Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[~ Gheb ~]

I think Sheik's advantage over Cloud is bigger than most people think.

 

[hypersonicJD]

You know? Right now i'm pretty sure of this:

+ Are the best character options right now for optimal MU coverage.

Sonic seems to be like 55:45 vs Rosa now. But just to make sure, you pick Cloud and destroy Rosa. Sonic has a losing MU vs Ike, pick Cloud and deal with him but with more effort (since the MU is even). Having trobue with Diddy? Cloud is the answer.

Your Cloud can't defeat Mario? Go Sonic and defeat him (athlough the MU is even too, so you will have to work for it).

The only MU that I could see MAYBE being a bit of trouble with both of these chars is Fox. But quite honestly I would say Sonic and Cloud as main characters is almost the perfect combination.

What do you guys think that is the best character combination?

 

[Spinosaurus]

Mario always seemed to me like the "Ryu" of this game (lol).

Solid all around with reasons to keep playing him after you've mastered the basics.

I can sorta see where you're coming from but there's actually more to it. Ryu in SFV is actually incredible, but that's mostly because his damage output is absurd in addition to having a solid answer for every situation, making him a really scary character that thrives in SFV's environment. If he was faster he'd unarguably be the best. Mario's strengths lies in his mobility and frame data. I don't know if they're all arounders anymore, but you'd still be right about them being similar in a sense right now.

 

[TriTails]

If people mean 'honest' as 'doesn't have stupid BS like the ones that that kill at 0% or keep people out across the stage (Dumb stuffs), then Mario is one of the most convincing characters to say. Like, where the heck is this character's dishonesty lie?

His only tool that can even be legitimately argued as 'dumb' is his U-smash. That thing has a massive blindspot on front of him and has to be reversed to use optimally (I imagine this will be hard on C-stick aerials) and it doesn't even kill that early. The rest of his stuffs are very fair.

Character as a whole, he sucks at trading. He has a mediocre recovery and subpar edgeguarding capabilities. His damage output isn't as tall as you would expect from a character that hits you ten thousand times in a combo and his usual range and KOing problems tend to keep him from dominating the match (Yo, you haven't killed that 150% Bowser yet? You're ****ed).

But his strength lies in his excellence in CQC and footsies. His frame data can be suffocating at times. Comboing him is hard due to N-air and D-air along with airspeed. His safety is top-notch, too.

But his most meaningful strength is perhaps his versatility. I can't tell you how good this character is at changing tactics. He suits a lot of playsytles. This keeps him consistent and unpredictable. He doesn't really play his MUs as differently as, like, Luigi (I swear fighting a Falcon and then fighting a Link/Samus/etc is a real adaptation test) and none of the said MUs touch the caliber of 7:3. Mostly just evens and 6:4s. Solid fundamentals really do go a long way with this character, and that's what appealing about him. He's a reliable soldier that relies on your tactics to do well, but his range of comprehension is massive and can be used in almost any situation, simply because he's got EVERYTHING you need to success. You just need to know how to use them, else the soldier falls apart.

Mario's design is well-made. He doesn't rely on stupid stuffs to win. He relies on that one person who holds the controller to get himself to the top of rankings, and methinks that's the ideal design of fighting games. Not the character, but the PLAYER who wins the game.

 

[Djent]

I think is quite relevant, and possibly still in the 10-15 range of the cast even with the 1.1.5 nerfs.

As usual, everything comes down to his matchup spread. Most people agree that he still bodies Rosa, but evidence is starting to accrue that he has the advantage over ZSS as well. Leo > Nairo comes on the heels of Kappamaki > Choco (at Umebura 23). This second result is especially surprising. While Choco has been struggling to keep up with top-level players as of late, Kappamaki was essentially unknown before this win. So top player > top player and mid-level player > high-level player. I do hope the set ends up on YouTube so that we can analyze it.

In addition to the above strengths, MK likely still does well against Pika and Villager. OTOH, Diddy, Fox, and Mario are clear disadvantages if they weren't already, and I have a tough time imagining Ryu is easy either. MK probably loses 4-5 important matchups, but also does well in a comparable number of them. He is undeniably worse off but a lot of great characters have similar matchup spread weaknesses. I forecast that we'll continue to see a lot of him even if his mains need secondaries. And really, unless you main one of a half-dozen elites, that's to be expected anyway.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

Honestly any fast, close-range rushdown fighter + cloud is probably perfect. The archetypes complement each other well.

&works
&works
&works (fox McCloud...hahaha)
&works
Hell, even &works.

 

[Pazx]

Diddy Kong MUs?

is "hard", for whatever that's worth. It's not a common MU at top level, but KEN beat Nietono last time they played, and SGK just beat C3PO who should have MU experience from Seagull at GOML. I think it's highly likely that this MU is at least a slight disadvantage.

isn't quite as bad as some would make it seem but it's definitely not in our favour, most relevant Diddies (including Zinoto/JJROCKETS/dyr/MVD) think we outright lose and well... if you haven't watched GOML yet, you should, I guess.

Anti is the only Diddy player who thinks we win this MU but his opinion is backed up by Rayquaza and Dabuz (both notorious for you know what, sorry) which might mean something. Usually regarded as Diddy's worst MU by Diddy players, Rosa mains only think it's difficult for them when they forget that Diddy actually has a disadvantage state in this MU. IMO people underrate Rosa in general a little bit because she has very little top level representation and that may extend to this particular matchup.

apparently the harder of the Mario Bros to fight? Can edgeguard unreasonably well with cyclone (as well as aerials), the combination of jab + grab means ground game is scary and Diddy is forced to play kind of lame but fireballs can get in the way of that. Banana -> Shoryuken is rough. ~1 month ago Zinoto cited this as one of Diddy's legitimately hard MUs, along with Rosa and Cloud.

evenish. Dtilt and banana being godlike at kill percent is what stops this MU being strongly in Mario's favour.

also evenish, both sides tend to think it's difficult and I don't think high level results are particularly conclusive (Zero vs Larry and Zinoto vs Megafox is about all we have), both characters sort of destroy each other in this matchup but then are missing certain pieces of the puzzle (eg. being a poor edgeguarder against one of the worst recoveries in the game). Fox's speed + fall speed + reflector mean Diddy has to play differently in this MU, working with low percent grabs and unsafe aerials until regular dtilt stuff starts working properly.

Diddy doesn't like strong mid-range zoning characters, and Megaman is probably the best against him. I'm not willing to say we outright lose, but MM has a lot of good tools for dealing with Diddy who is forced to over rely on forward air and MFK, both of which are highly punishable. Kamemushi (?) has beat Nietono recently as well.

other MUs Diddy mains tend to dislike more than other top tier characters, Hyuga and Shuton also have recent wins over notable Diddy players. Villager can be particularly rough if they hold onto the banana. Overall I feel like Diddy's MUs against the five aforementioned zoning characters are all somewhere between slight disadvantage and slight advantage but require a notably different playstyle to the one we're used to seeing, as these characters deal well with Diddy trying to play a patient mid range banana game.

this looks even, Mr R thinks so as well. Not much to say atm, just keep in mind that ZeRo was already beating all the top Sheiks with Diddy before Sheik got nerfed, so we should be looking to use sets like Zinoto vs Void as evidence.

once ESAM is back in form people will tell you we lose this MU, but that smells fishy to me...

Before I started typing this post I was relatively convinced Diddy was top 3 but now I'm not so sure, he's definitely good but I don't see Cloud (?), Sheik (??? ???), Sonic (? ? ???) or even Rosa (???) having quite as many questionable matchups as Diddy. His MU spread honestly might be more more similar to that of Fox, Mario and (sigh) ZSS/Ryu.

With all of that said, Diddy is probably top 3 or 4 in a meta where people forget how to edgeguard, so on behalf of Diddy players everywhere: thank you for making our (tournament) lives easier.

 

[FullMoon]

I'm surprised Zinoto considers Greninja an even MU for Diddy, thought for sure he'd put it as an advantage.

 

[Trunks159]

So is going to evolve into a counterpick character? His matchup spread doesn't seem to be able to endure through a Major tourney. Likely a great and counterpick and solid vs .

 

[Trifroze]

Is a character honest if they kill you at 100%+, but they get to that with 3 conversions?

Is a character dishonest if you messed up hard enough to get meteored at 30% offstage?

The answer is that a character is honest to those who don't get pissed off by them, and a character is dishonest to those who get pissed off by them.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

45/55
50/50
55/45

This is the absolute worst / most pessimistic matchup spread for Diddy I'm willing to buy though personally I think it's more likely to look like this:



45/55
50/50
55/45
60/40+

 

[Baby_Sneak]

45/55
50/50
55/45

This is the absolute worst / most pessimistic matchup spread for Diddy I'm willing to buy though personally I think it's more likely to look like this:



45/55
50/50
55/45
60/40+

Diddy:Lucas even? how come?

 

[Das Koopa]

So, ZeRo's losing record 2015>Onwards is

2-3 vs. Concon in Oomba Grand Finals, for the reset (ZeRo wins second set 3-0)
2-3 vs. Vinnie at PAX Prime 2015, for the reset (ZeRo wins second set 3-1)
0-2 vs. Seagull Joe at The Big House 5 Pools (ZeRo later ends up winning tournament)
2-3 vs. Nairo at MLG Finals 2016, for the reset
1-3 vs. Nairo at MLG Final 2016 (Nairo wins, ZeRo 2nd.)
0-3 vs. Mew2King at GOML 2016
2-3 vs. Ally in Grand Finals of GOML (Ally wins, ZeRo 2nd)

There also have been a lot of "almosts". Nearly lost 2 sets to Dabuz and one set to Ranai at G3, nearly was eliminated by ANTi at TBH5, and as we saw yesterday, he was close to being eliminated by Mr. R, Leo, and Larry Lurr.

Pretty impressive, the only matches where he's overwhelmingly lost were vs. Seagull, Nairo (2), and Mew2King.

 

[BunbUn129]

Leo's mental state was no doubt negatively affecting his performance; it was his first time outside of his home country (correct me if I'm wrong). Even then, he had a convincing win over Nairo and was close to even beating ZeRo. I shudder to think of Leo's performance becoming even stronger if he was used to traveling.

While Mario and Diddy are losing MU's for MK, they aren't as bad as you'd think from watching Leo's sets against ZeRo and Ally. At worst, they're 60-40, but MK should only need a few reads and smart plays to overcome them, and Leo is definitely capable of that--he just lacked the proper experience against these characters. Mexico doesn't have a particularly amazing Mario or Diddy player (or a ZSS, so seems like that MU is winning for MK), so that of course gave Leo a hard time.

Leo opting for Cloud a lot does not indicate that MK is not top-level viable or that MK can't get strong results on his own; it just happens that Mario and Diddy are two of MK's worst MU's, while Cloud beats them/goes even. I hope that Leo can continue to attend majors outside of Mexico and gain more top-level experience in these two MU's in particular so he can at least manage them with MK.

 

[Das Koopa]

Also I'd say this is a credible top 10 player ranking

1: ZeRo
2: Nairo
3: Dabuz
4: Ally
5: Mr. R
---
6: VoiD
7: Larry Lurr
8: Abadango
9: Leo
10: Mew2King

Ranai, ANTi, and Vinnie have fallen off imo.

 

[Amadeus9]

There really should be an official elo ranking...

 

[Quantumpen]

Diddy-Mewtwo is even for many of the same reasons Mewtwo beats Sheik. Mewtwo's can zone him out with d-tilt/fair and shadow-ball all day. He puts extreme pressure on Diddy and makes it tough for Diddy to approach for fear of trading with one of Mewtwo's equally fast, slightly disjointed aerials or getting d-tilted into some nasty stuff.

Diddy has trouble killing M2 with anything but a d-tilt smash confirm which is tough to get with the constant threat of M2's down-tilt. He also doesn't want to be in the air in front of Mewtwo because fair beats all of Diddy's buttons with correct positioning and will kill Diddy at modest percents.

The only thing that makes Mewtwo not win outright like he does against Sheik is the banana.

 

[bc1910]

Zinoto's Diddy spread looks like the opposite of an ESAM spread. You could add 5 points in Diddy's advantage to pretty much every MU there and still have a good-looking spread.

Even Gheb's spread is quite pessimistic I think. I'd have all those evens as 55:45 except Mario, Fox and maybe Toon Link and Cloud.

Bayo is probably 60:40 for him now.

 

[RonNewcomb]

What "dead spot"? If you mean pointblank, then I see nothing wrong. There's clearly a hitbox there.

Yes, pointblank. He steps forward, past the person in front of him, and swipes behind them. If you're fine with it because the hitboxes match the animation, well, I'll agree to disagree. But I feel like I'm playing pre-pre-pre-patch Mewtwo.

Also, Sonic's 30 landing frames for Bair in Smash 4 to Brawl's 11. Last I checked, Sonic's Bair isn't broken, so why does it have 30 landing frames? Why not 15? It auto-cancels, but seriously.

Likely so he can't fish for kills with it by SHing it at a shield over & over. Sonic should earn kills the Sonic way, not the ZSS way.

The developers removed gliding.

Old up-b =/= gliding, but I miss gliding as well.

When did I say they were bad? Or did you simply infer that on your own?

Not to go all English Teacher on you, but what you wrote doesn't match what you're trying to say. The concluding paragraph "Pit ain't bad" doesn't jive with the supporting paragraphs of "Pit's disjoint footsies are worse than Marth & Ike", "Pit's dash mixup is worse that Falcon & MK's", etc. You'd need to present the good side as well: "But Pit's disjoint footsies work very well in MUs like Kirby and WFT who have issues with disjoints", and, "Pit's dash mixups give slowpokes like Link a really hard time". You're writing he ain't bad while only supporting the argument that he is.

But I think the crux of your argument why no one plays Pit has more to go with lacking a polarizing strength. Which I'd like to see your thoughts on, if only because I think Mario seems to refute the idea.

I think Pit is harder to play than Ryu. Ryu takes execution, but once learned his gameplan is pretty similar from MU to MU so you're good to go. Pit requires several gameplans depending on MU, and requires the ability to execute all these different gameplans. Who of us is pretty good at footsies AND edgeguarding AND dash mixups AND zoning AND maximizing punishes AND rushdown AND conservative play AND explosive play, etc., when we're not playing a character dedicated to the particular strength? Most of us are good at a couple of them and gravitate to a character that maximizes it. Pit doesn't qualify. Pit requires the player to be a jack-of-all-trades as well.

 

[LancerStaff]

The reason I keep trying to pick up Pit again but dropping him again is for bugs: aerial side-b is unsafe on hit, ftilt has a dead spot right in front of him, remote-controlled arrows can't even reach the blast zone corners, and of course, why does a boy with wings have so much landing lag.

I miss his old up-b.

I find those to be pretty silly nitpicks...

Pit's aerial side B isn't worth using onstage to begin with outside of some landing tech, and if you're using it to recover by the time you'll need it there'll be enough KB to be safe against most of the cast. Also note that Pit gets a massive air acceleration boost post attack, which can be used to create more space between you and the opponent.

The blindspot on his Ftilt isn't even worth noting, since Fsmash covers the same area and then some in the same amount of time and it's more powerful to boot.

They can, either with some charge or a jump or two beforehand. Don't even have to move from your spot.

Probably to prevent ridiculously strong combos into his Smash attacks... If falling Uair, Dair or Nair were safe on shield you'd just spam those until they get hit and combo it into Usmash, considering falling Uair already does combo into Usmash. Same idea with Fair and Fsmash, though I don't think you could space it at max range if such a combo existed. The landing lag is only a hinderance when landing from a juggle, and even then Bair's safe enough when spaced and Pit has a bunch of jumps so landing is weird but not necessarily a problem.

Old up B was overpowered though. Pit could fly faster then some characters could run, and as a result there really wasn't any counterplay to his ledge game and he'd be able to camp characters such as Dorf and Robin indefinitely. Even without gliding it was dumb.

 

[teddystalin]

Also I'd say this is a credible top 10 player ranking

1: ZeRo
2: Nairo
3: Dabuz
4: Ally
5: Mr. R
---
6: VoiD
7: Larry Lurr
8: Abadango
9: Leo
10: Mew2King

Ranai, ANTi, and Vinnie have fallen off imo.

While Ally is coming off of his biggest win ever, I still think it's premature to give him the #4 spot. Until he beat ZeRo yesterday, he hadn't managed to take a game off him, and (with the exception of ELGX Grands) has been unable to make a dent in Nairo and Dabuz since the Diddy nerf. And despite having an overall winning record, he and Mr. R have been going back and forth recently. I do think he probably belongs in top 5, but it's worth noting that he's been able to avoid his demons during his outstanding Pound and GOML runs (until the well-deserved victory over ZeRo).

Mr. R on the other hand hasn't been able to win a major, but has a winning record over pretty much everyone bar ZeRo, Dabuz, Ally, and Larry, going near even or even with the latter two.

Aba is tricky to judge: in terms of results against top players, he looks outstanding, but he's had the least consistent results in his home region of any top player ("Japan syndrome").

Ranai and Vinnie are both coming off of long hiatuses. Who knows if they'll get back to their former peaks, but they're hard to place now.

I'd also say that if Marss doesn't belong in the discussion now, he will by the end of this year.

 

[|RK|]

Don't take DK to Smashville?

https://youtu.be/oS8VXdiE-nU

 

[Pazzo.]

Brief commentary: Really liking the discussions/ideas floating around here. It only took us a year and a whole bunch of patches, but we're settling into a very nice, distinct meta for SSB4.

 

[meleebrawler]

I can sorta see where you're coming from but there's actually more to it. Ryu in SFV is actually incredible, but that's mostly because his damage output is absurd in addition to having a solid answer for every situation, making him a really scary character that thrives in SFV's environment. If he was faster he'd unarguably be the best. Mario's strengths lies in his mobility and frame data. I don't know if they're all arounders anymore, but you'd still be right about them being similar in a sense right now.

Mario's more of a Ken, focussing more on multi-hits and stringing them together coupled with in-your-face pressure than raw footsies. Just compare his Super Jump Punch and dair to Ken's Shoryuken and Tatsumaki, respectively.

Diddy-Mewtwo is even for many of the same reasons Mewtwo beats Sheik. Mewtwo's can zone him out with d-tilt/fair and shadow-ball all day. He puts extreme pressure on Diddy and makes it tough for Diddy to approach for fear of trading with one of Mewtwo's equally fast, slightly disjointed aerials or getting d-tilted into some nasty stuff.

Diddy has trouble killing M2 with anything but a d-tilt smash confirm which is tough to get with the constant threat of M2's down-tilt. He also doesn't want to be in the air in front of Mewtwo because fair beats all of Diddy's buttons with correct positioning and will kill Diddy at modest percents.

The only thing that makes Mewtwo not win outright like he does against Sheik is the banana.

Even then, charging a Shadow Ball often gives Diddy pause for thought when trying to get said banana, whether in the ground or the air.

 

[Ffamran]

Yes, pointblank. He steps forward, past the person in front of him, and swipes behind them. If you're fine with it because the hitboxes match the animation, well, I'll agree to disagree. But I feel like I'm playing pre-pre-pre-patch Mewtwo.

That's just lack of understanding the move and poor spacing then. It's like people complaining that Ganondorf's Wizard's Foot misses pointblank and Samus's dash attack misses pointblank. Granted, Samus sets up a tackle before using her boosters to perform a stronger tackle, but still. It's how the move moves; it's a design choice... If I step forward and kick like Ken's step kick, I will step pass you if I'm too close. I will not magically hit you because your hurtbox happened to be right on my body.

There are other, more problematic hitbox issues like Marth's sword going past people's bodies with Uair and nothing happening. Or DK's Smashes. Sure, he's clapping at a specific area, but maybe he could have sour-spots.

Likely so he can't fish for kills with it by SHing it at a shield over & over. Sonic should earn kills the Sonic way, not the ZSS way.

Why on Mobius would you fish for a kill with a frame 13 move? You only do that if you're Peach and can float about. Sonic can't do that. If he could, sure, but he can't.

Old up-b =/= gliding, but I miss gliding as well.

Got me on that one. I swore you could glide out of Wings of Icarus, though... Been a long time since I played Brawl...

 

[juddy96]

IIRC There's a really good Diddy in Mexico (Icey I think) but yea I'll pull a Greninja main and say that Leo facing against the best of their respective characters (which both happened to be disadvantageous MU's for MK) did not help Leo at all. I think MK's exceptional, but not the top of the pack.

EDIT: What is Little Mac's status in the meta? I don't know how his MU's go with other top tiers but I'm confident in saying that he goes even with ZSS and Sheik, two big hitters of the meta.

IC is a 3 hour flight away from Leo. Other side of the country.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Yes, pointblank. He steps forward, past the person in front of him, and swipes behind them. If you're fine with it because the hitboxes match the animation, well, I'll agree to disagree. But I feel like I'm playing pre-pre-pre-patch Mewtwo.



Likely so he can't fish for kills with it by SHing it at a shield over & over. Sonic should earn kills the Sonic way, not the ZSS way.



Old up-b =/= gliding, but I miss gliding as well.




Not to go all English Teacher on you, but what you wrote doesn't match what you're trying to say. The concluding paragraph "Pit ain't bad" doesn't jive with the supporting paragraphs of "Pit's disjoint footsies are worse than Marth & Ike", "Pit's dash mixup is worse that Falcon & MK's", etc. You'd need to present the good side as well: "But Pit's disjoint footsies work very well in MUs like Kirby and WFT who have issues with disjoints", and, "Pit's dash mixups give slowpokes like Link a really hard time". You're writing he ain't bad while only supporting the argument that he is.

But I think the crux of your argument why no one plays Pit has more to go with lacking a polarizing strength. Which I'd like to see your thoughts on, if only because I think Mario seems to refute the idea.

I think Pit is harder to play than Ryu. Ryu takes execution, but once learned his gameplan is pretty similar from MU to MU so you're good to go. Pit requires several gameplans depending on MU, and requires the ability to execute all these different gameplans. Who of us is pretty good at footsies AND edgeguarding AND dash mixups AND zoning AND maximizing punishes AND rushdown AND conservative play AND explosive play, etc., when we're not playing a character dedicated to the particular strength? Most of us are good at a couple of them and gravitate to a character that maximizes it. Pit doesn't qualify. Pit requires the player to be a jack-of-all-trades as well.

What Ryu does depends on what his opponent does or wants to do.

You can't say Ryus gameplan is the same every fight when he can legit outfootsie Mario and Diddy, but then vs Marth he pretty much can't ever hit a button ever because he gets stuffed for free. I won't get into this, but it seems your understanding of match flow is basic, which is no insult. I know you are intelligent by the way you present your arguments, so if you do a bit more thinking on this subject I am sure you will see what I mean. Consider Ryus mobility and how he has to put his gameplan in effect and you will see it is simply impossible for him to play every match the same.

Also I DID say Pit had some good stuff. My point was to show he has nothing overtuned or overly strong. Which he does not and we all agree on that.

Ultimately though I will make this clear. I'm here to be objective. I'm not out to hurt anyones feelings about their char, but at the same time....eh, face reality. There is a clear cut reason why some chars are played over others. Sheik imo takes way more skill then most chars in this game and she is simply AMAZING. Why would you put that effort into Pit who is solid, when you can put that effort into Sheik who is awesome AND super fun? Why doesn't Nairo main Dark Pit? These are the tough questions you need to ask yourself.

As for Mario....his frame data isn't a polarizing strength?

That's...interesting.

 

[ARISTOS]

Panda Global Rankings 30-21

http://panda.gg/articles/news/gaming/35/panda-global-rankings-30-21

30. Pink Fresh
29. SlayerZ
28. Mew2King
27. K9sbruce
26. Rain
25. Trela
24. Hyuga
23. Zinoto
22. Tyrant
21. MVD

Thoughts:

- Unless Pink Fresh continues in his previous form, it's all downhill from here
- Short from a surprise show of Umeki, we've probably seen the highest of

- MVD is super overrated but also had the lowest X-factor. M2K had the highest at +11, followed by Rain at +5

Looking back through the list, the following characters have showed up:

x5x4
x2x2x2x2x2

 

[Das Koopa]

>MVD ahead of Zinoto

lol

X-Factor definitely means a lot here. ESAM being in the top 20 is also super questionable imo.

 

[Ninety]

I'm really digging Mew2King's rise in Smash 4. There was a lot of (warranted) skepticism when ZeRo put him as the best Cloud, and as we all know, M2K's performance is very variable depending on his mental state (ie, if he's in winner's or loser's), but when he's playing at his peak, holy ****. Panda Global's list stopped considering results at May 9th, and I'd say that after his recent results, M2K is easily a top 20 player at the least.

Also, what ever happened to Tweek?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

30. Pink Fresh
29. SlayerZ
28. Mew2King
27. K9sbruce
26. Rain
25. Trela
24. Hyuga
23. Zinoto
22. Tyrant
21. MVD

Literally every player on that list is objectively better than MVD lmao

 

[Zelder]

MVD, sponsored by Panda Global, ranks in at #21 on a list put out by Panda Global. HRMMMmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Look forward to ESAM grabbing the top 2 spots somehow, lol.

 

[Luco]

Das Koopa I really like your top 10 ranking, the only one I'm a little skeptical for is Leo, and only because I don't think we've seen his peak yet. I think he, like quite a few others has the potential to smack right onto that list though. I'd probably be tempted to put VoiD on that list instead for now, but Ionno.

 

[EnhaloTricks]

Das Koopa there's a mysterious lack of FOW on your top 10. Do you not believe he's there?

 

[Luco]

Das Koopa there's a mysterious lack of FOW on your top 10. Do you not believe he's there?

This will be Das Koopa's to answer, but I wouldn't put FOW in my top 10 either, as much as I dearly want to. The man loses to most of the top players on a regular basis (and then some players below him like that notable loss to Tearbear), and although he definitely has the potential to beat pretty much any one of them, he needs momentum - a finnicky strength - and knowledge to do it on a more consistent basis before I would place him top 10. Right now I would put him between 10 and 20.

But ohmigod I want FOW to be a top 10 staple. He's a really hype player.

 

[Megamang]

Mario's dair is also a crazy strength. Not many characters have a multihit with a landing hit that allows amazing shield pressure throughout the move, is a free crossup when it hits your shield at all, can confirm from a uair for kills (@DunnoBro on the specifics here), and has so many active frames that it really threatens airdodges especially near the ceiling and doubly especially with rage. The weakness of falling out of it is gone with even a little rage. Due to its multihit nature, it is also particularly good against certain other hitboxes, like beating a projectile with a hit, stopping their landing trap with a hit, then hitting them with the landing hit.

This is very situational, but the landing hit also confirms into a usmash.


Also... I wouldn't say that his edgeguarding is mediocre when cape is a death sentence for a lot of characters. FLUDD is also very, very powerful at the ledge and trades the damage racking ability of most projectiles for the ability to essentially force a landing or even ledge/return situation in neutral. Fireballs are also scary offstage for many characters, and his mobility + aerials are also terrifying for most.


He is also really, really good with rage. Bthrow gets crazy, ceiling combos/SJP gets crazy, FLUDD gets absolutely insane near 150%... Mario is never out of a game until he is dead.


He has meaningful weaknesses, but I don't see him a as a jack of all trades at all. His buttons are just crazy good.

 

[EnhaloTricks]

This will be Das Koopa's to answer, but I wouldn't put FOW in my top 10 either, as much as I dearly want to. The man loses to most of the top players on a regular basis (and then some players below him like that notable loss to Tearbear), and although he definitely has the potential to beat pretty much any one of them, he needs momentum - a finnicky strength - and knowledge to do it on a more consistent basis before I would place him top 10. Right now I would put him between 10 and 20.

But ohmigod I want FOW to be a top 10 staple. He's a really hype player.

I can agree with that to a point. I feel his consistent top 8 placings at (super)majors should at least put him in contention for the top 10. At minimum around 11-15. He's lost to a lot of the people above him, but they weren't blowouts either. Being a momentum based player as he is definitely is a hindrance. Same for the fact that he doesn't really know how to slow down (FOW vs. Trela) when needed.

FOW as a top 10 staple would be super hype though. I'm hoping by the end of the year he'll show us, though.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

Dw guys, we will see Esam in top 5 to make it all feel better :D

 

[Chalice]

Trend I think I'm seeing as of this moment? (In order)

Top 10 Characters in terms of most results (With my opinion too of course. Trying to make this as least biased as possible)



Diddy and Sheik I don't think need explanations

Zero Suit is usually just behind those 2 in every major

After those 3 we've mainly seen Fox as of late

Mario could actually be in front of Fox but ANTi can't make up his damn mind on focusing on his godly Mario. Also, we got a TON of high level Foxes along with Larry compared to, like, 3 or 4 notable Marios? (Ally, ANTi. Zenyou, and the MArio who beat ESAM? Meanwhile, we got guys like Ksev, Megafox, Sodrek, Xzax, VoiD who pockets Fox and his amazing at him too, and Larry)

Cloud is 6th because he poops all over Sonic and Rosa and we've seen it consistently in sets like M2K/Tweek vs Dabuz/6WX but we tend to see him get bopped by the guys in front of him or just falling short.

Sonic is 7th because he just generally has solid results overall but doesn't seem to make it past the characters in front of him.

Rosalina is 8th because Dabuz is a thing but.... that's it. Also he got rekt by Larry, M2K, and Tweek. He still hasn't beaten Mr. R as far as I know and only beat Nairo once. There's also Falln but he can never beat Larry sooooooo

Ryu is 9th due to the several Ryus we've been seeing place here and there. Trela's victory at Pink Fresh Saga over various people and characters is also a factor. There's also that tourney this past weekend with DJ Jack getting 2nd (Forgot who he lost to). I can totally see him continuing to rise up because he has a good match up with Sheik, Fox, and Sonic. Plus his meta is underdeveloped and yet it's already really good so far.

Bayonetta is 10th because she still made those results pre-nerf. I still think she's bonkers because Witch Time and if you DI improperly she can still potentially 0-death you. Her nerfs will probably make her drop further though. Plus she never really got 1st at any huge tourney even before nerfs showing that although she was nuts, she wasn't unbeatable. Just overtuned


Opinions?

 

[Das Koopa]

Das Koopa there's a mysterious lack of FOW on your top 10. Do you not believe he's there?

The 10 number is somewhat arbitrary and anything past 7th (Lurr) is pretty shaky and hard to define, so FOW could be a contender, sure. M2K, Abadango, and Leo probably have the most recent success, but it could all be compared with the work of plays like FOW, ANTi, Marss, etc.

also I think Kamemushi might be secret top 15 but we need to see him compete in true majors to know for sure