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Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

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Jalil

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It's kinda a 50/50 situation. Does Rosa shield and risk luma gettin hit by pk fire or gravity pull and risk gettin hit by zair? They have similar range and both start from shorthops (not mandatory for pk fire but useful obviously) so she has to be on alert to react pk fire.

I might be wrong but doesn't Lucas have a winning record on Rosa so far? With Taiheita's win over Atelier and now this
 
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Megamang

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Even a pocket Cloud seems like a better choice than a pocket fox, but its not my place to criticize from offstage. It just seems like Luc like's fox's light fastfaller status, doesn't mind the damage racking, and the whole 'safe in shield and he just throws you' thing actively helps him achieve his win condition. Meanwhile, sonic doesn't like Aura Sphere? I guess he racks damage just as much.


Did day ever play a Ryu? That seems like it'd be tough.


Interestingly, Day says Lucario was top 10 and had more potential before the aura sphere change, but still considers him top 15. I'd agree, especially now that shiek has trouble killing but is still a relavent character.

I like Lucario vs Bayonetta, because her lightweight makes aura start murdering her, and AS can punish cross stage and also HSK / divekick (not on shield). but a true, optimal touch of death bayonetta should rekt lucario.


But can bayonetta really be touch of death? I feel like her combos aren't going to get any better. Maybe more consistency and ability to follow DI, or kill for too much of the right DI (like offstage fair kills when someone gets out of divekick) but... I don't see much else happening. She already takes you to t he ceiling and uairs you, what is there to optimize?
 

Emblem Lord

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Shame DJ didnt play Day. I think he coulda won the tourney had he not lost to Manny.

Happy for Luc mains but I wont lie I think that char is nonsense of the highest order and not a real char design.
 
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Asdioh

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Shame DJ didnt play Day. I think he coulda won the tourney had he not lost to Manny.

Happy for Luc mains but I wont lie I think that char is nonsense of the highest order and not a real char design.
How did you feel about the incredible display of Sonic doing Sonic things vs Ryu? Regardless of the battlefield pick, man that character is frustrating. What did Ryu need to do? Spam dtilt? Maybe pivot grab spindash?
 

Charoite

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I am more interested in why the bayos used their secondaries, and it seems any top player that gets bodied by bayo, the next time they play, is the reverse.
 

Y2Kay

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Luc is my old main. I'm super biased but I think his character design is fine. I like it.

Is he honest? Depends on how you define a dishonest character.

I just think people forget how awful he is without aura. Lucario is pretty garbo for like a good chunk of the match, but he literally climbs tiers on the tier list as the match goes on.

He goes from bottom to low mid to SS++ God tier to back to bottom through out a match. It's kinda cool to me, but I get it from an opponent's perspective.

:150:
 

Emblem Lord

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How did you feel about the incredible display of Sonic doing Sonic things vs Ryu? Regardless of the battlefield pick, man that character is frustrating. What did Ryu need to do? Spam dtilt? Maybe pivot grab spindash?
I would need to see the match but generally vs Sonic you want to close the gap slowly and make it so when he tries to spindash he is taking a legit risk.

People love to give Sonic space because it gives them a false sense of security. Thats wrong though.

Close space and make him feel super uncomfortable.

Ryu is not an auto pilot char, but he does have ALOT of set-play answers to Sonic stuff. Rapid tilts and jab beat spin dash. So does pivot grab and Nair. If Sonic hits shield with spin dash, gotta be able to instantly react to w/e his choice was. If he JCed then full jump bair. If he didnt then reverse shoryu OoS.
 

Charoite

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It's seems that :4diddy: has at least an even matchup at worst against :4bayonetta:, the results back that right now.
And i think diddy having better neutral tools compared to bayo could be one the important reason why bayo doesn't like this matchup.

Example is how zinoto played against Tyroy, he really overextended and played smart with diddy fast moves.
 

Emblem Lord

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Luc is my old main. I'm super biased but I think his character design is fine. I like it.

Is he honest? Depends on how you define a dishonest character.

I just think people forget how awful he is without aura. Lucario is pretty garbo for like a good chunk of the match, but he literally climbs tiers on the tier list as the match goes on.

He goes from bottom to low mid to SS++ God tier to back to bottom through out a match. It's kinda cool to me, but I get it from an opponent's perspective.

:150:
**** him.

Love sending Luc mains straight to hell on the wings of the rising dragon fist.
 

Y2Kay

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Abadango apparently lost to a :4greninja: main named " Kuroitsu "

I don't know If I should be happy or sad right now . . . . .

:150:
 

Megamang

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Makes sense, it only takes a few good hits for Greninja to take out m2. Its not a good MU in my opinion, and especially in bo1 the two both glass cannon eachother but greninja is less glass. The weight discrepancy almost makes up for the kill throw power, and gren has lots of other ways to end your stock, basically having confirms until you are in kill throw range.
 

Dre89

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It's seems that :4diddy: has at least an even matchup at worst against :4bayonetta:, the results back that right now.
And i think diddy having better neutral tools compared to bayo could be one the important reason why bayo doesn't like this matchup.

Example is how zinoto played against Tyroy, he really overextended and played smart with diddy fast moves.
I think Diddy loses to Cloud to be honest.

People talk about how Could struggles in neutral against him, but Cloud is literally the best character in the game at dealing with nanas in neutral.

He has massive, safe, long-duration hitboxes, and good hitboxes are the best way to deal with nanas. It's very hard for Diddy to land nanas against smart dair usage (it will catch/destroy a nana thrown at him front-on even though it's a dair).

Cloud kills him so quickly, and is better at gimping Diddy than the other way around. Only thing Diddy has over Cloud is a better disadvantaged state.
 

Megamang

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Yea, I can see Limit Cross Slash being a wall that Diddy has trouble monkey flipping through to get back onstage. And his kill setups are actually pretty meh against heavy characters, especially usmash and uair aren't going to be killing Cloud for a while, and him with rage... will be ending Diddy pretty consistently.

I'd think the aforementioned lack of forward safe pokes would be bad against Diddy though, in terms of making him not throw a banana. I still feel that a Diddy that abuses OOS banana toss to make his shield a big problem for Cloud has an advantage, but that is just my instinct and not something I have seen proven or disproven at any level of play.
 

Aaron1997

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Rain is out going 1-2. I don't think well be seeing his Sheik for much longer
 
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CHIEf

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Lol what did Abadango even do there? I blinked and then saw him charge an upsmash on a confused Lucario.
 

DunnoBro

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Was looking through cloud's frame data to try finding out the proper way to fight him in neutral, came to realize this character is actually essentially bayonetta with just the weakness of a bad recovery.

His frame data and power/damage out/safety actually seems broken.

Ex. His dair, that super safe frame 11 starting 40-frame lasting with all it's disjoints and strength is actually STRONGER than bowser's. (Bowser kills mario from the base of fd at 132% and cloud at 129%) The frame 25 all-or-nothing move that's supposed to make you respect the area directly beneath bowser.

Rosalina has this too with Luma and it's really dumb and imo a waaay bigger issue than her uair since it makes recovering and getting her landings a huge risk/reward skew in her favor.

I'm not the type to just complain about good parts of a character but it's clear the devs thought Cloud's recovery and Luma's mechanics were far more exploitable than they are.
 
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FallofBrawl

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Abadongo lost to Kept's Villager, how does the Villy/Mew2 MU go?

I initially thought it was bad for villager because of Mew2's anti-zoning was just stronger, and kills were much more efficient.
 

Megamang

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Last match I had against a Rosalina, I thought things were going alright. Then, Luma's usmash hit my hand while I was trying to space a retreating greninja fair. Then I died. It was quite an emotional experience, and I wouldn't recommend anyone try it if they are curious.

Rosalina players are getting better and better and using their hitboxes to clank out moves and protect Luma. As DunnoBro said, this makes landing against her incredibly skewed because if things go right, I get a fair on luma for some star damage and if things go wrong I just pretty much begin dying...

Puppet characters are a delicate balance, and I do respect that she is difficult to play. She is perhaps, a little tiny bit too rewarding, but maybe not even. It depends what we want on top of the metagame.

Regardless, she is beatable... she just has chances during the match to end your life.

In some ways though, her recovery is worse than Cloud's. Especially vs characters like Mario and Megaman/Cloud who can cover the ledge consistently with a hitbox, her snap animation reveals her. This does give her a meaningful weakness, even if you can't tell its there when trying to slug thru luma.

I wish when I got them apart, I had a few more seconds to rehit luma before she could call it back. I guess the skilled play would be to predict the callback and hit the Luma in transit, but more often than not the Luma is totally covering itself with a dair or uair hitbox.

Or we could just nerf the I frames on her rolls :3
 

ぱみゅ

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Abadongo lost to Kept's Villager, how does the Villy/Mew2 MU go?

I initially thought it was bad for villager because of Mew2's anti-zoning was just stronger, and kills were much more efficient.
If Ranai taught us anything is that Villager can be played not only as a zoner but as a heavy hitter with meaty aerials.

EDIT: except this guy actually seems to play the zoning strategy.
Really wondering what he had under his sleeve to beat Abadango...
:196:
 
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DunnoBro

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I dunno if it's so much zoning as that mewtwo's ledge snap is inconsistent and villager and dhd will abuse the hell out of that
 
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Aaron1997

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These people are going flip when they see this top 8..

1 :4sonic:
1 :4sheik:
1 :4villager:
1 :4diddy:
1 :4mario:
1 :4olimar:
1 :4duckhunt:
1 :4megaman:
 
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bc1910

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Shame DJ didnt play Day. I think he coulda won the tourney had he not lost to Manny.

Happy for Luc mains but I wont lie I think that char is nonsense of the highest order and not a real char design.
Lucario turns most MUs into coin flips IMO. Sometimes the flips go in his favour.

Fortunately that doesn't happen consistently. No disrespect to Day as I'm sure he's very skilled but Lucario is, by nature, the least consistent character in the game. Which is a good thing, because his design is crap.

Makes sense, it only takes a few good hits for Greninja to take out m2. Its not a good MU in my opinion, and especially in bo1 the two both glass cannon eachother but greninja is less glass. The weight discrepancy almost makes up for the kill throw power, and gren has lots of other ways to end your stock, basically having confirms until you are in kill throw range.
It's even. They both murder each other.

It's a dance of dare that comes down to who can pull the trigger first.
 

Yonder

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These people are going flip when they see this top 8..

1 :4sonic:
1 :4sheik:
1 :4villager:
1 :4diddy:
1 :4mario:
1 :4olimar:
1 :4duckhunt:
1 :4megaman:
That's some nice diversity in terms of different characters, but If you want me to be really nit picky, Duck Hunt there is the only low tier in that top 8. Mega and Olimar are upper mid respectively, the rest are top tiers. Yeah, even maybe Villager is top or top of the high tier, severely underrated.

I'll flip out when I see a top 8 look like this:

Fake out 2016 (700+ entrants)

Top 8:

:4jigglypuff:
:4miigun:
:4ganondorf:
:4falco:
:4feroy:
:4palutena:
:4miibrawl:
:4miisword:

A man can dream, right?


Again I'm being a little nitpicky on the top 8 just because Mario, Sheik, and Diddy are extremely common faces. It's definitely a nice top 8, nothing's perfect. But it shows how well balanced this game is compared to Super Fox bros Melee and Super Mega Knight bros Brawl. Well not to those extremes since like 8-12 are viable in Melee, and idk who in Brawl. But Brawl had dumb infinites and chaingrabs and massive tier gaps (MK vs Ganondorf)), Melee has that tier gap problem too (Fox vs Kirby), the tier gaps between everyone in Smash 4 are still small, unless they widen over the years more. But with 58 characters...it's hard to stagnant the meta with so many options available. When a character is forgotten, they make an Excellent pocket to throw common picks off. And it's great.

Why do I do this to myself at 3 am.
 

Megamang

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I feel like the swords are just great against M2's giant frame, but I guess he is working with disjoints too. I heavily prefer to play it from the greninja side, that is for sure. Feels less delicate, and you have all kinds of opportunities to land u-smash since he s floaty and large. U-smash and u-throw against his light frame makes him question his preference for low ceilings as well, which is really nice to kind of neutralize the effect of stages, although battlefield platforms are a problem for ninja since it makes shadow ball zoning stronger, and hurts his usmash setup and landing trap game.


EDIT Y Yonder

I definitely agree that having an unknown character, or a character who's meta isn't understood in your region is a great way to upset a tournament. We have a lot of examples of this, even a major.

Watching umebera, people clearly didn't know their optimal buttons against this surprisingly aggressive (at least once you were in his space, smashes and tilts were flying out all over the place) Olimar.

We set ourselves up for this with 2 stock bo3. You can die to something before you understand your character's best counterplay, since it definitely can take more than 2 stocks to learn a MU on a new level, and once you lose one game and then lose a stock.... You're pretty much done. And if the person has truly labbed their character a lot, you have them adapting to your counterplay throughout the match, e.g. choosing different options on their 50/50 or trap situations, so you adapt but still die to the same thing.

Its yet another reason kill confirms are so great. And its nice that Ninty is spreading the love a little, I always balked at heavyweights who would grab you, and jack **** would happen. Like really, freakin bowser grabs you it should hurt, a lot.

Snake's dthrow was really cool in Brawl for this, in my opinion, at least before abuses were found. More force tech throws would be a reasonable buff for power characters without blowing them up in FFAs. Imagine if DeDeDe could throw you hard forward onto the ground; It'd really make sense with his trap/gordo game (set up your traps on a grounded opponent, or chuck them offstage and set ledge traps with the poor angle they're thrown) and it would have reasonable counter play, especially if you could tech it.

Now im rambling about heavies and game balance. Clearly we just saw that, even in 'optimize focused' meta's, diversity is well and alive. I think this kind of thing encourages diversity, my switch to MK in my Brawl days was basically solidified by seeing him win everything, each win tearing at my belief in my character.

Watching your character take a big tournament is super exciting. Bittersweet, because you might know the stuff he was doing and feel, had he not shined a spotlight, it could be you!

Big rosters are fun.
 
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bc1910

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With Sonic winning a tournament, now is probably a good time to ask - who is Sonic's worst MU? And, more broadly, who does he actually lose to?

Most of the characters that do or did well against him have been nerfed harder than he has. Are we looking at Cloud and Rosa as his worst MUs?
 

Nekoo

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With Sonic winning a tournament, now is probably a good time to ask - who is Sonic's worst MU? And, more broadly, who does he actually lose to?

Most of the characters that do or did well against him have been nerfed harder than he has. Are we looking at Cloud and Rosa as his worst MUs?
I still think that :4diddy: do good against Sonic with his excellent Neutral game. Blocking his spin dash with Banana and can poke to death his shield with D-tilt if he try to Spin Dash Cancel.

:4mario: Do good against him i guess? Ally do have a positive record against Sonic if i remember correctly.

:4megaman: Look like the Ultimate Answer against Sonic Too. He can Block every approach that Sonic might Attempt

And Even with the Nerf Hammer on her :4sheik: still beat the **** out of him in neutral but will have trouble killing him.

:4cloud: (Yeah. **** the emo :4cloud2:. Classic Cloud 4 the win.) Is an obvious answer too. His disjointed hitbox can hit Sonic in his Spin before it hit him and can get kill early thanks to Limit. But he need to be careful. Because a single F-air String from Sonic near the edge and it's most likely over.
 
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Tizio Random

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Well, I'm not the best person to ask about but from what I saw in various matches Sonic has a lot trouble going through Ike sword, just Ike fair is bigger than all Sonic hitboxes combined. And Eruption does a good job at edgeguarding Sonic.
 

Megamang

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No, if you have the right theory it looks like Ike should win. He is so safe with his disjoint, specifically against what sonic has to offer, does great from grabs, jabs, and random confirms like nair and dtilt. He traps him on the ledge and kills him really really well too. He punishes spindash spring really hard... it just, generally works out for him. I'm no Ike main, but this is what I've seen and heard.

I'd imagine Sonic doesn't like Corrin, though the mobility discrepancy might be enough for Sonic to pull it off.

And yea, Megaman is a great answer to Sonic, especially one who prefers his specials to his normals. Spindash, in any form, gets stopped cold by pellets, and Sonic really has to play a regular character's game against a superb zoner, and its pretty hard for him to get kills. Of course, its pretty close to even, Sonic's attributes are just too good and fsmash at the ledge is a game changer. But it ruins his specials, so if you just wanna throw a sonic off his game plan, lemons are a great solution. Its a major reason I've kept megaman on my roster tbh, because I freaking hate sonic and everything about him.
 

Nekoo

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Well. The Sonic Thread put Vs:4myfriends: as 0 (Even) ,When the result speak otherwise.
 
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