Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Kofu]

As much as Umeki's free time allows. In all seriousness, this is extremely situational. How often can Peach pull out Mr. Saturns?

1/166 if my memory isn't faulty.

 

[Illuminose]

Even if we accept most of Pikachu's top tier matchups to be even (although it's pretty accepted that he has slight wins over ZSS and Rosa), he still only loses like 3-4 matchups or so which is less than most of the top characters. Pikachu's top tier matchup spread is literally about as good as Diddy if we look at it objectively. Now we can acknowledge the things that make Pikachu less consistent at times and will sometimes hold him back, but if you look at it purely from a matchup standpoint it's easy to see where ESAM's opinion of top 5 comes from. If we look at it from a more reasoned/balanced stance, I think people should be able to agree that Pikachu is top 15 and that he has a legitimate case for top 10. To me it's pretty hard to argue this unless you talk very abstractly about results to justify pushing him below other characters with significantly worse matchup spreads. When even Shaya is saying this, Pikachu might be less contentious than we think.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

I wouldn't say Pikachu's aerial mobility is bad, not great by any means but not bad

5th highest aerial acceleration tied with Ness and Falco combined with quick attack gives him some pretty damn good aerial weaving abilities. His top air speed is pretty bad though, just a cut under Charizards

He also does have 2 killing aerials in dair and nair which are both pretty safe despite killing late

 

[Shady Shaymin]

Maybe this thread needs to turn over a new leaf with the little rat and have a fresh start.

Hi, I'm . I apologize that some of my mains are a bit religious about me being a top tier, I understand that this is annoying. With that said, I can do some solid things in a competitive metagame that warrant serious intellectual discussion. On behalf of the incessant overrating and circular logic of my mains, I am sorry, and I hope we can look past old fights and start over. See y'all at EVO.

 

[Krysco]

When it comes to Pikachu talk, Esam is always brought up and while I get that he's regarded as the best Pika player, if his views are seen as wrong or too optimistic by so many people, why not get in touch with the other noteworthy Pika players? There was a list of them just a few posts or pages ago. Doesn't even have to be here. Getting their input from Twitter, Facebook, in person, Twitch etc and then reposting it here could give people a better understanding of what non-Esam Pika mains think of their own character. Heck, we just recently had 3 mu charts posted for Marth by 3 different mains of the character.

 

[Das Koopa]

The other """noteworthy""" Pikas probably include Nakat and Captain L but neither are anywhere near as good as ESAM in the same way that False, Mr. E, and Pugwest are all on a similar skill plane.

 

[Shaya]

I wouldn't say Pikachu's aerial mobility is bad, not great by any means but not bad

5th highest aerial acceleration tied with Ness and Falco combined with quick attack gives him some pretty damn good aerial weaving abilities. His top air speed is pretty bad though, just a cut under Charizards

He also does have 2 killing aerials in dair and nair which are both pretty safe despite killing late

It's bottom 10.
In contrast to the characters with which he most wants to compare himself to, it's bad. The lack of range on said aerials exemplifies the issue (contrast to Diddy, although he has 0 weaving capability)
And I don't really think weaving at around the speed of some of the slow walks is... damn good. At least, it isn't on Falco who you're comparing to (who I believe also has higher aerial mobility). G&W's weaving is something I'd say is damn good.

Neutral air is -13 at best (sour spot, late hit AC). The sweet spot is at minimal -19 and approaches -30 on AC.
Down air is -8 on auto cancel at best, but if hit towards the start of it it's -20.

So pretty safe is... not something that can be said about those moves, at least not neutral air.

New leaf would be great.

 

[Ffamran]

And I don't really think weaving at around the speed of some of the slowest walks is... damn good. At least, it isn't on Falco who you're comparing to (who I believe also has higher aerial mobility).

Falco is 0.0182 faster than Pikachu who is 0.0018 faster than Palutena, but Pally's air acceleration is 0.1 which is 0.01 faster than both Falco and Pikachu! Falco's air speed is 0.93 as of 1.0.8, up 0.037 from 0.893, which makes him 0.01 faster than Charizard whose air speed is 0.92 as of 1.1.5; up 0.05 from 0.87. Still slower than Fox's 0.96 air speed... I wish he was average in mobility at least on the ground, but nope, he's got a heavyweight's mobility, a shorty's aerial range, an average's ground range and power, and he's a lightweight fast faller aka the usual high to top tier's physics. All of this was supposed to be covered by his ability to zone, but we know where that went in Smash 4. *toilet flushing sound*

 

[Krysco]

The other """noteworthy""" Pikas probably include Nakat and Captain L but neither are anywhere near as good as ESAM in the same way that False, Mr. E, and Pugwest are all on a similar skill plane.

Would it not be better than what's currently happening? Constantly referring to Esam who many people find too optimistic and posts made largely by those who don't main Pika. Numbers are brought up but they only get conversation going so far.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

It's bottom 10.
In contrast to the characters with which he most wants to compare himself to, it's bad. The lack of range on said aerials exemplifies the issue (contrast to Diddy, although he has 0 weaving capability)
And I don't really think weaving at around the speed of some of the slow walks is... damn good. At least, it isn't on Falco who you're comparing to (who I believe also has higher aerial mobility). G&W's weaving is something I'd say is damn good.

Neutral air is -13 at best (sour spot, late hit AC). The sweet spot is at minimal -19 and approaches -30 on AC.
Down air is -8 on auto cancel at best, but if hit towards the start of it it's -20.

So pretty safe is... not something that can be said about those moves, at least not neutral air.

New leaf would be great.

I actually never knew that nair was that unsafe, I'm going off of personal experience from when I still played Pikachu which was about 2 weeks before 1.1.4. I'll just call it MU inexperience because literally nobody knew how to punish nair on shield. I would still call dair safe, the ability to fastfall it for a hurtbox shorter than Kirby's crouch and a hitbox surrounding it is nice.

Pikachu's aerial weaving would be poor if he didn't have quick attack and skull bash to aid him, the ability to just zip to platforms/the ground is great for escaping juggles and characters who can chase you down in the air

 

[ILOVESMASH]

Falco is 0.0182 faster than Pikachu who is 0.0018 faster than Palutena, but Pally's air acceleration is 0.1 which is 0.01 faster than both Falco and Pikachu! Falco's air speed is 0.93 as of 1.0.8, up 0.037 from 0.893, which makes him 0.01 faster than Charizard whose air speed is 0.92 as of 1.1.5; up 0.05 from 0.87. Still slower than Fox's 0.96 air speed... I wish he was average in mobility at least on the ground, but nope, he's got a heavyweight's mobility, a shorty's aerial range, an average's ground range and power, and he's a lightweight fast faller aka the usual high to top tier's physics. All of this was supposed to be covered by his ability to zone, but we know where that went in Smash 4. *toilet flushing sound*

At the very least, Falco has a godlike initial dash / Fox Trot to somewhat compensate for his poor mobility stats on the ground. Honestly, that initial dash is the only reason I don't think Falco's neutral and ability to approach are bad since he can quickly use his amazing normals out of a dash unlike other characters like Roy and Marth.

 

[arbustopachon]

isn't falcos initial dash 1 frame slower than the average?

 

[Kofu]

It's bottom 10.
In contrast to the characters with which he most wants to compare himself to, it's bad. The lack of range on said aerials exemplifies the issue (contrast to Diddy, although he has 0 weaving capability)
And I don't really think weaving at around the speed of some of the slow walks is... damn good. At least, it isn't on Falco who you're comparing to (who I believe also has higher aerial mobility). G&W's weaving is something I'd say is damn good.

Neutral air is -13 at best (sour spot, late hit AC). The sweet spot is at minimal -19 and approaches -30 on AC.
Down air is -8 on auto cancel at best, but if hit towards the start of it it's -20.

So pretty safe is... not something that can be said about those moves, at least not neutral air.

New leaf would be great.

This is rather unrelated to Pikachu but since you brought up Game & Watch...

His aerial weaving is indeed quite good. But as I play as him I see an interesting... aspect of his movement. His initial, basic movement options are quite short.

Let me explain. His jumps and his dash animation all go very little distance. Both options are quite non-commital, which is nice for baiting. However, they also make catching an evasive opponent tricky. Characters like Greninja and Sheik are substantially faster than him on the ground and their high jumps enables them to run away more than Game & Watch would like. He has ways around this (Fire, large and lingering disjoints) but makes camping him a decent strategy, especially if they have a projectile he can't absorb. It's a double-edged sword but something worth noting IMO.

 

[ARGHETH]

isn't falcos initial dash 1 frame slower than the average?

If Initial dash = dash length...yeah. It's 12, which is 31st, right behind the 11 frame group.

 

[Ffamran]

isn't falcos initial dash 1 frame slower than the average?

You're confusing dash with dash length: http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/DashLength. For the record, dash happens before run and for most characters -- Kirby and Mario's dash and runs are apparently the same --, their dash is faster than their run. In Falco's case, his dash is 1.9 -- same as in Brawl's -- while his run is 1.472. For dash speeds, check here: http://smashboards.com/threads/smash-4-running-walking-speed-rankings.371564/page-2#post-18647333.

 

[Ghostbone]

Pikachu's top tier matchup spread is literally about as good as Diddy if we look at it objectively.

"Matchup spread" and "objectivity" don't go in the same sentence.

Someone's perception of a matchup isn't objective, what you guys fail to understand is that there isn't some objective truth that Pika goes even/beats every other character, most people would disagree with the assertion that Pika's MU spread is anywhere near as good as Diddy's.

 

[Nobie]

Quick Attack isn't a perfect move because it extends Pikachu's hurtbox but it's easily one of the best recovery moves in the game. Like, how many characters wouldn't want to trade their Up Bs for Quick Attack?

What I'm about to say isn't a "why do tiers exist" thing, but holy crap making a tier list for a game with 58 characters where there aren't like one or two very clearly dominant or super awful characters is really, really tough. I'm surprised people don't give up after like 10 minutes of trying.

 

[TriTails]

Quick Attack isn't a perfect move because it extends Pikachu's hurtbox but it's easily one of the best recovery moves in the game. Like, how many characters wouldn't want to trade their Up Bs for Quick Attack?

Really depends. Some characters rely on their Up-B OoS rather a lot.

Mario uses it as a frame 3+1 punish option which is invincible on startup.
Luigi uses it as a frame 8+1 punish option that kills people at 60% or so.
Bowser uses it as a quick 'get off me' move which when compared to his other options, this one comes out really fast.

And the list goes on. I can't really imagine Samus' and Bayo's lifes without their Up-B OoS. One of Ryu's biggest strengths suddenly just disappear without TSRK. Roy and Charizard's SA is useful for tanking hits and said Up-Bs kill. Sonic and Mega needs it as a burst vertical movement option (Sonic's U-air, let's not forget that). Pac can't deal with shields very well without Trampoline. Doc punishes forward with this as his other options are either weak or slow to come out (Same with Marth/Lucina, I say). Sheik's strongest reliable KO option (Outside of BF near BZ) lies in her Up-B. Zelda's Elevator, etc.

But still, QA's burst mobility may prove useful. Falco with QA sounds pretty hillarious.

 

[Illuminose]

Ok, look at this way.

Let's just take an arbitrary (purposefully very out of order) top 10 of

Pikachu goes 4-1-4 (W L T)
Diddy goes 2-3-4 (W L T)

The matchups that are mainly seen as arguable here are that Pika/Diddy could be even, Mario could beat Diddy, Pika could beat either of Fox/Sonic, and Cloud/Diddy could potentially be even.

Either way, Pikachu's top tier matchup spread is still better regardless of whether you nitpick specific matchups. I'm not really talking about overall matchup spreads & I think Diddy is better than Pikachu, simply that Pikachu's matchup spread among top tiers is amazing, which should be pretty agreeable...

 

[sedrf]

Also KTAR begins
Smash and Spalsh singles begin later Today
streams:
https://www.twitch.tv/rushhoursmash
https://www.twitch.tv/unrivaledtournaments

 

[TDK]

Something notable is that ZeRo said that Sheik loses to DK in his interview after Mexico Saga. He also said that Greninja does well against Sheik.

 

[Rizen]

Cat made an MU chart for

 

[Das Koopa]

winner's side top 96 should look like this for Smash n' Splash

Spoiler

Bracket C1: MJG
Bracket C2: Triple R
Bracket C3: Moti
Bracket C4: Naoto
Bracket C5: Toronto Joe
Bracket C6: Z2G
Bracket C7: Abadango
Bracket C8: Dan
Bracket D1: Ally
Bracket D2: Tyroy ?
Bracket D3: Dakpo
Bracket D4: Mister Eric
Bracket D5: Sinnyboo242 ???
Bracket D6: Marshall
Bracket D7: EcneBanjo
Bracket D8: Hoenn
Bracket E1: Zinoto
Bracket E2: JJROCKETS
Bracket E3: Ned
Bracket E4: Big_Mak
Bracket E5: Boscotty
Bracket E6: Darkshad
Bracket E7: PowPow
Bracket E8: Sheen ???
Bracket F1: Nite
Bracket F2: Chrim Foish
Bracket F3: Shel
Bracket F4: Max Ketchum
Bracket F5: Demitus
Bracket F6: Anonymous Moniker
Bracket F7: Mew2King
Bracket F8: ZeRo

This is projected, upsets could happen but yeah

 

[bc1910]

Something notable is that ZeRo said that Sheik loses to DK in his interview after Mexico Saga. He also said that Greninja does well against Sheik.

Timestamp for anyone interested.

Essentially he lost one match as Sheik vs Greninja and blamed it on the MU.

There's some misinformation in there (Shadow Sneak is super unreliable at escaping Uair, and I'd still rather be Sheik in the camping war) but it is true that Sheik has to be very careful against Greninja now. Still, I can't see it as better than 55:45 Sheik's favour.

 

[zeldasmash]

Cat made an MU chart for

I think Marth/Lucina & Peach should be even. Marth & Lucina will have trouble trying to get in on Link due projectiles and zair ( Bombs in particular are extremely annoying). Marth would have an easier time against Link then Lucina due to having better range. I think Lucina would be slightly in Link's favor, but mostly even.

Peach hates the Master Sword, a lot. Uair, Dair, Fair & Utilt are moves that are terrifying for Peach as they can either juggle or kill her pretty early. Utilt in particular is very scary considering it can kill, it's fast & has pretty good range and how light and floaty Peach is. Peach also hates his projectiles, bombs can be used for mixups and kill setups and Boomerang is good in keeping her away.

I also don't think Ryu is that bad. Zair is a move Ryu has to watch out at all times since it's multihit and has a lot of range and once he's offstage he isn't coming back. Hadouken's are completely useless due to Hylian Shield and Fair and Zair's multihit beat Focus Attack. I could be completely wrong here, but i don't think Ryu is that bad a matchup for Link.

 

[BunbUn129]

The difference in range between Marth and Lucina is negligible. And if you're going to bring up that difference, you should also mention that Lucina's hurt box is slightly smaller, which makes her slightly harder to hit.

 

[Djent]

The matchups that are mainly seen as arguable here are

Most of them?

that Pika/Diddy could be even, Mario could beat Diddy, Pika could beat either of Fox/Sonic, and Cloud/Diddy could potentially be even.

Oh right lol.

I realize Shaya is just joking, but can we actually ban discussion of Pikachu? Just for like, a week...please?

 

[Ropalme1914]

I think Marth/Lucina & Peach should be even. Marth & Lucina will have trouble trying to get in on Link due projectiles and zair ( Bombs in particular are extremely annoying). Marth would have an easier time against Link then Lucina due to having better range. I think Lucina would be slightly in Link's favor, but mostly even.

Peach hates the Master Sword, a lot. Uair, Dair, Fair & Utilt are moves that are terrifying for Peach as they can either juggle or kill her pretty early. Utilt in particular is very scary considering it can kill, it's fast & has pretty good range and how light and floaty Peach is. Peach also hates his projectiles, bombs can be used for mixups and kill setups and Boomerang is good in keeping her away.

I also don't think Ryu is that bad. Zair is a move Ryu has to watch out at all times since it's multihit and has a lot of range and once he's offstage he isn't coming back. Hadouken's are completely useless due to Hylian Shield and Fair and Zair's multihit beat Focus Attack. I could be completely wrong here, but i don't think Ryu is that bad a matchup for Link.

I agree that this is not a very bad matchup, but the Hadouken thing is not completly true: Shakunetsu Hadouken still can hit Link even with the Hylian Shield.

 

[RonNewcomb]

Cat made an MU chart for

Totally agree on Rob. Surprised Sonic isn't beside him.

I think Marth/Lucina & Peach should be even. Marth & Lucina will have trouble trying to get in on Link due projectiles and zair ( Bombs in particular are extremely annoying). Marth would have an easier time against Link then Lucina due to having better range. I think Lucina would be slightly in Link's favor, but mostly even.

Peach hates the Master Sword, a lot. Uair, Dair, Fair & Utilt are moves that are terrifying for Peach as they can either juggle or kill her pretty early. Utilt in particular is very scary considering it can kill, it's fast & has pretty good range and how light and floaty Peach is. Peach also hates his projectiles, bombs can be used for mixups and kill setups and Boomerang is good in keeping her away.

I also don't think Ryu is that bad. Zair is a move Ryu has to watch out at all times since it's multihit and has a lot of range and once he's offstage he isn't coming back. Hadouken's are completely useless due to Hylian Shield and Fair and Zair's multihit beat Focus Attack. I could be completely wrong here, but i don't think Ryu is that bad a matchup for Link.

Link rarely gets the time to throw something at Marcina, but I might agree on bumping Lucina down. Falchion outranges Master sword at tipper range. Marth is doubly rewarded.

Agree Ryu isn't that bad, but not for any of those reasons. Hadoken is never used, zair only double hits at max range, etc. Rizen is there video of Cat vs some Ryu?

 

[Emblem Lord]

Ryu vs Link imo Ryu does win.

Link's flaws hold him back more so then Ryu being a better char in this match. I.E Link is not ever really safe other then with Zair. He has a sword, but almost all his grounded options are unsafe and grabs while rewarding are a HUGE commitment. Link is gonna get Ryu to rage FAST and then not kill him. Never a good thing vs Ryu.

That said I feel Ryus advantage isn't anything at all. 55/45. Rage is the main thing here, that's about it.

 

[Rizen]

Totally agree on Rob. Surprised Sonic isn't beside him.


Link rarely gets the time to throw something at Marcina, but I might agree on bumping Lucina down. Falchion outranges Master sword at tipper range. Marth is doubly rewarded.

Agree Ryu isn't that bad, but not for any of those reasons. Hadoken is never used, zair only double hits at max range, etc. Rizen is there video of Cat vs some Ryu?

IDK but all Cat's videos seem to be on this channel so look there.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC3oWDWY-XfgvMnU5Rfg8Ozg/playlists

 

[TDK]

winner's side top 96 should look like this for Smash n' Splash

Spoiler

Bracket C1: MJG
Bracket C2: Triple R
Bracket C3: Moti
Bracket C4: Naoto
Bracket C5: Toronto Joe
Bracket C6: Z2G
Bracket C7: Abadango
Bracket C8: Dan
Bracket D1: Ally
Bracket D2: Tyroy ?
Bracket D3: Dakpo
Bracket D4: Mister Eric
Bracket D5: Sinnyboo242 ???
Bracket D6: Marshall
Bracket D7: EcneBanjo
Bracket D8: Hoenn
Bracket E1: Zinoto
Bracket E2: JJROCKETS
Bracket E3: Ned
Bracket E4: Big_Mak
Bracket E5: Boscotty
Bracket E6: Darkshad
Bracket E7: PowPow
Bracket E8: Sheen ???
Bracket F1: Nite
Bracket F2: Chrim Foish
Bracket F3: Shel
Bracket F4: Max Ketchum
Bracket F5: Demitus
Bracket F6: Anonymous Moniker
Bracket F7: Mew2King
Bracket F8: ZeRo

This is projected, upsets could happen but yeah

Toronto Joe is playing Fox and lost to a Falco in pools.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Most of them?
Oh right lol.

I realize Shaya is just joking, but can we actually ban discussion of Pikachu? Just for like, a week...please?

I have another suggestion

How about we put harsher infractions on people who make posts non-beneficial to this thread and then give the power of this thread to multiple mods instead of just shaya? One person can't monitor multiple people at the same time efficiently.

 

[Das Koopa]

Toronto Joe is playing Fox and lost to a Falco in pools.

it's also a round robin

losing to falco though is lol

Edit: Well, apparently this Falco is good, Quilly 7-0'd in Round Robin.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I need to see vods.

Seriously.

 

[Das Koopa]

only one of his matches was streamed but it was pretty impressive, Quilly took advantage of the platforms and had a very limited but intelligent use of laser

https://www.twitch.tv/unrivaledtournaments

It'll be one of the more recent matches in the VOD if there's a VOD. Toronto Joe's Fox vs. Quilly's Falco.

 

[Yikarur]

Mii Brawler Cat:100 heh

 

[Illusion.]

Quilly is a top player in St. Louis if I'm not mistaken.

 

[williamsga555]

Iowa showdown on-stream between Sinnyboo and Liberation right now. Spy on our scene!

(also it's prolly Sheik vs. Greninja/Cloud/Mii Brawler maybe?)

 

[Das Koopa]

here's Quilly set vs. Joe

A duck Hunt by the name of Shevy is currently going up against Dakpo