Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Trunks159]

Fixed. ROB doesn't really have any other great edgeguarding tools. This one move pushes his edgeguarding from 'meh' to 'godlike.'

Lmao I legit couldn't remember the name of the move so I just wrote being Rob.

 

[Y2Kay]

So, I know a lot has changed in the past month but who are considered to be Mewtwo's worst match ups now? I've heard arguments for being bad but I'd appreciate other people weighing in since the character has very quickly become relevant.

Add in: In my own experience against a local Mewtwo, Ike vs Mewtwo feels bad because of Ike's range, throw set ups, and raw kill power.

Like I've said, Rosa is, and frankly has been, even. Mario and Ness is even as well. Ike and DK are annoying and volatile Match ups, but are probably even too.

Vex and LoF Blue go back and forth a lot, Mew^2 beat M2K's DK, and took DKWill to game 5.

Why does everyone keep saying Rosa beats Mewtwo? Even Dabuz thinks it's even.

 

[Megamang]

As mewtwo, I really hate Palutena lol. Her uair kills him damn early, shes hard to beat in reflector wars because her multiplier is low, and shadow claw / tail disjoints lose to straight invincible hitboxes.

Also, Sonic. Curse sonic.

Robin's checkmate and Ding Dong kills m2 fraudulently early, same with ROB stuff.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

I dont think rosa is that bad, but fox should probably be added to that list.

How so? I understand Fox's speed and frame data make the matchup stressful for the more balanced playstyle of Mewtwo, but Mewtwo certainly has the tools to body Fox. Mewtwo has a strong out of shield game with nair/grab, and someone with mediocre throw followups like Fox has to be careful getting in on such a volatile shield. Mewtwo straight up beats reflectors, so Fox is still susceptible to shadow ball. Mewtwo can presumably gimp Fox with relative ease as well. They're both pretty light, but in the end I think Mewtwo kills just a bit more easily. It's easy for Mewtwo to overcommit to something and get punished with an upsmash, but I think Fox will spend a lot of time fishing for smash attacks while Mewtwo is comfortable shield grabbing and landing uthrow.

 

[Trunks159]

I keep seeing Rosalina being brought up as a contender for #1 still and I'm really not sure why. With the one exception of Do or DI Rosalina generally does not win tournaments and as she things stand it's *kinda* plausible to assume that she's getting borderline countered by Cloud and MK. I don't know where's standing exactly right now but she should not be in conisderation for #1 imo.

It doesn't really matter who wins tournaments too much because when Zero's there, it's practically guaranteed that he'll be taking it. Top 8/Top 5 are equally important compared to the winner of the tournament.

 

[Deathcarter]

In light of the recent patch nerfing Sheik and Larry Lurr's performance against Dabuz, we really should start considering Fox as a top tier now. Having his worst matchup nerfed and his other bad matchup with Rosalina looking at least manageable and not a straight up blowout like with Ness, there's no longer any reason that Fox isn't being included in top tier discussion with the other central meta game threats.

 

[Megamang]

Shady Shaymin

Fox won't be fishing for smash attacks, he will be fishing for hit confirms into the smashes which kill extremely early. M2's meh landing can really hurt vs fox's coverage, and he can have trouble getting fox off of him.

Because of m2's light weight, a bair at the edge of the stage actually starts killing at semi-reasonable percentages. His CQC is really solid once he gets in, since m2's fastest CQC option is f6.

 

[Amadeus9]

As mewtwo, I really hate Palutena lol. Her uair kills him damn early, shes hard to beat in reflector wars because her multiplier is low, and shadow claw / tail disjoints lose to straight invincible hitboxes.

Also, Sonic. Curse sonic.

Robin's checkmate and Ding Dong kills m2 fraudulently early, same with ROB stuff.

I was talking and playing with katakiri a bit after he picked up mew2, after i think 1.1.1? dunno. Basically we decided that mew2 actually has some pretty bad issues with Palutena, one of the big ones he complaned about was her reflector. The reflector has a lower multiplier than other ones, so mew2s shadow ball can be reflected off palu, reflected by mew2, then reflected by palu again and then pierce mew2's reflector lmao. Its definitely one of my favorite interactions in the game, up there with olimars pikmin extending mks fsmash to p much be active for 20 frames rofl.

Theres also the other stuff u mentioned, uair is mad strong against mew2 and her back air will stuff what makes mew2 good, i.e. it cleanly beats out his aerials

 

[Tri Knight]

This is also how I feel about the matchup. If you had the chance to go in a potentially even MU or one that's largely in your character's favor, you'd pick MK if you were Aba as well. It doesn't really fully detract from what Abadango accomplished this weekend, it was just one set where he didn't go Mewtwo... though I was very interested to see how Mewtwo vs. Rosalina would outfold at high level.



Pit's arrows aren't particularly strong and Dark Pit's barely can be moved from a straight line trajectory. I'm not understanding the comparison.

Im sorry I should have explained. I guess youre right about DP's arrow in a way but both can still be used to gimp characters like Cloud, cut momentum, and eat his double jump to allow for a KO. Even if he does make it back far enough to Up-B the ledge it can still mean a stock. Similarly to Link. That's kinda what I meant.

Though I guess you can also say the Pits can fly out there and try to overwhelm Cloud offstage too. I'm rambling.

 

[Y2Kay]

One thing I do to make the Fox MU easier is to fire Shadow ball anytime he tries to fox illusion to the ledge. It lets me net some early kills.

 

[TurboLink]

In light of the recent patch nerfing Sheik and Larry Lurr's performance against Dabuz, we really should start considering Fox as a top tier now. Having his worst matchup nerfed and his other bad matchup with Rosalina looking at least manageable and not a straight up blowout like with Ness, there's no longer any reason that Fox isn't being included in top tier discussion with the other central meta game threats.

Why would Fox go up though? Sheik still dunks on him hard offstage and yes she has lost her easy down throw to up air kill confirm, but you have to remember that Fox is a light character who also has the rare trait of being a fast faller.

I would like to see a Sheik player like Void go up against Larry.

 

[Das Koopa]

Updated results score tier list post-Pound (and other tournies)

Spoiler

Bayonetta: 123
Sheik: 90
Cloud: 79.5
Diddy Kong: 79
Mario: 71.5
Fox: 63.5
Ness: 61
Zero Suit Samus: 52.5
Rosalina: 49.5
Toon Link: 49.5
Luigi: 43
Meta Knight: 40
Sonic: 38
R.O.B: 36
Mega Man: 33
Mewtwo: 32.5
Captain Falcon: 31.5
Corrin: 31.5
Yoshi: 21
Pikachu: 19.5
Lucario: 19
Samus: 17
Olimar: 16.5
Greninja: 16
Peach: 16
Donkey Kong: 15
Bowser: 14.5
Ryu: 14
Lucas: 12
Mr. Game & Watch: 12
Villager: 10.5
Ike: 10.5
Little Mac: 10
Pac-Man: 9.5
Palutena: 9
Link: 8
Wario: 7
Robin: 6
Marth: 5
Pit: 5
King Dedede: 5
Wii Fit Trainer: 4
Duck Hunt: 4
Kirby: 3
Jigglypuff: 3
Mii Brawler: 3
Bowser Jr.: 3
Falco: 2
Lucina: 2
Zelda: 1

there weren't any methodology changes so it's still the same "points for characters increase by tourney relevancy" system

 

[Y2Kay]

Why would Fox go up though? Sheik still dunks on him hard offstage and yes she has lost her easy down throw to up air kill confirm, but you have to remember that Fox is a light character who also has the rare trait of being a fast faller.

I would like to see a Sheik player like Void go up against Larry.

They have played. Larry Lurr is kind of forced to go DK against him, instead of Fox.

 

[LancerStaff]

Im sorry I should have explained. I guess youre right about DP's arrow in a way but both can still be used to gimp characters like Cloud, cut momentum, and eat his double jump to allow for a KO. Even if he does make it back far enough to Up-B the ledge it can still mean a stock. Similarly to Link. That's kinda what I meant.

Though I guess you can also say the Pits can fly out there and try to overwhelm Cloud offstage too. I'm rambling.

I don't doubt that Link's arrows are useful for edgeguarding. They can be controlled, but only by how long you've charged them. Between that and how the opponent can predict their flight the same way the Link player would I don't think it would be nearly as consistent as something that's nearly impossible to outmaneuver. Link's other projectiles I'm sure also help a ton, though.

 

[DanGR]

Sheik killed Fox while he recovered (bouncing fish destroys him) a majority of the time even before the patch, so the loss of grab 50:50 kills didn't change the matchup all that much.

 

[Halifax?]

I don't see any movement or impetus on improving edge-guarding. We've got brave players like Nairo who take the risk 100% of the time. Players who excel off-stage and vs. opponents on ledge like Dabuz. But it's not something you just hear people mention. Commentators talk about punish optimization and stage control but not really edge-guarding. Whereas in Melee edge-guarding and lack thereof is heavily emphasized by commentators and viewers alike. The S2J meme comes to mind. Do we need the S2J of Smash 4 so people will understand

 

[Radical Larry]

Cloud isn't top 5? Why not? He has great results considering his limited time being available, range comparable with Shulk with frame data better than Roy, (who was DESIGNED to be a rush down-ish swordsman) an amazing juggle game, limit which makes him better in literally every way, and his easy pick up and play style which has allowed his meta to progress DRASTICALLY compared to other DLC and even vanilla characters.

Regarding Ryu Trela from what I know went on some sort of hiatus and 9B straight up dropped him for Bayo. Losing these two players really shrinks his representation and the fact he's harder to play than most characters makes him a very niche choice unless you love the character.

Well, thanks for answering Ryu, but...

As for Cloud, I have a tough time believing he's top five since (his exploitable recovery for one), as people are picking him up and learning about him, people are also finding ways to counteract him. His range being comparable to Shulk is not even true; some of his attacks don't even reach near as close as Shulk's attacks, and Cloud's frame data isn't all that great either; it's average between good and bad, due to having its share of slow attacks.

And even with his faster attacks, you cannot afford to have any of your attacks blocked. If Cloud even has his B-Air blocked, he's going to get punished. He's not a character who's exempt from being punished due to opponents shielding. And as for his juggle game, it's average at best, because for every time people realize that Cloud will mainly juggle with U-Air, people will find ways to avoid it or even punish it. Link's the most prominent example of being able to punish Cloud's U-Air, since Link's D-Air can have a mix-up to Cloud or even hit Cloud if Link's far enough away. Sometimes it is even 100% unsafe for Cloud to attempt a U-Air any further if he's around 40% to 70%, since Ganondorf's WizKick is a 50/50 mix-up attack against it if Ganondorf is far enough.

I mean, I can find some use in using U-Air, but people need to know how to just block. Blocking against Cloud and dodging his grabs is a strategy that can make Cloud cry. If he whiffs a grab or has an attack blocked, he's automatically punished depending on the attack and placement.

As for Limit, I have no argument against that.

But what really makes me believe Cloud is not around top 5 is that he can be beaten by Samus just by one grab. It takes one D-Throw > N-Air to start up something that Cloud might not get out of very well. Samus is the kind of character who says "**** it" and can get into Cloud with significant reward. And her projectile game isn't too shabby against him, but at a very high level of play, N-Air is Samus's best option against Cloud due to the F7 hitbox and the semi-spiking angle to it. If Cloud's at a good amount of damage, depending on where he's located, that N-Air will kill him if he lacks Limit. If Samus has the potential to be a bad MU for Cloud, Cloud shouldn't be top 5.

Then again, these are just my thoughts on it. I play Cloud quite a bit, but I just don't find him to be that good at all. Time may tell, but when people start actually figuring out how to play against Cloud he could end up going down later on. I'm no expert, though, and I might as well predict while I still can.

I don't doubt that Link's arrows are useful for edgeguarding. They can be controlled, but only by how long you've charged them. Between that and how the opponent can predict their flight the same way the Link player would I don't think it would be nearly as consistent as something that's nearly impossible to outmaneuver. Link's other projectiles I'm sure also help a ton, though.

Just to answer this, Link's Arrows can be useful for edge guarding, but they're only really significant in usage if you just don't charge them much, as they'll produce weak, mostly horizontal knockback, which can cause a really bad time against opponents like Cloud.

 

[BunbUn129]

I don't see any movement or impetus on improving edge-guarding. We've got brave players like Nairo who take the risk 100% of the time. Players who excel off-stage and vs. opponents on ledge like Dabuz. But it's not something you just hear people mention. Commentators talk about punish optimization and stage control but not really edge-guarding. Whereas in Melee edge-guarding and lack thereof is heavily emphasized by commentators and viewers alike. The S2J meme comes to mind. Do we need the S2J of Smash 4 so people will understand

It's likely because some people take the "everyone recovers for free" joke seriously. A lot of players like to go for 2-frame punishes, but these obviously can't be done with much consistency at all, so the recovering player will usually make it back unscathed. This in turn creates the perception that recoveries are "free." I like watching Tyrant because he's one of those players who loves to harass you offstage; he got several solid edge-guards at Collegiate Coliseum, especially against Mr. Concon.

It's mostly just because some are still to afraid to go offstage and/or are simply bad at reading and baiting air dodges.

 

[Megamang]

No, Cloud is supremely safe with all his aerials. You're being obvious here.


Re: Edgeguarding. Characters like ZSS and M2 can often attempt a fatal offstage hit, and still make it back in time to cover ledge options. This is part of what makes their edgeguarding powerful, since they aren't giving up an advantageous position if they whiff.

Re: Ruining megaman's gameplan by holding his metal blade. This seems odd, since megaman can continue to pellet at midrange to keep him totally safe from the blade. This also blocks most banana attempts. This is the reason Mega does surprisingly well in the Diddy MU, along with solid edgeguarding and other MU factors.

 

[Ninety]

Updated results score tier list post-Pound (and other tournies)

Spoiler

Bayonetta: 123
Sheik: 90
Cloud: 79.5
Diddy Kong: 79
Mario: 71.5
Fox: 63.5
Ness: 61
Zero Suit Samus: 52.5
Rosalina: 49.5
Toon Link: 49.5
Luigi: 43
Meta Knight: 40
Sonic: 38
R.O.B: 36
Mega Man: 33
Mewtwo: 32.5
Captain Falcon: 31.5
Corrin: 31.5
Yoshi: 21
Pikachu: 19.5
Lucario: 19
Samus: 17
Olimar: 16.5
Greninja: 16
Peach: 16
Donkey Kong: 15
Bowser: 14.5
Ryu: 14
Lucas: 12
Mr. Game & Watch: 12
Villager: 10.5
Ike: 10.5
Little Mac: 10
Pac-Man: 9.5
Palutena: 9
Link: 8
Wario: 7
Robin: 6
Marth: 5
Pit: 5
King Dedede: 5
Wii Fit Trainer: 4
Duck Hunt: 4
Kirby: 3
Jigglypuff: 3
Mii Brawler: 3
Bowser Jr.: 3
Falco: 2
Lucina: 2
Zelda: 1

there weren't any methodology changes so it's still the same "points for characters increase by tourney relevancy" system

Well hell, Bayonetta actually won out. Color me surprised.

 

[Blobface]

On the topic of edgeguarding, how many characters have an aerial that ends in 35 or less frames? That kind of aerial is a really valuable tool offstage since it allows you to cover airdodges really easily by throwing out another attack if they airdodge your first one.

 

[BunbUn129]

On the topic of edgeguarding, how many characters have an aerial that ends in 35 or less frames? That kind of aerial is a really valuable tool offstage since it allows you to cover airdodges really easily by throwing out another attack if they airdodge your first one.

MK's down aerial is frame 4, the fastest start-up wise and tied with Lucario, and it ends on frame 27, making it the fastest down aerial in total duration.

Luigi's down aerial is frame 10, and ends on frame 28.

Falcon's bair ends on frame 35.

Diddy's bair ends on frame 30.

And Sheik's fair ends on frame 34.

 

[R3D3MON]

I like watching Tyrant because he's one of those players who loves to harass you offstage; he got several solid edge-guards at Collegiate Coliseum, especially against Mr. Concon.

I don't want to take anything away from Tyrant, but Luigi is rather easy to edgeguard and gimp due to his laggy specials and predictability. You might want to use a character like ZSS or Sheik as a better example for "solid edge-guards".

Keep in mind tho that I know Tyrant has an excellent offstage gameplay.

 

[BunbUn129]

I don't want to take anything away from Tyrant, but Luigi is rather easy to edgeguard and gimp due to his laggy specials and predictability. You might want to use a character like ZSS or Sheik as a better example for "solid edge-guards".

Keep in mind tho that I know Tyrant has an excellent offstage gameplay.

Well, I've seen a lot of sets where people can't seem to successfully edge-guard Luigi's recovery. And, yeah, Tyrant is one of the few players who can just manage to edge-guard Sheik and ZSS on rare occasions, which is more than what you can say for a lot.

 

[ARGHETH]

On the topic of edgeguarding, how many characters have an aerial that ends in 35 or less frames? That kind of aerial is a really valuable tool offstage since it allows you to cover airdodges really easily by throwing out another attack if they airdodge your first one.

< 35:
= 35 (FAF = 36):
None(all > 35):
Has an aerial lasting >= 20 frames:
I'm not going to list what aerials they are, but their mains probably know already.

 

[Das Koopa]

Well hell, Bayonetta actually won out. Color me surprised.

I suspect there would be a dropoff if I limited it to Top 8s

I may carry a Top 16 and Top 8 list at the same time. A big intent of using top 16s in that it captures what mid/lowmid/low tiers do and how often they end up in 9th/13th.

 

[R3D3MON]

Well, I've seen a lot of sets where people can't seem to successfully edge-guard Luigi's recovery. And, yeah, Tyrant is one of the few players who can just manage to edge-guard Sheik and ZSS on rare occasions, which is more than what you can say for a lot.

Well general misinformation about Luigi is really prevalent still in the game for both casual players and competitive players. And also it has to do with the general mindset of people trying to cover ledge getups instead of going offstage. However once you actually learn Luigi's options and gain some MU knowledge, edgeguarding things like Luigi side-b, down-b, and up-b can be quite easy to do. Example videos here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1HeYATwsMCk and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqGz6eS9_1k

 

[Emblem Lord]

< 35:
= 35 (FAF = 36):
None(all > 35):
I'm not going to list what aerials they are, but their mains probably know already.

See man...this is the **** we need to be talking about.

REAL option coverage scenarios where a char can FORCE a response and then cover it. This tells me players need to start throwing people in the air more too. Create those airdodge traps ya mooks.

 

[Das Koopa]

It says a lot that "aerial fightin' Puff" doesn't have any sub-35 FAF aerials lol

 

[Locke 06]

It says a lot that "aerial fightin' Puff" doesn't have any sub-35 FAF aerials lol

Maybe because her NAir stays out for literally 25 frames with a good sized hitbox + extremely good air control.

 

[ARGHETH]

It says a lot that "aerial fightin' Puff" doesn't have any sub-35 FAF aerials lol

She's actually one frame off...her and both Pits have an aeiral with a FAF of 37.
Still really sad, though.

 

[LancerStaff]

Don't have time to (re)do the math, but can't Pit make somebody AD with Dair then catch it with Nair? Likewise, I'm sure most characters can force an AD with whatever has the least endlag then use what has the least startup to beat an AD.

 

[G. Stache]

I don't want to take anything away from Tyrant, but Luigi is rather easy to edgeguard and gimp due to his laggy specials and predictability. You might want to use a character like ZSS or Sheik as a better example for "solid edge-guards".

Keep in mind tho that I know Tyrant has an excellent offstage gameplay.

I wouldn't say that Luigi is gimping bait you have the Jumpless cyclone down. At that point, it becomes a lot harder to gimp him. I'm not saying that Luigi's recovery is flawless, but I would like to bring up that not a lot of people can gimp the likes of Boss and ConCon consistently as long as they've done Jumpless Cyclone correctly. Not even Void's and K9's respective Sheiks can gimp ConCon's Luigi consistently. And this is Sheik we're talking about. Supposedly a top tier edgeguarder. Not to mention that K9 and Void know both ConCon and Luigi pretty well by now. Luigi's recovery is extremely predictable...in a vacuum. In all reality, he has a lot of mix up options and, if you have Jumpless cyclone down, it can even be a risk to edgeguard him if you get caught in it. I agree that there are a few characters that can potentially **** Luigi hard offstage (MK and obviously Killager being two just at the top of my head). But mix up potential, Jumpless cyclone, and raw distance keep it from being trash. In fact, it can be quite good if you make sure you keep the opponent guessing.

It says a lot that "aerial fightin' Puff" doesn't have any sub-35 FAF aerials lol

Well, keep in mind that 3 out of 5 aerials have multiple/lasting hit boxes (Nair, Dair and Fair) which leaves a Uair and Bair: two aerials that aren't terribly slow, but aren't what I'd call blindingly fast.

 

[Emblem Lord]

She's actually one frame off...her and both Pits have an aeiral with a FAF of 37.
Still really sad, though.

Meanwhile Bayonetta has like 3 aerials that are 30 frames total. lol.

The woman is truly in a different league. Its hilarious.

 

[williamsga555]

Wario's fair really doesn't end by 35 frames. That's like the most surprising thing in that list to me for some reason.

 

[C0rvus]

Meanwhile Bayonetta has like 3 aerials that are 30 frames total. lol.

The woman is truly in a different league. Its hilarious.

Plus she can catch air dodges EZ PZ by holding her insane nair for gimps or up air for juggles. Insanity.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

< 35:
= 35 (FAF = 36):
None(all > 35):
I'm not going to list what aerials they are, but their mains probably know already.

Another important thing to add to this would be "aerials that last long enough to easily catch air dodges upon reaction". Not having to time a tight window and instead just chucking out a long lasting hitbox that you know is going to hit them the moment their intangibility ends is pretty great.

 

[NotLiquid]

Plus she can catch air dodges EZ PZ by holding her insane nair for gimps or up air for juggles. Insanity.

Sub 35 frame attacks within sub 35 frame attacks

We're through the looking glass, people

 

[R3D3MON]

G. Stache
I think you are underselling Con Con's ability as a player to mixup Luigi's recovery options.
And I would say the opposite about Luigi's recovery in vacuum: it looks decent in a vacuum due to the distance and various angles that Luigi can come back from. But a vacuum situation assumes that nobody challenges any of Luigi's specials, which are very laggy, have blindspots, or can be challenged directly in the case of side-b with an aerial due to the lack of disjoints in most of Luigi's moveset. Luigi's recovery options rely a lot on the opponent's respect for Luigi's specials and the opponent's lack of knowledge about Luigi's offstage options, which are predictable. For example, you don't try to challenge Luigi's down-b head-on because that is essentially a suicide. What you need to take advantage of is the vertical blindspot that Luigi's down-b has. For the case of sheik, she doesn't exactly have a good aerial that can reliably take advantage of Luigi's down-b vertical blindspot (her dair is not really an option), which is also where a lot of Con Con's mixups come from.

Con Con can still recover relatively safely (emphasis on relatively) because he has enough skills as a player to actually mixup his recovery options and also happens to be a master of jumpless cyclone and lives in an extremely stacked region. But even with Con Con I've seen plenty of videos where Con Con messes up his inputs during recovery or accidentally loses his double jump and just falls to his doom.

I see ness's recovery as a same light as Luigi. He has options and the distance, but he can get very predictable (Of course Ness has his awesome DJ and airdodge to help him greatly but still). However, people still don't take enough advantage of Ness's recovery even at high/top level. Both these characters are not getting punished enough because people still don't really know enough about the two character's options (especially for Luigi) and what counteracts what, partly because the meta is still so young and the development of counterplay has been much slower compared to optimization and mixups (it took more than one year for top/high level players to properly DI ZSS's boost kick and nair to flip jump spike setups, as stated by Trifroze before).

EDIT: Also Luigi's fair only last 4 frames. Definitely not a lingering aerial lol. Dair also only lasts for 5 frames, with the strong hitbox (not the late hitbox) being actively only for 1 frame. Uair (in terms of total frames) has more lasting hitbox than both fair and dair. Also another note about uair: uair is actually a very fast aerial that comes out on frame 5. The problem with this move is its disappointing range and the 0 BK of the move (a problem that up-tilt shares).

 

[Seagull Joe]

As mewtwo, I really hate Palutena lol. Her uair kills him damn early, shes hard to beat in reflector wars because her multiplier is low, and shadow claw / tail disjoints lose to straight invincible hitboxes.

Also, Sonic. Curse sonic.

Robin's checkmate and Ding Dong kills m2 fraudulently early, same with ROB stuff.

vs is even. Unsure why would complain. He can camp reliably and pressure him well.