Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Greward]

Bayo vs Bowser is 70-30 at least, probably 80-20 tbh.

And that's not because Bowser is bad either, it's just because Bayo's design completely counters Bowser.

Well that doesn't necessarily mean that he's not the 6th best in the game against Bayo. Lol.
I guess when you play Bayo you look at matchups like "hey this character can kill early maybe he'll upset me lolol sixth worst"

Don't know about DK, but Bowser absolutely can punish her for Divekicking shield, as she is going to inevitably incur landing lag for doing so, and this is where Bowser uses his good dash speed and dash grab to punish her landing. If she resets to the ledge, then Bowser has very good ledge coverage options. People a lot of times screw up against Bayo because her vulnerabilities don't necessarily follow the same rules of other Smash characters.

Nope, he's not. He can't punish upB - divekick away on shield. She just goes too far away, maybe if you are Sonic you get a chance though (and that's why he's thought to be the best against her).

 

[Ninety]

A "no" might have sufficed.

 

[Blobface]

Angbad made an olimar mu list

How does Olimar beat Ganon +2? Of course it's hard for Ganon to get in. It's hard for Ganon to get in in every matchup, but Ganon gets more reward in this matchup for getting in than almost any other. Olimar doesn't have very good escape aerials, is terrible vs Flame Choke, and has an extremely vulnerable recovery.

I'm not saying Neutral doesn't matter in Ganon's matchups or anything, but it's very hard for a character to have more than a +1 advantage if they can't hamper Ganon's reward somehow.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

The fact that you're always at kill percent from an unreactable safe on shield/whiff move should be enough of an indication why it's 70-30 or 80-20.............

 

[Mr. Johan]

How often is Bayonetta getting a frame 7 Dtilt that's larger than most sword Dtilts, where the alternative in avoiding Dtilt is getting potentially hit by SH Fair, Heel Slide, or ABK?

I'd hazard quite often.

 

[Jucchan]

Mr. II's Robin MU Chart

So apparently Robin's bottom tier?
Dath/Raziek's Chart below for reference

 

[Shaya]

I wouldn't inherently say it's larger. I'm sure every sword down tilt would out disjoint it (I hope, unless her feet/legs are intangible, feet/toes are a possibility), it's more so the animation bring her leg around from behind her towards it's max range in under a single frame, and rotates back to a safeish point in under 3 frames + comes with bullet arts to inhibit trying to punish it.

In contrast, Marth/Lucina expose their alternative hand way in front of them during the entirety of the start up, and takes nearly the entire cool down of the move to retract their hands afterwards.

But newcomer DLC is notorious for having animations which are blatantly unfair in this regard - Smash standards of having somewhat natural flowing movements probably died when Sakurai stopped being in charge of every single frame of animation like he claims he was in Brawl.
"Difficult to measure power creep"

It's the reason something like Bayo/Mewtwo being immune to grabs from behind them (did this get patched or did we stop caring about it like we should have?) because brand new models rather than updated Brawl ones didn't have the Sakurai-logic treatment.

tl;dr old characters have exposed hurtboxes in their animations for usually a hyper majority of their duration (20ish frames out of 23 for Marth/Lucina down tilt), Bayo's down tilt has exposure for 4-5 frames out of 26.

In other words "delete implicit whiff punishing options"

 

[Nobie]

Wait, I was just looking at that Angbad Olimar MU list, and why in the world is Meta Knight a +1?

Like, wasn't it established months and months ago that MK Up Throw actually HURTS Pikmin, and that you can follow it up with a few sword swipes?

You can literally kill all of the Pikmin in 1-2 hits and then assault a neutered Olimar.

 

[Megamang]

The freakin bullet arts giving her a little safety/annoyance on her smashes is really, really really frustrating when it screws up a powershield -> charge smash, since you are trying to end her life ASAP since she can just end yours at any moment.

So these flow charts are coming out... but so is data that says DI does not effect her specials? And the charts are slightly different, although this is reasonable where one comes from a Diddy main and the other from a Rosalina...

What am I DIing if I can't DI her specials though? I guess the aerial links are the weak point... But if she reads you at all, your dodge gets you closer to whatever blast zone she pleases?

Ugh, im glad I can Shadow Sneak out. If there is a period where they fix that but don't touch Bayonetta, i'll be rather displeased.


Anyways, it seems the general idea is DI up and in and lower percentages, then when you hit about 40 (rage lowering that number significantly) you switch to down and away? So just DI her down and away when you fear you might die?

But you can't actually DI the second Witch Twist anyways, so why does the uair sometimes miss?

Is the fate of the victim totally up to the bayonetta? You know, I felt her uair starting from the opposite side was kinda cool, but now I just think it makes matters worse when you are gonna die anyways, and they just built her around the ladder combo....


Idk, but your best bet is to just not engage, abuse her relatively bad mobility and light weight.

 

[FullMoon]

Mr. II's Robin MU Chart

So apparently Robin's bottom tier?
Dath/Raziek's Chart below for reference:

This is basically pessimism vs optimism lol

 

[Mr. Johan]

The best part about the list is that either pessimist or optimist, R.O.B. still manages to be an even matchup.

 

[Nobie]

The freakin bullet arts giving her a little safety/annoyance on her smashes is really, really really frustrating when it screws up a powershield -> charge smash, since you are trying to end her life ASAP since she can just end yours at any moment.

So these flow charts are coming out... but so is data that says DI does not effect her specials? And the charts are slightly different, although this is reasonable where one comes from a Diddy main and the other from a Rosalina...

What am I DIing if I can't DI her specials though? I guess the aerial links are the weak point... But if she reads you at all, your dodge gets you closer to whatever blast zone she pleases?

Ugh, im glad I can Shadow Sneak out. If there is a period where they fix that but don't touch Bayonetta, i'll be rather displeased.


Anyways, it seems the general idea is DI up and in and lower percentages, then when you hit about 40 (rage lowering that number significantly) you switch to down and away? So just DI her down and away when you fear you might die?

But you can't actually DI the second Witch Twist anyways, so why does the uair sometimes miss?

Is the fate of the victim totally up to the bayonetta? You know, I felt her uair starting from the opposite side was kinda cool, but now I just think it makes matters worse when you are gonna die anyways, and they just built her around the ladder combo....


Idk, but your best bet is to just not engage, abuse her relatively bad mobility and light weight.

Maybe KuroganeHammer can verify this, but it seems like the only things that negate DI are the very last hitbox of Afterburner Kick and Witch Twist 2, so I imagine people are getting hit by the initial hitbox of ABK.

 

[Megamang]

And megaman shifts dramatically. Makes sense, he consistently zones while Robin has the much higher reward.

Pessimistic view: His projectiles beat all mine, canceling out my thunder spells and arcfire isn't going to hit. He does solid damage while he zones, and has a great spike for ending my life if his zoning gets me offstage

Optimistic: He is a low reward zoner. I am a medium-high reward zoner. I just have to get in, and then the hurt is on. He may edgeguard me, but I can edgeguard him almost as easily. Boom


Perspective and ****.

 

[Ninety]

Mr. II's Robin MU Chart

So apparently Robin's bottom tier?
Dath/Raziek's Chart below for reference:

Hah. Man, if Mr II thinks Robin sucks that bad, it's a wonder he mains him.

 

[ARGHETH]

Hah. Man, if Mr II thinks Robin sucks that bad, it's a wonder he mains him.

The guy cosplayed Robin at Pound 2016. I think he just likes the character.

 

[Ninety]

So do I, and it's the reason why I main Robin, but I probably wouldn't if I thought he was bottom tier. (Wonder how Jiggs mains manage.) Still, he must think there's something to work with, considering how he managed to beat freaking Nairo and all. Or maybe he just chalks it up to himself? Who knows.

 

[C0rvus]

I think the difference between the Robin MU charts brings up a very important issue; they are pretty damn subjective. I think their usefulness is very limited for discussion for this reason. Maybe if the person who made it posted it and started a conversation with it, or explained their stance on specific relevant MUs. As it stands, I get very little out of them.

 

[TimidKitsune129]

I believe this is Raziek and Dath's finalized MU list:

"Roughly sorted (left -> right) in order of confidence."

If a character is not listed, it means they don't have enough experience to come to a conclusion.

If you are curious on their explanation, they have a tl;dr written version:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...kxYuM5_2bE_jHqn1mTDYhkf_E/edit#gid=1189498893

Otherwise, if you have 2 and a half hours to spare, you can also check out their video where they explain the MUs in greater detail.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6lgQacRDRU&feature=youtu.be&a

Or we could just wait until @Raziek and Dathx show up. That works too. :3

 

[Browny]

So... that highly triggering post I did a few weeks ago about 'the only reason bayo mains drop their combo is because they messed up, not because of bad DI by their opponent' is possibly true?'

aaaaaaaaaaaahjsdkgbsfhdsfsg

The only thing worse than people salty about losing to bayo, are bayo mains so conceited that they dont spend a minute trying to DI things themselves before realising 'wow that garbage I've been spouting on social media about people needing to adapt with better DI was wrong'.

Bayo defenders pls

 

[ZSaberLink]

Third fastest. Pit's is f6 and Diddy's is f5. I don't think Diddy and Pit's are especially good at hitting grounded opponents though.

Both Charizard and Ness also have USmashes that start on Frame 6. Bowser Jr.'s also starts on Frame 7.

 

[FullMoon]

It's kinda weird that they say that Robin's jab wrecks Greninja when wind jab is one of the easiest moves for Greninja to Shadow Sneak out of.

Personally when I'm dealing with Robin I'm more afraid of his aerials than of his jab. I guess it's not too surprising though considering their Greninja experience comes from people I've never even heard of before.

 

[PK Gaming]

It's kinda weird that they say that Robin's jab wrecks Greninja when wind jab is one of the easiest moves for Greninja to Shadow Sneak out of.

Personally when I'm dealing with Robin I'm more afraid of his aerials than of his jab. I guess it's not too surprising though considering their Greninja experience comes from people I've never even heard of before.

It wasn't, because Greninja would still eat a ton of damage from it even if it used Shadow Sneak. That was the case anyway, before the recent Jab change made it easier to escape Wind Jab in general.

I remember when we argued this matchup nearly a year ago, and this was a sticking point back then too. Feeling pretty nostalgic, lol.

 

[FullMoon]

It wasn't, because Greninja would still eat a ton of damage from it even if it used Shadow Sneak. That was the case anyway, before the recent Jab change made it easier to escape Wind Jab in general.

I remember when we argued this matchup nearly a year ago. Feeling pretty nostalgic.

There was a change to Robin's jab? Because it was always fairly easy to get out of wind jab with Shadow Sneak.

In fact every time I go check if the hitstun cancel is still in I do it on Robin's wind jab because it's very to check it that way.

 

[ARGHETH]

There was a change to Robin's jab? Because it was always fairly easy to get out of wind jab with Shadow Sneak.

In fact every time I go check if the hitstun cancel is still in I do it on Robin's wind jab because it's very to check it that way.

Base Knockback of Jab 1 and 2 were both increased.

 

[PK Gaming]

There was a change to Robin's jab? Because it was always fairly easy to get out of wind jab with Shadow Sneak.

In fact every time I go check if the hitstun cancel is still in I do it on Robin's wind jab because it's very to check it that way.

Yeah, Jab 1/2 were tweaked so that it's generally easier to land the Fire Jab, but characters also generally pop out Wind Jab quicker as a result.

And idk the local Greninja I play with was never able to pop out of Wind Jab that quickly. Maybe the weren't mashing side B hard enough?

 

[FullMoon]

Yeah, Jab 1/2 were tweaked so that it's generally easier to land the Fire Jab, but characters also generally pop out Wind Jab quicker as a result.

And idk the local Greninja I play with was never able to pop out of Wind Jab that quickly. Maybe the weren't mashing side B hard enough?

Huh, I never really played against a Robin ever since the patch. I would have to see if it's easier for Greninja to get out of it then. I'm pretty sure I could consistently escape it before with a mix of SDI and SSHC

 

[Fatmanonice]

So... I'll like some opinions from Sheik players about Sheik's bad match ups. I have unusually good mileage with Megaman, Ike, Dedede, Wii Fit, and Greninja against the guy I typically take to grand finals at my locals so my viewpoint on this is miserably skewed. I feel like I'm winning matchups I have no business winning (aside from maybe Wii Fit) so I'd like some perspective on this.

 

[Nobie]

So... that highly triggering post I did a few weeks ago about 'the only reason bayo mains drop their combo is because they messed up, not because of bad DI by their opponent' is possibly true?'

aaaaaaaaaaaahjsdkgbsfhdsfsg

The only thing worse than people salty about losing to bayo, are bayo mains so conceited that they dont spend a minute trying to DI things themselves before realising 'wow that garbage I've been spouting on social media about people needing to adapt with better DI was wrong'.

Bayo defenders pls

Why is everybody reading that thing about Bayonetta wrong?

What the chart says is that two things in particular negate DI: The final 6 frames of After Burner Kick, and the second use of Witch Twist. Everything else is DI-able.

Not only that, but the VERY IMAGES made by Uekibachi and Shu SHOW HOW TO DI THE REST OF THE AERIALS.

C'mon man.

Also, Browny , you seem to have gotten increasingly salty since the release of Bayonetta.

 

[Y2Kay]

Jab and Check Mate work better on fast fallers. Robin Mains sound like Kirby Mains sometimes. They let the fast faller status get to their head.

But when you take into account the massive mobility advantage Greninja has, and how hydro pump really wrecks him offstage, I think it's probaby more even.

It seems like Dath and Raziek are underrating Greninja's approach options and neutral. And they seemed to tippy toe around greninja's excellent edgeguarding capabilities.

It's also not comforting that I can't recognize any of the greninja mains they consulted for the match up chart.

Or how their more detailed analysis video makes it incredibly hard to find any specific information. (It's not in alphabetical order)

 

[Mr. Johan]

Greninja can definitely get out Wind Jab easier now.

However, Fire Jab is guaranteed at lower percents now. Greninja can't hope to fastfall and shield Fire Jab and punish.

But the Jab's main use was to make Greninja honest. From a neutral spot, only Fair is getting through Robin's Jab for a clean hit, and that has to be meticulously spaced. It's a needed tool to remind Greninja that he can't go wild and expect to work.

I play P2P Gibus from Texas from time to time, and I've never once felt hopeless in the matchup. Jab still does good things.

 

[Y2Kay]

The match up is close, but I don't think we lose. And nobody has given me a good explanation to think otherwise

 

[Djmarcus44]

The ease of hitting people with Checkmate varies depending on the character. You were able to do it on Sheik since Sheik is one of the easiest characters in the game to Checkmate. All of Robin's throw's are weight-dependent, so lightweight fastfallers like are very easy to do it on. Could probably do it while drunk. The heavier and floatier the character gets the harder it is to do. Weight seems to be the more important factor though since Jiggles is floaty as **** but not terribly difficult to hit, while Dedede is fastfaller but somewhat harder to hit. Samus is a ***** to hit with Checkmate.

It's also percent specific. The general range is like ~90%-120% but that's not exactly true for all characters. For the aforementioned balloon Pokemon and fat penguin you have to do it earlier and later, respectively. With Falcon it's more like 105% when it starts true comboing. And so on. Not to mention that the execution window isn't exactly huge.

idk what Mii Gunner size you were testing on but it should be possible to true combo Checkmate on it, it just might be that there's something about Gunner's weight+physics that may make it a little tricky.

Thanks for explaining why it is hard to Checkmate gunner. Gunner is a pretty heavy and floaty character with slightly below average gravity. I used guest size gunner. It kills at 96%, but the computer was able to airdodge at that percent. The computer was also able to airdodge out of Checkmate at every percent in the range that you gave me. The computer was even able to airdodge at percents as low as 50%. Unless a player can show me otherwise, I am pretty much convinced that Checkmate doesn't true combo on Gunner.

 

[FullMoon]

Greninja can definitely get out Wind Jab easier now.

However, Fire Jab is guaranteed at lower percents now. Greninja can't hope to fastfall and shield Fire Jab and punish.

But the Jab's main use was to make Greninja honest. From a neutral spot, only Fair is getting through Robin's Jab for a clean hit, and that has to be meticulously spaced. It's a needed tool to remind Greninja that he can't go wild and expect to work.

I play P2P Gibus from Texas from time to time, and I've never once felt hopeless in the matchup. Jab still does good things.

I don't think either side of the MU feels hopeless. I'm pretty certain that it's even

 

[Dathx]

For those wondering/complaining/talking about the Dath/Raziek tier list:

Sometimes I have good data and experience to backup my claims on MUs. As a good example, someone said that Little Mac could not possibly be in Robin's favor. However, if I play Sol (undisputed best Mac?) in tournament/friendlies often, have never dropped a tournament set to him (I have dropped a money match out of like 4), and feel the MU is in Robin's favor, then it's probably in Robin's favor. That's very hard to argue against considering Sol's and my experience in the MU, and his dedication to his character's MUs (check out his analysis of the sheik MU if you don't believe me).

Then there's times I have sub-par data and experience to backup my claims. A good example of this would be Greninja. Although I play good Greninjas, they're not a top player of that character. When this happens, some of it can turn into theory craft (exactly what critics are doing for Greninja's side), and I'll turn to Raziek for his input on the MU (which is why I work with him on the chart, as a second opinion) So although I am incapable of putting an exact number on these MUs, we put in our best efforts. And complaining about a +/-5 change is dumb considering that's within statistical error.

This is why I include the "experience" column in the excel chart version of my MU chart. That way instead of thinking all of it is subjective like everybody else's MU charts, you can actually say "hey, Dath/Raz actually played that guy and they're pretty good". While conversely you can also say "wtf is an Expert Dual or a quarter-rando (its a system I use to rank randoms, or someone whose name would be unrecognizable out of state btw)" and pretty much assume that's a theory-craft MU.

As a side note, when I have found that my (or our) experience is inadequate to determine a MU number (think Jigglypuff) we've been more likely to grey it out in the recent updates or add a question mark near it.

 

[bc1910]

Greninja beats Robin IMO. His jab is not some insurmountable wall. Greninja has the second best dashgrab in the game, with which he can punish almost anything badly spaced. Robin can't just press jab to stop an approach.

Greninja can camp Robin fairly well, is short enough to dash under Arcfire during startup, and can generally choose to disengage if he's worried about grab or jab. Both of those moves hurt, so it's not wise for Greninja to stay up close for long periods of time. Arcfire is actually the worst thing about the MU IMO, because without it it's a simple case of Greninja pelting a very immobile target with fast shurikens. Arcfire blocking them is very good for Robin. I recall a video by Dath and Raziek where both said they don't find Arcfire useful against Greninja, so I don't know how their experience differs.

When Greninja does want to go in, his Nair is -4 on shield, which is too good for Robin to punish with his f7 grab. Even if the Greninja messes up the timing a bit, he can spotdodge. Approaching Robin is only made difficult by Arcfire.

Robin is too immobile to deal with continued, smart pressure from Greninja IMO. He has some very powerful up close options, but Greninja can choose to rarely/never be in the situations where he can get hit by them (similar to what Emblem Lord said about Greninja vs Ryu; Greninja can choose to disengage). His recovery being linear Hydro Pump fodder doesn't help either.

I feel that both players are coming at this MU from a pre-patch angle, where I might have agreed it wasn't in Greninja's favour. The changes to shieldstun and Greninja's buffs have turned it around.

Dathx Hey, nice of you to comment.

I think your chart is quite accurate in general.

Others can't be blamed for using theory/not being top players to discuss this MU when you yourself have said you don't have enough data on it. I know that you recognise this, though.

I don't think discussing (not complaining - why does this word get thrown around so much?) a +/- 5 change is dumb in the context of a MU chart as that can be the difference between an even and advantaged MU. For what it's worth I think it's an error of +/- 10 anyway.

 

[ARGHETH]

When Greninja does want to go in, his Nair is -4 on shield, which is too good for Robin to punish with his f7 jab.

You mean F7 grab? Because Jab's F4.

 

[Fatmanonice]

So for Wii Fit Trainer. I'm curious to hear your thoughts on what could be tweaked of her to make her top or high tier. Also, I'm just wondering what super-brawl-wario on crack means.(My bad lol)

I'm curious what his thoughts are too but I think I have an idea on both.

"Super Brawl Wario on Crack" is probably referring to how, second to only Metaknight Meta Knight, Wario was absurdly good at gimping and had such crazy aerial mobility that the character easily ran circles around you if they knew the match up. Wario's range was garbage but it didn't really matter too much in most match ups because he was just so mobile and, if he wanted to get in, he'd get in. This along with a recovery that was really difficult to edgeguard and the always present comeback factor of the waft, you had a character that was incredibly elusive. If it weren't for the laughably exploitable grab releases against him, Wario would have probably stayed top 5 or even top 3 throughout Brawl's lifespan.

As for Wii Fit, a set up throw with her would be absolutely monstrous. Deep breathing + hypothetical set up dthrow + bair/uair/baited air dodge header/fully charged sun salutation = a good portion of the cast being dead at 100% or less. It'd basically be pre 1.1.5 patch Sheik all over again. Don't even get me started on how stupid good it would be a low percentages given that nair and uair can freakin' combo into themselves already. Maybe we WFT players will get lucky and one night Sakurai will have a dark impulse to make her scary. On this note, I think Bowser Jr would practically be a whole different character too if he had a set up throw or even a kill throw.

 

[Rizen]

It turns out that you may not be able to DI the late hit of Bayonetta's ABK, or her second Witch Twist.

Twitter Source 1
Twitter Source 2
Reddit Thread

I don't think Bayo should be banned but people seem to be underestimating her as much as saying she's too good. I consider Aero to be an accurate source. If top players didn't soft ban her, I think Bayo would dominate tournaments, more so.
The soft ban and area bans are ending up being counterproductive. People were saying learn to DI but if ^that's true, an optimized Bayo seems better than optimized anti-bayo play. Having her ladders ignore weight and DI the second hits, not freefall, potentially 0-death, start with safe options including frame 4 OoS upB and safe on shield side B, in addition to her other tools like bat within for a fantastic disadvantaged state, witch time, amazing recovery, and bullet arts is ridiculous. Top levels of play using these sounds crazy.

Like I said, I'm against banning her but can we call a spade a spade? Bayo is OP and should be nerfed.

 

[FullMoon]

I was less criticizing the ratio and more just the reasoning behind it, granted it was just a little summary so you can't really take much from it, but the point about jab just left me a little confused as I don't think it's that big of a deal.

 

[Megamang]

To kinda go a few subjects back...

Cloud's dtilt is pretty good, and smart usage is definitely a strength for Cloud... but to say he prefers that to a shulk style dtilt, im not sure. His ftilt is a mediocre-at-best poke, so with a commital Dtilt like that... he really can't just, poke in front of him safely, without the usage of an aerial. (LCS not included for this discussion, though it obviously remedies a lot of these problems).

Maybe optimally he'd have his dtilt, and Shulk's d-tilt would be his forward tilt. That would be obscene. Cloud is a few steps away from being an untameable monster, but he still feels surprisingly honest. I usually dislike the connotation of that word, but when I first heard someone call Cloud honest in terms of his limited ability to press buttons on what is in front of him, it fit pretty well.