Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[bc1910]

Diddy's disadvantage, whilst good, is not in the same league as Sheik's or ZSS'. It's in line with above average disadvantage states across the rest of the cast.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Sounds like Dictator (Bison) in ST. Not the safest char in the world but he had several touch of death combos combos, so he ended up as high tier.

He still lost to every top tier though.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Diddy's disadvantage, whilst good, is not in the same league as Sheik's or ZSS'. It's in line with above average disadvantage states across the rest of the cast.

Monkey Flip and 0 commitment B reverse Popgun? Seems pretty OP if you ask me. Every character in the game would kill for a B reverse that has like literally no frame commitment.

He's also extremely heavy for his character model.

 

[Jehtt]

Diddy has to actually be close enough to the stage to land on it in order to consider b-reverse popgun as an option. With his low air speed, that isn't going to happen each time. Once he's far enough off the stage, his recovery is vulnerable.
It's also not great from the ledge.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Diddy has to actually be close enough to the stage to land on it in order to consider b-reverse popgun as an option. With his low air speed, that isn't going to happen each time. Once he's far enough off the stage, his recovery is vulnerable.

Diddy's recovery is very well above average. Hardly an issue for him to be offstage. If being far offstage somehow makes Diddy vulnerable, it's about comparably problematic for ZSS who gets less distance on her recovery than Diddy.

 

[Jehtt]

ZSS has a tether which is difficult to knock her out of out of and a down b with generous invincibility. Diddy has a side b which is beaten by anything with more range, and his up b loses to literally any hitbox since it puts him into a tumble state that takes a long time to recover from, thus not giving him enough time to charge it up all the way.

 

[A2ZOMG]

ZSS has a tether which is difficult to knock her out of out of and a down b with generous invincibility. Diddy has a side b which is beaten by anything with more range, and his up b loses to literally any hitbox since it puts him into a tumble state that takes a long time to recover from, thus not giving him enough time to charge it up all the way.

Any ZSS that uses DownB to recover generally should be punished if your edgeguard tools aren't horrible, as there is plenty of time to react to the animation and hit the end portion of it. The tether is moderately more difficult to punish but can be snagged by lingering hitboxes.

Diddy gets so much distance on his SideB and Up-B combined that he almost never has to fight hitboxes when recovering. ZSS sometimes has to deal with hitboxes directly when she's read hard enough. Diddy does not even leave that as an option in the first place if he has good control over his recovery.

 

[JustSomeScrub]

Ally and M2K in losers today. Nairo also getting upset yesterday. And Japan is full of nothing but random results lol.

I'm starting to wonder why Smash 4 seems to have so many upsets compared to all the other Smash games. Top players (excluding Zero perhaps) seem to get upset all the time. And I don't think you could argue Smash 4 has more competition as Melee for instance definitely has much more and yet the top players rarely get upset.

I can't help but wonder if Smash 4's skill ceiling is a little too low. It seems so many players are able to reach that top, top level of play. Not sure how I feel about it. Don't get me wrong, upsets are hype but when it happens so often as in this game...idk.

Any ZSS that uses DownB to recover generally should be punished if your edgeguard tools aren't horrible, as there is plenty of time to react to the animation and hit the end portion of it. The tether is moderately more difficult to punish but can be snagged by lingering hitboxes.

Diddy gets so much distance on his SideB and Up-B combined that he almost never has to fight hitboxes when recovering. ZSS sometimes has to deal with hitboxes directly when she's read hard enough. Diddy does not even leave that as an option in the first place if he has good control over his recovery.

Diddy players get gimped all the time, same can't be said for ZSS. All of ZSS's recovery options are much harder to interrupt than for Diddy. This can't be stressed enough.

More importantly if you hit Diddy out of his up B ONCE he's dead without question. He can't up B again until it's too late. ZSS can get hit out of her recovery options several times and still make it back.

 

[Das Koopa]

Ned upsets Zinoto and Ally, in WFs against ZeRo

 

[A2ZOMG]

Ally and M2K in losers today. Nairo also getting upset yesterday. And Japan is full of nothing but random results lol.

I'm starting to wonder why Smash 4 seems to have so many upsets compared to all the other Smash games. Top players (excluding Zero perhaps) seem to get upset all the time. And I don't think you could argue Smash 4 has more competition as Melee for instance definitely has much more and yet the top players rarely get upset.

I can't help but wonder if Smash 4's skill ceiling is a little too low. It seems so many players are able to reach that top, top level of play. Not sure how I feel about it. Don't get me wrong, upsets are hype but when it happens so often as in this game...idk.

The reason why there's so many upsets in Smash 4 at a top level is because Smash 4 actually has the hardest neutral game of all the Smashes by a landslide.

If I were to rank the difficulty of neutral in Smash bros by series, it would look like this.

Smash 4 >>> Melee > 64 > Brawl

Neutral in any other Smash is cake compared to Smash 4. Also why a large part of the meta is disadvantage state, because neutral is so hard to remain consistent in, it's essential to be able to get out of bad situations on demand.

 

[C0rvus]

For the record, some characters can shut down Diddy's Monkey Flip recovery. Corrin threatens that horizontal space easily with fsmash and dragon lunge.

----

The game has a lot of upsets because a LOT of people play it, it's only a couple years old, it has more characters, more viable characters, etc. Things haven't even begun to settle.

You may think the skill ceiling is too low but then you play a top player and feel completely helpless. You've been playing since launch but you get bodybagged effortlessly by someone else. The gap is wider than you thought possible. Never doubt that it's high enough. Most of us will never even get close anyway.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Ally and M2K in losers today. Nairo also getting upset yesterday. And Japan is full of nothing but random results lol.

I'm starting to wonder why Smash 4 seems to have so many upsets compared to all the other Smash games. Top players (excluding Zero perhaps) seem to get upset all the time. And I don't think you could argue Smash 4 has more competition as Melee for instance definitely has much more and yet the top players rarely get upset.

I can't help but wonder if Smash 4's skill ceiling is a little too low. It seems so many players are able to reach that top, top level of play. Not sure how I feel about it. Don't get me wrong, upsets are hype but when it happens so often as in this game...idk.



Diddy players get gimped all the time, same can't be said for ZSS. All of ZSS's recovery options are much harder to interrupt than for Diddy. This can't be stressed enough.

More importantly if you hit Diddy out of his up B ONCE he's dead without question. He can't up B again until it's too late. ZSS can get hit out of her recovery options several times and still make it back.

Say it with me guys

TWO STOCK IS STUPID!!!!!!

 

[TurboLink]

Ally and M2K in losers today. Nairo also getting upset yesterday. And Japan is full of nothing but random results lol.

I'm starting to wonder why Smash 4 seems to have so many upsets compared to all the other Smash games. Top players (excluding Zero perhaps) seem to get upset all the time. And I don't think you could argue Smash 4 has more competition as Melee for instance definitely has much more and yet the top players rarely get upset.

I can't help but wonder if Smash 4's skill ceiling is a little too low. It seems so many players are able to reach that top, top level of play. Not sure how I feel about it. Don't get me wrong, upsets are hype but when it happens so often as in this game...idk.



Diddy players get gimped all the time, same can't be said for ZSS. All of ZSS's recovery options are much harder to interrupt than for Diddy. This can't be stressed enough.

More importantly if you hit Diddy out of his up B ONCE he's dead without question. He can't up B again until it's too late. ZSS can get hit out of her recovery options several times and still make it back.

Did it ever occur to you that maybe Smash 4 is more balanced than all the other games before it?

 

[JustSomeScrub]

For the record, some characters can shut down Diddy's Monkey Flip recovery. Corrin threatens that horizontal space easily with fsmash and dragon lunge.

----

The game has a lot of upsets because a LOT of people play it, it's only a couple years old, it has more characters, more viable characters, etc. Things haven't even begun to settle.

You may think the skill ceiling is too low but then you play a top player and feel completely helpless. You've been playing since launch but you get bodybagged effortlessly by someone else. The gap is wider than you thought possible. Never doubt that it's high enough. Most of us will never even get close anyway.

I repeat, Melee has much more competition and yet upsets are much more rare. You almost never hear of the best players not making top 8 or getting upset by players who are hardly known.

The more viable character argument doesn't work either. Because sometimes the players causing upsets are using top tier characters as well. Ally just lost to Cloud for instance. Lost to a Sonic a tournament before that (another top tier).

I don't know. If Smash 4's skill ceiling was high as you say, top 5 level players should not be losing to much lower ranked players this often.

 

[A2ZOMG]

For the record, some characters can shut down Diddy's Monkey Flip recovery. Corrin threatens that horizontal space easily with fsmash and dragon lunge.

----

The game has a lot of upsets because a LOT of people play it, it's only a couple years old, it has more characters, more viable characters, etc. Things haven't even begun to settle.

You may think the skill ceiling is too low but then you play a top player and feel completely helpless. You've been playing since launch but you get bodybagged effortlessly by someone else. The gap is wider than you thought possible. Never doubt that it's high enough. Most of us will never even get close anyway.

In the first place, Diddy does not have to recover level with the stage, and shouldn't in most situations.

Also, both Melee and Brawl have had a LOT of people playing the games. However top competition established itself way more consistently very quickly. Remember how long M2K dominated BOTH Melee and Brawl?

Also, let's look at M2K as a player. M2K has a poor neutral compared to most top players, but amazing autopilot punishes. In Brawl and Melee, neutral is not very complicated and he can get away with very broad reads and outplay people with perfect punishes to win.

In Smash 4, neutral is actually extremely difficult and he's rarely placed at the very top in the most stacked events. Punish reward in Smash 4 also happens to be significantly lower than that of Brawl and especially Melee.

Smash 4's wildly inconsistent results is directly the result of its balance, and sheer differences in meta focus from previous Smash games.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Ahhhhh...never mind

 

[bc1910]

Diddy has to be extremely high up (often needing to use his double jump) having just used Smash Monkey Flip for the popgun reverse to accomplish anything. Monkey Flip in disadvantage is vulnerable on startup and has no invincibility whatsoever. Compare this to Bouncing Fish which has 3-4f invincibility, covers a huge distance and has a huge hitbox on the axe kick, or Flip Jump which is essentially a second double jump airdodge that can spike you for screwing up. Sheik also has f3 Nair and better landing options overall, whilst both have stall-then-fall divekicks to use as Hail Marys. Diddy is very good at escaping juggle situations once he gets knocked high enough into the air, but with no combo breaker or easy-bake invincible burst option he can struggle before that point.

I doubt his recovery covers more raw distance than ZSS' considering her long-range tether. Probably can if you allow him to charge the rocketbarrels, but why would anyone let that happen. Monkey Flip loses to hitboxes as bad or worse than Flip Jump does. We don't see ZSS get gimped at top level and we rarely see Sheik get gimped, but it can happen to Diddy. His recovery is simply not as good, despite still being good/much better than people think.

He's on the weighty side for how small he is but not extremely heavy. He weighs the same Toon Link and less than Greninja, Ness and Lucas, all of whom are small.

Don't get me wrong, Diddy's disadvantage is in the upper portion of the cast. I just don't see it putting him in a different league when combined with his neutral, like Sheik's does.

 

[JustSomeScrub]

Say it with me guys

TWO STOCK IS STUPID!!!!!!

This could definitely be a part of it. It's a lot harder to be consistent with less stocks.

But 3 stock tournaments are a logistical nightmare. At least when there's 100s of entrants. Less viewer friendly as well.

 

[sedrf]

SF4 was balanced and for the most part had established contenders.
Maybe it might be the game is still young and not just smash 4 magically being more balcned

 

[A2ZOMG]

Diddy has to be extremely high up (often needing to use his double jump) having just used Smash Monkey Flip for the popgun reverse to accomplish anything. Monkey Flip in disadvantage is vulnerable on startup and has no invincibility whatsoever. Compare this to Bouncing Fish which has 3-4f invincibility, covers a huge distance and has a huge hitbox on the axe kick, or Flip Jump which is essentially a second double jump airdodge that can spike you for screwing up. Sheik also has f3 Nair and better landing options overall, whilst both have stall-then-fall divekicks to use as Hail Marys. Diddy is very good at escaping juggle situations once he gets knocked high enough into the air, but with no combo breaker or easy-bake invincible burst option he can struggle before that point.

I doubt his recovery covers more raw distance than ZSS' considering her long-range tether. Probably can if you allow him to charge the rocketbarrels, but why would anyone let that happen. Monkey Flip loses to hitboxes as bad or worse than Flip Jump does. We don't see ZSS get gimped at top level and we rarely see Sheik get gimped, but it can happen to Diddy. His recovery is simply not as good.

He's on the weighty side for how small he is but not extremely heavy. He weighs the same Toon Link and less than Greninja, Ness and Lucas, all of whom are small.

Don't get me wrong, Diddy's disadvantage is in the upper portion of the cast. I just don't see it putting him in a different league when combined with his neutral, like Sheik's does.

Why wouldn't Diddy get to charge Rocket Barrels for free? He can go basically over two stage lengths to recover successfully. Nobody is challenging that, not even Villager in most situations simply because of how unbelievably far away he can recover from with virtually full control over his trajectory no less.

 

[Trifroze]

Any ZSS that uses DownB to recover generally should be punished if your edgeguard tools aren't horrible, as there is plenty of time to react to the animation and hit the end portion of it. The tether is moderately more difficult to punish but can be snagged by lingering hitboxes.

Moderately?

MODER8LY????????

You need to stop playing against Zero Suits who always tether at the same spot and always instantly pull themselves to the ledge after using it. Even characters like Villager, Sheik or Pikachu can't really do **** about it, they're forced to hard read the timing(s) after all of ZSS' stalling options and risk getting flip kicked for attempting that any time flip jump is still available.

 

[LancerStaff]

For example smash has less combos and safer nuetrals than most, but if you added say a marval vs capcom character with 50 hit footdive combos into 0 to death confirms, but it had ganon lvl nuetral they would still be amazing. All in all though its all about risk vs reward ratios.

Think about it like this...

We have two characters. One can kill you in one hit of anything and is so durable he needs to lose neutral 100 times to lose, but he's ridiculously slow and every move has 30 frames of start up. You're dead if he gets in, but that's impossible unless he unplugs your controller. Another character has an attack that can hit anybody, anywhere, anytime, but dies in one hit and the attack does almost no damage. Always wins neutral but gets nearly nothing for it.

Even Dorf has a neutral over advantage the character. His advantage literally does not matter because he can't get in, even with a hundred gos at it. Neutral the character's terrible disadvantage and advantage don't mean anything because it's impossible to get in on him. Worst case scenario for neutral the character is that he does literally no damage but still ties because you cann't do anything to him either.

 

[Djent]

It's kind of funny that people complain about high variance (which suggests we should have more stocks/games) and tournament fatigue (which suggests we should have less). Such a catch-22.

Anyway, I am super impressed with Ned. Despite 's clear limitations, I still think he's 3rd best by process-of-elimination.

 

[JustSomeScrub]

Why wouldn't Diddy get to charge Rocket Barrels for free? He can go basically over two stage lengths to recover successfully. Nobody is challenging that, not even Villager in most situations simply because of how unbelievably far away he can recover from with virtually full control over his trajectory no less.

Diddy's Up B takes ages to charge and is very much interruptible. That's why.

This is why something like Marth or Mario's up B despite having technically far less max distance is MUCH harder to challenge.

Distance isn't everything.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Moderately?

MODER8LY????????

You need to stop playing against Zero Suits who always tether at the same spot and always instantly pull themselves to the ledge after using it. Even characters like Villager, Sheik or Pikachu can't really do **** about it, they're forced to hard read the timing(s) after all of ZSS' stalling options and risk getting flip kicked for attempting that any time flip jump is still available.

Villager can do a lot more with item shenanigans and Thunder is not exactly risky to attempt. Sheik probably struggles. ZSS doesn't get edgeguarded a lot, but she still has windows where it can happen.

Diddy's Up B takes ages to charge and is very much interruptible. That's why.

This is why something like Marth or Mario's up B despite having technically far less max distance is MUCH harder to challenge.

Distance isn't everything.

Diddy charges Up-B at the blastzone, you ain't challenging it, and if he has any idea how to control it accurately, he gets back unpunished.

Mario's Up-B should be challenged a lot more. Marth's however is legitimately overpowered for recovery.

 

[Jehtt]

Up B can still be challenged before it launches. Yes, it moves fast and has a plethora of angles it can travel, but charging it is still a commitment even if you go far away from the stage.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Up B can still be challenged before it launches. Yes, it moves fast and has a plethora of angles it can travel, but charging it is still a commitment even if you go far away from the stage.

Why call it a commitment when nobody is intercepting it from the blastzone? Diddy always has the option to reactively outmaneuver attempts to chase him once he launches. The one thing that should kill him at this point is a technical error.

Probably the only thing that he reasonably cannot avoid on reaction is certain item coverage...which is pretty rare.

 

[LancerStaff]

You need to stop playing against Zero Suits who always tether at the same spot and always instantly pull themselves to the ledge after using it. Even characters like Villager, Sheik or Pikachu can't really do **** about it, they're forced to hard read the timing(s) after all of ZSS' stalling options and risk getting flip kicked for attempting that any time flip jump is still available.

This sounds awful familiar...

 

[Ninety]

MODER8LY????????

Trifroze confirmed Homestuck trash

 

[Mario766]

The reason why there's so many upsets in Smash 4 at a top level is because Smash 4 actually has the hardest neutral game of all the Smashes by a landslide.

If I were to rank the difficulty of neutral in Smash bros by series, it would look like this.

Smash 4 >>> Melee > 64 > Brawl

Neutral in any other Smash is cake compared to Smash 4. Also why a large part of the meta is disadvantage state, because neutral is so hard to remain consistent in, it's essential to be able to get out of bad situations on demand.

If you even think for a second that neutral in Smash 4 is harder than Melee you should really look back at actual competitive Melee match-ups. The SHEER amount of options you have in Melee along with the ability to crouch to cancel KB and make attacks unsafe on hit makes neutral WAY more difficult than in Smash 4. Smash 4 neutral is a cakewalk in comparsion, and I'd say that Brawl neutral is harder because it's more of a mindgame, esp if you aren't playing herpdederp Meta Knight, unless you're in the ditto which has insane neutral play because both characters are stupid.

Not to mention you have to think harder in Melee or 64. Why? If you lose neutral once you could just lose a stock. You aren't gonna have that in Smash 4, and you never will.

 

[bc1910]

Diddy charges Up-B at the blastzone, you ain't challenging it, and if he has any idea how to control it accurately, he gets back unpunished.

Mario's Up-B should be challenged a lot more. Marth's however is legitimately overpowered for recovery.

To use your own argument, if you don't have horrible edgeguarding tools you can throw a projectile or hitbox in his flight path and prevent him from recovering.

Will it work 100% of the time? Probably not if they can maneuver correctly. But it'll work a lot more often than challenging Bouncing Fish, Vanish, tether or Flip Jump. A human player cannot magically react to every projectile or hitbox.

A genuine question then - unless I'm out of the loop, why are we not seeing top level Diddy players charge their Up Bs in the blastzone?

 

[FallofBrawl]

A2ZOMG Wondering how exactly is smash 4 harder in neutral than other games..is it because of the limited options (compared to other games) that need to be mixed up well to be consistent?

And I think 64 neutral is harder than melee lol

 

[A2ZOMG]

If you even think for a second that neutral in Smash 4 is harder than Melee you should really look back at actual competitive Melee match-ups. The SHEER amount of options you have in Melee along with the ability to crouch to cancel KB and make attacks unsafe on hit makes neutral WAY more difficult than in Smash 4. Smash 4 neutral is a cakewalk in comparsion, and I'd say that Brawl neutral is harder because it's more of a mindgame, esp if you aren't playing herpdederp Meta Knight, unless you're in the ditto which has insane neutral play because both characters are stupid.

Not to mention you have to think harder in Melee or 64. Why? If you lose neutral once you could just lose a stock. You aren't gonna have that in Smash 4, and you never will.

Losing a stock from a mistake in neutral means neutral is less important, not harder. M2K was the top player in both Melee and Brawl for a reason, and it's not because he's good at neutral

Melee neutral is very simple. You bum rush people with safe on block SHFFL aerials or you bait with dashdance JC grabs. Crouch canceling existing if anything makes neutral easier, as a slightly braindead response to people who autopilot bad approaches.

Brawl neutral is even simpler. SHFFAC B-air, or airdodge. That's literally neutral in Brawl. Hitboxes are so good in Brawl, and airdodge is so low commitment as a neutral option, anyone can learn it quickly.

Hitboxes in Smash 4 actually suck, so you have to learn way more ways to microspace, especially across different matchups because you can't autopilot extremely generous lingering hitboxes to cover space safely. Major reason why Sonic works in Smash 4, and largely doesn't in Brawl.

 

[Das Koopa]

Aba pulling out the Pac Attack for Zinoto's diddy

 

[JustSomeScrub]

If you even think for a second that neutral in Smash 4 is harder than Melee you should really look back at actual competitive Melee match-ups. The SHEER amount of options you have in Melee along with the ability to crouch to cancel KB and make attacks unsafe on hit makes neutral WAY more difficult than in Smash 4. Smash 4 neutral is a cakewalk in comparsion, and I'd say that Brawl neutral is harder because it's more of a mindgame, esp if you aren't playing herpdederp Meta Knight, unless you're in the ditto which has insane neutral play because both characters are stupid.

Not to mention you have to think harder in Melee or 64. Why? If you lose neutral once you could just lose a stock. You aren't gonna have that in Smash 4, and you never will.

This.

Smash 4 has nowhere near the hardest neutral to play lol.

The guy lists Smash 4 as the hardest neutral and Brawl as the easiest despite the games having much more similar neutrals than any other 2 Smash games. There's a reason most top Smash 4 players are former Brawl players.

I'm sorry but if you think Smash 4's neutral is hard but Brawl was the easiest, you are beyond biased and nothing you say about other Smash games can be taken seriously.

 

[Djent]

Aba pulling out the Pac Attack for Zinoto's diddy

Biggest surprise of this tourney yet IMO. Aba previously said something to the effect of "don't ask me to play Pac."

 

[A2ZOMG]

This.

Smash 4 has nowhere near the hardest neutral to play lol.

The guy lists Smash 4 as the hardest neutral and Brawl as the easiest despite the games having much more similar neutrals than any other 2 Smash games. There's a reason most top Smash 4 players are former Brawl players.

I'm sorry but if you think Smash 4's neutral is hard but Brawl was the easiest, you are beyond biased and nothing you say about other Smash games can be taken seriously.

Former Brawl players do well in Smash 4 due to somewhat similar engines and fundamentals carrying over. However Brawl's neutral is considerably different from Smash 4s. Brawl has incredibly ******** autocancels on aerials everywhere, and everyone who is not named Ganon or Falcon literally has a rising SH B-air that hits everyone in neutral.

Smash 4 has none of that, and also does not have an abusable lagless airdodge for mindlessly avoiding hitboxes.

 

[Mario766]

Losing a stock from a mistake in neutral means neutral is less important, not harder. M2K was the top player in both Melee and Brawl for a reason, and it's not because he's good at neutral

Melee neutral is very simple. You bum rush people with safe on block SHFFL aerials or you bait with dashdance JC grabs. Crouch canceling existing if anything makes neutral easier, as a slightly braindead response to people who autopilot bad approaches.

Brawl neutral is even simpler. SHFFAC B-air, or airdodge. That's literally neutral in Brawl. Hitboxes are so good in Brawl, and airdodge is so low commitment as a neutral option, anyone can learn it quickly.

Hitboxes in Smash 4 actually suck, so you have to learn way more ways to microspace, especially across different matchups because you can't autopilot extremely generous lingering hitboxes to cover space safely.

You're severely underestimating neutral game in general just like you overestimate Diddy's recovery.

Melee neutral - If you're spamming attacks to land with, what if the person CCs? What if the person WD's OoS into a DD JC Grab? What if they powershield? What if they do X amount of options because hello movement options. This makes neutral more complicated, and also more important, because if you get a bad read and get punished for being overly aggressive or passive, you could just straight lose a stock.

Brawl Neutral was not all about that, there was also mindgames, slight movement, heavy emphasis on spacing and frame traps.

Smash 4 neutral - I spaced an attack on shield and I either hit extremely low to land immediately or I AC'd. You have very little OoS because no one in this game has extremely good OoS because movement options are gone, your move. Pick an option OoS when I'm basically even in frames because hitting shield has very little counterplay due to spacing.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I think all Smash games have easy neutral.

Just the incentive to be good at neutral in this one is lower because most chars cant convert worth a damn.

Brawl neutral was easy imo, then again I played Marth. All the top tiers had broken neutral options that you could kind of just throw out. Neutral in Brawl led to way more neutral.

*shrug

 

[JustSomeScrub]

Losing a stock from a mistake in neutral means neutral is less important, not harder. M2K was the top player in both Melee and Brawl for a reason, and it's not because he's good at neutral

Melee neutral is very simple. You bum rush people with safe on block SHFFL aerials or you bait with dashdance JC grabs. Crouch canceling existing if anything makes neutral easier, as a slightly braindead response to people who autopilot bad approaches.

Brawl neutral is even simpler. SHFFAC B-air, or airdodge. That's literally neutral in Brawl. Hitboxes are so good in Brawl, and airdodge is so low commitment as a neutral option, anyone can learn it quickly.

Hitboxes in Smash 4 actually suck, so you have to learn way more ways to microspace, especially across different matchups because you can't autopilot extremely generous lingering hitboxes to cover space safely. Major reason why Sonic works in Smash 4, and largely doesn't in Brawl.

Wrong on all accounts.

Melee neutral has so many more options than those two you have to account for. And dash dancing properly in Melee is ridiculously hard.

And lol @ air dodges being most of neutral in Brawl. Yeah it's not like you can get grabbed on landing or anything. Or being punished when done high in the air.

Smash 4's neutral is waiting and doing nothing since offensive options suck like you said and spamming rolls since they are so braindead safe. See? I can make stupid generalizations too. In fact this is still much more accurate than what you have said about the other games.