Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Vyrnx]

All of this talk of there not being a best x anymore because of whatever reason seems silly.

"There's no longer a clear best player,"

And the evidence pointing to this is Nairo and Ally being the only people to take a tournament from ZeRo when he has attended?

"There's no such thing as a best character,"

I guess this is more understandable, but the thing is, it isn't a tossup between ~7-10 characters like the people who say this like to say, it's a tossup between ~3 characters, and even then most people think it's Diddy, an opinion that has plenty of stuff backing it up.

It gets really annoying when every time people discuss the top echelon of characters (i.e. Diddy vs. Cloud) in this thread, someone says, "Getting tired of this top character stuff when there obviously is no best character, let's please talk about Little Mac," (waits for other people to start talking about Little Mac). People will talk about these characters when there is an interesting post or discussion started about them, not when someone tells the thread to change the conversation to them. In the meantime, top tiers have been and probably will remain the topic of discussion because they are the most relevant competitively.

 

[KamikazePotato]

If everyone moves up, does anyone move up?

On this note, I hope that the new tier list doesn't stick characters into D Tier or whatever. I think everyone has moved up relative to the top tiers, and it's misleading to create something like a Bottom Tier for this game. That's a tier for games where stuff like Brawl Ganondorf exists.

 

[ARISTOS]

Panda Global Rankings 20-11

http://panda.gg/articles/news/gaming/37/panda-global-rankings-20-11

20. 6WX
19. Leo
18. Vinnie
17. 9B
16. Shaky
15. Tweek
14. ESAM
13. Marss
12. Fow
11. Komorikiri

We're done with midtiers.
- Based on who's left, we've seen the last of
- 9B, unless he manages to do strongly with Mewtwo, will definitely fall behind; on the other hand, Leo was definitely underrated and will be set to rise
- There's more confidence in these placings; 9B had the highest X-Factor at +3.
- has not shown up at all!
- Might be wrong on this but Cloud in a quick scan has been the most popular secondary character

Times characters have showed up:

x5x5x5
x4x3x3
x2x2x2x2

 

[Tizio Random]

Might be wrong on this but Cloud in a quick scan has been the most popular secondary character

What a surprise! /s
But seriously, the most represented characters are "coincidentally" what I think the top 3 is as of now.

And just to know, which players remain to complete the top 10?

Spoiler

• ZeRo
• Nairo
• Dabuz
• Ally
• Larry Lurr
• Abadango
• Mr R
• VoiD
• Ranai
• ANTi *insert random button*

EDIT: edited for the sake of completion

 

[Yikarur]

Ranai and Anti are missing aren't they?

 

[Ninety]

Haven't heard from Tweek in a while. Has he been competing?

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

*snip*

The first comment that Anti says is something that I am interested in atm.

How are Cloud's MUs looking right now against the other top tier characters? Are there any other characters besides Sheik that have (slightly) advantageous matchups against him? Or are they all mostly even/in his favor?

Also, while we are on the topic of Mega Man, how does the vs MU look like?

 

[Chalice]

So far, all footage of high/top level play of Megaman vs Cloud shows Megaman bopping Cloud

Cloud can sit and charge Limit but Megaman has infinite projectiles. Pellets come out faster than Cloud can Nair through them and Cloud's spacing game is impractical because Megaman wants you at mid-range.

Basically, Megaman takes away Cloud's camping and spacing game and forces him to be rushdown.

 

[Megamang]

Also, Metal Blade OOS, Leaf Shield, and a huge standing grab (and pretty damn good roll boosted grab, we'll see this more at top level in the future IMO since it significantly improves grab range with the only downside being execution... perhaps a small boost to startup since the initial frames are dedicated to shielding/rolling, but many characters get a pretty damn significant boost from it) gives Megaman one of the best 'shield games'... and Cloud, after mid percentages, doesn't really gain much from throws. I mean, he gets limit charge... But Megaman can zone him well even with the mobility boost, racks a lot of damage in neutral, and doesn't really rushdown except the occasional dashgrab so while Cloud can charge limit pretty easily, he doesn't really gain much from it. Really, he needs it if anything, and has to deal with a pretty bad amount stretch of time where he gets zoned even harder while megaman doesn't have to respect LBB whenever he decides to pop limit. Honestly, with the ability for him to gimp megaman with much greater prowess with limit (nair gimps are much scarier when he can actually go deep, and doesn't die to getting a jump or two sniped with nair) unless he outright kills you with his limit charge, I'd say I fear a Cloud that simply holds onto the charge and uses the increase mobility.


Anyways, you end up with a supremely safe shield that can have things happen like... Cloud misspaces a grab, gets hit with 2 leaves into OoS MB toss into bair for lots of damage from a ledge sequence... while he isn't really threatening that kind of thing at all with his grab, he'll just toss you away and charge limit, but he should have limit regardless so even that is iffy.


Its both characters' MU to win at the ledge IME.

 

[Joey T.]

Now that we are talking about Mega Man and his possible rise to the upper tiers, what are exactly Mega Man's worst weaknesses that can hold him down, and what Match-Ups bring this weaknesses to light?

On a side note, when is the next time we'll see Kamemushi on a tournament? His Mega Man is really fun to watch.

 

[C0rvus]

How well does Mega Man do against Diddy? And while we're at it, let's consider how Villager and Olimar do against Diddy. I feel like they should do quite well, since they play anti-approach well and can projectile zone more efficiently than Diddy.

 

[Greward]

Now that we are talking about Mega Man and his possible rise to the upper tiers, what are exactly Mega Man's worst weaknesses that can hold him down, and what Match-Ups bring this weaknesses to light?

Bad and unsafe killing options are his main flaw. He does have a kill throw but it's usually too weak. Bair is good but pretty much it's all he has.
Basically if you can avoid Bair he can struggle a lot. Uptilt shenanigans are not reliable and his smashes are probably the worst in the game.

Worst matchups and actual roadblocks are Sheik, Mario, Mewtwo, Pikachu and Fox, imo in this order.

How well does Mega Man do against Diddy? And while we're at it, let's consider how Villager and Olimar do against Diddy. I feel like they should do quite well, since they play anti-approach well and can projectile zone more efficiently than Diddy.

Diddy - Mega Man is usually considered even. Imo I think it's slight advantage but kameme and scatt list did put it as even if I remember correctly.
Basically lemons really shut down banana game, but Diddy without banana is quite strong and it's enough to keep up with Rockman.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

In other news,

http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/633202-super-smash-bros-for-wii-u/73783089

We're finding out ways to control what character gets nerfed or buffed at will ( not me specifically, but those guys at gamefaqs). And it appears legitimate

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Kamemushi uses a very neat kill set-up that includes a z-dropped metal blade into footstool. He gets a remarkable amount of kills with it.

 

[Zelder]

In other news,

http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/633202-super-smash-bros-for-wii-u/73783089

We're finding out ways to control what character gets nerfed or buffed at will ( not me specifically, but those guys at gamefaqs). And it appears legitimate

He didn't test anything, and these are just a bunch of broad conclusions with very little support or evidence backing them. He just writes it out in a long and pompous way so it seems like he knows what he's talking about.

Edit: the more I re-read this the angrier I get, it's just so dumb. I'm mad that you gave me the opportunity to read this.

 

[Asdioh]

Edit: the more I re-read this the angrier I get, it's just so dumb.

I was already expecting this when I saw that it was a link to gamefaqs.

Kamemushi uses a very neat kill set-up that includes a z-dropped metal blade into footstool. He gets a remarkable amount of kills with it.

It looks consistent, like what Aba does with Mewtwo's nair footstool disable.

 

[C0rvus]

So, Mega Man is one of the strongest characters out of shield? The more I watch and read about this character the more I feel like he suits me. But his gameplan of "use lemons until you or your opponent gets bored and overcommits" doesn't exactly tickle my fancy. Is he the most competent zoner in the game? He seems very effective at keeping people out, whereas other similar characters opt to restrict space with bombs and boomerangs or play keepaway with Pikmin or slingshots. Mega Man just puts up a wall and challenges his opponent to overcome it.

 

[Greward]

The footstool z drop combo requires a land footstool, which is hard to make. He needs to powershield an aerial that falls just where Mega is, if it's spaced it won't work.

More setups is better and he uses it a lot but it's not reliable.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

He didn't test anything, and these are just a bunch of broad conclusions with very little support or evidence backing them. He just writes it out in a long and pompous way so it seems like he knows what he's talking about.

Edit: the more I re-read this the angrier I get, it's just so dumb. I'm mad that you gave me the opportunity to read this.

.......sorry....... :/ I thought it looked alright

 

[Megamang]

RAR MB to Bair is also a semi-reliable setup that gets better near the ledges and on small stages.

His edgeguarding is pretty good, but I guess that falls back on bair as well.


But yea, most games I lose are because my opponent gets walled out most of the game but has two stocks that last till uthrow or bthrow kills (bthrow won't kill forever if you don't approach a megaman in the corner or get pivot grabbed because you were hiding in shield in the corner) while he gets a randy rage fox bair at 50% and converts it to a ledge string.


Usmash is actually pretty damn good in clutch scenarios, it has really fast startup. Its big downside is that it will lose trades poorly, since it is a multihit you often trade a .5% hitbox (don't quote me on the damage, just an estimation) for their aerial.


On the other hand, hitting dair offstage is incredibly satisfying.

 

[ligersandtigons]

Top 10 for the pg ranking is definitely gonna be (in no order)

ZeRo
Nairo
Dabuz
Ranai
Ally
VoiD
ANTi
Larry Lurr
Mr. R

Need one more person

Kamemushi?

Edit: nvm, it's def abadango lol

 

[Zelder]

.......sorry....... :/ I thought it looked alright

No harm no foul my friend. Gamefaqs is just a trigger word for me; it reminds me of shamefully nerdy moments in my youth.

Content: Mario...is good in Smash 4. *nods sagely*

 

[Nidtendofreak]

In other news,

http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/633202-super-smash-bros-for-wii-u/73783089

We're finding out ways to control what character gets nerfed or buffed at will ( not me specifically, but those guys at gamefaqs). And it appears legitimate

Take it from a guy who has been on GameFAQs well over 10 years

Don't go to any of the Wii U boards. They are all trash. Every single one of them. No exceptions. The Wii Console and SSB4 boards are the two worst ones. You'll get nothing of value there.

And I thought the SSBB Gamefaqs boards were bad back in the day... the only thing they have worse than the SSB4 ones were the account suicides

 

[Shady Shaymin]

Something I've been thinking about: besides giving pros more options for picking a character, having solid character balance is actually really good for the growth of the scene competitively. I can't imagine how many people have turned the other cheek to competitive smash because their favorite character was garbage. It also just makes smash an objectively better spectator sport because matches tend to be less similar when more characters are used.

I know circle j4rking is cliche here, but I think it's pretty crazy how far this game has come. It's nice to sometimes just take a second and enjoy how good of a spot we're in right now as a meta, and I can only see things getting better.

 

[blackghost]

Panda Global Rankings 20-11


- Might be wrong on this but Cloud in a quick scan has been the most popular secondary character

Times characters have showed up:

x5x5x5
x4x3x3
x2x2x2x2

yeah i've seen cloud used at least in doubles by a lot of players that are on the list and ones that haven't been ranked yet. not sure how we count those. double only?
last interesting point form here on in ths list diddy and shiek are ging to get a lot more players its clear at the top players are using what they think is the best character or at least a very compeititve character.

 

[LancerStaff]

He didn't test anything, and these are just a bunch of broad conclusions with very little support or evidence backing them. He just writes it out in a long and pompous way so it seems like he knows what he's talking about.

Edit: the more I re-read this the angrier I get, it's just so dumb. I'm mad that you gave me the opportunity to read this.

He's not entirely wrong. Bayo got the most vitriol out of any character at all levels of play and was subsequently gutted. Everybody thought Mewtwo sucked (besides higher level players in Japan IIRC) until he crept up into the top 10, and even then most people still think he's bad. Roy's kind of the opposite where he has very obvious problems to a good player but a bad one thinks he's OP. People in Japan generally think Ike sucks at all levels even when the opinion of him is better elsewhere. Even when Little Mac had results to the contrary he still got nerfed, though I'm more inclined to think there were other reasons for his nerfs. Most of the biggest changes had people complaining.

Though I don't think we can make a difference. There's just too many people losing to Roy and DDD online and voicing their own opinions for a smarter group to make more noise then them, and I imagine they're looking at for Glory results since day one and not just recently. Maybe we could get Mewtwo nerfed after his recent buffs, but for characters that have been largely untouched we're just a drop in the bucket. Also I'm sure you would have to lose convincingly online since you can get banned for SDing repeatedly.

 

[Jalil]

The footstool z drop combo requires a land footstool, which is hard to make. He needs to powershield an aerial that falls just where Mega is, if it's spaced it won't work.

More setups is better and he uses it a lot but it's not reliable.

Mm can start the footstool combo during the landing lag of any aerial, endlag of a grab or shield break. There's other moves where you can use a normal grounded footstool to interrupt the lag of (forces them to go through the head jump-off animation) but they're character specific.
It's an infinite and can work at any percent, the timing just changes a lil. Tho the chances of you gettin the opportunity to do it are slim.

 

[Megamang]

During the landing lag of any really, really poorly spaced aerial. That is what he was saying.


Megaman's uair is not discussed often, but it is an insanely good juggle tool. Its one of the only uairs that you can jump into a Cloud dair and expect to either beat it cleanly, or get a trade and still come out on top.


Also... DICIT forwards is one of the most annoying things to learn for any character in any smash game. I can multishine kinda cleanly, get shine grabs, pillar... moonwalk... basically any tech skill in any smash game I have tried I can eventually get, but friggin DICIT forwards is crazily hard to be consistent with. Not sure why.


Who else has huge DICIT? They might have a better-than-imagined MU with megaman, since item setups aren't really fully utilized yet but are a big open '?' as far as optimization goes.


Leaf shield is also often underrated, though it has its fair share of risks. Still, if you learn the timing of the shield disappearing you can actually have some really deadly frame-trap-type situations, such as hitting their shield with leaves and utilting when they try and counterract the usual grab, since leaf grabs are really painful (MM has good throws, decent throw combos, and a slow and powerful pummel. 23% from a full leaf grab, one pummel and a bthrow! Thats diddy level, and the leaves also help you get the grab pretty significantly).


Nair is also a really slick edgeguarding tool, since the pellet and hitbox combo can trap airdodges pretty brutally and the nair hit sends you at a pretty horizontal angle. If you have bad air accel, getting hit with a pellet alone can be a death sentence.


Also, Leaf Shield on the ledge is low key very powerful. You can have a hitbox circling you while you hang, which can lead to footstools, zdrop shenanigans.... Megaman players have recently been doing ledge jump z drop stuff, which is cool and easy to be frame perfect with since Zdrop is the only thing that can be buffered from a ledge jump!


I know this word gets thrown around a lot, but Megaman is somewhat an Anti-Meta character. He has all kinds of redeeming top tier MUs, namely Sonic, Diddy, and Ryu.


Kamemushi at EVO is gonna be so hype ya'll. I wanna see Kame v Lurr, since that MU is a big question mark for me right now.


Being small and heavy is a pretty rare (maybe only MM and Bowjow?) characteristic that is awesome. Part of the reason I think MM did well vs 1.1.5 Bayo is that the uair string crap didn't kill off the ceiling when it felt like other stuff would by a non-insignificant amount of %.

Another random tidbit others might be interested in... I think MM is the only one who can B-reverse with the A button, via leaf shield throw!

Also, if you have a leaf shield and a metal blade up, you can choose to either throw the leaf shield, or the metal blade, based on pressing A for MB and B for LS. Pretty cool character yo.

 

[Mario766]

I belive the only characters with really long DICIT is Ike and MM.

I could be mistaken.

 

[SubconsciousRose]

I belive the only characters with really long DICIT is Ike and MM.

I could be mistaken.

Various/specific naming makes things more confusing to be sure of but assuming Glide Toss is also DITCIT or some variation of it, Corrin has quite a lengthy one as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ra2fFZY9GbE

 

[Mario766]

Glide Toss was nerfed from Brawl.

Ike slid like half of FD+ back then, now he slides like half that.

 

[Jams.]

Glide tossing in this game generally refers to jump canceled item tosses which preserve some of your momentum. This is different from Brawl glide tossing which cancels your roll with an item toss, which is still in this game but heavily nerfed. However, JC tossing in this game is still commonly referred to as glide tossing because they have similar functionality in practice and confusing terminology is gr8.

DITCIT is dash item toss cancelled item tossing, which is fairly self-explanatory. This thread is a good reference for who benefits from the technique, though it doesn't include Cloud, Corrin, or Bayonetta.

 

[C0rvus]

So what do people think of Toon Link now that his 15 minutes of fame have long since passed? He and Lucario both had some serious wind beneath their sails and opinions of them rose. Where do you guys see them at? Upper mid with half of the cast? Does Toon Link have the chops to be in lower high tier? Probably not, but he does have some choice good matchups including an even one with Diddy and Sheik, and a positive one with Bayonetta.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

So what do people think of Toon Link now that his 15 minutes of fame have long since passed? He and Lucario both had some serious wind beneath their sails and opinions of them rose. Where do you guys see them at? Upper mid with half of the cast? Does Toon Link have the chops to be in lower high tier? Probably not, but he does have some choice good matchups including an even one with Diddy and Sheik, and a positive one with Bayonetta.

Toon Link is pretty good. His keepaway neutral may be worse than megaman, but it's still very good, and unlike megaman, he has deadly kill setups with the bomb.

EDIT: This post was underdeveloped. Tink can zone well but his normals and CQG in general are very underwhelming. For a swordie, his range is pathetic, and his aerials are somewhat laggy. Ultimately, they get the job done in terms of racking damage after bomb and throw confirms, but are generally useless for spacing and approaching. I think Tink has the potential to be a high mid tier and possibly even a low mid tier because he does relatively well vs Diddy, ZSS and Ryu. His place in the metagame is probably somewhere around megaman. He's a zoner with good walling capabilities, and is nice alternative to Megaman, who struggles closing stocks in comparison. Hyuga is good, but he need more rep tho.

 

[Krysco]

So glad someone finally posted a link and described what DICIT is. I've seen the term thrown around a lot and I gathered from the CIT that it was a cancelled item toss since I knew about the jump cancelled version but had no idea what the DI bit was. First thought went to...well...directional influence.

Also, I don't see the issue with the whole 'who's the best character?' discussion. Yeah, sure, the game is very well balanced, moreso than the previous Smash games but it has been said that the tier list will be updated in the summer and I doubt when the time comes, they're just gonna put 3-10 characters all as #1. That's still a ways away from now and there's stuff like EVO and any other tournaments to look forward to but when you consider that all non-Bayo 1.1.5 results still reflect the 1.1.6 meta, is it not a good thing to get an idea for who can at least compete for first place and discuss why they might be first?

What even matters most for being number 1? Having the most advantageous matchups? Having the least disadvantageous matchups? Ideally both as the previous top tiers have shown but its been discussed time and again that every character in this game has at least 1 bad mu. I would imagine having fewer bad mus is more important. If say Cloud had some advantageous mus, 1 or 2 bad and a bunch of evens, and Diddy had a lot more positive mus, more negative ones and fewer even ones, would Diddy not be at a higher risk of losing since there's more mus that are deemed unfavourable for him? And that's what matters most in a tier list, your likeliness of winning a tournament. That's just a hypothetical scenario by the way. I don't know the generally agreed upon matchup spread for Diddy or Cloud other than like Luigi supposedly doing well against the former and I think Sheik for the latter.

 

[L9999]

This game has too many characters, fashions will come and go. On top of my head:
was hyped a lot and his hype is buried along dinosaur bones right now.
We pissed on him, Tearbear made a good run, "Cap. doesn't suck" then did nothing at all again.
they came, everyone got hyped, then they faded back to obscurity.
Gets pissed on constantly until FOW gets top 4/8 at something, then everyone gets back to piss on him.
When was the last time Pit was relevant?
Hype of the week/month.
Overhyped.
Hype is dead.
Hype is mostly dead.
ignored top tier!
He is in the game!!!
No one cares but she is there....
Where art U?!

 

[Mario766]

Ike hype is mostly dead?

After a super solid 9th place?

Oh wait it was dead since forever ago.


Carry on.

 

[L9999]

Ike hype is mostly dead?

After a super solid 9th place?

Oh wait it was dead since forever ago.


Carry on.

Don't have the best memory. I remembered san. But Ike faded away for a while. I know Nairo still wins stuff with ZSS but she is barely mentioned, everyone is too busy with Sheik, Cloud and Diddy.

 

[Mario766]

With one Ike quitting Ike

2 having either school or a full time job.

and one Ike not having the best results with a trip to SoCal (Ryo did pretty well at a local right after Fresh saga though, beating K9)

That'll happen. Rango will be at Momocon which has some pretty good people going, maybe he'll make a run to make up for what happened last week when he dipped pretty early to Nick Riddle.

 

[my_T]

I think Tink and Lucario fall in that 11-20 range. They haven't really shown up as of late but thats because they don't have a lot of rep at top level. Tink has Hyuga and Lucario has Motsunabe. They're rep and results are comparable to the likes of ness, villager, or pika in that they don't have much rep but when those one or two players comes out they almost always place well

By design I don't see how lucario could be any worse than top 20. If the opponent doesn't have a consistent early kill confirm like ryu then he always has a chance to win. DK and Bowser are a threat to him but if he makes it past the Upthrow>Uair window things can get really bad for them. Mewtwo is also a threat but mewtwos weight is a huge weakness in this match-up as he can die dumb early even for rage aura standards

As for Tink, Shady Shaymin pretty much summed it up. Although I want to put emphasis on the fact that he has really good kill options kill options compared to other zoners; bomb confirms and one of the strongest kill grabs in the game (although unsafe). He doesn't have to fish quite as hard as other zoners when it's time to kill