Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Thecombosetups]

OK OK

 

[|RK|]

No, I think a kill throw should be defined by base percents that apply to the whole roster. That's really the only way the definition makes sense to me. I don't think it makes sense to separate kill throws based on average stock length.

Ness' Bthrow is considered the best kill throw in the game and it'll usually kill around 120% but average stock length against, say, ZSS, is pretty short because she can confirm kills as early as 30%. Going by average stock length, we'd consider Ness' Bthrow a bad kill throw or not a kill throw at all if it was on ZSS. That doesn't make sense and I think it's a lot less messy to define a kill throw as a throw that kills around or before a certain percent.

On the subject of Bayonetta's Fthrow I don't believe it qualifies as a "kill throw" as with good DI it struggles to kill at the ledge even at 150% and, since you need to be near the ledge, it's massively dependent on positioning. It's a reasonable fallback kill option but nothing more.

I can get behind this

 

[RonNewcomb]

Throws that kill below 200% are more like stock caps.

"Kill throws" which come from "kill moves", should kill below 150%. And it's not like we call moves that KO at 180% kill moves...

Yeah, but you got two dozen moves but only 4 throws, so I think some leniency is ok. I consider Marth's uthrow to be a kill throw despite not working until 160+. But it works from anywhere and when there's platforms...
I guess I'm saying 169 is my cutoff? I don't really consider bayo's fthrow to be a kill because it requires ledge and\or rage, like an uthrow requiring a platform. It's the conditions tacked on that reduce it in my eyes.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Corrin's Uthrow kills earlier than Dthrow, yeah, but I think it has more to do with Dthrow being much better to DI because it takes forever for the throw to complete. It's the same reason why Mario and Luigi Bthrow's kill percentages should only factor in DI, and why Sonic's Fthrow doesn't have to since it completes so quickly to mess DI reads up.



The other thing about kill throws is that for those with kill confirms off the throws, I think they should be counted, since that confirmed kill could not have come to pass without that throw to initiate it. So Robin's Dthrow, Bowser's Uthrow, and DK's Cargo Uthrow should count imo.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

Considering how living to 200% isn't that unusual in this game, I guess those could be considered kill throws. I dunno. My mentality is that this should really only could for throws that can reasonably kill at 150 or below from center stage but then you'd have like 5 throws if you took rage out of the picture. So, that said (of those I can actually remember) these people have "kill throws" (kill by 200% with or without rage):

fthrow-
bthrow-
uthrow-
dthrow-

Falcon Bthrow kills earlier than Fthrow. Uthrow also kills eventually (I don't bother remembering the percent but it's before 200%. 175-180?) but not before Bthrow/Fthrow or a bair usually will.

 

[Luigi player]

Corrin's Uthrow kills earlier than Dthrow, yeah, but I think it has more to do with Dthrow being much better to DI because it takes forever for the throw to complete. It's the same reason why Mario and Luigi Bthrow's kill percentages should only factor in DI, and why Sonic's Fthrow doesn't have to since it completes so quickly to mess DI reads up.



The other thing about kill throws is that for those with kill confirms off the throws, I think they should be counted, since that confirmed kill could not have come to pass without that throw to initiate it. So Robin's Dthrow, Bowser's Uthrow, and DK's Cargo Uthrow should count imo.

DI should always be factored in. People will DI things like throws correctly like 99 % of the time. If you're playing at a low level then I guess it varies.

 

[deepseadiva]

The other thing about kill throws is that for those with kill confirms off the throws, I think they should be counted, since that confirmed kill could not have come to pass without that throw to initiate it. So Robin's Dthrow, Bowser's Uthrow, and DK's Cargo Uthrow should count imo.

Kill combo. We're obfuscating meaning without making that clarification.

And in a game where we say things like "reverse pivot into a dABK into BCLLC" pretty regularly, clarity is important and needed.

And especially here which is like The Official Nitpick What Everyone Says thread.

 

[Meatbag]

https://mobile.twitter.com/noji_nko/status/697079597616107520
Looks like you can di bayos witch twist. So her combos wont be that amazing.
All the credit goes to wn2 and that ike main

 

[bc1910]

200% is definitely too high to consider a throw to be a kill move. There a characters on that list like Diddy and Bowser Jr who should never be killing with raw throws.

But again, 150% is too low because, assuming optimal DI, there are hardly any throws that kill below that percent from centre stage. Ness' Bthrow (~130%), Mewtwo's Uthrow (~135%)and Lucas' Uthrow (~144%) are the only ones that come to mind. No other Bthrow is even close and ROB, Olimar and Zard's Uthrows all kill later than 150% with optimal DI. Kirby's newly buffed Uthrow might kill below 150% but that's all I can think of.

I think 170% from centre stage is a reasonable compromise for a throw to be considered a reliable kill throw. 160% minimum.

The keyword here is reliable because there are still plenty of throws that can kill earlier with positional advantage. Many Bthrows by the ledge, Wario/the Pits' Fthrows by the ledge ane platform-assisted Uthrows can kill earlier. It's important to consider your characters kill options from grab with positional awareness in mind.

 

[Jaguar360]

Considering how living to 200% isn't that unusual in this game, I guess those could be considered kill throws. I dunno. My mentality is that this should really only could for throws that can reasonably kill at 150 or below from center stage but then you'd have like 5 throws if you took rage out of the picture. So, that said (of those I can actually remember) these people have "kill throws" (kill by 200% with or without rage):

fthrow-
bthrow-
uthrow-
dthrow-

Pikachu U-throw kills ~180 and Falco has a killing U-throw and B-throw. I believe that Mii SF b-throw and Brawler F-throw also kill sub 200%.

And Roy's U-throw kills around where Marcina's does.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

https://mobile.twitter.com/noji_nko/status/697079597616107520
Looks like you can di bayos witch twist. So her combos wont be that amazing

God bless this man

 

[TTTTTsd]

God bless this man

Is that Quarter Circle DI or just two stick SDI?

Both will be invaluable I think.

 

[Big-Cat]

Also more data but it seems like Sakurai and the developers remembered a way to remove the 9% rule when it comes to moves clashing and beating out others. So far moves to have this property are only:

Villager Timber
Bayo Smashes
Corrin Fsmash
Corrin Side B
Corrin Neutral B projectile

Can you explain this in detail please? I get Bayo's Smashes getting beaten by any clashing hitbox, but I'm not grasping Timber.

https://mobile.twitter.com/noji_nko/status/697079597616107520
Looks like you can di bayos witch twist. So her combos wont be that amazing.
All the credit goes to wn2 and that ike main

Saw this coming from the beginning. I swear I've seen it on FG a few times, but I could be wrong.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

https://mobile.twitter.com/noji_nko/status/697079597616107520
Looks like you can di bayos witch twist. So her combos wont be that amazing.
All the credit goes to wn2 and that ike main

I swear that guy is the new Mr.Doom. He's the same guy who showed the SDI vs Ryu video.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I swear that guy is the new Mr.Doom. He's the same guy who showed the SDI vs Ryu video.

The biggest difference is that people are actually gonna have to do this vs. Bayo or they're gonna get cheesed lol.

I can't recall people ever implementing Quarter Circle DI vs. Ryu utilt strings despite it being reliable on reaction after he goes for more than 1 utilt, dunno why. Perhaps I just haven't seen it?

It's a lot more important here though, for sure.

 

[Halifax?]

I get the feeling SDI is becoming one of the most important defensive techniques to learn in Smash 4.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

I get the feeling SDI is becoming one of the most important defensive techniques to learn in Smash 4.

Well it is definitely slowly getting damn relevant.

 

[R3D3MON]

I get the feeling SDI is becoming one of the most important defensive techniques to learn in Smash 4.

It should have been from the start, but I think people have been ignoring it for a while because air dodging exists, and also because after people learned that DI/SDI was a lot weaker in SM4SH, they kinda didn't consider it an important defensive option because it was less effective and harder to consistently pull off (SDI especially). I see this as another great example of the meta developing, especially in terms of defensive options, not just offensive options, which I always felt was under developed and not fully explored.

 

[Flux0r]

Apparently, Super Smash Bros. For Wii U and 3DS Development has ended.

What will this mean for the game's future? Will the little hope that remains for Jigglypuff's viability totally dwindle away?

 

[LancerStaff]

Apparently, Super Smash Bros. For Wii U and 3DS Development has ended.

What will this mean for the game's future? Will the little hope that remains for Jigglypuff's viability totally dwindle away?

I'm surprised they tried to get Corrin and Bayo right first try... Dunno how well that'll turn out.

More importantly though, I wonder if they can still fix glitches? Corrin's pretty bugged and no doubt we're going to find something else degenerate down the line.

Also they never fixed the blatant graphical error on Dark Pit's pummel on 3DS. *sigh*

 

[Amadeus9]

No rage, no platform: Corrin's Uthrow > Dthrow

Rage, platform: Corrin Dthrow > Uthrow

Dthrow has higher base knockback so being elevated on a platform, or having rage affect it much more than Uthrow. The difference can actually be pretty huge. Like, killing at 100-110% with dthrow with proper DI versus 125% or so with uthrow, proper DI.

 

[Emblem Lord]

It should have been from the start, but I think people have been ignoring it for a while because air dodging exists, and also because after people learned that DI/SDI was a lot weaker in SM4SH, they kinda didn't consider it an important defensive option because it was less effective and harder to consistently pull off (SDI especially). I see this as another great example of the meta developing, especially in terms of defensive options, not just offensive options, which I always felt was under developed and not fully explored.

Exactly.

People are ****ing lazy.

And you wonder why Zero is so ****ing dominant when our community is full of fraudulent weaklings.

 

[Luig]

It should have been from the start, but I think people have been ignoring it for a while because air dodging exists, and also because after people learned that DI/SDI was a lot weaker in SM4SH, they kinda didn't consider it an important defensive option because it was less effective and harder to consistently pull off (SDI especially). I see this as another great example of the meta developing, especially in terms of defensive options, not just offensive options, which I always felt was under developed and not fully explored.

Actually, since vectoring is in this game, DI allows you by itself to live longer than melee. But not brawl because momentum cancel lol.

 

[Megamang]

Perhaps development != balancing... perhaps.


If not, the fact that zss got nerfed harder than shiek, and shieks tiny tiny nerfs which seemed like a testing point, no zelda or puff buffs while FE got overhauled.. all puzzling.


Well, if patching ends at least they'll stop buffing ike.

 

[Luig]

Perhaps development != balancing... perhaps.


If not, the fact that zss got nerfed harder than shiek, and shieks tiny tiny nerfs which seemed like a testing point, no zelda or puff buffs while FE got overhauled.. all puzzling.


Well, if patching ends at least they'll stop buffing ike.

They balance more based around Japan's meta, and they think the FE characters suck.

Even more than we do (barring ike)

 

[Radical Larry]

Perhaps development != balancing... perhaps.


If not, the fact that zss got nerfed harder than shiek, and shieks tiny tiny nerfs which seemed like a testing point, no zelda or puff buffs while FE got overhauled.. all puzzling.


Well, if patching ends at least they'll stop buffing ike.

They need to have one more patch, at least for the Corrin glitch and further balancing.
And the fact that it'd be 1.1.5...

 

[RonNewcomb]

https://mobile.twitter.com/noji_nko/status/697079597616107520
Looks like you can di bayos witch twist. So her combos wont be that amazing.
All the credit goes to wn2 and that ike main

Which way DI? I can't read Japanese.

 

[Luig]

The reason Sheik didn't get nerfed that much is because she sucks in FFAs. They had to balance around that too.

DDD is made for free-for alls, where 40 frame smash attacks are useable regularly.

Jiggs was made for.....

Getting killed at 50?

And cloud, while definitely good in singles, seems like he was made even more for teams. He's just dumb in teams.

 

[Sinister Slush]

The twitter vid won't even load for me.

 

[jespoke]

The reason Sheik didn't get nerfed that much is because she sucks in FFAs. They had to balance around that too.

DDD is made for free-for alls, where 40 frame smash attacks are useable regularly.

Jiggs was made for.....

Getting killed at 50?

And cloud, while definitely good in singles, seems like he was made even more for teams. He's just dumb in teams.

Jiggs was made to time out matches at the top of the screen with speed equipment to convince people not to play with those to any serious capacity (Though i can reccomend playing friendlies with silly equipment sets like +200 speed Sonic and +200 defense Ganondorf, it is crazy fun)

The twitter vid won't even load for me.

Remove the "mobile" from the url, worked for me

 

[Lavani]

Looks like he's SDIing down and behind her. The early examples put him under the final hitbox, the last one just has him fly out under and behind Bayo.

Just SDIing toward her back seems to work well too.

(edit since someone's going to ask: her modifiers are 1.3 hitlag 1.0 sdi)

 

[SaltyKracka]

I honestly would not be surprised if this was the end of patches period. It is certainly the end of new content.

 

[Luig]

I'm not sure how much DI affects this combo but Sheik players might want to master the SDI

 

[19_]

Looks like he's SDIing down and behind her. The early examples put him under the final hitbox, the last one just has him fly out under and behind Bayo.

Just SDIing toward her back seems to work well too.

(edit since someone's going to ask: her modifiers are 1.3 hitlag 1.0 sdi)

that looks like a back air just waiting to happen...

 

[R3D3MON]

Actually, since vectoring is in this game, DI allows you by itself to live longer than melee. But not brawl because momentum cancel lol.

I was referencing combo DI/SDI, but nonetheless what you said is true.

 

[Luig]

Looks like he's SDIing down and behind her. The early examples put him under the final hitbox, the last one just has him fly out under and behind Bayo.

Just SDIing toward her back seems to work well too.

(edit since someone's going to ask: her modifiers are 1.3 hitlag 1.0 sdi)

1.0 sdi is actually a lot. That's like melee sdi.

In smash 4, it's just that almost universally the sdi multiplier is lower.
They must have done that intentionally. And the extra hitlag helps.

 

[Lavani]

1.0 sdi is actually a lot. That's like melee sdi.

In smash 4, it's just that almost universally the sdi multiplier is lower.

That's straight-up untrue. The majority of attacks in this game are set to 1.0 SDI, SDI as a mechanic was globally nerfed from previous games. Individual SDI inputs are about half the strength of Brawl's, and dual stick SDI being nerfed reduces the number of realistic inputs possible.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Does this make Witch Twist potentiall punishable on hit?

 

[Luig]

That's straight-up untrue. The majority of attacks in this game are set to 1.0 SDI, SDI as a mechanic was globally nerfed from previous games. Individual SDI inputs are about half the strength of Brawl's, and dual stick SDI being nerfed reduces the number of realistic inputs possible.

Oh.
Thank you for teaching me, I thought it was unchanged.

 

[Lavani]

Does this make Witch Twist potentiall punishable on hit?

If you escape from the upper hitbox on hits 2 or 3, it seems that way.

I don't think that's realistic in a combo situation though. what am I even saying that's where I escaped it in the gif i posted lmao

that hasn't consistently been my escape point on repeated attempts though