Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Y2Kay]

If it isn't obvious already, the notion that Greninja is loved in Japan isn't true, and it hasn't been for a long time. Greninja has been considered almost worse than over here. People still say that though, acting like they understand a meta they don't.

there ya go @Radical Larry

 

[DblCrest]

When he says 'the order doesn't matter'? Does he mean the orders within each individual tier can be changed around?

If so I find Greninja and Ike's placement iffy and whether the order matters for the A+ tier . Also Why isn't ZSS up there as well?

Y2Kay
Initially there was a stigma towards Little Mac if I remember correctly.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

-Sheik does not have any exterior rules put into place because of some ridiculous tactics (ledge grab limit). Part of this is because of the new mechanics of the game itself, but still.
-Though this might change, Sheik has not been the impetus for removing any stages, not even Sheikville. In fact, some people still like to take her there. If any characters have been cause for the removal of once-legal stages, it's Rosalina, Meta Knight, ZSS, even to some extent DK due to low ceilings.
-Sheik can run away and camp with needles, but she can't glide through the air almost indefinitely OUT OF A KILL MOVE, switch sides, etc. etc. She's good at running away, but 1) there are characters better at it 2) the mechanics of the game limit how effective that really is
-I know all you care about is the upper portions of the tier list, but I think that's a mistake when trying to rate a top character's dominance. Compare Brawl MK vs. Brawl Ganondorf to Smash 4 Sheik vs. Smash 4 Ganondorf. Both are rough matchups but one is considered virtually unwinnable and the other is just quite bad.

@ first point: Brawl had no patches to fix such problems and there were other characters that could abuse the ledge. Had MK not been in the game we probably would've had to implement a ledge grab limit anyway.
@ second point: Which stages in Brawl have been banned specifically because of MK?
@ third point: almost all characters were a lot stronger in Brawl. If you put Brawl!Wario into smash 4 he'd probably be god tier. If you put S4!Sheik into Brawl she wouldn't be that good. It's one thing to compare two characters' standings within their respective metagame but I don't think it's valid to compare the two characters directly without looking at the circumstances.
@ fourth point: don't kid yourself, Sheik is clearly not beatable for Ganondorf. Neither is ZSS. Or Pikachu. Or Yoshi ... Ganon will *never* win those matchups. And that's not just to Ganondorf either. There are plenty of matchups that are in fact not realistically winnable for certain characters. Smash 4 isn't *that* balanced.

 

[bc1910]

What I'm curious about, though, is how close is Abadango's personal tier list to popular opinion? Every time he posts one we take a look at it and question the Japanese metagame, but it's not like ESAM's tier list is reflective of our metagame that well, as his opinion is quite different on a lot of characters than most people's. For all we know, a lot of top Japanese players may disagree very strongly with Abadango's placements of a lot of characters.

I think both are pretty bad.

It's just unavoidable with personal tier lists. People are always going to let personal bias sway their tier placements, no matter how much they profess otherwise. It just comes with the territory. ESAM putting Yoshi in top 10 seems ridiculous to us, but he's had reasonable success with the character. Pikachu 2nd looks equally ridiculous but, that's his main.

I for one have to exercise great restraint when I discuss Greninja's tier placement since I'd have people after me with pitchforks if I said, in my heart of hearts, where I really think he stands in terms of potential.

This is why it's so important to consider results, and not just potential. Even in personal tier lists. ESAM's placement of Pikachu shows that he's pretty much sweeping it under the rug that he and NAKAT (who uses several characters) are the only ones placing well with Pikachu. And even then, ESAM's placements aren't as strong as some other top players using characters like ZSS and Sonic. He's also ignoring Yoshi's general non-presence at tourneys.

 

[Y2Kay]

Nearly everyone in Brawl was ridiculous in some way, compared to characters in Smash 4. Looking back, that game was just a battle who was the craziest of them all. I doubt many characters actually prefer their Smash 4 over their Brawl.

 

[Nobie]

@ first point: Brawl had no patches to fix such problems and there were other characters that could abuse the ledge. Had MK not been in the game we probably would've had to implement a ledge grab limit anyway.
@ second point: Which stages in Brawl have been banned specifically because of MK?
@ third point: almost all characters were a lot stronger in Brawl. If you put Brawl!Wario into smash 4 he'd probably be god tier. If you put S4!Sheik into Brawl she wouldn't be that good. It's one thing to compare two characters' standings within their respective metagame but I don't think it's valid to compare the two characters directly without looking at the circumstances.
@ fourth point: don't kid yourself, Sheik is clearly not beatable for Ganondorf. Neither is ZSS. Or Pikachu. Or Yoshi ... Ganon will *never* win those matchups. And that's not just to Ganondorf either. There are plenty of matchups that are in fact not realistically winnable for certain characters. Smash 4 isn't *that* balanced.

http://www.ssbwiki.com/Tournament_legal_(SSBB)

Look up "legality dependent on Meta Knight legality." According to what's been said around these parts, one of the reasons Ice Climbers became number 2 is because the narrowing of the stage list due to MK boosted them indirectly.

Also I said Ganon Sheik is quite bad, which I would call 30:70 or worse. That's by definition not "unwinnable" even if it isn't easy. The introduction of rage, the loss of hitstun canceling, no ledge hogging, etc. changes so much that even VERY BAD match-ups have a way out, even if it's slim.

I don't want to argue what match-up ratios mean, but I feel like people conflate 30:70 with 10:90 as if there's no difference, but that's like saying 60:40 vs 80:20 are practically the same.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

It would definitely explain why Ike and Greninja have been dragged down so far from their rightful positions, and why Olimar is too high.

Hrm....

Shaya I understand you probably want to protect people's rights to privacy and all with their votes but: could you let us known if on average the Japanese votes had Ike and Greninja lower than where they are on the tier list currently? "On average" allows for deniability on their individual parts (we don't know which ones of them had them lower and which ones had them higher, if any), but it also allows for an explanation of Mid Tier's general oddity.

 

[FullMoon]

Each tier list he makes I find myself disagreeing more with Abadango, and not just because of Greninja either.

 

[Funen1]

Cloud and Ness have no wins against Sheik that I know of recently but quite a few losses.

I don't pretend that I know all the recent Sheik-Ness battles out there, especially internationally, but Ness does have a few wins at least here in the states. Shaky beat Cacogen's Sheik in top 32 at Genesis 3, and FOW beat both Wizzrobe and Vinnie to get into top 8 winner's side at PAX Arena (it says something when Vinnie decided to forgo his Sheik for Rosalina when he got the runback later). Obviously the matchup is still in Sheik's favor, and never mind that rating matchups with numbers can vary depending on people's own definitions, but I'd say it's still far from unwinnable, so your rating seems about right.

 

[Mr. Johan]

I doubt many characters actually prefer their Smash 4 over their Brawl.

Quite a few do, really. Mario, Sheik, Link, Ganondorf, Zamus, Sonic, especially Captain Falcon, Luigi, Ike, Ness, ROB, Yoshi, Charizard, Lucas, and Bowser. Mewtwo and Roy much prefer these incarnations rather than their Melee selves.

That's 17 out of the 37 veterans, a bit under 50% of the veteran lineup. And I'm not talking about simple physics adjustments between the two engines, each one of them had something substantial added to their gameplan. Falcon and Luigi got a godly dash grab to compensate for their lack of fortification in their approach options, Mario got air speed deserving of the Jumpman moniker, Link got some much needed power, Sonic got even faster, Ness saw his Fair, DA, and Nair converted to be great zoning options (and the lack of grab release infinite speaks for itself), Yoshi got an overhaul, and Bowser, Ike, ROB, and Lucas got a grab presence.

Even characters that changed comparatively little still appreciate what their Smash 4 counterparts got. Fox with a safer Side B, Samus with a killing Charge Shot, etc.

Lucas may miss Zap Jump, and Yoshi may miss Dragonic Reversing and invincible Usmash, but everyone here likes the changes they got.

 

[bc1910]

Hrm....

Shaya I understand you probably want to protect people's rights to privacy and all with their votes but: could you let us known if on average the Japanese votes had Ike and Greninja lower than where they are on the tier list currently? "On average" allows for deniability on their individual parts (we don't know which ones of them had them lower and which ones had them higher, if any), but it also allows for an explanation of Mid Tier's general oddity.

I know I'm not Shaya but on this subject there was a graph posted several pages back of the average standard deviation of the votes. I can't go hunting for it since I'm at work but the standard deviation of characters in the middle and low sections of the tier list was much higher than the deviations of those in the top, high or bottom parts (Sheik had 0 standard deviation as in, every voter put her as #1). Greninja was voted as high as ~15th and as low as ~35th, from what I recall. Ike was similar. The Japanese voters could well have been at the lower end of that spectrum.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I know I'm not Shaya but on this subject there was a graph posted several pages back of the average standard deviation of the votes. I can't go hunting for it since I'm at work but the standard deviation of characters in the middle and low sections of the tier list was much higher than the deviations of those in the top, high or bottom parts (Sheik had 0 standard deviation as in, every voter put her as #1). Greninja was voted as high as ~15th and as low as ~35th, from what I recall. Ike was similar. The Japanese voters could well have been at the lower end of that spectrum.

Wouldn't surprise me at all.

Really to me, it would be interesting to see the votes broken down by region. Like, mini tier lists: one for NA, one for Europe, one for Japan (Maybe Japan/Australia?). We already know different regions can have pretty different opinions of characters. Let us see how things pan out.

 

[G. Stache]

Pretty sure Luigi's Sheik MU is worse than 45:55. This is from viewing high level play and not from my own experience (which would indeed suggest it's around 45:55 or even). It's nowhere near hopeless but I think there's more evidence for it to be 40:60.

Mega Man seems worse than 45:55 as well. I agree he doesn't actually lose to the low tiers like Samus and Link though. They're more "annoying" than bad, a bit like most characters' MUs with Pac-Man until you learn to play around his gimmicks.

Luigi's MUs with the higher tiers just seem like a bit of an uphill struggle for the most part since his grab nerf.

I'm getting pretty good at this whole 'late replying' thing. I agree with what you've said for the most part. Though I do stand by Pac Man probably still being a bad MU...though admittedly I have very limited experience against Pac Man. I think this is what Luigi's MU spread kinda looks like (only including characters that were discussed about. Could edit in a few more if someone is interested). Just bear in mind while looking at my spread, that other Luigi mains have different opinions on what Luigi's MUs look like. We've seen this clearly between Luigi Player and me. This is just my condensed interpretation.


+1: , , , , , and
0: ,, , and
-1: , , ,, and (could see him being -2).

Not sure about: , or(apparently Pac's not as bad as I think. From what I've gathered, he just seems to prey upon MU inexperience). For the record, I think of MK as a probable bad MU, but they're probably close to even. I don't know for sure, I could use a word from their respective mains. And apparently Bayonetta struggles against Luigi. That's music to my ears, but I'm not gonna judge the MU until I actually see what Bayonetta can do outside a vacuum.

Other than that, Luigi seems to be a well designed character with a fairly positive spread. Obviously, he beats or goes even with mostly everyone below him (although, who's below him seems to fluctuate from player to player).

Edit: filling in a few more characters

 

[LancerStaff]

Is Cloud getting results in Japan or is everybody over there ranking him that high just because he's Cloud?

 

[bc1910]

I'm getting pretty good at this whole 'late replying' thing. I agree with what you've said for the most part. Though I do stand by Pac Man probably still being a bad MU...though admittedly I have very limited experience against Pac Man. I think this is what Luigi's MU spread kinda looks like (only including characters that were discussed about. Could edit in a few more if someone is interested). Just bear in mind while looking at my spread, that other Luigi mains have different opinions on what Luigi's MUs look like. We've seen this clearly between Luigi Player and me. This is just my condensed interpretation.


+1: , , , , , and
0: ,, and
-1: , , ,and (could see him being -2).

Not sure about: , ,, or(apparently Pac's not as bad as I think. From what I've gathered, he just seems to prey upon MU inexperience). For the record, I think of Ryu and MK as probable bad MUs, but they're probably close to even. I don't know for sure, I could use a word from their respective mains. And apparently Bayonetta struggles against Luigi. That's music to my ears, but I'm not gonna judge the MU until I actually see what Bayonetta can do outside a vacuum.

Other than that, Luigi seems to be a well designed character with a fairly positive spread. Obviously, he beats or goes even with mostly everyone below him (although, who's below him seems to fluctuate from player to player).

Pac's not a bad character but yeah, I'd say MU inexperience can make him seem better than he is.

Even with MU inexperience I think his problems getting the KO can shine through. I fought a Pac-Man last night who by all accounts outplayed me, bearing in mind I'm not very familiar with the MU (there was also lag involved which undoubtedly helps Pac-Man), but he was utilising Z-dropped keys into Hydrants, fruit zoning, the works. Yet, I was able to cheese a win just by living to 160 on each stock and killing with rage Uthrow and Usmash.

Greninja is definitely a -1 or -2 for Luigi I'd say. High level examples of the MU exist, such as aMSa vs Jmiller, and though these examples are old, Luigi's only been nerfed and Greninja buffed since then. Greninja can shut Luigi out similarly to Sheik thanks to shuriken zoning and he gets a lot of mileage out of his superior range and disjoints.

 

[wedl!!]

Luigi is 50:50 for Ryu imo. I'm at school RN so I'm just going to give tiny notes.

Essentially this is an uphill battle for Ryu until he gets rage. Focus Attack really saves him here. His reward at low % isn't as good as Luigi's because he's a fastfaller and Luigi's a floaty with a sex kick. Luigi just struggles really hard to kill and Ryu gets angry and dragon punches him in the nose. Luigi wins neutral most of the time because his fireballs are better than Ryu's, and any MU where Ryu approaches is generally not a great one. If Ryu gets the upper hand in neutral he usually wins because his CQC is way better (obviously). Both characters dump on each other offstage though.

No opinion of Luigi/Bayonetta yet.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Wouldn't surprise me at all.

Really to me, it would be interesting to see the votes broken down by region. Like, mini tier lists: one for NA, one for Europe, one for Japan (Maybe Japan/Australia?). We already know different regions can have pretty different opinions of characters. Let us see how things pan out.

Regional tier lists are a thing for more traditional fighters. I know in Japan, for example, they periodically put tier lists out of that nature for Guilty Gear, aggregated by province.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Jams.]

Is Cloud getting results in Japan or is everybody over there ranking him that high just because he's Cloud?

There were 3 Cloud players in the top 8 of Umebura this past Wednesday (Rain at 1st, Nariyasu at 4th, and Kamemushi at 7th). Komorikiri has also been getting extremely good results with Cloud (though we probably all knew this), but opted to go full Bayonetta at the most recent Sumabato.

 

[RonNewcomb]

If it isn't obvious already, the notion that Greninja is loved in Japan isn't true, and it hasn't been for a long time. Greninja has been considered almost worse than over here. People still say that though, acting like they understand a meta they don't.

Who is that character on the end of A tier, beside Dark Pit? My eyes can't seem to parse it.

 

[Y2Kay]

Who is that character on the end of A tier, beside Dark Pit? My eyes can't seem to parse it.

it's just pit. you're seeing it right

click the pic for a bigger one

 

[meleebrawler]

Luigi is 50:50 for Ryu imo. I'm at school RN so I'm just going to give tiny notes.

Essentially this is an uphill battle for Ryu until he gets rage. Focus Attack really saves him here. His reward at low % isn't as good as Luigi's because he's a fastfaller and Luigi's a floaty with a sex kick. Luigi just struggles really hard to kill and Ryu gets angry and dragon punches him in the nose. Luigi wins neutral most of the time because his fireballs are better than Ryu's, and any MU where Ryu approaches is generally not a great one. If Ryu gets the upper hand in neutral he usually wins because his CQC is way better (obviously). Both characters dump on each other offstage though.

No opinion of Luigi/Bayonetta yet.

Boy, if there was ever analogue to Ryu vs. Sagat I haven't heard of it. You can even interpret standing and short-hop fireballs as low and high Tiger Shots.

 

[Das Koopa]

Even with how different the Japanese meta is, Aba's tier list seems...off. I can get DK being so low outside of the U.S., for example, but didn't Japan have a WFT player that made Top 32 at Genesis? That seems more indicative of Borderline-tier or even Mid-Tier placement, not bottom 5.

Roy, Kirby, and Ike being so low is also confusing.

I actually agree with Yoshi's placement, though. Has Yoshi seen any remarkable or noteworthy results as of late? You can point to decent successes for a number of characters that would categorically place them somewhere in mid (Peach, Olimar, Lucario, Greninja, R.O.B, Toon Link, Mega Man, Pac-Man, etc.) but does Yoshi have anything recent under his belt?

 

[Y2Kay]

Even with how different the Japanese meta is, Aba's tier list seems...off. I can get DK being so low outside of the U.S., for example, but didn't Japan have a WFT player that made Top 32 at Genesis? That seems more indicative of Borderline-tier or even Mid-Tier placement, not bottom 5.

Roy, Kirby, and Ike being so low is also confusing.

I actually agree with Yoshi's placement, though. Has Yoshi seen any remarkable or noteworthy results as of late? You can point to decent successes for a number of characters that would categorically place them somewhere in mid (Peach, Olimar, Lucario, Greninja, R.O.B, Toon Link, Mega Man, Pac-Man, etc.) but does Yoshi have anything recent under his belt?

the Yoshis that came to G3 did alright for such a stacked tournament.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Nearly everyone in Brawl was ridiculous in some way, compared to characters in Smash 4. Looking back, that game was just a battle who was the craziest of them all. I doubt many characters actually prefer their Smash 4 over their Brawl.

I prefer brawl Yoshi over Smash 4 Yoshi tho.
Only thing that should've changed from brawl to Sm4sh for Yoshi is give him OoS options only. Keep our good grab game Bair and Utilt :<

As for Genesis, think like 5 or so good Yoshi's went and two of the best both got 49th place. Top 65 I guess.

 

[Das Koopa]

Raptor and The Wall got 49th, yeah

I mean Aba also got 49th even though he got 5th(?) at EVO but Yoshi's don't have a good track record at Regionals either as far as I know

 

[Yikarur]

Sinister Slush
Uptilt is so much better in Smash 4. Are you sure you didn't mean ftilt?

Brawl Yoshi is far inferior to Smash 4 Yoshi.
+ Jump OoS and Shield Drop Frames are the same for every character.
+ In Brawl you could get shield poked from below and in the first 5 frames of the shield because Yoshis curling moves his nose outside the shield bubble (made powershielding Falcos laser impossible for example)
+ Standing Upright = smaller hurtbox in front of us
+ Uptilt Hitbox is insane now
+ Dair has a landing hitbox and goes really far to the side
+ Standing Grab faster
+ Momentum while throwing eggs
+ Throwing eggs at a lower angle
+ Egg Lay time accumulates with damage
+ Fair Hitbox is like twice as far as in Brawl
+ Sky Rocket Double Jump which makes the super armor last on frame you are falling already and lets you get away and follow faster.
+ stronger super armor
+ No free fall for egg roll 8) (+ jumping)
+ Comboooos
+- New Upsmash, not sure which one would be better.
+- New Dash Attack, it was probably better prepatch, now the new one is most likely inferior but it has advantages..
+- DR removed (this is neutral because most people wasted too much time on a technic with minimal use, for years of practice..)
- Pivot Grab ...
- Bair rip
- Eggs were bigger
- DJC Item Throws and specials (Egg Lay) removed because of the new DJ
- Egg Lay Frame Data is worse
- Ftilt is laggy as hell
- Damage Output lower
- Last Hit Dair spiked
- Less hops per egg toss
- Fsmash had more active frames and Yoshis stance made the head-withdraw slightly more effective.
- switched weight with Ike (for the worse)
- Grab Release chain grabs and follow-ups

Except for bair, pivot grab and ftilt, I would never go back to Brawl Yoshi..
Yoshi is such a good character now thanks to the changes. Of course there are things that are worse but the improvements are obvious.
I see Yoshi as a solid Top15 and his position on the SWF tier list, is the exact position I would've put him in.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Sinister Slush
Uptilt is so much better in Smash 4. Are you sure you didn't mean ftilt?

Yeah ftilt, whoops
I also meant any Smash 4 changes that happened to Yoshi would be present too, like eggroll or standing upright for example.

 

[Nu~]

Pac's not a bad character but yeah, I'd say MU inexperience can make him seem better than he is.

Even with MU inexperience I think his problems getting the KO can shine through. I fought a Pac-Man last night who by all accounts outplayed me, bearing in mind I'm not very familiar with the MU (there was also lag involved which undoubtedly helps Pac-Man), but he was utilising Z-dropped keys into Hydrants, fruit zoning, the works. Yet, I was able to cheese a win just by living to 160 on each stock and killing with rage Uthrow and Usmash.

Couldn't have said it better myself. This is the problem that keeps pacman mains up at night, and why I dropped him.
It's heart breaking and rather stressful to know that you've put all your passion and creativity into a character that refuses to KO a soul and falls apart when the opponent knows the matchup.

 

[Jams.]

Couldn't have said it better myself. This is the problem that keeps pacman mains up at night, and why I dropped him.
It's heart breaking and rather stressful to know that you've put all your passion and creativity into a character that refuses to KO a soul and falls apart when the opponent knows the matchup.

This saddens me. You were always the Pac Man guy. :'(

 

[Mr. Johan]

Makes sense I guess. Pacman is a one-hitpoint-wonder that spends his games running away and clearing his objective one piece at a time. The only way he can get kills is by trapezeing his way through the stage until he snags what he needs to finally start killing blokes.

True to the franchise. Gotta love it.

 

[Nu~]

This saddens me. You were always the Pac Man guy. :'(

I'll admit that it was hard...considering he's one of my top favorite video game characters and all...
But the character was causing me stress that I couldn't handle anymore. I don't have the micromanagement skills to keep up with the counterplay of all of Pacman's options.

Makes sense I guess. Pacman is a one-hitpoint-wonder that spends his games running away and clearing his objective one piece at a time. The only way he can get kills is by trapezeing his way through the stage until he snags what he needs to finally start killing blokes.

True to the franchise. Gotta love it.

This^
But you could say I'm a fraud lol. The arcade game bored and still bores me. The pacman I grew up with was the Pac-Man World Series.

Now if he got equipped with some powers from there...he'd be a monster.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I'll admit that it was hard...considering he's one of my top favorite video game characters and all...
But the character was causing me stress that I couldn't handle anymore. I don't have the micromanagement skills to keep up with the counterplay of all of Pacman's options.



This^
But you could say I'm a fraud lol. The arcade game bored and still bores me. The pacman I grew up with was the Pac-Man World Series.

Now if he got equipped with some powers from there...he'd be a monster.

Dude Pac Man World was dope.

He would've had Spindash though LOL. Rev roll please nerf. I kind of want him to be a brawler type based on Pac Man World if he ever comes back but, I digress.

 

[williamsga555]

Brawl Dedede is a far better character, but I vastly prefer the playstyle that Smash 4 Dedede has. Went from being a pretty straightforward grappler with dumb properties to being...some weird trap-oriented tank.

Gordo Toss is one of the most interesting moves in the whole roster. Wouldn't trade them for anything.

...

Having Brawl's uptilt and ftilt would be magnificent though. And yeah, I know, old bair and all, but I like current bair fine enough that I'm not bothered.

 

[R3D3MON]

I'm getting pretty good at this whole 'late replying' thing. I agree with what you've said for the most part. Though I do stand by Pac Man probably still being a bad MU...though admittedly I have very limited experience against Pac Man. I think this is what Luigi's MU spread kinda looks like (only including characters that were discussed about. Could edit in a few more if someone is interested). Just bear in mind while looking at my spread, that other Luigi mains have different opinions on what Luigi's MUs look like. We've seen this clearly between Luigi Player and me. This is just my condensed interpretation.


+1: , , , , , and
0: ,, , and
-1: , , ,, and (could see him being -2).

Not sure about: , or(apparently Pac's not as bad as I think. From what I've gathered, he just seems to prey upon MU inexperience). For the record, I think of MK as a probable bad MU, but they're probably close to even. I don't know for sure, I could use a word from their respective mains. And apparently Bayonetta struggles against Luigi. That's music to my ears, but I'm not gonna judge the MU until I actually see what Bayonetta can do outside a vacuum.

Other than that, Luigi seems to be a well designed character with a fairly positive spread. Obviously, he beats or goes even with mostly everyone below him (although, who's below him seems to fluctuate from player to player).

Edit: filling in a few more characters

I mostly agree with this, but I think samus may be a bad matchup for luigi, especially considering what happened to Con Con, and also ESAM's record against Larry Lurr.

For Bayonetta, I think it really depends on whether or not the Luigi player has stage control. Specifically, I think Bayonetta basically craps on Luigi during the offstage game, where Luigi is especially vulnerable. But for CQC situations I think Luigi handily beats Bayo since his frame data is superior. Both have very good damage-racking game, but I think Bayo is better at getting the kill since she has kill setups and her up-air is very good for juggling, and Luigi can get juggled to death rather easily compared to other characters in the game. I guess once Bayonetta players optimize their offstage game, kill setups, and juggling, the matchup might become in favor of Bayonetta.

Good MU Spread nonetheless.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I think Pac-Man is better suited for doubles than singles.

 

[Nu~]

Dude Pac Man World was dope.

He would've had Spindash though LOL. Rev roll please nerf. I kind of want him to be a brawler type based on Pac Man World if he ever comes back but, I digress.

Same here dude...a man can dream

It's his butt-bounce that scares me though. If left untouched, imagine the horrors that would come from a fast, lagless Yoshi bomb that rebounds LOL

I think Pac-Man is better suited for doubles than singles.

Any team you put him on, he not only stock tanks like a champ, but disrupts the synergy of the opposing team.

He's the ultimate anti-doubles character imo

 

[C0rvus]

Anyone else been feeling down about the future of this game lately? I never considered myself much of a patch-prayer, but man is Bayonetta unreal. Her design makes me feel many layers of salty. I'm afraid of the game's future atm.

Also Nairo is going Bayo at KTAR. I think he might stick with her. She's like a ZSS sidegrade, possibly with a more stable MU spread.

 

[Das Koopa]

People are overly paranoid about Bayonetta

They're acting like Icies came back with chaingrabs and wobbling

 

[wedl!!]

This raises a question for me. What does a doubles tier list look like?

I know Cloud/Sheik/Diddy are at the top, but what else is there?

 

[MistressRemilia]

This raises a question for me. What does a doubles tier list look like?

I know Cloud/Sheik/Diddy are at the top, but what else is there?

The only thing i can safely tell you is that Jigglypuff gets out of Bottom in Doubles.
Idk how better she gets, but she's better. We've seen teams in Japan & US fit Jiggs & place high enough.