Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[JustSomeScrub]

That's earlier than most of the cast outside of a hard read.

You know when she wants it as Luma will be alive and desynced. And if you're a tall character and don't mash jump it won't work on you AFAIK (unless you get grabbed out of the air or something).

If she could do it whenever she got a grab and it worked on everyone I'd agree it'd be a bit much. But since neither are true, it really isn't that overpowered compared to what other top tiers can do even if most low-mid tiers have nothing that good.


Diddy's downtilt? ZSS's uair-up B? Ryu's SRK? Cloud's LCS?

Idk, Rosa's very situational grab release seems fairly tame in comparison.

Edit:

I almost forgot. If you mash out BEFORE Luma gets into position (it takes a few seconds for Luma to go in front of Rosa after she lands the dash grab for instance), it obviously won't work either.

 

[Mario766]

i thought ESAM was going to apex too?

No he's part of everyone else going to LTC like smart people.

 

[Y2Kay]

Apex and KTAR events always run late in my experience. Don't wanna say NJ's TOs need some work but I'm also not NOT saying that. Unfortunate scheduling for Apex this year. Hopefully they get a better slot for next year or something, it'd be a shame if NJ lost 2 major events (though I think we have yet to really see the last of KTAR). We're already slipping below New York's scene lol.

Also, if I'm considered a high level player, that's incredibly disappointing. I certainly don't feel like one, and my play hardly seems to reflect my expectations of one.

Most of the people I know from tri state aren't going to APEX because of the price alone. the venue fee is over $70, and then on top of that you gotta pay to enter the actual tournament. sheesh.

I also heard a lot of complaining about the KTAR having very poor air conditioning, and the venue being hot and cramped.

 

[sedrf]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

falln revised his tier list
What seems interesting is his assertion about wario.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

No he's part of everyone else going to LTC like smart people.

Really? Well maybe he'll do something crazy and a giant Pikachu discussion happens
inb4 he gets to grands

 

[Illuminose]

LTC 4

Top Threats
ZeRo, Nairo, ESAM, Hyuga

Other notables
DKWill, Dakpo, Jerm, MVD, Karna, Wizzrobe, Mew*2 (Gibus, Gyo, Awestin, SaSSy, Mikeffect, SSGuy, Whiteout, KJ, Hyrule Hero)
--
Apex 2016

Top Threats
Dabuz, Mew2King, Void, Rain, Nietono, Marss, Tweek, 6WX, Umeki

Other notables
Mr. E, Pugwest, Day, SuperGirlKels, John Numbers, James, LingLing, Raptor, Sinji, C3PO, Craftis, ADHD (Chaos, The Great Gonzales, Camalange, Biddy, Mister Eric, Tokyo, Omega, Unknown, BlazingPasta, Minty, Taka, Dark.Pch, Lawz)

I don't know as much about the Texas 'randoms'/hidden bosses so it's harder for me to pick them out, but you get the idea. LTC may have ZeRo/Nairo, but Apex is signifiicantly deeper and generally more stacked overall than LTC. Not sure where this idea that everyone is going to LTC instead of Apex came from (both have ~300 entrants to gauge size). This probably looked true in maybe April or early May, but Apex is more stacked now. I would say that Apex is essentially a Tristate regional -Nairo +some Japan/M2K/Void, while LTC is essentially Karna + a few top players + Texas's second tier players. Pretty easy to see which is a more interesting tournament.

 

[RonNewcomb]

Comparing Brawl's sales to Smashboards' member count put us at less then 1% last I checked, so yeah. You're probably better then the majority of Smashers by the virtue of coming here regularly.

Oh I dunno. My FG loss rate begs to differ. I've Been playing Luigi lately just to break some SF habits.

BTW thx for the Pit tips 80 pages back. Fsmash > ftilt, ftw.

 

[blackghost]

thats a bold statement saying everyone beats mii gunner. ther eare plenty of characters that struggle to deal with walls form the likes or megaman and villager. ii gunner is the only other character that can but up projectile walls that are similiar to those characters. granted miis are known to be underestimated because of the genral animosity given toward them (for reasons that never made sense). but with acess to all their moves i dont know how anyone can make a statment that EVERY character beats a mii of any variant. especially how counter pick heavy we all expect this game to become.

 

[Routa]

Rosa&Luma main that thinks Gunner is the worst character? I wonder why....

 

[FullMoon]

If most characters beat Wario why isn't he in Low Tier...?

 

[LancerStaff]

falln revised his tier list
What seems interesting is his assertion about wario.

I get that Pit has no rep in America but sheesh... Should be above Dark Pit at least.

Oh I dunno. My FG loss rate begs to differ. I've Been playing Luigi lately just to break some SF habits.

BTW thx for the Pit tips 80 pages back. Fsmash > ftilt, ftw.

Contrary to popular belief, there are good players on for Glory and there's a sorting algorithm. Good ol' roll glory is still there if you play on a fresh file.

Heh, you're welcome. If you need any more advice stop by the Pit forums again. Plz really everybody left for Discord after finals and I still can't get it to work at all so I'm lonely.

 

[Ffamran]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

falln revised his tier list
What seems interesting is his assertion about wario.

Just want to say something... I'm on vacation, so don't ask me any questions or quote me since I'm probably not going to respond and if I do, it'd be very late. Anyway, people should know and keep in mind the context of a player posting a tier list or MU spread. For one, Falln has to fight Ito who, in my opinion, is the Meta Knight player who showed us Meta Knight's power. It's not really a big deal now since it's commonly accepted that Meta Knight's a good character. The one people might question is Falco. In this case, Falln has to fight AC who is one of the best Falco players. For Falco, I'd say the best players are Anragon, AC, and then Keitaro who is the most prolific Falco, but I feel like Anragon and AC are a bit ahead which makes sense since they don't have to deal with commentating, editing, hosting, stream running, TO'ing, etc; they have more time to just practice and play Smash than Keitaro who has to manage much more just for Smash. AC's style is based heavily on footsies, spacing, and safe whiff punishing. In other words, he'd be considered to "have strong fundamental play". He also plays Marth and Meta Knight if that matters to any of you.

One moment that may also influence Falln's list is this set: https://youtu.be/ebQC1VeXXRo. They meet again in losers finals where Falln beats AC: https://youtu.be/uzfg_5dr0Do. Consider the context. In this case, Falln has to fight one of the best Falco players who has placed well with Falco sometimes with help and sometimes without help and Falln has felt what happens when you lose footing against Falco allowing Falco's advantage to spike up insanely high. Now, replace Falln with another player and replace Falco with another character. Also, change some of the wording... What you get is that by looking at the context, you can try to understand the reasoning behind certain things like maybe why ESAM thinks Zelda is good for a low to bottom tier: Purple Guy, one of the best Zelda players, or something as flawed as why FOW thought Falco was a good counter-pick to Rosalina: there weren't any Rosalina of Dabuz's caliber, so FOW made a poor conclusion playing against lower-level Rosalina players. There are many others like Ryo reasoning Roy for Ryu or Falln thinking Mii Gunner and Wario are terrible.

Last thing: I would replace Falln's statements of Mii Gunner loses to everyone and Wario loses to most of the cast with Falco as losing to everyone or losing to most of the cast.

 

[Djmarcus44]

thats a bold statement saying everyone beats mii gunner. ther eare plenty of characters that struggle to deal with walls form the likes or megaman and villager. ii gunner is the only other character that can but up projectile walls that are similiar to those characters. granted miis are known to be underestimated because of the genral animosity given toward them (for reasons that never made sense). but with acess to all their moves i dont know how anyone can make a statment that EVERY character beats a mii of any variant. especially how counter pick heavy we all expect this game to become.

I am surprised that he still thinks that every character beats Mii Gunner (He only thinks this is true for 1111 Gunner, but it is still false). The only reason he gave for Gunner losing to every character in the game was because he doesn't think that Mii Gunner can convert neutral to advantage (I gave him a list of true combos and follow ups that Gunner gets when converting from neutral to advantage, but he never responded to my post).

Routa , I am pretty sure it has nothing to do with Gravitational Pull.

 

[blackghost]

I am surprised that he still thinks that every character beats Mii Gunner (He only thinks this is true for 1111 Gunner, but it is still false). The only reason he gave for Gunner losing to every character in the game was because he doesn't think that Mii Gunner can convert neutral to advantage (I gave him a list of true combos and follow ups that Gunner gets when converting from neutral to advantage, but he never responded to my post).

Routa , I am pretty sure it has nothing to do with Gravitational Pull.

but that doesnt make any sense. to a zoning character isnt remaining in neutral your advantage to begin with? its like that in every fighting game ive played

 

[falln]

o my tier list is here again. couple notes

as i wrote in the blurb on the side, my list is not based on the players i play against regularly. i really don't know how to stress this point enough. i see people on the internet draw this correlation all the time and i just want to stress that is almost never true for any noteworthy player. we all see the game in our own way and value characters whose strengths line up with what's important and what's not. so a more accurate analysis of a list like esam's is that he rates duck hunt and jr very lowly because to him the offstage is very important and they get murdered offstage.

i rate marth/lucina/shulk high and wario low in part because i think disjoint is undervalued as a mechanic. another high level player might value faster characters, or another will value characters with the strongest X factors. you see how this is much more valuable than "oh falln lives in san diego and plays ito and ac and they play mk and falco so of course he thinks mk and falco are really good". it's just wrong and honestly a pretty lazy way to dismiss other viewpoints.

finally i value falco because he bodies projectile zoners. IMO he goes positive on villager m2 megaman rob. that's a better spread against high tiers than any of the characters in the tier below him can boast.


edit:

read through a few more of the posts above, mii gunner is just too weak at everything and im completely convinced 100% of the wins mii gunner mains get are against either players a degree worse than them or against someone who doesn't understand the premise of the character. saying something like "the rosa main thinks mii gunner sucks go figure" makes no sense if i'm also saying that mii gunner loses every matchup. clearly not every character has a meat shield and a black hole, ya?

 

[Routa]

read through a few more of the posts above, mii gunner is just too weak at everything and im completely convinced 100% of the wins mii gunner mains get are against either players a degree worse than them or against someone who doesn't understand the premise of the character. saying something like "the rosa main thinks mii gunner sucks go figure" makes no sense if i'm also saying that mii gunner loses every matchup. clearly not every character has a meat shield and a black hole, ya?

Fair enough. I'm just really curious why you really think that Gunner is the worst character. Gunner does have really good neutral and is amazing at cathing people landing (along with edgeguarding when allowed to have Bomb Drop and Granade). Gunner doesn't have that many advantageous MUs I give you that, but most of his MUs are even. I have heard Gunner mains saying that they have even MU with Cloud and I can somewhat see that being the case. Anyways Gunner is really weak to characters with a reflectors due to him being Projectile the Character. I'm not a Gunner main so I don't know all ins and outs of him/her, but you can always talk to Chibo (and if I remember correctly you did chat with him, eh?)
But yeah I'm really curious what makes Gunner so bad. I would appreciate If you could explain a bit more in depth. Ofc you don't have to if you don't want to.

Anyways the "I wonder why" was meant to be just a quick poke to get you answering.

 

[falln]

wrote some stuff got bodied by smashboard's back up and i dont want to write it again. gunner's projectile game is quite atrocious. everything is too weak/too laggy or both, you can literally waltz in with shield/powershield if you know the timing and if you don't it doesn't matter much because it takes so long for him to build damage you get many attempts at it. once you're in he has nothing safe on block and gets nothing off throws. he struggles to get off the edge, struggles recovering, struggles getting out of juggles. unless you get dsmashed on a sv platform you're never going to die early. it's just all bad. i honestly wonder if anyone other than the gunner mains have played 20+ games with or against default gunner because if most people have i dont think there would really be much to discuss

 

[Yikarur]

why would you ever talk about 1111 Gunner tho 8)

 

[Nobie]

What I find interesting about the low Mii Gunner placement by falln is that on a lot of 1111 Mii lists I've been people rate Gunner higher than the other Miis, and perhaps even as the most "complete" of the Mii characters. I've even see the broader argument that Mii Gunner is a more reliable character than other dedicated zoners. I don't know nothin' 'bout no Mii Gunner though.

I do think people underrate the fact that Falco has the fastest reflect in the game. It comes with its own caveats, but the ability to instantly reflect out of an action is crazy good.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

wrote some stuff got bodied by smashboard's back up and i dont want to write it again. gunner's projectile game is quite atrocious. everything is too weak/too laggy or both, you can literally waltz in with shield/powershield if you know the timing and if you don't it doesn't matter much because it takes so long for him to build damage you get many attempts at it. once you're in he has nothing safe on block and gets nothing off throws. he struggles to get off the edge, struggles recovering, struggles getting out of juggles. unless you get dsmashed on a sv platform you're never going to die early. it's just all bad. i honestly wonder if anyone other than the gunner mains have played 20+ games with or against default gunner because if most people have i dont think there would really be much to discuss

I play @AEMehr frequently. He mains Mii Gunner.

Gunner beats Zard by a wide margin and yes I mean 1111.

And Zard does not lose to everyone, but I believe you agree there.


Gunner can literally create walls with nothing but F-Air and the threat of Charge Shot that can and will destroy your shield if it gets you. You can power shield things I guess, but that isn't a reliable thing and should never be counted on as a definite. I will just say this though. If Charizard, a character with one of the fastest dash speeds in the game and has a move specifically made to barrel through projectiles can't easily get in, then how will characters like Ganondorf fare?

Gunner does not have a bad recovery. Did you know F-air can propel people ten times more than it should? It does and its wacky. Gunner has some insane movement options.

Like, I understand 1111 has some major problems, but I don't think you played with Gunner very much or the Gunners you played were atrocious. You're ignoring the characters strengths and are actually implying that there are none. Even Brawl Ganondorf and Melee Kirby had strengths. Mii Gunner is far from the worst character in Smash history.

 

[falln]

if power shielding doesn't exist in this thread then ok mii gunner might not lose every matchup. this is the extent of the time im willing to spend on mii gunner

 

[Swamp Sensei]

if power shielding doesn't exist in this thread

I never said it doesn't.

I'm just saying reliably power shielding is hard.

Even for most top players. They often mess up in all three smash games that have it.

 

[zeldasmash]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

falln revised his tier list
What seems interesting is his assertion about wario.

Uh.......

Kirby & Shulk being above the Pit's, Ike & Greninja.
Falco & Palutena being in the same tier as the Pit's, Ike & Greninja.
Pac-Man as a low tier.
Link anywhere near bottom 10.
Lucina in the same tier as Mega Man.
Jigglypuff higher than Ganondorf.
King Dedede higher than Roy.

This is probably just me, but i disagree with this list quite a lot.

 

[Wintermelon43]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

falln revised his tier list
What seems interesting is his assertion about wario.

And once again, a top player complatatly just takes the Pac-Man icon and put it in lowish tiers without thinking at all into it (Because if they did think into it, he would be like 2 tiers higher). This Pac-man underrated thing is litertatly becoming more and more funny. It's hilarious.

Ah well, at least he put Link at the correct spot......... most people overrate him. And he said he didn't think of results as important as others say it is.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Link anywhere near bottom 10.

Ah well, at least he put Link at the correct spot......... most people overrate him.

These two posts are really funny when read right after the other.

Spoiler

Link is probably somewhere right below the middle.

Not bad, but not that good.

 

[Jamurai]

Uh.......

Kirby & Shulk being above the Pit's, Ike & Greninja.
Falco & Palutena being in the same tier as the Pit's, Ike & Greninja.
Pac-Man as a low tier.
Link anywhere near bottom 10.
Lucina in the same tier as Mega Man.
Jigglypuff higher than Ganondorf.
King Dedede higher than Roy.

This is probably just me, but i disagree with this list quite a lot.

What about these placements is so unreasonable?

Kirby is still carrying his pre-buffs stigma, he's a solid character now with good CP potential. Shulk is misunderstood and underrated. Falco, ya fine, he's not great. Palu though, once again underrated until you see a good one abuse her best tools. I would argue that Pits/Ike/Greninja don't really have a "say no more" case for being high tier or whatever, especially the Pits.

Don't see how Pac isn't a low tier. He's not doing well at the moment. He's one of those "looks scary until you learn the MU" types. Similar to Link actually, although he's certainly not bad, relatively, he's not good either. And there's a lot of competition in that category.

Lucina is somehow perpetually cast to low tier just because she has a more famous and arguably better clone. That's not a good reason. She is solid, and downright scary in the hands of someone with good fundamentals.
It's a sort of Leo situation with Kamemushi, except the region in question's competitive dynamic is different to most others, and level of competition is higher. People aren't convinced how good the player and character are until they wow them on the big stage. I do think MM is a bit low but not by much.

I think Puff is on a similar level of viability to Ganon, they have some matchups where they do alright because of what situations they are scary in; for example in Puff's case, characters who really don't want to be offstage may not have a choice when she gets a conversion in the right area of the stage, and Ganon's case, characters who want to play the midrange game may underestimate his buttons and trading power. But a lot of characters can abuse their glaring weaknesses significantly.

Apart from D3 higher than Roy, and Falco's placement, I can see all of these.

 

[Jalil]

Pac's placed in low tier cuz most of his mains barely go to tournaments or dropped him. His results as of now are basically non existent. People didn't all of a sudden "learn" the matchup and he dropped 2 tiers, while his mains were active he did well.

 

[arbustopachon]

https://www.twitch.tv/dkwill/v/72052278

If someone is interested in seeing the Dk vs Zard matchup, Dkwill fought Sharpy a couple of days ago in stream.
The matchup seems pretty good for Zard, although they where playing over wifi.

Still, though someone might find interesting seeing how a good Zard fares against a good Dk.

 

[Jamurai]

Pac's placed in low tier cuz most of his mains barely go to tournaments or dropped him. His results as of now are basically non existent. People didn't all of a sudden "learn" the matchup and he dropped 2 tiers, while his mains were active he did well.

Well what does it tell you when most of his mains switched or went inactive after a while? I don't think it's a coincidence.

I realise after my scoffing at Pac's Diddy MU I might come across as a Pac hater or s/t. I don't think he's terrible. I just think he preys on MU inexperience, and sort of relies on gimmicks and elaborate niche setups. Someone with good item play, who knows how to play around Hydrant, and knows Pac's few killing options will definitely be frustrating for the Pac player to fight.

 

[Fenny]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

falln revised his tier list
What seems interesting is his assertion about wario.

Falco being high-mid tier is what's interesting to me. I mean his aerial game is pretty good but even then it's pretty damn easy to gimp him once you get him off stage, which makes it a double edged sword. And that abysmal ground mobility?

 

[C0rvus]

I had forgotten about Apex's ludicrous pricing, since I couldn't go. That's enough of a reason to keep me away. It's like they're trying to scare people away; keeping the name after controversy sparked with the series, running it so close to CEO and the same time as LTC even though the January slot worked well before, charging so much for entry. Ugh.

Maybe bias because I ALWAYS get Falco in my brackets, but he's definitely a good counterpick character. He is a bad enough match for characters like Villager, ROB, and Mega Man, but I also think he competes well against characters who go in, since Falco has strong footsies. Probably makes him more relevant than most low tiers.

 

[MistressRemilia]

I'm really struggling to see how Kirby is anywhere above the likes of Mid Low tier at best, i really don't know what the character has done to suddenly be thought of so highly by some people.
Kirby is indeed a recognized counterpick character with a fair amount of good points going on for him: his combos on the biggest fastfallers can get dumb really quick, his frame data on the ground & ACs on aerials are excellent. And that's about it?

That's my biggest issue with Kirby, is there something that i'm not understanding with Kirby, or this recipe enough to make a good character? From my experience, Kirby's neutral is far from exceptional, with a huge struggle to approach some characters, which directly translates into worse matchups against those who are able to either play neutral well enough so that they make Kirby struggle a lot to get anything ( Sonic or Rosalina ) or that outright negate Kirby's biggest quality through their absurd combo breakers while being able to play a better neutral than him ( Luigi ). That leads into Kirby not being viable competitively w/out backup because some of his matchups are uncontestably too hard for him to get through.

Results wise, a lot of people have been talking about the recent results of the likes of Pac-Man, which are, not gonna lie, pretty poor, but what about Kirby? What has he done in the metagame to justify him being above the likes of characters with arguably much better theory, or much better results, or even both of them. I've seen MikeKirby showing off the fact that Kirby is indeed a good CP against Fox, by beating Larrylurr with the character, but every other hypothetical matchup that Kirby supposedly does well or at least goes even seems... hypothetical. KidGoggle sure went fairly close to beating Mr.R's Sheik, but if you look deeper into the set, you'll notice that Mr.R kind of just adapted by the end of the set. Same for Nairo vs KidGoggle, Nairo played it well enough, it was a fairly clean 3-1, nothing to add.

If i had to place Kirby, i'd place just slightly below Game&Watch. In some ways, the two characters are kind of similar: one of their biggest selling point is their advantage state & there is a few gimmicks with the character here & there that allow them to be efficient counterpick characters against 1 or multiple top tiers. However, they are held back by some seriously tough matchups issues against some other top tiers that they can't go through at all. That being said, Game&Watch are a bit better, with the occcasional top 8 in locals as well as Regi & Songn's fair amount of consistency in their respective region.

 

[Djent]

People really can't help having their opinions influenced by the characters they play against regularly. No one is perfectly objective; deal with it.

That being said, it is a bit tiresome to see this fact pointed out in response to top player lists time and time again. We know already, and chances are your corrections exhibit the same type of bias.

 

[Peppermint1201]

So you guys believe you know falln's thoughts better than he does?

 

[Wintermelon43]

Well what does it tell you when most of his mains switched or went inactive after a while? I don't think it's a coincidence.

I realise after my scoffing at Pac's Diddy MU I might come across as a Pac hater or s/t. I don't think he's terrible. I just think he preys on MU inexperience, and sort of relies on gimmicks and elaborate niche setups. Someone with good item play, who knows how to play around Hydrant, and knows Pac's few killing options will definitely be frustrating for the Pac player to fight.

Actually, none of them have dropped him or quit for a little due to his viability. Most of them either just want a break, found the character boring, or thought he was too hard

 

[verbatim]

Don't see how Pac isn't a low tier. He's not doing well at the moment. He's one of those "looks scary until you learn the MU" types. Similar to Link actually, although he's certainly not bad, relatively, he's not good either. And there's a lot of competition in that category.

I'll make a more detailed post when I get home, but pacman's viability doesn't drop off anywhere near as much as people tend to suggest once they learn the match up.

A much bigger issue plaguing lower level pacman players is the tendency to over-focus on learning ultra situational fruit and hydrant techs at the expense of the rest of their kit.

He's a character with a lot of depth and not a lot of players, he'll get better over time.

 

[Phan7om]

I'm really struggling to see how Kirby is anywhere above the likes of Mid Low tier at best, i really don't know what the character has done to suddenly be thought of so highly by some people.

Exactly this.

I never really understood the "good CP potential" when it could be argued that he only beats 1 top tier, and that other (better) characters could probably do the same thing to a greater extent. It seems people just look at raw data and assume the best without looking at what happened in the set. In addition, low-mid level players are probably biased because Kirby can do things like playing a simple crouch, utilt, and grab gameplan and their opponents autopilot their way into a trap which makes people think the MU is better than it is; and then when players like Mr. R or Nairo beat a Kirby they go on about how the player's skill level is so different it shouldn't count.

I honestly feel like people want him to be "good" than to actually analyze if he is "good" or not. Give it a year and the honeymoon phase will wear off. I could go on about how people really dont want crouch camping and timeouts to be more common but Ill leave that for another post

 

[falln]

2 things ill say about kirby. the first i wrote many pages ago which i copy paste here

the things that kirby falls to can be manipulated into stalemate scenarios. he struggles intensely vs strong defensive game play but by replicating it himself + by capitalizing on the leads he can generate with his absurd damage combos at early %s he can reverse this back on other players.

and the second thing is i think the context is getting lost for his placement (alongside the context for falco). the other characters in the same tier aren't exactly heavy hitters themselves.

People really can't help having their opinions influenced by the characters they play against regularly. No one is perfectly objective; deal with it.

That being said, it is a bit tiresome to see this fact pointed out in response to top player lists time and time again. We know already, and chances are your corrections exhibit the same type of bias.

i dont really know how to respond to this but i also dont want to let it slide. i mostly just question the point of posting if the average user really believes that high level players are more biased than insightful

 

[PK Gaming]

Maybe bias because I ALWAYS get Falco in my brackets, but he's definitely a good counterpick character. He is a bad enough match for characters like Villager, ROB, and Mega Man, but I also think he competes well against characters who go in, since Falco has strong footsies. Probably makes him more relevant than most low tiers.

My brother has a mean Falco too

It's like, he's bad on paper but a good Falco can mess you up

Starting to feel that way about a lot of characters to be honest.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

i dont really know how to respond to this but i also dont want to let it slide. i mostly just question the point of posting if the average user really believes that high level players are more biased than insightful

A lot of us have had years of M2K's crazy Brawl MU options, almost every Brawl MK main thinking he's not a problem, Zero thinking pre-patched Diddy and Sheik weren't problems, ESAM and his Pikachu options, etc

There's... a looooooot of bias up at that level. With good reason, you're borderline playing a different meta in a way. But it also causes a lot of oddities... particularly when the top level players keep refusing to acknowledge results and just use their opinion of character potential to justify frankly absurd placements. Like Zero thinking Shulk is the best mid tier when results say he's lucky to be bottom of mid at best. Or claiming Corrin is top 10 in the game when results flat out laugh in the face of that. Or some other players saying Bowser is like bottom 5 when even if its just a slash his recent results clearly put him beyond that range.

Basically: top level players often (not always) end up being horrible at analyzing or looking at anything beyond their personal scope and almost... bizarrely refuse to acknowledge things they really should acknowledge. And then they're asked to make tier lists and it just a disastrous clashing of egos with them all claiming they know character potential the best when it is in fact something impossible to measure (and near irrelevant to tier lists because tier lists are current meta game scopes and not future predictions. Some character could legit have best in the game potential but if nobody touches them for w/e reason their tier spot should heavily reflect that fact).