Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[FullMoon]

I just spent a long time thinking Close Combat was a Lucario custom and only now I remembered that it's one of Ike's side-specials.

 

[Dinoman96]

You underestimate how awful people outside the community are at this game. I have seen some ****.

With all due respect, I don't think many people inside the community are good at this game, lol.

 

[Mr. Johan]

I'll always have a soft spot for Thunder+ after I got a hepta-kill with Thoron+ in 8P Smash once, but you're going to have to explain that one a bit more.

Maybe I'm just biased, lol. Speed Thunder's the overall better option, but KOing Bayonetta at 45 from sniping her landing spot is still a nice thing to do.

Floaty Star Bit too now that I see it, since it's Shooting Star Bit everyone complains about. (Rosalina getting a long range projectile is apparently cancer incarnate to some people.)

Cloud can never mix up his recovery with this move. He's forced to go up which Rosalina can fight and kick him back off, throw another FSB, and then sit and watch.

I'm also drawing a complete blank on what Close Combat is, which is mildly embarrassing.

Ike's Side B that lets him bowl through projectiles and opponents. Good for Bullet Climax. He also has Unyeilding Blade for quick Super Armor bailouts from things like Ryu locks potentially.

Cloud would absolutely hate that Tempest custom lol.

 

[Nobie]

I think it's pretty clear that the developers don't WANT Falco to use lasers to approach, and only marginally to force approaches (people will get in range of where the low hit stun on lasers lets them try to punish you). If anything, it seems like the main purpose of Falco's lasers is as a small combo ender, something to tack on an extra 2% when the opponent falls too far away for any other followup.

I mean, I think there's a reason that Falco is allowed to repeatedly fire his lasers at a fairly decent rate, but then takes forever to put his gun back in its holster.

Yeah, it means Falco lacks mobility.

Speaking of Falco forcing approaches, I think it's important to note that Falco has the fastest-activating Reflector in the game (Frame 1), that stays active for a ton of frames, and is itself an attack. It seems designed to give him an edge over other projectile users.

 

[Ninety]

Maybe I'm just biased, lol. Speed Thunder's the overall better option, but KOing Bayonetta at 45 from sniping her landing spot is still a nice thing to do.



Cloud can never mix up his recovery with this move. He's forced to go up which Rosalina can fight and kick him back off, throw another FSB, and then sit and watch.



Ike's Side B that lets him bowl through projectiles and opponents. Good for Bullet Climax. He also has Unyeilding Blade for quick Super Armor bailouts from things like Ryu locks potentially.

Cloud would absolutely hate that Tempest custom lol.

Maybe it's just me, but I can't stand Speed Thunder. It's good for poking with Thunder and Elthunder, but you pretty much completely give up any usefulness from Arcthunder and Thoron (Speed Arc is too fast to get a followup). At least with Thunder+ you get that sexy 15% Elthunder with barely any change in charge time. Thoron+ is Warlock Punch levels of practical, but it's hilarious.

 

[sedrf]

Speaking of customs ,how would customs rank on the echelon of character tiers.

 

[LancerStaff]

If you wanted to give Falco good lasers without them being overbearing, buff everything but axe the rapid-fire. (Fox conveniently has a custom just like this.) Either that or add in some mechanic where you can only shoot two or three at a time or every couple lasers one of Fox's gets fired out.

 

[C0rvus]

I mean, if we rated customs Palutena on the regular tier list, she'd rise quite a bit I would think, but that's not a useful metric at all. It won't happen so there isn't a point in thinking about it. In a customs-on tier list, many top/high tiers get better regardless:
Thunder Wave, Heavy Skull Bash are kill options on a character that would love some more.
Gets some gimmicky stuff that can improve his kill power as well.
Luma Warp kill setups, full screen projectile. No thanks.
Twisting Fox kill setups, blaster options, recovery options. Pretty good for Fox.
To name a few. And then there are characters who level wayyyyy up with custom moves () and those who would like them available () and you have a very different metagame. Frankly, I think custom Palutena is very good. But I can't even begin to worry about exactly how good she is, when I have a hard enough time keeping up with the regular metagame.

 

[Yikarur]

Can we keep custom discussions in the appropriate thread please?

 

[C0rvus]

I'm all for it, feel free to move or delete my useless post, mods.

With summer quickly approaching, I am interested in seeing where the meta goes. The representation of so many characters is great, but I am not sure if results at majors will change too much. I suppose the question I'm pondering is whether or not the game has room for new players to make a mark. We always refer to certain characters needing high or top level representation. If that falls to the current crop, it may never happen.

You guys think we could see some new players popping up and taking names, or is it too late for that? Can some characters without and rep be redeemed, without more patches?

I find myself thinking about this more and more as the summer approaches, since as a player I am hungry for improvement, and I really want to break out soon. Can I get there? Should I bother striving that high?

 

[Pancracio17]

i think hidden talent is very possible, especially since this game has a wifi community. that olimar that got 2nd was a wifi warrior, right?

 

[Das Koopa]

TLDW:

Spoiler

: ESAM
: Draquaza
: Motsunabe
: Seyrender (HM to RDR7)
: iStudying
: 8BitMan (HM to Holy Nightmare)
: Fow (HM to Shaky)
: Fatality (ZeRo believes himself to be the best Falcon but acknowledges players like Tearbear and Fatality have actual results.)
: Ranai

: Angbad (HM to Shuton and Myran)

 

[Pancracio17]

https://twitter.com/_DabuzSensei/status/724673995233189888
dabuz uploaded his matchup based tier list (READ DESCRIPTIONS)

im surprised about the mew2 placement but i kinda have to agree, he doesnt get destroyed as hard as the lower tier chars with his bad MUs

 

[TheGoodGuava]

TLDW:

Spoiler

: ESAM
: Draquaza
: Motsunabe
: Seyrender (HM to RDR7)
: iStudying
: 8BitMan (HM to Holy Nightmare)
: Fow (HM to Shaky)
: Fatality (ZeRo believes himself to be the best Falcon but acknowledges players like Tearbear and Fatality have actual results.)
: Ranai

: Angbad (HM to Shuton and Myran)

the fatality **** made me laugh, but yeah its probably true

https://twitter.com/_DabuzSensei/status/724673995233189888
dabuz uploaded his matchup based tier list (READ DESCRIPTIONS)

Who does Corrin or Villager really need a secondaries for if you don't mind me asking? I've been considering both of them and don't know much about the character other than basic strings/setups

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I like the approach dabuz chooses. As always a few things are debatable - Pac-Man, Greninja, Yoshi and Lucas could probably be bumped up a tier each - but I don't see anything blatantly wrong on this list otherwise. It's also very practical and gives people a much better idea on how the metagame looks than the SWF tierlist does.

 

[PK Gaming]

https://twitter.com/_DabuzSensei/status/724673995233189888
dabuz uploaded his matchup based tier list (READ DESCRIPTIONS)

im surprised about the mew2 placement but i kinda have to agree, he doesnt get destroyed as hard as the lower tier chars with his bad MUs

Visual representation for the lazy people

 

[FullMoon]

I can't really say I agree with Luigi's placement in Dabuz's list. Greninja, Ike and Marth make me raise an eyebrow as well.

 

[C0rvus]

the fatality **** made me laugh, but yeah its probably true


Who does Corrin or Villager really need a secondaries for if you don't mind me asking? I've been considering both of them and don't know much about the character other than basic strings/setups

Villager struggles versus Cloud and Bayonetta iirc, Rosa is a pain, and I hear swords in general give him a hard time. Corrin's MU spread is a bit underdeveloped atm but I think he loses to ZSS, Sheik, Cloud, Bayonetta, Rosalina, Diddy, maybe Pikachu.These are mostly -1's though so it's w/e.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Ryu needs a secondary? Interesting line of thought.

Smooth Criminal

 

[FullMoon]

Also who the hell counterpicks someone with Peach? The character is awkward enough as a main lol

 

[Dabuz]

A bit of extra thoughts because I'm bored and I know people will ask.

Bayo: TBH I wanted to put in an extra tier for her but can't justify it.

Sonic: Almost bumped down because of the Cloud matchup in theory, but I haven't seen results of this matchup at top level to indicate it as being awful for sonic. I also previously thought fox was pretty bad for him, but Larry vs. 6WX changed my mind.

Mewtwo: Almost put into the Pikachu tier and I believe his matchup spread somewhere worse than the top of top but better than the top of high, closer to the top section. Struggles against Diddy and Cloud according to Aba.

Rosalina: Would easily be top 5 if Metaknight didn't exist, her only other losing matchups are cloud (not as bad as previously thought, requires a unique gameplan to fight similar to pre-patch ZSS) and Pikachu (slowly becoming even but more importantly losing relevance in the meta quickly)

ZSS: Diddy should be bad for her in theory, it was already pretty bad before the nerfs, Mr.r vs. Mars was destruction and even Mr.r vs. Nairo pre patch looked very hard for ZSS, I think that the nerfs hurt ZSS a lot more than Sheik in the MU.

Mario: Rosalina is a problem for him, plain and simple.

Ryu: Probably should be lower than a lot of characters in his tier so that's an oversight in my list, has really bad results in top level play and most people who used him dropped him for good reasons.

Marth: On the rise lately, I think he's actually reeeeeeally good now and will only get better.

Ike: Ryuga and Ryo both have a secondary corrin for some of Ike's matchups and that says a lot to me

Greninja: Almost bumped up but I couldn't justify putting him in the same tier as villager and pikachu, especially considering the greninja with the best results (Istudying) doesn't have consistent results against top tier or even high tier players AFAIK. (Acknowledge this could be lack of OOC knowledge)

Lucas, Pacman, Yoshi: All fit comfortably into where I placed them after considering results against common characters, with Lucas the only character who I think will risa in future lists.

Bottom tier should be reversed so that Jiggz is last.

DK: Almost bumped up to the top of his tier because he is notably effective vs. some characters like mario and sheik compared to how easy he is to play, but his bad MUs are reeeeeally bad. (Rosa, Sonic, Diddy, ect.)

Lucario: Waiting to see Motsonube or some top foreign lucario to come to the states and do work since the character is secretly busted IMO but people who play him don't travel OOC.

Peach: Not exactly a counterpick character but only fits into that general area in terms of being "alright"

Luigi: Concon is super inconsistent but at the same time a lot of his inconsistency is just him as a player not knowing matchups or having really off days, a bit unempirical but my point is that a consistent player using him would show us better results.

 

[C0rvus]

I think my biggest issue is with Fox. He definitely has a few counterpicks/-1 MUs.[ come to mind] I'd bump him down a tier. He's definitely on a similar power level to those top characters, though.

Other than that, I like this list. Much more useful than a regular tier list.

 

[Y2Kay]

That greninja placement is outdated IMO.

The only match ups where greninja mains even really need to consider a secondary is or , and those are not really in the realm of "atrocious" as Dabuz defines it.The only other losing matchups he has are debatabley . Those could easily be considered as even as it is 45:55. Greninja's match up spread is easily one of the best attributes he has.

C'mon guys, BEAST VI wasn't that long ago.

I have no quarrels with 's, 's, or 's placement, however.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Greninja: Almost bumped up but I couldn't justify putting him in the same tier as villager and pikachu, especially considering the greninja with the best results (Istudying) doesn't have consistent results against top tier or even high tier players AFAIK. (Acknowledge this could be lack of OOC knowledge)

Right now he doesn't have significant winning records against any high or top level players to my knowledge.

 

[FullMoon]

Granted I don't think iStudying has played many top players more than once outside of Mr.R and I think they have yet to play each other since the patch dropped. Would be a great way of gauging just how much the MU changed.

 

[Dabuz]

That greninja placement is outdated IMO.
The only match ups where greninja mains even really need to consider a secondary is or , and those are not really in the realm of "atrocious" as Dabuz defines it.The only other losing matchups he has are debatabley . Thoes could easily be considered as even as it is 45:55. Greninja's match up spread is easily one of the best attributes he has.

C'mon guys, BEAST VI wasn't that long ago.

In theory, but I haven't seen that matchup spread put into practice well outside of beating MVD and Esam (both of which could easily be attributed to lack of matchup knowledge and aren't indicative of a pattern)

 

[Ulevo]

A bit of extra thoughts because I'm bored and I know people will ask.

Bayo: TBH I wanted to put in an extra tier for her but can't justify it.

Sonic: Almost bumped down because of the Cloud matchup in theory, but I haven't seen results of this matchup at top level to indicate it as being awful for sonic. I also previously thought fox was pretty bad for him, but Larry vs. 6WX changed my mind.

Mewtwo: Almost put into the Pikachu tier and I believe his matchup spread somewhere worse than the top of top but better than the top of high, closer to the top section. Struggles against Diddy and Cloud according to Aba.

Rosalina: Would easily be top 5 if Metaknight didn't exist, her only other losing matchups are cloud (not as bad as previously thought, requires a unique gameplan to fight similar to pre-patch ZSS) and Pikachu (slowly becoming even but more importantly losing relevance in the meta quickly)

ZSS: Diddy should be bad for her in theory, it was already pretty bad before the nerfs, Mr.r vs. Mars was destruction and even Mr.r vs. Nairo pre patch looked very hard for ZSS, I think that the nerfs hurt ZSS a lot more than Sheik in the MU.

Mario: Rosalina is a problem for him, plain and simple.

Ryu: Probably should be lower than a lot of characters in his tier so that's an oversight in my list, has really bad results in top level play and most people who used him dropped him for good reasons.

Marth: On the rise lately, I think he's actually reeeeeeally good now and will only get better.

Ike: Ryuga and Ryo both have a secondary corrin for some of Ike's matchups and that says a lot to me

Greninja: Almost bumped up but I couldn't justify putting him in the same tier as villager and pikachu, especially considering the greninja with the best results (Istudying) doesn't have consistent results against top tier or even high tier players AFAIK. (Acknowledge this could be lack of OOC knowledge)

Lucas, Pacman, Yoshi: All fit comfortably into where I placed them after considering results against common characters, with Lucas the only character who I think will risa in future lists.

Bottom tier should be reversed so that Jiggz is last.

DK: Almost bumped up to the top of his tier because he is notably effective vs. some characters like mario and sheik compared to how easy he is to play, but his bad MUs are reeeeeally bad. (Rosa, Sonic, Diddy, ect.)

Lucario: Waiting to see Motsonube or some top foreign lucario to come to the states and do work since the character is secretly busted IMO but people who play him don't travel OOC.

Peach: Not exactly a counterpick character but only fits into that general area in terms of being "alright"

Luigi: Concon is super inconsistent but at the same time a lot of his inconsistency is just him as a player not knowing matchups or having really off days, a bit unempirical but my point is that a consistent player using him would show us better results.

Who do you perceive to be Meta Knight's -1's, and how many -1's did you think was appropriate to allocate characters to that respective tier?

 

[Dabuz]

I think my biggest issue is with Fox. He definitely has a few counterpicks/-1 MUs.[ come to mind] I'd bump him down a tier. He's definitely on a similar power level to those top characters, though.

Other than that, I like this list. Much more useful than a regular tier list.

Results definitely don't show he loses to Rosa (bias but w/e), Sheik vs. Fox after the patch looks so much more manageable when I see Larry beat void. Can't say I know Fox well but the results from Larry's Fox are some of smash 4's most consistent and favorable in every matchup at top level play among the entire lifespan of the game period.

 

[Amadeus9]

In theory, but I haven't seen that matchup spread put into practice well outside of beating MVD and Esam (both of which could easily be attributed to lack of matchup knowledge and aren't indicative of a pattern)

Did you post which mus are bad for each character somewhere? I want to scrutinize more fully (mostly for mk tho)

 

[Fatmanonice]

With all due respect, I don't think many people inside the community are good at this game, lol.

This. This is why I don't like it when people dump on For Glory players. Chances are, you're not that great either, and if you don't even go to local tournaments, you can kindly STFU instead of bashing random people who just play these modes for fun. Nobody cares about your combo videos where you beat 9 year olds who think Bowser Bomb is the best move in the game. The most popular people who stream For Glory like Alpharad, Lythero, Acestarthe3rd, and StylesX2 don't do well in tournaments and I don't think a lot of their fans realize this. It's the equivalent of high school baseball players bragging about being able to trash tee ball players, knowing full well if they went up against MLB players, they'd get their *** handed to them in a popcorn bucket, drizzled with extra butter and the salt of their tears. Case in point, stay humble and try to help instead of hurt the people who are actually trying to get better.

 

[Dabuz]

Who do you perceive to be Meta Knight's -1's, and how many -1's did you think was appropriate to allocate characters to that respective tier?

Diddy, Sheik, Bayo, Mario, Cloud off the top of my head.

No specific number

 

[Amadeus9]

Diddy, Sheik, Bayo, Mario, Cloud off the top of my head.

No specific number

This is pretty in line with my thoughts. Carry on, you're approved

 

[Kofu]

i think hidden talent is very possible, especially since this game has a wifi community. that olimar that got 2nd was a wifi warrior, right?

Definitely. I wasn't a part of the Brawl community when the game was released but I believe that Ally, HolyNightmare, and the presently germane Dabuz got their start on Wi-Fi. 8Bitman did too IIRC.

I really like Dabuz's tier list, especially how the tiers are designated. My biggest qualm is how low Roy is. I really have a hard time seeing how a character that mobile and who is a(n admittedly unusual) sword (=disjoints) could be bottom 3.

 

[Dabuz]

Definitely. I wasn't a part of the Brawl community when the game was released but I believe that Ally, HolyNightmare, and the presently germane Dabuz got their start on Wi-Fi. 8Bitman did too IIRC.

I really like Dabuz's tier list, especially how the tiers are designated. My biggest qualm is how low Roy is. I really have a hard time seeing how a character that mobile and who is a(n admittedly unusual) sword (=disjoints) could be bottom 3.

Take Falcon, give him a sword. Good. Now remove his range, safety on attacks, overall neutral options, and amazing air kill power/ strong 50-50s and ability to get deep for kills. Congrats, you have Roy.

 

[Y2Kay]

In theory, but I haven't seen that matchup spread put into practice well outside of beating MVD and Esam (both of which could easily be attributed to lack of matchup knowledge and aren't indicative of a pattern)

But what results are there to justify putting Marth above him?

 

[FullMoon]

Considering how well Marth has been doing lately, yes.

 

[C0rvus]

But results are there to justify putting Marth above him?

Marth has been doing quite well recently between Mr. E, False, and Pugwest, and they all play in a pretty strong region and did fairly well at majors. So I would say so.

 

[Dabuz]

But results are there to justify putting Marth above him?

Mr.E and Pugwest both do very well in brackets in their region, their combined results + personal bias of playing them both in various matchups definitely justify it.

 

[Tahu Mata]

Take Falcon, give him a sword. Good. Now remove his range, safety on attacks, overall neutral options, and amazing air kill power/ strong 50-50s and ability to get deep for kills. Congrats, you have Roy.

That freaking hurt my soul.

 

[bc1910]

Hey, thanks for the explanations. I can see where you're coming from with everything, I just wanted to go over the Greninja placement.

Greninja: Almost bumped up but I couldn't justify putting him in the same tier as villager and pikachu, especially considering the greninja with the best results (Istudying) doesn't have consistent results against top tier or even high tier players AFAIK. (Acknowledge this could be lack of OOC knowledge)

Whilst I would have agreed with you before the Sheik nerfs, I think the placement is outdated and he should have been bumped up.

I don't see how you can justify putting Marth, the Pits, Lucario, Luigi or probably Falcon in the same tier as Villager either. Pika I think can fit in with those characters, Villager could be bumped up and things would be fine. I don't think the gap between Pika and Greninja is a whole tier and not putting him in the same tier for that reason excludes him from being in the same tier as various characters who he is just as good as. You could comfortably slot Greninja anywhere below Corrin.

In terms of MUs, he doesn't struggle against many common characters. His worst MUs are Sheik and Sonic, both are doable, and everyone else is fine. I won't bore you if you don't want theory but he shouldn't be losing worse than -1 to anyone else, and results actually support this. At stacked tourneys, Sheik, Sonic and Ness are the only characters to have knocked iStudy out of bracket for months. Some hasn't been active but pre-patch he was usually double eliminated by Sheik, or eliminated by Sheik and (often Nietono's) Diddy. Meanwhile Elexaio just won a large regional by beating a Bayo, ZSS and Sheik player. To me this just screams "multiple -1s" and the description of the 3rd tier fits Greninja so much better.

It's rare that I'll bother to defend a low Greninja placement these days (most people are either on board with him being top ~20 or rank him like bottom 15 and know nothing about him) but I don't agree with this one. Greninja doesn't deserve to be in the middle ground and with this being MU based, he definitely deserves to be bumped up. Considering results, the argument is still there; Greninja doesn't appear that much but when he does he tends to do well.

iStudy's lack of "consistent results against top tier players" is a fair point. It's largely due to his location IMO. As he travels more we will hopefully see this improve. Bear in mind he's indisputably top 3 and probably #2 in the Netherlands, if not Europe.