Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Baby_Sneak]

Low tier =/= extremely bad either

:V

 

[Radical Larry]

@Das Koopa So how do you think he does against Samus?

Low tier =/= extremely bad either

:V

Ganondorf can be considered somewhat of a low tier character by now; but the lowest of the Low Tier characters at that. He's got a lot of things that make him considerably better than any bottom tier character can be (except D3, who is possibly 1 to 2 placements higher).

 

[Vyrnx]

I don't really think Samus beats Cloud (which is where Larry is going with this btw). It's probably a slight disadvantage for Samus, but a decent MU. Could be even if only because nair really is tough for Cloud to deal with. I agree that Samus would be considered a pretty good character if she had a top player maining her, but I think that could be said for a lot of characters.

 

[bc1910]

TBH, everything you say about applies equally to . I only bring this up because (correct me if I'm wrong) you're pretty adamant about the latter's potential. I'd personally argue the correct response in both cases is optimism tempered with skepticism. There are just too many contenders for high tier, so either it'll end up including half the cast or some candidates will slide into upper mid.

I had sort of considered this before posting; I wasn't saying that the two are different. Obviously iStudy leads the Greninja train but you also have Elexaio and Some, and then USA regional presence from IceArrow, Gibus and Venia. Greninja doesn't rely on one player if you dig a little deeper. The implication from the post I was quoting was that MM relies completely on Scatt - I was actually arguing that this wasn't true based on the KSB win (and fairly consistent top 8 placings in Japan). Neither character has Pikachu syndrome.

Although I don't think MM is quite there yet (he flat out doesn't kill well enough against people who know the MU) I think Greninja is solidly better than upper mid candidates like Ike, Yoshi or Lucario. MM does have potential and it wouldn't shock me if he ended up above them purely because of how good his neutral is. Competition for high tier isn't that fierce if we're being honest, there aren't that many characters that have the appropriate combination of results and MU theory to justify it. It's the borderline/upper mid tier where things start to get messy.

I always kept on pointing out Link's phenomenal results in Europe that would solidify him as middle tier, but apparently people don't want to admit that he and Mii Brawler are a lot better than they seem.

Isn't that low tier stigma yummy, you casuals?

We have people playing Link at a level that can get him into top 8s and 16s in nationals and majors in Europe, America and other places, but people are just ignoring him because they WANT him to be a low tier and don't want to admit he's actually viable.

I have a feeling I'll regret this but may I ask why you are so insistent on Link being a mid tier and not a low tier?

Neither the mid tiers nor the low tiers are bad characters in this game. Neither group are as viable as their high or upper mid rivals, either.

Are you trying to slowly build a case for Link being a high tier?

 

[LancerStaff]

ESAM went over options to deal with Cloud ledge snapping with Clamhazzard from above... Just perfect shield and attack with something fast. He says you need to have a move f5 or faster (Pit Dsmash lol) but I was thinking you could just angle the shield up and get an extra frame or two.

 

[New_Dumal]

Yes, he's closer to Luigi. His tools were overall good, but then there was one highly problematic move that was so easily abusable, like Luigi's down throw. MK will really fall hard once people SDI the uairs; I've seen MK's connect them on Ryu, Marth, and Bayonetta among others who should've been able to escape with ease.

Ok, maybe is because my definition of top tier and high tier are not the same.
A character who isn't good at 70%+ of MU's is not high tier in my book. Let's remember Smash Bros franchise is not the most balanced one around, and high tiers are the minimum a players usually needs to achieve something great at the scene.

Right now, MK is falling hard. When you say "when people SDI the Uairs", you're forgetting that the best players will not be laddered to the skies anymore, and it's already happening (by MK, at least).
MK right now have a lot of neutral MU's, good MU's against floats and characters with difficult to fight against his pression at medium distance, great/fantastic MU with almost nobody relevant.

Leo is now losing in his region (where he used to be the best), Tyrant is switching more and more(someone spoke to me), Abadango dropped the character, Ito is switching more and more.
I'm not aware of any MK very good placing (top5) at majors for a while, and even in locals he is not shining.
I'm not only complaining, I'm playing him, trying to lab, I think he still have potential. But potential is not usefull parameter for tier list discussion.
You can say that Ness is a high tier. Villager is (quite probably) high tier. Fox is high tier. MK is around ? No.
MK is now in the Luigi situaction, as you mentioned. The famous "you're not high tier situation".

 

[Greward]

Mega Man is not carried only by Scatt, if even.
Japan has plenty of strong Mega Man players, with Kamemushi and Daiki as the most succesful. Nga is great too

Mega Man in USA has also had decent results at regionals and at majors with certain players. Before Scatt times, NinjaLink was very succesful with him (13th at APEX I think) until he dropped mega and disappeared from the spotlight.

There's actually more results going on for Mega Man than for Greninja tbh, but he's also a more popular pick.

 

[New_Dumal]

Low tier =/= extremely bad either
:V

If you're classifying they as good/bad from the design perpesctive alone, something like : what they can do/punish, their realm of possibilities, their options ; but ignoring the opponent options in comparison.
Smash4 roster don't have any extremely bad character. Maybe few are bad, but no one is horrible.

But when you're talking about tiers placement you're usually talking about competitive play, so now the number of the options/possibilities of a characters must be compared while fighting all others.
This stated, if your focus is to compete/win at high-level play, low tiers are extremely bad. ( considering the metagame)
In the metagame the chances of a low tier character win a major is almost zero, even with they having their things.

When someone not that good is playing with friends, Ganondorf is yet a bad option, but I agree he is not extremely bad.

At the metagame:
+ : Top tiers are good/desirable.
0 : High tiers are ok/acceptable
- : Mid tiers are BAD/avoidable.
-- : Low tiers are Extremely bad/unmindful
.--. : Bottom tiers are "I really like this character and don't care to win".

(I'm not trash talking any character choice. I'm talking about what they represent to the metagame play.)

 

[Radical Larry]

I have a feeling I'll regret this but may I ask why you are so insistent on Link being a mid tier and not a low tier?

Neither the mid tiers nor the low tiers are bad characters in this game. Neither group are as viable as their high or upper mid rivals, either.

Are you trying to slowly build a case for Link being a high tier?

Not after what happened near the beginning of the games life. I'm not going to build a case for him to be a high tier character whatsoever, but all I'm saying is that Link is a decent character comparable to other low or the lower portion of middle tier characters. The results are just really starting to pick up for him, and that can be evidence for him to stay at middle tier.

 

[ARISTOS]

For y'all

Edit: Also this set was interesting as well. Peep the number of 0-deaths

 

[Nu~]

****...
He destroyed komo. Absolutely beautiful setups

 

[Baby_Sneak]

If you're classifying they as good/bad from the design perpesctive alone, something like : what they can do/punish, their realm of possibilities, their options ; but ignoring the opponent options in comparison.
Smash4 roster don't have any extremely bad character. Maybe few are bad, but no one is horrible.

But when you're talking about tiers placement you're usually talking about competitive play, so now the number of the options/possibilities of a characters must be compared while fighting all others.
This stated, if your focus is to compete/win at high-level play, low tiers are extremely bad. ( considering the metagame)
In the metagame the chances of a low tier character win a major is almost zero, even with they having their things.

When someone not that good is playing with friends, Ganondorf is yet a bad option, but I agree he is not extremely bad.

At the metagame:
+ : Top tiers are good/desirable.
0 : High tiers are ok/acceptable
- : Mid tiers are BAD/avoidable.
-- : Low tiers are Extremely bad/unmindful
.--. : Bottom tiers are "I really like this character and don't care to win".

(I'm not trash talking any character choice. I'm talking about what they represent to the metagame play.)

I feel like you're talking about general competitive mentality without looking at the game in context. Low tiers aren't extremely bad because they don't have any unwinnable MUs (bad MUs are manageable; even if they're numerous. Not desirable, but not impossible to overcome). I mean, of course if you're solely trying to win, it's not desirable to choose a weaker tool, but that doesn't mean that tool is trash; just that the other tools are simply better.

 

[Locke 06]

****...
He destroyed komo. Absolutely beautiful setups

Except he didn't? It was extremely close at the end, and his only kills were falling out of rage cross slash, pointblank footstool MB punishes, and a item MB>BAir on the smashville platform. Not your typical everyday kills.

 

[Nu~]

Except he didn't? It was extremely close at the end, and his only kills were falling out of rage cross slash, pointblank footstool MB punishes, and a item MB>BAir on the smashville platform. Not your typical everyday kills.

The first match is what I was referring to specifically. The second was more close I agree.
Point blank footstool punishes with metal blade (not exactly easy to pull off in a high level match) and item toss to Bair on the ledge were both well executed kills.

 

[KamikazePotato]

Let's remember Smash Bros franchise is not the most balanced one around, and high tiers are the minimum a players usually needs to achieve something great at the scene.

I disagree with this for several reasons:

1. Even Melee, which is a game that has been obsessively played for 15 years, still sees up-and-comers every now and then that push a 'bad' characeter to the limit and place in Top 8s. Good example would be Amsa, who single-handedly forced Yoshi to rise up the tier list.
2. That's in Melee, which is a much less balanced game than Smash 4. I've played a decent number of fighting games, and at the moment Smash 4 is one of the more balanced ones I've seen. Certainly the most balanced game in the series by far.

In Smash 4, a mid tier could absolutely win a major tournament. Is it unlikely? Yeah, but still far more in the realm of possibility than in other SSB games or even other fighting games.

 

[Jams.]

Just random musing so feel free to skip this, but I wish the official tier list was more relevant. I feel like it would help focus discussion instead of sticking singular characters into the aether that is high tier, mid tier, low tier, etc. I enjoyed the Brawl tier list thread when people would argue for small and specific changes to character rankings, though I suppose the metagame hasn't stabilized enough yet where we could really make those discussions meaningful. Maybe next tier list now that there won't be more DLC, or further into the future.

Locke 06 I was looking at the NWM bracket and saw you beat Big D. What characters did you guys play and how did the set go if you don't mind me asking? As an aside, BC as a whole kind of got wrecked at that event. QQ

 

[Locke 06]

Just random musing so feel free to skip this, but I wish the official tier list was more relevant. I feel like it would help focus discussion instead of sticking singular characters into the aether that is high tier, mid tier, low tier, etc. I enjoyed the Brawl tier list thread when people would argue for small and specific changes to character rankings, though I suppose the metagame hasn't stabilized enough yet where we could really make those discussions meaningful. Maybe next tier list now that there won't be more DLC, or further into the future.

Locke 06 I was looking at the NWM bracket and saw you beat Big D. What characters did you guys play and how did the set go if you don't mind me asking? As an aside, BC as a whole kind of got wrecked at that event. QQ

A lot of BC's strongest had to play each other, which was too bad, but just what happened as a result of pools. Shinkou, Konga, Magister, and I were on fire though. It was a fun tournament.

We played Mega v Falcon. He should have won game 1. We were both at kill% and I read a roll but was too slow to punish with usmash, he shielded it, but dropped shield and got hit by the final bit. He then went rage mode and up air'd me for about 200% total, because MegaMan loses to up airs. In my analysis, I was looking too much for dash grab and he stubbornly kept dash attacking even though on shield it's a utilt. And then we played a clean game 3 where I tried to avoid the dash grab/dash attack game altogether. That ended in him going for a Big D Falcon fsmash read that I jumped over and utilted.

Falcon v Mega matchup is a fun one.

Captain L v Konga was the match to watch though, lol.

Since this thread mostly cares about big names, Magister played villager the entire set vs big D.

And Justice's Ike is disgusting. >.> (my Mega is 0-8 game count against him atm.)

 

[ぱみゅ]

Peep the number of 0-deaths

If you wanted to point the number is 0, let me tell you: actual 0TD with Bayonetta are now way too rare in top level play: players know not to fullhop into her divekicks, are aware when is risky to be on a platform, keep themselves grounded, and are prepared for Heel Slide reads.

Plus, Megaman has a strong projectile game, and Bayonetta isn't particularly good against projectiles.

 

[ArnoldPalmer]

I disagree with this for several reasons:

1. Even Melee, which is a game that has been obsessively played for 15 years, still sees up-and-comers every now and then that push a 'bad' characeter to the limit and place in Top 8s. Good example would be Amsa, who single-handedly forced Yoshi to rise up the tier list.
2. That's in Melee, which is a much less balanced game than Smash 4. I've played a decent number of fighting games, and at the moment Smash 4 is one of the more balanced ones I've seen. Certainly the most balanced game in the series by far.

In Smash 4, a mid tier could absolutely win a major tournament. Is it unlikely? Yeah, but still far more in the realm of possibility than in other SSB games or even other fighting games.

i sorta disagree with this, smash 64 was pretty damn balanced. Isai constantly takes mid tiers into majors and does extremely well with them. Jigglypuff was and is a mid tier, yet he beat the best Kirby at the time (even though that game took forever by 64 standards). yes he was the best player but its still something

 

[Krysco]

Since the whole low/bottom tier isn't unplayable thing is being discussed, here's a question. Compared to previous entries in the series what power level are the top tiers and bottom tiers at? What I mean is the generally agreed on top 4. Are they the return of ? Quite obviously not. How about ? I'd say prepatch Sheik was like that given her lack of negative mus and only having even or positive. Not sure what the mu spread is currently deemed for those 4 other than Diddy losing to Luigi and someone else I think.

Likewise, the bottom tier which I'll just list as . I don't want to cause a ****storm of which character is indeed the worst but those 3 are generally agreed upon to be bad relative to the other 55 characters they're competing with. But in relation to previous games, where are they? level? Probably not.

It's true that in previous Smash games, the low and bottom tiers were quite worthless at top level play. In this game, that isn't quite the case but for a lot of people, Smash in the only fighting game series they've played and they only have the tier lists of the previous games to go off of since they'd understand them.

I can immediately see a problem with this idea though given that a character like was only high/high mid and yet destroyed a bunch of characters including those not far behind like . I recall people mentioning that would be top/high tier in this game (note that that's the Brawl head, hence Brawl Luigi) but if such a thing is possible then perhaps it'll make the whole 'who is bottom tier' thing easier.

TL;DR in relation to previous Smash games, how powerful is the top tier and how weak is the bottom tier? With strongest we've ever seen being and worst being...take your pick

 

[san.]

A lot of BC's strongest had to play each other, which was too bad, but just what happened as a result of pools. Shinkou, Konga, Magister, and I were on fire though. It was a fun tournament.

We played Mega v Falcon. He should have won game 1. We were both at kill% and I read a roll but was too slow to punish with usmash, he shielded it, but dropped shield and got hit by the final bit. He then went rage mode and up air'd me for about 200% total, because MegaMan loses to up airs. In my analysis, I was looking too much for dash grab and he stubbornly kept dash attacking even though on shield it's a utilt. And then we played a clean game 3 where I tried to avoid the dash grab/dash attack game altogether. That ended in him going for a Big D Falcon fsmash read that I jumped over and utilted.

Falcon v Mega matchup is a fun one.

Captain L v Konga was the match to watch though, lol.

Since this thread mostly cares about big names, Magister played villager the entire set vs big D.

And Justice's Ike is disgusting. >.> (my Mega is 0-8 game count against him atm.)

Interesting, first time hearing about Justice. I thought only Stark and Probeans were over there.

Looking at top 8, is this correct?
1. CACAW|Cacogen
2. Magister
3. Justice
4. Konga WA
5. CACAW|Viviff T. Great
5. Captain L
7. DtD|Locke
7. CACAW|BigD

 

[Yikarur]

Yikarur , you play Mii Brawler + Yoshi right?

What MUs do you prefer Brawler in?

Brawler and Yoshis MUs are pretty similar. I use Yoshi mainly but If I feel off from a mental perspective I switch to Brawler to cool down a bit. You have to be really on-point with Yoshi on top level and sometimes my mind just isn't in the mood to make good Yoshi play. I switch to Brawler for that times.
I strictly prefer Brawler for the Diddy MU, because Yoshi vs. Diddy is really really bad and Brawler vs. Diddy is even or -1 for Brawler, which is fine.
Oh and mirror matches. I always play the mirror match if I face another Brawler, because the Brawler mirror match is the most fun MU in this game for me

 

[Locke 06]

Interesting, first time hearing about Justice. I thought only Stark and Probeans were over there.

Looking at top 8, is this correct?
1. CACAW|Cacogen
2. Magister
3. Justice
4. Konga
5. CACAW|Viviff T. Great
5. Captain L
7. DtD|Locke
7. CACAW|BigD

Justice's reaction time is stupid. Even he's surprised sometimes by how good it is. He's from Oregon and doesn't go to a whole lot, but is unanimously "Oregon's best player." (They're having a bunch of drama stuff with their PR on Facebook, it's entertaining to say the least). I've never heard of Stark and Probeans...

I didn't really watch the bottom half of top-8 so I can't confirm characters, but those are everyone's "mains" (Viviff known more for his Mario though). [But yes, he played Bowser vs Konga]

I only played Cloud for game 3 against Justice, but yes, I guess he'd be put there.
BigD could have tried vs Magister or any one of his 40 other characters, but I think you're right in assuming he went all Dedede.

 

[Jehtt]

Interesting, first time hearing about Justice. I thought only Stark and Probeans were over there.

Stark and Probeans are both from NorCal.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Where's yoshi nowadays?

 

[Blobface]

Honestly, bottom tier vs low tier is a technicality at this point. There's only a bottom tier because there has to be a bottom tier. I struggle to think of how even Jiggs is so massively worse than other low tiers to warrant an entirely separate tier.

 

[Asdioh]

ESAM went over options to deal with Cloud ledge snapping with Clamhazzard from above... Just perfect shield and attack with something fast. He says you need to have a move f5 or faster (Pit Dsmash lol) but I was thinking you could just angle the shield up and get an extra frame or two.

You can only powershield on frames 1-3 of shielding, so I don't think it's even possible... maybe if tap jump is off?

This is pretty neat though. It makes sense when you think about it, since we should know by now that powershielding something removes shield drop lag, but most of us probably didn't think there was time to sneak an attack out before Cloud grabbed the ledge.

 

[BananaBake]

You can only powershield on frames 1-3 of shielding, so I don't think it's even possible... maybe if tap jump is off?

This is pretty neat though. It makes sense when you think about it, since we should know by now that powershielding something removes shield drop lag, but most of us probably didn't think there was time to sneak an attack out before Cloud grabbed the ledge.

Is it worth the risk trying to contest it with an aerial or nah? Something like a disjoint?

 

[ARISTOS]

You can only powershield on frames 1-3 of shielding, so I don't think it's even possible... maybe if tap jump is off?

This is pretty neat though. It makes sense when you think about it, since we should know by now that powershielding something removes shield drop lag, but most of us probably didn't think there was time to sneak an attack out before Cloud grabbed the ledge.

It's pretty sweet because most characters can jab out, most of the slower jabs can counter ().

are the characters that I don't believe fit either of the two traits above. Nevertheless, all except ,, and maybe have an option to beat it otherwise.

 

[dakotaisgreat]

I'm all for praising this game, and I agree its a lot more balanced then other games I've played, but you guys are taking it way too far when you say characters that are bottom tier are not unplayable garbage.

If you do anything with bottom tier characters like Mii Swordfighter and Zelda you either need to be a top tier player like Trela or Nairo, be at a tournament that's completely free, or you can be like Serynder, who is known for taking Jigglypuff to her limits, but is still never going to do anything meaningful using that character. (No disrespect to Serynder, but I'm sure he is 100% aware he is purposefully handicapping the **** out of himself and he knows it. Of course you can still be a fantastic player choosing to use a **** character)

Mid tiers? Yes, you can do fine with a meh character like Olimar. Low tiers? Eh, you can do some things with Roy for sure if you're skilled, but bottom tier exists for a reason. If you solo Zelda through a tournament and win, everyone there sucked. At some point, skill can only do so much for you. If ZeRo started entering tournaments playing Dedede only he would win a lot less, a looooot less.

 

[ARGHETH]

I'm all for praising this game, and I agree its a lot more balanced then other games I've played, but you guys are taking it way too far when you say characters that are bottom tier are not unplayable garbage.

If you do anything with bottom tier characters like Mii Swordfighter and Zelda you either need to be a top tier player like Trela or Nairo, be at a tournament that's completely free, or you can be like Serynder, who is known for taking Jigglypuff to her limits, but is still never going to do anything meaningful using that character. (No disrespect to Serynder, but I'm sure he is 100% aware he is purposefully handicapping the **** out of himself and he knows it. Of course you can still be a fantastic player choosing to use a **** character)

Mid tiers? Yes, you can do fine with a meh character like Olimar. Low tiers? Eh, you can do some things with Roy for sure if you're skilled, but bottom tier exists for a reason. If you solo Zelda through a tournament and win, everyone there sucked. At some point, skill can only do so much for you. If ZeRo started entering tournaments playing Dedede only he would win a lot less, a looooot less.

There's a big difference between not being "unplayable garbage" and getting, say, top 8 at tournaments. What we're arguing is that the bottom tier in this game isn't "unplayable garbage" in the sense that you can get mildly respectable placings with them and their MUs overall aren't too terrible. They won't make much noise outside of the local level aside from a few dedicated mains, but they're still able to do kind of well.

(Also, of course ZeRo would do a lot worse if he played DDD; that's going from the top all the way to the bottom. It's like saying if M2K played Pichu, he'd do a lot worse)

 

[Blobface]

It's pretty sweet because most characters can jab out, most of the slower jabs can counter ().

are the characters that I don't believe fit either of the two traits above. Nevertheless, all except ,, and maybe have an option to beat it otherwise.

I'm pretty sure Ganon's F-air and B-air will both hit Cloud cleanly out of this, and he can probably even U-air it from below due to intangibility. I'll have to test it later.

Edit: On that note D3 can definitely beat it out with his big hammer.

 

[KamikazePotato]

Zelda isn't even close to being a bottom tier character (if she ever was) since the buffs.

 

[LancerStaff]

You can only powershield on frames 1-3 of shielding, so I don't think it's even possible... maybe if tap jump is off?

This is pretty neat though. It makes sense when you think about it, since we should know by now that powershielding something removes shield drop lag, but most of us probably didn't think there was time to sneak an attack out before Cloud grabbed the ledge.

Hold a direction before shielding and it'll be angled when it comes out. Don't you need to use a smash input to jump with tap jump anyway?

Zelda isn't even close to being a bottom tier character (if she ever was) since the buffs.

I've been hearing this for a while now but I really don't understand why... Ftilt is faster but still f10. Uair is bigger and more powerful (iirc) but still not a true combo at kill percents. She still doesn't have much of anything as far as I can tell... Like, legit question, who loses to Zelda?

 

[ArnoldPalmer]

Is it worth the risk trying to contest it with an aerial or nah? Something like a disjoint?

I would assume Ike's bair and fair both knock him out of it, fair would be more of a read though considering its startu

 

[ARISTOS]

I'm pretty sure Ganon's F-air and B-air will both hit Cloud cleanly out of this, and he can probably even U-air it from below due to intangibility. I'll have to test it later.

Edit: On that note D3 can definitely beat it out with his big hammer.

Wasn't sure if D3 could outspace the move, I wasn't sure about the disjoint

 

[Djent]

It's hard to say how well ZeRo (or any other top player) would do if he played a bottom tier. Playing good characters helps you get further in bracket, which in turn accelerates the learning process as you face off against more and better players. Even if someone made the switch, it wouldn't be comparable to someone who had always played bottom tier because (s)he'd be coming in with a ton of experience from top 8s and whatnot. A large part of "ease of use" is "rate of improvement," which is something that low- and bottom-tiers especially struggle with as a function of their other limitations.

Not the same game, but still relevant: there's a reason why Axe used to play so much Falco. It's wasn't just to cover bad matchups (his Pika does fine solo), it was part of a scaffolding process that gave him strong foundations to support an otherwise shaky character choice. IIRC Axe (or someone who studied his style carefully) actually talked about this at one point.

 

[ArnoldPalmer]

There is another question though, what exactly defines a bottom tier? What if a character has a lot of potential but just hasn't been explored enough to have a justifiable position on the tier list?
There are some characters that have a ton of potential, even if they are in "low tier"
Imagine if a player like ZeRo actually played Little Mac in tournament, he would most likely shoot up in the tierlist because people would start to actually realize what the character can do. Same thing that's sort of happening with MM right now


Unpopular opinion: Little Mac has the potential to be a high tier

Yes he has a terrible airgame, but its not entirely garbage. I feel like his aerials are sort of like Roy's sourspots in terms of utility, he does have some good setups but they're unsafe to just throw out.
His grounded game however is quite possibly the best. Overall the best grounded frame data, godlike mobility, only "bad" thing is his dash to shield.

 

[Yonder]

.
BigD could have tried vs Magister or any one of his 40 other characters, but I think you're right in assuming he went all Dedede.

Ain't that the truth...last local I went to with him,he was playing with random the whole tourney. His real mains are DDD, Mario, and Falcon if i had to say 3 though.

There are some characters that have a ton of potential, even if they are in "low tier"
Imagine if ZeRo actually played Little Mac in tournament, he would most likely shoot up in the tierlist


Unpopular opinion: Little Mac has the potential to be a high tier

Yes he has a terrible airgame, but its not entirely garbage. I feel like his aerials are sort of like Roy's sourspots in terms of utility, he does have some good setups but they're unsafe to just throw out.
His grounded game however is quite possibly the best. Overall the best grounded frame data, godlike mobility, only "bad" thing is his dash to shield.

You didn't mention his recovery. Obviously worst in game and may not even warrent mentioning as it is an assumably large weakness on all accounts. But it's actually SO bad it always deserves the note when listing weaknesses. This character will never be high tier with his recovery. He doesn't have the air speed or vertical recovery like Cloud either to not be gimped. As people play more and more lame, he will get more walled out. He can be counterpicked harder than anyone else in the game. Oh they picked Duck Hunt as a counterpick? You might as well no contest and go to game 3. Granted he does well on FD and benefits from For Glory being FD only, other projectile characters I feel can abuse it even more. Mac does have nice techs and options out of a Perfect shield though. He could be lower mid. But not much more.

 

[BananaBake]

There is another question though, what exactly defines a bottom tier? What if a character has a lot of potential but just hasn't been explored enough to have a justifiable position on the tier list?
There are some characters that have a ton of potential, even if they are in "low tier"
Imagine if a player like ZeRo actually played Little Mac in tournament, he would most likely shoot up in the tierlist because people would start to actually realize what the character can do. Same thing that's sort of happening with MM right now


Unpopular opinion: Little Mac has the potential to be a high tier

Yes he has a terrible airgame, but its not entirely garbage. I feel like his aerials are sort of like Roy's sourspots in terms of utility, he does have some good setups but they're unsafe to just throw out.
His grounded game however is quite possibly the best. Overall the best grounded frame data, godlike mobility, only "bad" thing is his dash to shield.

have you heard of Sol?