Just like most characters Diddy can brute-force his way through neutral with banana and dtilt-upsmash is especially potent against Mewtwo as a kill confirm due to his size and weight class. Mewtwo has counterplay to Diddy of course, with shadow ball, reflecting his banana, juggling him, and gimping him offstage, but Diddy's good qualities offset his weakneses in the matchup.
 

C0rvus

Pro Hands Catcher
Joined
Nov 11, 2014
Messages
1,554
Location
East Coast
I agree with the idea of Luigi being a choice counterpick character. He does well against Fox, Diddy, Mario, and Pikachu? How well remains to be seen, exactly, but just having the ability to change the pace against your opponent with Luigi makes him useful. Though I'm not too sure what makes him that good against those characters aside from his CQC and combo-breaking potential.
 

verbatim

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 29, 2015
Messages
618
Yeah that's not proof that Diddy beats M2. Abadango wasn't playing the match-up well, especially off stage.

People in this thread have to stop assuming a character wins a matchup because a top player loses a game.
I've heard the sentiment that M2 loses to Diddy Kong well prior to this event, or prior to Aba getting double eliminated by different Diddy Kong's at Smash n Splash 2.

Obviously one match isn't the end all be all, but when only one player competes with their character at a top level, the perception of their results will follow their character around, even if they don't reflect accurately on the character. The same thing happened to Abadango and Pacman at APEX 2016 against Dabuz.
 

Y2Kay

BLACK MAMBA FOREVER
Moderator
Joined
Sep 4, 2015
Messages
3,802
Location
Brooklyn, NY
NNID
Why2Kay
Now that I am awake, I guess I will explain the :4diddy:::4mewtwo: match up.

It is around 45:55 , in my opinion.

Diddy can be very annoying. Banana is a high reward low commitment move, and banana confirms kill him relatively early. Diddy Kong doesn't really like to approach, which is unfortunate for Mewtwo because his anti approach tools are what usually convert into his high damage. However Mewtwo can play the camping game, and pretty much avoid his banana confirms.

Out of all the Mewtwo players, I think LoF Blue plays it the best.


Special Notes:
  • When C3PO has banana in hand, Blue stops everything he's doing in waits, occasionally charging his shadow ball some. He dashes around some baiting C3PO to give the banana up. He doesn't commit to hardly any attacks, so he can be ready to catch C3PO for throwing the banana. If fully charged shadow ball is on deck, he will throw that whenever he catches a banana throw and the projectile will not only eat up banana, it ill keep going and damage C3PO. He also occasionally reflects the banana back with Confusion.
  • He knows how to use banana confirms correctly as Mewtwo! Abadango tried to banana throw to up smash at low percents, which hardly ever works! Diddy Kong is too small, and all of Mewtwo's other smash attacks are too slow to catch his opponent in time! LoF Blue went for the best option and used it to confirm into potential up throw kills, because banana throw grab confirms are are more feasible and has a high profit.
  • He calls out monkey flips with up smash. I honestly see way too many people let diddy kongs get away with using this move all willy nilly like this, and is also one of the reasons Prince Ramen was able to pull the upset on Zero
  • When Blue catches a banana, he doesn't hastily throw it. He holds on to it, charging / throwing shadow balls and such to make C3PO come to him, which some times led into banana cofirms for himself, or good damage. Once Diddy lets go of the banana, his neutral goes from great to ehhh.
The only Diddy - specific thing I didn't see him use was using Nair to stop Barrel packs. Nice stuff.

But when you compare that to Abadango's set vs Zero . . .


he really doesn't do this. He goes for many unsafe options. Let's him get away with a ton of monkey flips without even applying any pressure. Doesn't respect Zero's space when he has the banana . . . it is not suprising to me that Blue faced off better against him than abadango did.

It is definitely Mewtwo's worst match up, but Diddy counterplay in general is very poor, and Abadango should be playing better.

:150:
 
Last edited:

BlazGreen

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 18, 2014
Messages
371
IMO Mewtwo's MU spread against the top 9 is something like this.

Slight advantage: :rosalina::4sheik:
Even: :4fox::4sonic::4mario::4zss:
Slight disadvantage: :4cloud2::4ryu:
Disadvantage: :4diddy:

For the record I don't think Diddy is any worse than 40-60. In other news, Mid tier is gonna take years to sort out at this rate.
 

NewZen

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 11, 2014
Messages
99
Location
Mississippi
NNID
NewZen41
I have a friend who pockets Diddy (He Mains :4cloud:and :4rob:), so this was very insightful with the information, guys. Thanks. =)
 

PK Gaming

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 25, 2012
Messages
1,315
Location
Canada
I don't see how Rosalina will ultimately stay amazing when counterplay against Luma develops further since there's still a lot of room for it (as well as not airdodging against her uairs when there's no need for that). Her recovery kind of sucks and getting off the ledge pretty much requires her to jump and mix up airdodge if she doesn't want Luma to get automatically bopped. And she still airdodges for free so much. AAAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaaaa
Man, this is such an important thing to note. The fact that her recovery lacks a hitbox is becoming more and more relevant since I've seen her eat so much damage just trying to get back on that stage. Some characters can really make her life hell when she's on the ledge.
 

Y2Kay

BLACK MAMBA FOREVER
Moderator
Joined
Sep 4, 2015
Messages
3,802
Location
Brooklyn, NY
NNID
Why2Kay
:4ryu: is even. Mewtwo has an easier time winning neutral over Ryu and converting to damage than Ryu because of his high mobility, Down tilt, Fair, and Shadow ball. This is balanced out however, due to Ryu having much more vicious conversions off of him winning neutral with shoryuken confirms.

:4cloud: is also even. Mewtwo's speed and safe pokes allow him to easily keep up with him in neutral, and his strange physics in the air allows him to edge guard Cloud better than most of the cast. LCS is a catastrophic move against Mewtwo and is very scary. Watch out for it, and you will be fine. This is a match up that seperates the good Mewtwo players from the bad ones, similarly to :4dk:.

I think we are approaching a point in the Metagame where Mewtwo's only bad match up is :4diddy:.

:150:
 

Shady Shaymin

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 29, 2016
Messages
492
Location
New York
3DS FC
4098-3217-2048
I can easily see :4tlink: being higher in the tier list than :4megaman: in the long term. The latter is currently riding a wave following his gatekeeper being slightly less problematic in bracket, but lacks reliable kill setups and seems to mostly capitalize on matchup inexperience. He's definitely better than we used to see him, but not as good as some are making him out yo be
 

zzmorg82

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 12, 2016
Messages
109
Location
The Air
NNID
zzmorg82
Switch FC
2476 2506 3411
If he really does have a good MU with Mario, and is just waiting for an elite player to develop him to higher heights, he could fall back into his anti-meta role again. We hear a lot that he can hold his own vs. Diddy too. Discuss!
Agreed, I wish Mr. Con Con could attend more tournaments and truly show how good Luigi is.
 

Luigi player

Smash Master
Joined
Jul 29, 2004
Messages
4,106
Location
Austria
:4mewtwo: vs :4diddy:
It's nice to see that other Mewtwos see that Abadango doesn't know the Diddy MU. It's what was pretty obvious to me the moment I saw him play against one. He didn't play neutral correctly, didn't combo him correctly, didn't edgeguard correctly... it was kinda weird to watch him play that MU. Mewtwo outspaces Diddy with dtilts pretty badly, so dtilt setups from Diddy aren't that scary. Nair edgeguards Diddy almost for free and you can camp him with Shadow Balls. Banana tosses aren't too threatening, though Diddy has a huge space he can cover if he has a banana on the ground and can jump around with fairs or dash in with dashgrabs etc when Mewtwo's cornered or wants to get back to the ground. Since Mewtwo doesn't have a really quick aerial it often has to rely on airdodges to get out of stuff which can be predicted.


:4luigi:
Luigi is a pretty decent character, it's just that some good characters hold him back a bit. Namely Sheik, Mewtwo and probably Rosalina and Greninja (of course there are more MUs where he can struggle but those aren't so common). Though that doesn't mean that he can't win in these MUs. They might just be -1 for Luigi.

He does have some nice MUs against a few characters, like Diddy and Mario, probably Fox as well. Not sure about Pikachu (because if he plays safe and campy it's hard to appraoch him). Diddy and Mario get combo'd for free. Fireballs stop Diddy from sideBing or banana tossing and make him shield. It's pretty tough. While Luigi outranges Mario most of the time, is stronger, and somehow it's really difficult for Mario to get back to the ground if he got hit upwards. He can also get gimped for free if he has to use his upB. Fox is kinda annoying to deal with but once you get in you can build damage from that and push your advantage and his disadvantage. If he ever has to use upB it can be a free gimp.

Though while he's a decent choice he can struggle against safe zoning/camping playstyles/characters, if the opponent chooses to do so. Or at least it can be pretty frustrating to deal with.
His runspeed is kinda poor, so often he might try to use Fireball to help him approach if he has to, which isn't too safe anymore thanks to the added endlag frames (and needles go through them). Jumping above projectiles/approaches doesn't help much since he's so immobile in the air and falls really slowly. Oftentimes he has to try rolling behind his opponent which can easily be countered by using retreating aerials (Sheiks/Grens landing fair) or similar things like that.

His recovery can also be really stressful and frustrating. It's probably a big reason why not many people choose to use him. With no other character do you have to get worn out and be unsure about being able to mash correctly to even make it back.
Luigis sideB is so easy to intercept that you oftentimes can't even use it or you'll get hit away again or get spiked out of the endinglag of it. Even going pretty low is unsafe against some characters. So you oftentimes have to rely on your mashing skills. Without being able to use the jumpless cyclone Luigi gets much worse overall since he's so easy to gimp and edgeguard without it. And even if you can mash... there are times where you just fail and it's pretty frustrating.

Luigi vs Sheik MU:
A Sheik that knows what she's doing can easily get fairs or tilts or grabs on Luigi which can all lead to fair strings to get him offstage. On the ledge he has a hard time to get back, because if you ever use your doublejump and get hit out of it you might die, so it's a super risky option to ledgedrop doublejump, even if you cyclone or airdodge. So your options are even more limited. Cyclone mixups can be shielded and punished for free (even with smashes) and getup or roll can even be reacted to. Jumping can work for a short time until you realize you have to safely get back down again against Sheik.
Like I said before, needles go through Fireballs. If you have a bit % racked up it's even really bad to trade since you'll get hit up and have to land again. Neutral is sooo difficult against Sheik for Luigi, since jumping (besides sh fair) is just so bad. Sheiks groundspeed and dashgrab/attack are so fast, needles threaten, her safe retreating fair is basically unpunishable and sets up for fair strings/combos that put you offstage or at the ledge (terrible positions).
And if you ever lose your doublejump and get hit offstage you're most of the time a goner if the Sheik knows what she's doing. Ever have to use sideB? -> free bouncing fish. No matter how far away from the stage you are, no matter how low you go. The only time when you can use it is if you're suuper high up, or the Sheik hit you so far away that she's still trying to reach the other side of the stage to edgeguard you... every other time she can safely bouncing fish every sideB attempt. With no risk, it kills pretty early, and since Luigi might not have any other option he'd have to use it again. Only thing you can do is hope for a misfire.
Comboing her at low % also got more difficult with her new weight"nerf". The old dthrow -> charged usmash -> turnaround regrab -> dthrow -> fair -> fair/bair/uair (-> maybe another regrab -> fair -> uair) doesn't work anymore, so he lost a lot through that. Now it's super difficult to time the usmash charge to attempt a turnaround regrab. Most of the time you only get like 20 % ouf of it instead of the free 40-50.
And even though her fair range got nerfed, it still outranges Luigis fair nicely enough. So oftentimes I try to go for bairs to be able to challenge anything she throws out. But if she's patient she can just wait (mostly crouched). Bair has enough endinglag in the air to make it a really risky choice (especially since Sheik gets so much out of any hit if she manages to catch you), and even if you land with it it's easily punished with an ftilt, dtilt (both which can set up for free kills at high % or fair strings at lower %) or dashgrab/attack. You also have to get pretty close to her to hit her so she might try to just fair you before you use your bair.

Now compare that to.. Mario for example. In neutral he can freely jump around if he wants to. Is pretty safe, can threaten Sheik with bairs, nairs and uairs which are super fast and safe and can setup for more combos. Can recover much better (oftentimes his airspeed alone will drag him back so he doesn't even need his doublejump most of the time, granting him much more options). His combogame in this MU got better than Luigis after Sheiks weightchange imo (before that it was probably about even). He falls faster, so overall being able to jump around and be so mobile makes him get grabs much more easily to start combos. He isn't threatened as much by needles (since his disadvantage isn't as bad, plus he has cape which can make Sheik doublethink to try to punish a landing with them, not to mention it stalls if he uses it above the ground). And if he gets hit he isn't in a terrible position. The MU is SO MUCH easier, though at this point it's probably kinda safe to assume that Mario could win it +1. Even if you're behind, since Marios recovery isn't as bad as Luigis, he can live pretty long to make up for that and get some early rage usmash KOs.

For Luigi it's really just that he has troubles in neutral, his "normal" disadvantage is kinda risky, and him being offstage is terrible. Last time I played against our Sheik he could just edgeguard me a lot resulting in KOs at probably the 50-120 % range most of the time (because I had lost my doublejump (mostly while trying to get back onstage from the ledge or while being edgeguarded)). That just doesn't happen to other characters because their recovery isn't terrible against Sheik, so they can try to come back since she now has troubles KOing.

So to sum up.. as Luigi you have to be pretty dedicated, be able to (/ know how to) mash, and live with a few struggling MUs and some annoying strategies against him that non-slow characters don't have to deal with.
Imo people could use him as a CP more often, but they'd need to use him well, of course. I think his MUs with Diddy and Mario are +1 (for Luigi).
 
Last edited:

TTTTTsd

Gordeau Main Paint Drinker
Joined
Sep 29, 2013
Messages
3,999
Location
Canada, where it's really cold
NNID
InverseTangent
I guess I'll make a serious Cloud post and not a ****post lest the ground be stained with red and infractions. I think Sheik is a pretty valid counter to Cloud at most levels, and this is a statement I'm comfortable making. Maybe at some of the very low levels she's not, but the reason I think this to be true is because the basics of Sheik, even at not top or even high level, very much contradict the basics of Cloud. For starters, Sheik's basic strings explain themselves and Cloud really can't combo break them all that well, with the other benefit of Sheik's combos and strings vs. Cloud being that they are, in large part, primarily HORIZONTAL. What this means is that, more often than not, when Sheik wins neutral and is racking damage, Cloud is being carried and losing much more stage control than he wants to against a character like Sheik, usually being pushed off of the ledge. Even Sheik's best combo throw augments into a strong horizontal carry, and this is bad for Cloud. Sheik is probably like, the best character who can "sumo" Cloud off the stage repeatedly and figure out how he recovers/ticks. Horizontal combo strings are soooo good.

Cloud's recovery can be exploited by Sheik fairly well as well, it's been stated before and has always proven true. She has the frame data and hitboxes to actually wait for his action and react accordingly. If he goes high she can PS the falling climhazzard and Nair OoS or even just jab him, if he goes low, god help his soul. I've thought about Sheik punishing Limit Climhazzard with the back hit of Nair or a lingering Bair, since Limit Climhazzard, while good distance and speed-wise, does not have very good hitboxes at all (they disappear pretty quickly into the move) and even Diddy Dair can just slam it. Recovering high with Limit Climhazzard is pretty much a never happening scenario but Sheik's runspeed lets her cover wherever Cloud wants to land onstage anyways.

The primary way Sheik beats Cloud is obviously through neutral but also the fact that she has this neutral + the fact that she can basically push buttons on top of him once she wins neutral, and while a lot of chars can do this thanks to Cloud's disadvantaged state, Sheik does it the best because of her neutral. I am fairly confident that if a Sheik knows the basics of edgeguarding and her moveset (which most players should, honestly. Especially if they're playing competitively) then they can probably beat the Cloud player if they're the better player. I should also note that I see mid-level Clouds recover in very awkward and usually unadvised ways, and these openings should be exploited and Sheik is very, VERY good at it.

TL;DR it's not totally free for Sheik but if you know the basics of neutral and some of her basic strings (they're not incredibly complex) then she'll do well against Cloud. I think Sheik is a very difficult character to play in most matchups but I think her basic toolset very strongly counteracts Cloud in a way that makes her pretty reliable against him if you buckle down and pick up the basics. Or you could be Nietono's Diddy and just Dair every Up+B ever by positioning yourself above Cloud and to the right (wish more Diddy players used Dair like Nietono.)

PS mark one other solo Cloud main off the board, Tweek is going BowJow and Wario + Cloud now according to Twitter. There's a trend here. Welcome to Super Counterpick Bros, boys. Get ready to learn and study multiple characters, y'all will need it at this point.
 
Last edited:

Djent

Smash Champion
Joined
Apr 6, 2010
Messages
2,606
Location
Under The Three Spheres
I think :rosalina: will be kept out of top 5 by Luma counterplay and :4metaknight:.

Most people acknowledge the former, but I've seen less consensus on the latter. After Dabuz beat Abadango it seemed like people thought pocket MKs wouldn't pose as much of a threat to top-level Rosas anymore. But then ANTi won the pivotal 3rd game of winners finals by going MK. His actually looked slightly better than Aba's at this phase, but it was still far from perfect. If that's the the level of MK play that can hold her back, then man...Dabuz was right that she just isn't solo-viable.

Anyway, here's my take on the upper character groupings at this point, which is in the spirit of ~ Gheb ~ ~ Gheb ~ 's previous suggestion:

Both centralizing & solo-viable:
:4diddy::4sheik:
Centralizing, but can be CPed:
:4fox::4cloud2::rosalina::4sonic::4zss:
Non-centralizing but solo-viable:
:4mario::4mewtwo:
Non-centralizing & can be CPed:
:4bayonetta::4ryu:
Must be this tall to High Tier:
:4marth::4megaman::4tlink::4metaknight::4ness::4pikachu::4villager:

EDIT: Moved Fox and M2 into different groupings.
 
Last edited:

Wintermelon43

Smash Champion
Joined
Feb 13, 2015
Messages
2,767
I think :rosalina: will be kept out of top 5 by Luma counterplay and :4metaknight:.

Most people acknowledge the former, but I've seen less consensus on the latter. After Dabuz beat Abadango it seemed like people thought pocket MKs wouldn't pose as much of a threat to top-level Rosas anymore. But then ANTi won the pivotal 3rd game of winners finals by going MK. His actually looked slightly better than Aba's at this phase, but it was still far from perfect. If that's the the level of MK play that can hold her back, then man...Dabuz was right that she just isn't solo-viable.

Anyway, here's my take on the upper character groupings at this point, which are in the spirit of ~ Gheb ~ ~ Gheb ~ 's previous suggestion:

Both centralizing & solo-viable:
:4diddy::4sheik::4fox:
Centralizing, but can be CPed:
:4cloud2::rosalina::4sonic::4zss:
Non-centralizing but solo-viable:
:4mario:
Non-centralizing & can be CPed:
:4mewtwo::4bayonetta::4ryu:
Must be this tall to High Tier:
:4marth::4megaman::4tlink::4metaknight::4ness::4pikachu::4villager:
Cloud might have a pretty bad Sheik matchup, but I don't see how it makes him not solo-viable. Cloud has at least been able to beat Sheiks a good amount in tournament.
 

verbatim

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 29, 2015
Messages
618
Fox has some weirdly effective cp's, namely Kirby and Luigi. They just always get eliminated early on in bracket, partially because Cloud outright destroys them and their viability.
 

Djent

Smash Champion
Joined
Apr 6, 2010
Messages
2,606
Location
Under The Three Spheres
Wintermelon43 Wintermelon43 Honestly, Cloud vs. Sheik seems to be getting worse with time. It was back in 1.1.3 that Komorikiri made it look close to even. Since then, Mr.R and now VoiD have really begun picking the character apart.

verbatim verbatim I'm not confident on either of those, but on second thought maybe Rosa is bad enough to call a CP (though it's still winnable). That and the fact that Larry routinely employs counterpicking led me to move him down.
 
Last edited:

Y2Kay

BLACK MAMBA FOREVER
Moderator
Joined
Sep 4, 2015
Messages
3,802
Location
Brooklyn, NY
NNID
Why2Kay
Lucario's unpopularity isn't a mystery. People keep tricking themselves into believing that Lucario is too volatile to be consistent, but consistency hasn't really been an issue for me once I got good with Lucario though.

Mewtwo isn't popular because you can only lose neutral a few times before dropping a stock. This doesn't mean Mewtwo mains can't be consistently good, with enough skill. All that means is that you will have to respect a lot more characters than other top tiers, and for the most part you CAN NOT afford to autopilot.

Too bad not being able to autopilot is a deal breaker for so many players lol.

:150:
 

Jams.

+15 Attack
Joined
Jul 10, 2009
Messages
542
Location
Calgary, AB
NNID
DumberChild
I think :rosalina: will be kept out of top 5 by Luma counterplay and :4metaknight:.

Most people acknowledge the former, but I've seen less consensus on the latter. After Dabuz beat Abadango it seemed like people thought pocket MKs wouldn't pose as much of a threat to top-level Rosas anymore. But then ANTi won the pivotal 3rd game of winners finals by going MK. His actually looked slightly better than Aba's at this phase, but it was still far from perfect. If that's the the level of MK play that can hold her back, then man...Dabuz was right that she just isn't solo-viable.

Anyway, here's my take on the upper character groupings at this point, which is in the spirit of ~ Gheb ~ ~ Gheb ~ 's previous suggestion:

Both centralizing & solo-viable:
:4diddy::4sheik:
Centralizing, but can be CPed:
:4fox::4cloud2::rosalina::4sonic::4zss:
Non-centralizing but solo-viable:
:4mario:
Non-centralizing & can be CPed:
:4mewtwo::4bayonetta::4ryu:
Must be this tall to High Tier:
:4marth::4megaman::4tlink::4metaknight::4ness::4pikachu::4villager:

EDIT: Moved Fox into a different grouping.
Following the Mewtwo discussion earlier on on this page, what makes you feel that he belongs in the "Non-centralizing and can be CPed" tier instead of the "Non-centralizing but solo-viable tier"?
 

Shady Shaymin

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 29, 2016
Messages
492
Location
New York
3DS FC
4098-3217-2048
For me, CEO 2016 was the best tournament in Smash 4 history. Upsets everywhere, incredible diversity all the way through-perhaps the best we've seen in a top 8 at a major like this, some really hype sets, that venue with the ring...just to name a few of the great things about it. Definitely a tough act to follow for EVO, but we'll see how things go.
 

Dr.Megaman

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 1, 2014
Messages
419
Location
Dr.Wily's Castle (New Jersey)
NNID
Dr.MM20XX
3DS FC
1392-5817-5075
It's better than the least interesting character in the game.
He's not really, plus he's unique and relatable and true to his punch out self.

I can see what Sakurai and co. were trying with it, making it a comeback mechanic and giving Mac threat even when he's losing, but...

But it really just means that absolutely nobody wants to engage with Mac in neutral, or even wants to get close to him. It means that absolutely everybody has to double down on the "get Mac offstage and then gimp him" strategy, because oh lol you actually bothered to do damage to him? Whoops, here he comes with the practically unpunishable dtilt, fishing for a ridiculously early KO.

It just makes his kit even more toxic and binary than it already is, and for a kit that was already pretty extreme in those ways, that's not a good look.
Unless it's casual play. Let's be real.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Rysir

The shorts wearing blue anubis
Joined
Oct 5, 2014
Messages
3,539
Location
Maryland
NNID
Rhysir
3DS FC
3394-4486-9387
Lucario's unpopularity isn't a mystery. People keep tricking themselves into believing that Lucario is too volatile to be consistent, but consistency hasn't really been an issue for me once I got good with Lucario though.

Mewtwo isn't popular because you can only lose neutral a few times before dropping a stock. This doesn't mean Mewtwo mains can't be consistently good, with enough skill. All that means is that you will have to respect a lot more characters than other top tiers, and for the most part you CAN NOT afford to autopilot.

Too bad not being able to autopilot is a deal breaker for so many players lol.

:150:
Lucario has quite a few reasons for not being a popular pick.

Some of which are that he struggles against better frame data characters, has an annoying time against fast characters, viciously struggles against swords, requires a ton of playtime attention and has to deal with 0%- 60% aura which has low damage and no big numbers combo that most characters have.

It really comes down to the question: Do you want to go through the struggle of learning lucario for the long run?
And for a lot of people the answer is no.
 

Djent

Smash Champion
Joined
Apr 6, 2010
Messages
2,606
Location
Under The Three Spheres
Jams. Jams. Hmm maybe he should go there. I think he loses to Diddy, but it might not be bad enough to count as an effective CP. I'm moving him up unless someone else can think of other characters he clearly loses to.

...besides :4duckhunt: :troll:
 

Yonder

Smashboard's 1st Sole Survivor
Joined
Oct 9, 2007
Messages
3,549
Location
Canada,BC
NNID
Skullicide
3DS FC
4055-4053-1813
Short and simple about Luigi: He is a good unexplored CP character. He can challenge :4fox::4mario::4diddy::4pikachu: very well. All the "good" characters in the current meta. Probably has a +1 on all of them...maybe even on Pika.

Then he gets bopped by random... well, kinda underused atm characterslike :4wiremac::4samus::4greninja::4villager:

Then he loses to :rosalina::4mewtwo::4cloud::4megaman::4sheik:
The "good" characters in the current meta.

So he isn't viable solo. Not at all. He can maybe get top 8 but not much after that.

But you see the first characters I've listen? Three of them being extremely common tourney threats? Luigi pretty much beats them. What other uncommon character in this game can boast to beat all three of them?

So i see him as a bottom high/top mid. He plucks results here and there. But most of all, he CPs three very good characters.

Explore this ideal CP character guys. In that regard, he is one of the best. He isn't a Cloud CP or anything...but yeah.
 

Y2Kay

BLACK MAMBA FOREVER
Moderator
Joined
Sep 4, 2015
Messages
3,802
Location
Brooklyn, NY
NNID
Why2Kay
Lucario has quite a few reasons for not being a popular pick.

Some of which are that he struggles against better frame data characters, has an annoying time against fast characters, viciously struggles against swords, requires a ton of playtime attention and has to deal with 0%- 60% aura which has low damage and no big numbers combo that most characters have.

It really comes down to the question: Do you want to go through the struggle of learning lucario for the long run?
And for a lot of people the answer is no.
That's my thing though. Why are people so afraid of putting in work with a character?

I personally enjoy playing characters that are deep and complex. :4greninja::4mewtwo::4lucario: I feel all are deep characters and I like discovering new things and labbing with them.

But a lot of people are scared of the notion of playing a difficult character. Why are people so scared to invest time with a character? Why do people trick themselves into believing that a character is too hard for them to main?

I'm not judging people for playing easier characters but this mindset where you doubt your own ability in smash isn't very healthy and hurts characters' metagames.

:150:
 

DanGR

BRoomer
BRoomer
Joined
Apr 10, 2008
Messages
6,860
Man, this is such an important thing to note. The fact that her [Rosalina's] recovery lacks a hitbox is becoming more and more relevant since I've seen her eat so much damage just trying to get back on that stage. Some characters can really make her life hell when she's on the ledge.
The more I understand the game, the more I value each character's ability to delay their own recovery.

Sheik has excellent delaying capabilities with bouncing fish. Not only can she delay her recovery by moving horizontally towards or away from the stage to dodge opponents, she can threaten the ledgesnap zone with it too. ZSS has flip jump with some similar properties, albeit with not as much overall utility. A Diddy that is away from the stage can charge his barrels as long as needed to wait out intercepting attacks and get back to the stage at a variety of angles with varied timings. It's not one of the best recoveries, and it doesn't necessarily threaten the ledge as well as other upbs, but it's -the- perfect example of an 'alright' recovery bolstered heavily by the ability to delay the ascent.

Rosalina: far-reaching double jump + very slow fall speed + long distance upb. She has the tools necessary to delay her recovery as long as anyone, with great ledge coverage in upair as well. These traits alone make her recovery to the ledge far better than most of the cast.

That's not to say that having no hitbox on upb isn't still an issue. Some characters have the tools to take advantage of this while others simply can't. Particularly, far-reaching and/or long duration rising down airs are the biggest threats. Cloud, Link, Villager, and Wario are a few examples of characters with dairs that fit this description. Some rising back airs from the ledge cover horizontal recovery attempts easily when her double jump is gone (Sheik, Megaman, DK), but holding onto the ledge and waiting doesn't do much of anything to deter low recoveries. Many characters can only try to force a stage-tech if she recovers from below, which is obviously far less desirable. Mario is perhaps the best example of this.

Overall her recovery to the ledge isn't that bad at all, but definitely worse than the other top tiers. As a Rosa player I'm far more concerned about her inability to get back on stage safely from the ledge than getting to the ledge. Diddy and Fox are the biggest offenders. They seem to cover everything so easily, on reaction.
 

Nidtendofreak

Smash Hero
Joined
Feb 10, 2006
Messages
7,265
Location
Belleville, Ontario
NNID
TheNiddo
3DS FC
3668-7651-8940
That's my thing though. Why are people so afraid of putting in work with a character?

I personally enjoy playing characters that are deep and complex. :4greninja::4mewtwo::4lucario: I feel all are deep characters and I like discovering new things and labbing with them.

But a lot of people are scared of the notion of playing a difficult character. Why are people so scared to invest time with a character? Why do people trick themselves into believing that a character is too hard for them to main?

I'm not judging people for playing easier characters but this mindset where you doubt your own ability in smash isn't very healthy and hurts characters' metagames.

:150:
Less effort + better character = better results + more money

That be the reason why. People aren't afraid to put in effort... when the character is worth it. Sheik and Diddy ain't as easy to play as Cloud and Mario, but they are absolutely worth it.

Greninja and Lucario are absolutely not worth it in comparison, Lucario at most is an interesting Sheik CP gamble. Mewtwo I feel you overrate in terms of MUs, and ends up being in a "almost worth it" range. Strong character, absolutely has more than one bad MU and is very taxing to play mentally due to being such an extreme glass cannon. Even at Aba's level it can come back to bite you pretty hard which is something you have to consider if you want to go for the money.

If you want to go for the money, the best thing to do is:

Pick one of: :4sheik::4diddy:and master them (solo viable)
After that to potentially make your life easier, pick up one of: :4cloud::4mario:(:4marth:potentially depending on how the future unfolds) to give you more flexibility quickly (ease of picking up and learning, good person specific CP options instead of being strictly character CP options)
Depending on region make up, other MU specific secondaries to consider are: :4metaknight::4megaman::4myfriends::4lucario::4corrin::4luigi:(Reasonably quick CP options to learn outside of MegaMan. If Rosalina is common in your area pick up MK, if Sonic is common pick up Ike, etc. Not a full list of characters in this category but some example of ones that are more specific than say Cloud or Mario)

:4sheik:/:4diddy:if substituted for :4fox::4zss::4ryu::4pikachu::rosalina::4sonic::4mewtwo:, you're going to have to pick up at least one character from the 2nd category more or less at the same time if you're going for the money.
 
Last edited:

conTAgi0n

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 9, 2015
Messages
416
Switch FC
SW 1668 7817 3192
He's not really, plus he's unique and relatable and true to his punch out self.
I wouldn't say he's the least interesting character in the game by a long shot, but to me at least, his ability to blow through opponent's moves with his own always felt weirdly at odds with how he plays in Punch Out. In Punch Out you have to block or get out of the way when your opponent comes in with an attack, and then punish the opening they leave when they miss. If you try to challenge their moves with your own you will get bodied. In contrast, one of the most immediately noticeable traits of Smash 4 :4littlemac: is his unique ability to take his opponent's moves head on and blast straight through them with a variety of super armored punches. I once saw someone suggest that :4littlemac: plays more like a boss from Punch Out than like the actual Little Mac from Punch Out, and I think there's some merit to that.

That by itself isn't necessarily a criticism of Little Mac's design, since it's often not advisable or even workable for a character to play in Smash the same way they play in their home game, but I can't agree with the statement that :4littlemac: feels true to his Punch Out self.
 

Y2Kay

BLACK MAMBA FOREVER
Moderator
Joined
Sep 4, 2015
Messages
3,802
Location
Brooklyn, NY
NNID
Why2Kay
Less effort + better character = better results + more money

That be the reason why. People aren't afraid to put in effort... when the character is worth it. Sheik and Diddy ain't as easy to play as Cloud and Mario, but they are absolutely worth it.

Greninja and Lucario are absolutely not worth it in comparison, Lucario at most is an interesting Sheik CP gamble. Mewtwo I feel you overrate in terms of MUs, and ends up being in a "almost worth it" range. Strong character, absolutely has more than one bad MU and is very taxing to play mentally due to being such an extreme glass cannon. Even at Aba's level it can come back to bite you pretty hard which is something you have to consider if you want to go for the money.

If you want to go for the money, the best thing to do is:

Pick one of: :4sheik::4diddy:and master them (solo viable)
After that to potentially make your life easier, pick up one of: :4cloud::4mario:(:4marth:potentially depending on how the future unfolds) to give you more flexibility quickly (ease of picking up and learning, good person specific CP options instead of being strictly character CP options)
Depending on region make up, other MU specific secondaries to consider are: :4metaknight::4megaman::4myfriends::4lucario::4corrin::4luigi:(Reasonably quick CP options to learn outside of MegaMan. If Rosalina is common in your area pick up MK, if Sonic is common pick up Ike, etc. Not a full list of characters in this category but some example of ones that are more specific than say Cloud or Mario)

:4sheik:/:4diddy:if are substituted for :4fox::4zss::4ryu::4pikachu::rosalina::4sonic::4mewtwo:, you're going to have to pick up at least one character from the 2nd category more or less at the same time if you're going for the money.
I'm talking about people who drop characters PURELY because they are too hard. You'd be surprised how often people do that. The existential crisis of mid vs high wasn't my point.

:150:
 
Last edited:

BunbUn129

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 20, 2015
Messages
614
Location
Abu Dhabi, UAE
I think :rosalina: will be kept out of top 5 by Luma counterplay and :4metaknight:.

Most people acknowledge the former, but I've seen less consensus on the latter. After Dabuz beat Abadango it seemed like people thought pocket MKs wouldn't pose as much of a threat to top-level Rosas anymore. But then ANTi won the pivotal 3rd game of winners finals by going MK. His actually looked slightly better than Aba's at this phase, but it was still far from perfect. If that's the the level of MK play that can hold her back, then man...Dabuz was right that she just isn't solo-viable.

Anyway, here's my take on the upper character groupings at this point, which is in the spirit of ~ Gheb ~ ~ Gheb ~ 's previous suggestion:

Both centralizing & solo-viable:
:4diddy::4sheik:
Centralizing, but can be CPed:
:4fox::4cloud2::rosalina::4sonic::4zss:
Non-centralizing but solo-viable:
:4mario::4mewtwo:
Non-centralizing & can be CPed:
:4bayonetta::4ryu:
Must be this tall to High Tier:
:4marth::4megaman::4tlink::4metaknight::4ness::4pikachu::4villager:

EDIT: Moved Fox and M2 into different groupings.
Anti is a better MK than Abadango, no jokes. For comparison, Abadango lost game 1 and won game 2 barely, even though he landed ladder KO's in both of them; Anti 2-stocked Dabuz in game 3 with no ladder combos.

I had doubts towards MK being a good CP against Rosalina based on his difficulty of use. But now after watching Anti destroy Dabuz in game 3, it's pretty clear that despite MK being overall bad as a secondary, keeping him as a pocket for that MU is indeed quite effective. Just as a note, I only recently learnt that MK has only 3 moves that don't send Luma into tumble (d tilt, up air, dair, 4 if you count his Final Smash). That gives you an idea of how garbage this MU is for her, because Luma is effectively deleted from the game; even though Abadango played the MU poorly, he still made quick work of Luma and put up a good fight overall, barring game 4.

Abadango did well in terms of getting rid of Luma (which is easy anyway) and in the punish game; the problem was, as expected of Aba's MK, he couldn't play neutral properly against solo-Rosalina. Look at how he tries cross-up rolling Rosalina, only for Dabuz to roll back too, resulting in an FG dodge-fest on the ledge. He was fishing for a grab, without considering other options like f smash, f tilt, and jab, which are good for punishing rolls at the ledge and spotdodges. There were a number of times when he tried to get the sourspot of dash attack (the one with the best combo potential) only to get shield-grabbed.

Compare that to Anti who at one point, when Dabuz did a get-up roll back at the ledge, used f smash to punish Rosalina, which also got rid of Luma. Anti was in general a lot more patient than Abadango, most easily noticeable in how the former would stand at center stage and throw out f smashes when Dabuz decided to camp the ledge. He also opted for more varied conversions: he used all of MK's throws at least once each, while also converting off d tilt and of course dash attack, which likely threw Dabuz off because he couldn't so easily predict Anti's option-usage in the same manner he could with Abadango.

Imagine if Anti actually was well-versed in MK. Actually, no, such a match would be utterly depressing to watch.

I think Dabuz hates knowing that he won't be able to attend a major without getting harassed by pocket MK's.
 
Last edited:

Y2Kay

BLACK MAMBA FOREVER
Moderator
Joined
Sep 4, 2015
Messages
3,802
Location
Brooklyn, NY
NNID
Why2Kay
Mewtwo I feel you overrate in terms of MUs, and ends up being in a "almost worth it" range. Strong character, absolutely has more than one bad MU and is very taxing to play mentally due to being such an extreme glass cannon. Even at Aba's level it can come back to bite you pretty hard which is something you have to consider if you want to go for the money.
Well you also said I was overrating Mewtwo when I said he was top 15 pre - POUND and look at where we are now :denzel:

But for real though, what are MUs that "absolutely bad"? The only one left besides :4diddy: is :4zss: and we haave counter data against this.

I also believe you definiton of characters that are "worth it" is way too strict. A group of 1 - 2 characters within the the top 25 of the roster can get you through a lot of tourneys and win you money with some knowledge and skill. You aren't suggesting to solo main the "worth it" chars, so a combination of a high or high mid character with a top tier secondary usually works.

:150:
 

Dr.Megaman

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 1, 2014
Messages
419
Location
Dr.Wily's Castle (New Jersey)
NNID
Dr.MM20XX
3DS FC
1392-5817-5075
I wouldn't say he's the least interesting character in the game by a long shot, but to me at least, his ability to blow through opponent's moves with his own always felt weirdly at odds with how he plays in Punch Out. In Punch Out you have to block or get out of the way when your opponent comes in with an attack, and then punish the opening they leave when they miss. If you try to challenge their moves with your own you will get bodied. In contrast, one of the most immediately noticeable traits of Smash 4 :4littlemac: is his unique ability to take his opponent's moves head on and blast straight through them with a variety of super armored punches. I once saw someone suggest that :4littlemac: plays more like a boss from Punch Out than like the actual Little Mac from Punch Out, and I think there's some merit to that.

That by itself isn't necessarily a criticism of Little Mac's design, since it's often not advisable or even workable for a character to play in Smash the same way they play in their home game, but I can't agree with the statement that :4littlemac: feels true to his Punch Out self.
"
If you try to challenge their moves with your own you will get bodied. In contrast, one of the most immediately noticeable traits of Smash 4 :4littlemac: is his unique ability to take his opponent's moves head on and blast "

Only if your opponent is bad. In high level play, there is NO WAY a Mac should go head on. It all depends on the MU. It sounds like you struggle in the Mu. Super Armor doesn't make up for the fact that it's punishable. One missed F smash, then that could lead into your opponent grabbing you and ending your stock and or game.
 

conTAgi0n

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 9, 2015
Messages
416
Switch FC
SW 1668 7817 3192
EDIT: sorry hit enter prematurely, please disregard
 
Last edited:

~ Gheb ~

Life is just a party
Joined
Jun 27, 2008
Messages
16,916
Location
Europe
I think small projectile campers pose a threat to Mewtwo via their character design. Duck Hunt has a favorabe record in Japan for a reason.

:059:
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom