Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Shaya]

Man, anyone else watch the ConCon vs Void set? I guess Luigi's live and die by the mashing. Even though ConCon lost (with two very disappointing SDs because he messed up the Jumpless cyclone recovery), the set was a really good one. I gotta say, ConCon really made Sheik look extremely doable for Luigi. Though that's the man who's in the same region as both Void and K9...so I suppose he gets a lot of practice. I don't want to say it just after one set, but the Sheik/Luigi MU might just be around even after seeing actual high level play to back it up. Don't know about anyone else, but having Sheik be this much more tame really ups my spirits quite a bit...even if ConCon was sent to losers.

EDIT: Mewtwo, in the other hand, is unsurprisingly a really bad MU...kinda saw that one coming. I'd be willing to put that MU into the -2 range...

The reverse 3-0 was still tight.
Luigi getting hit away and then having to get through stage wide needles hurt him a lot.
Sheik having to contest Luigi's normals more actively due to the fair nerfs and not as freely capitaliziing on grabs hurts her by a noticeable amount.

Both sets should be around the latter half of the second hour of this: https://www.twitch.tv/2ggaming/v/55879081

 

[Nobie]

Rich Brown kept on hitting ConCon's Luigi with the M2 down tilt just as he dropped shield. This has made me realize that Mewtwo can threaten the opponent just by crouching.

 

[Trifroze]

ZSS's recovery is very predictable/punishable

I'd really like to hear some elaboration on this opinion because it's something I never expected to hear.

The way I see it: ZSS has high aerial speed and mobility, one of the highest mid air jumps in the game and one of the best airdodges in the game, but most importantly she has three distinct specials for recovery. Side b is the longest tether in the game that you can either pull yourself in with immediately, wait for a good while before doing so or cancel it completely into her other recovery options, and you can use it in reverse. Down b is a moderate speed command jump with decent invincibility where you have considerable control over its distance, essentially giving you a third jump and the option to recover high in most scenarios especially if you use it before expending your mid air jump. Up b is there for low recovery, and while its distance is nothing special, it hits above the ledge and autosnaps, and combined with her mid air jump you can go pretty much as deep as you want with it.

Additionally it's very rare to see ZSS players getting gimped, and when you do it's usually because they made an input error, took too big of a risk on an edgeguard or autopiloted back to the ledge the same way over and over (I know the last one happens to myself when I don't focus).

If you asked me what's the best thing about ZSS right now it's probably her disadvantage as a whole, including the ability to escape combos, recover and get back to the stage from the ledge. Your latter point about powershielding making things hard for her is completely true though.

 

[RonNewcomb]

Along with what Shaya said, I think offstage needles are going to be vital to Sheik's success too. And her mains are going to have to kick the habit of grabs as high-percent punishes and move onto f-tilt, d-tilt, and jab (when applicable). Walking d-tilt in general is godlike.

I've really enjoyed watching Sheik play lately. All kinds of uses for BF, aerial needles, grenades, basically her whole moveset in all kinds of ways.

Re @Thinkaman asking who the four lose to, besides ZSS and Sheik, Cloud loses to Mewtwo. Browny went into great detail several pages ago.

Any mains in here saw Hyuga vs Bayonetta a few days ago? I feel he played it wrong. Up angled boomerang from the ground prevents dive kicks, but he never used it. Grounded up b on reaction to heel slide beats it clean at ranges where bayo's follow-up kick hits, but I didn't see that either. Arrows harrass, and Tink can hold a bomb the whole time. With those two options shut down, Bayo's left with a bad forward roll or trying trying to go up and over the mess, but then Tink has an uair. Thoughts?

 

[G. Stache]

G. Stache do you think Mewtwo has a winning matchup against Luigi now? I always thought so, and now we have some high level evidence

Dude, let's be honest. I don't think Luigi actually has that many -2 match ups, but Mewtwo is looking like one. He's like Megaman: he just has everything Luigi doesn't like. Certainly doable...but if M2 starts to be on the high rise in the near future, then I won't hesitate to pull out a pocket Mario (he does win against Mewtwo...right?). That being said, ConCon has a knack for approaching match ups incorrectly (Samus) and is a very hot/cold player using a very momentum based character. He was starting to get real cold against Void at the end...and he was probably playing a bit too much on the edge against Mewtwo. I still personally think it's a pretty bad MU for Luigi (again, around -2)...but I'd also like to see ConCon learn the MU and kind of 'be in his zone' or so to speak.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Add CLOUD to that too.

This I cannot understand. Maybe people who main characters who aren't Ganon aren't familiar with the concept of being lamed out, but giving Cloud the ability to charge for free on the moving platform doesn't exactly strike me as a winning strategy.

 

[Y2Kay]

Dude, let's be honest. I don't think Luigi actually has that many -2 match ups, but Mewtwo is looking like one. He's like Megaman: he just has everything Luigi doesn't like. Certainly doable...but if M2 starts to be on the high rise in the near future, then I won't hesitate to pull out a pocket Mario (he does win against Mewtwo...right?). That being said, ConCon has a knack for not approaching match ups correctly (Samus) and is a very hot/cold player using a very momentum based character. He was starting to get real cold against Void at the end...and he was probably playing a bit too much on the edge against Mewtwo. I still personally think it's a pretty bad MU for Luigi (again, around -2)...but I'd also like to see ConCon learn the MU and kind of 'be in his zone' or so to speak.

Mario fairs a little better, but don't be suprised if it ends in a losing matchup too.

Mewtwo's speed and range gives the other bro trouble too

 

[ligersandtigons]

When talking about the best aerials, there are many factors to consider. IMO, the best aireal would be a get off me option, a combo starter, and a high damaging move.
Edit 'd thanks m2 chainz for saying the same :D
Are there any characters with aerials like that?

Falco's back air is frame 4, can combo and has high KO potential as well

 

[Pancracio17]

Mewtwo is so scary now, i love it. On the subject of pokemon isnt greninja like top tier now? His gatekeeper is gone (or is much easier to deal with) and he has a exceptional MU spread as ive heard.

 

[TurboLink]

Link's up air does not work on a character with terrible air speed and air acceleration.

 

[NairWizard]

Cloud's recovery isn't free at all for most of the cast; I believe Shaya outlined in an earlier post how many characters could feasibly get consistent edgeguards on Cloud, and the list turned out to be quite short. Recovery is about more than the distance of your up-b and whether or not it autosnaps. Cloud's very good at simply drifting back to the stage, both because his n-air covers so much space so quickly and because his air speed is good (especially in Limit), and this is a vital part of recovery. Most of the time he can just recover without even using his up-b, and if he has to use it to avoid getting tilted or something he can be close enough to the ledge to invoke his same-level autosnap.

With his good double jump and weight he can make it difficult to force him to recover low, so he'll be Climhazzarding to the ledge from above it, which is very difficult to punish because the hitbox for Climhazzard is so big/good. You saw Nairo ledge trump m2k in this situation to get an edgeguard at Shots Fired 2, but this isn't reliable once it's a known option; that worked because of the element of surprise (m2k could have buffered a getup option).

Cloud has a solid recovery, and in the average smash match (if you aren't predictable/silly with your recovery choices) he won't be getting gimped even once. It may happen once in a set, or maybe a little more depending on the matchup, but it's not quite the same as Little Mac's situation.

On the other hand, he's not weakness-free. Interestingly enough, @Radical Larry got it right when he said that Cloud's biggest weakness is to shields. (for anyone not noticing, Larry's posts have been a lot better lately so if you're just ignoring him like always now might be a good time to give him the time of day)

I've made the argument before that to some extent, everyone is weak to shield, but Cloud in particular has fewer options for conditioning an opponent not to shield than most, especially since he lacks true throw followups with the exception of Limit charge. If you look at most of his moveset, he commits pretty hard in neutral, and a cautious, grounded, shield-heavy player can make him seem pretty bad in that state. Although good as reactionary options, Cloud's n-air, d-tilt, f-tilt, and up-tilt are not safe at all against block, and f-air is slow enough that you can force Cloud into having to use n-air instead in most situations. His jab transitions (and thus jab mixups) are also just slow enough to be meh against block, although iirc jab2 is pretty safe if perfectly spaced/timed.

d-air, as good as it is, is actually super punishable even if you use the autocancels; it's just that you can't punish it at the end of the animation like you can with most moves. It lingers for a long time so the way to punish d-air is to get out of the way and hit Cloud while he's still in the d-air animation. It's like Trifroze (and earlier @san. ) said. You punish d-air with a pivot grab or ranged aerial like ZSS b-air.

The only safe/applicable move that Cloud has in neutral against block is b-air, which is f11. f11 isn't always reactable but he gives you some obvious cues if he's about to b-air--for instance being turned away from you and also being in the air, so actually in practice the better players will be able to react to it and powershield it. Anticipation is a strong tool that sharpens reaction time.

Mobility can help mitigate the weakness to shield somewhat, but Cloud's aerial acceleration is also nothing impressive (0.06 is bottom half of the cast), and his airspeed is just 1.1, so he's not going to get a lot of crossups or weave/drift baits on you, and his tomahawk is just not scary.

This is all when he's not in Limit, though. When Cloud is in Limit he's amazing, even against shield! He's going to cross you up with a million moves, punish you from half the stage away with his great mobility (his airspeed and accel are both very good when he has access to Limit, and his gravity for fastfaller mixups), and just generally be a better character than you in most situations.

This is why for Cloud taking some damage or giving up positional advantage in order to charge Limit is often beneficial. Cloud is just a thoroughly mediocre character without Limit, even before taking into account his recovery. He can stuff approaches as long as you're not approaching with shield, like all ranged swordsmen, but that doesn't make him top tier. But in Limit, he's not just top tier but maybe a tier even above that.

Because Limit Cloud is so good and nonLimit Cloud is so meh, Limit Cross Slash, the move that pushes Cloud "over the edge," is actually significantly weaker than it would otherwise be, because using it and whiffing puts Cloud in a really bad "I can't do much to you again for a while again unless I choose to get beat up" situation. So Cloud has to play pretty cautiously with LCS; he can't just throw it out there on a feel like a lot of Cloud players are relying on now, at least if he wants to be in Limit to deal properly with shields (which people need to utilize more against him). And in the meantime while he's hanging on to Limit he can be thrown offstage and be made to use Limit Climhazzard.

--incidentally, going for the toss offstage instead of perhaps a more directly lucrative combo throw in these situations may be something players start doing (actually it's something you can be doing to Cloud at all %s and even in non-Limit; even if his recovery is good, the *chance* of gimping him is often better than the guaranteed damage you'd get from doing a combo throw)--

Also, his disadvantage is rather mediocre, if you can get around d-air. n-air is f5 but it starts behind him so face off with Cloud, avoid d-air, punish his landing. You have to be precise and lab the timing for your character. Can't just go on your gut. Diddy should be able to punish d-air with a f-air or banana toss pretty consistently, for instance.

Cloud definitely has some limitations. He may be in fact be #1 in the game due to matchups, but I think he's manageable for the other top tiers, at the very least. This is in stark contrast to prepatch Sheik who had absolutely no weaknesses to speak of due to a 50:50 out of a f27-FAF standing grab (lol, "spotdodge" you say!?) that patched up her difficulty securing the stock.

 

[Shaya]

Tyrant and Void having their 10th game of grand finals right now with Tyrant starting in losers and being a stock ahead in this last game.


And he took it!

Close games a lot of the time, but Tyrant took control solidly in all the games he won, usually with a large lead.
MK can jump out/avoid essentially all of Sheik's traps she finds from grabs now, MK can jump off the ledge with fair and not be completely screwed, seemingly can contest sheik horizontally with down air and neutral air.
Haven't seen an MK get away with staying in the air this long since Brawl.

Can't wait to see what happens next time~

https://www.twitch.tv/2ggaming/v/55879081
Grand finals starting around 3:50

watch the post tournament interview with Tyrant, very detailed insight on A LOT of things

 

[ReRaze]

Mewtwo is so scary now, i love it. On the subject of pokemon isnt greninja like top tier now? His gatekeeper is gone (or is much easier to deal with) and he has a exceptional MU spread as ive heard.

My guess would be that it goes something along the lines of: He has nothing holding his back and does relatively well across the board but he doesn't really have anything outstanding enough to really push him into top tier. he doesn't really overwhelm anybody (besides bottom tier chars) like the top tiers do.

 

[Amadeus9]

Tyrant tho.

I called this a few pages back. The Mk sheik mu is effectively even now. (or mk favor!)

Sheik cant kill off a read, then mk can just dash attack upb, or catch her out with bair.

Damn I had my doubts but, MK is livin. Maybe top 5?

That might be a bit ahead of myself, but sorry, my adrenaline is pumping. I popped off hard, I prob woke up my whole state

Edit: oh, something a little more constructive.

Mks fair buffs are substantial. Its actually a viable ledge getup move now, like what.

 

[thehard]

That GFs was incredibly hype and I'd like to remind everyone that that was a result of NERFS.

Sheik and MK are just allowed to be so much more dynamic now, more risks can be taken. More tools can be used. Both already smart players were forced to play smarter. I'm literally gonna bop anyone who thinks otherwise.

http://oddshot.tv/shot/2ggaming-2016032262158692

 

[Trifroze]

I don't think winning vs Sheik after 1.1.5 necessarily means anything else than Sheik now being down there with the rest of top/high tiers.

She now stands as the best example of how survivability and killing ability shouldn't be underestimated when weighing the capability of a character. Pikachu will likely never actually be top tier because he's lacking in both departments, and I highly doubt Mewtwo still has the sufficient reward to make up for his risk either, in fact at this point his viability is pretty much directly proportional to his weight to the point where him being a midweight would mean him being a top tier. Just painting the picture here though, never expecting anything close to that actually happening in terms of buffs.

Sheik used to have decent overall survivability and killing ability, and with her amazing neutral and damage racking it was enough to make her the best character in the game. Think about that for a second though, it kinda describes how strong your other tools need to be for you to be a top threat if your overall dying/killing ratio isn't anything special.

 

[Deleted member 269706]

I'd really like to hear some elaboration on this opinion because it's something I never expected to hear.

The way I see it: ZSS has high aerial speed and mobility, one of the highest mid air jumps in the game and one of the best airdodges in the game, but most importantly she has three distinct specials for recovery. Side b is the longest tether in the game that you can either pull yourself in with immediately, wait for a good while before doing so or cancel it completely into her other recovery options, and you can use it in reverse. Down b is a moderate speed command jump with decent invincibility where you have considerable control over its distance, essentially giving you a third jump and the option to recover high in most scenarios especially if you use it before expending your mid air jump. Up b is there for low recovery, and while its distance is nothing special, it hits above the ledge and autosnaps, and combined with her mid air jump you can go pretty much as deep as you want with it.

Additionally it's very rare to see ZSS players getting gimped, and when you do it's usually because they made an input error, took too big of a risk on an edgeguard or autopiloted back to the ledge the same way over and over (I know the last one happens to myself when I don't focus).

If you asked me what's the best thing about ZSS right now it's probably her disadvantage as a whole, including the ability to escape combos, recover and get back to the stage from the ledge. Your latter point about powershielding making things hard for her is completely true though.

Truth is, I was trying to make a point in that post that every top tier character had some sort of weakness which reminds us that they aren't untouchable nor perfect, so I didn't put a whole lot of thought into it when I wrote it. There was probably something better to bring up for ZSS but the deed is done. However, I will do my best to back up whatever it was I said. I was mainly referring to her Boost Kick recovery in the (rare but not unseen) event that she needs to use it. The move itself only has so much range so it's pretty obvious when the user is going to throw it out. To my knowledge the move has no intangibility frames meaning she can be spiked or hit out of it. Flip kick is only intangible until frame 12 iirc so hitting her out of that is pretty simple. I know I've spiked ZSS players out of flip kick so it's also exploitable.

With that said you're right, her recovery isn't bad, and I hope you didn't get the impression that's what I was trying to convey. Though I would still argue that her recovery is exploitable and predictable to some extent. I definitely could have worded it better/brought up a bigger weakness but what's done is done. Hope that cleared things up a little bit. (btw - big fan of your old Falcon vids!)

 

[New_Dumal]

I'm really surprised with Cloud being discussed as #1 now.
I don't think he isn't quite good, but I really believe people are overating him too much.

His recovery is not awful, but it is exploitable.
Mr.R played against Cloud quite well and I believe he will still show that Sheik x Cloud is in Sheik favor, even after the nerf.
And I'm someone who dropped Sheik after 1.1.5. Still, I can't believe Cloud win this MU, as some others.
It's true he is a great option against a lot of high tier characters, but I read here about how great he is against Diddy, and I want to know all reasons why, because I can't see him that powerfull.
Villager is another character that I really believe have nice tools against Cloud, and at least a close-to-even MU.

The truth is: the meta and the characters potential is very hard to analyze at this moment.
We got characters that will improve so much now after their bad MU's are easier because buffs/nerfs.
I want to know what's about Ryu too... Ryu still has a pretty STRONG and fast setup to kill + nice framedata.
It's true he has range issues, but I think he is almost certainly top 3.

(In my honest opinion: , , , and maybe are all possibly better than .)

 

[Amadeus9]

I'm really surprised with Cloud being discussed as #1 now.
I don't think he isn't quite good, but I really believe people are overating him too much.

His recovery is not awful, but it is exploitable.
Mr.R played against Cloud quite well and I believe he will still show that Sheik x Cloud is in Sheik favor, even after the nerf.
And I'm someone who dropped Sheik after 1.1.5. Still, I can't believe Cloud win this MU, as some others.
It's true he is a great option against a lot of high tier characters, but I read here about how great he is against Diddy, and I want to know all reasons why, because I can't see him that powerfull.
Villager is another character that I really believe have nice tools against Cloud, and at least a close-to-even MU.

The truth is: the meta and the characters potential is very hard to analyze at this moment.
We got characters that will improve so much now after their bad MU's are easier because buffs/nerfs.
I want to know what's about Ryu too... Ryu still has a pretty STRONG and fast setup to kill + nice framedata.
It's true he has range issues, but I think he is almost certainly top 3.

(In my honest opinion: , , , and maybe are all possibly better than .)

Pika? of all characters? Can you explain why?

(also ill reserve judgement on mk>cloud, for now)

 

[epicnights]

Link's up air does not work on a character with terrible air speed and air acceleration.

Correction: Link's up air is BUSTED on a character without terrible air speed and air acceleration.

Imagine Cloud's up air. Pretty good, right? Now imagine adding 11 extra frames of duration for a total of 30 frames, making the sourspot as strong as the current sweetspot, then adding 3% of damage to the current sweetspot. That's what happens when you give Link's up air to a character with good air mobility.

 

[Amadeus9]

Correction: Link's up air is BUSTED on a character without terrible air speed and air acceleration.

Imagine Cloud's up air. Pretty good, right? Now imagine adding 11 extra frames of duration for a total of 30 frames, making the sourspot as strong as the current sweetspot, then adding 3% of damage to the current sweetspot. That's what happens when you give Link's up air to a character with good air mobility.

Except that clouds upair has minimal landing lag, acs, and combos into itself. None of these things, Link's uair does.

Oh also the hitbox covers cloud head to toe

Honestly just dont compare moves in a vacuum like this

 

[New_Dumal]

Pika? of all characters? Can you explain why?

(also ill reserve judgement on mk>cloud, for now)

Pikachu have better combo-game, better recovery, better mobility at many stages,a better projectile, and is one of the best characters at edgeguard.I don't think Pikachu is someone to be #1 at all, because I think he lacks something he is really overwhelming, and his options to kill are not that great.
But Pikachu is in my book the definition of a solid character. You can play safe as hell in the majority of MU's and build fast damage. The lack of optimal ways to kill really hurts him, and it's sad to see that sometimes it comes to a UThrow against a Sheik. Pika x Sheik was worse for him than everybody talks about in my opinion, and with Sheik losing the 50/50, he got one less complex MU to face.

Now that I'm not playing Sheik, I'm maining MK with the famous "pocket Cloud".
What I think about him is that he is incredible at killing, spacing around, and invoke bad approaches.
His recovery is something I think the meta will slowly punish more and more, and that early kills (side b offstage kills are a example) will become not as common.

Pikachu is solid. I think Sheik was a threat against him, and it's done.
I think is impossible to say Pikachu is the best character at the game, but I think he can (I believe he is) better than Cloud.
Bayonetta is a wild card I don't even... after all this time I'm not decided about her yet.

 

[bc1910]

@Browny I think Falcon was a bit high and MK was a bit low, but I really like the upper part of your list (didn't look at mid and below since as we know it's just too hard to order).

My guess would be that it goes something along the lines of: He has nothing holding his back and does relatively well across the board but he doesn't really have anything outstanding enough to really push him into top tier. he doesn't really overwhelm anybody (besides bottom tier chars) like the top tiers do.

Mario doesn't really overwhelm anyone and he's had consistently stellar results since release.

As it happens, Greninja's mobility + projectile + Fair wall can be overwhelming for certain low tiers to approach. This isn't important though. And I agree he doesn't have the overwhelming strengths of the tippy top 5/6 (not sure about Sheik right now). He's comparable to the level below that though.

I don't think Greninja is top tier in the current meta but there aren't many reasons why he couldn't get there. Down to the players now IMO. I'm reasonably convinced that he's 15th behind the established top 14 as of this patch. It's either him or Corrin. Don't know if anyone caught Scizor playing last weekend but he made Greninja look scary.

 

[FallofBrawl]

Pika never had a bad MU with Sheik, arguably the only even MU with Sheik prepatch.

The reason why Pika isn't rated as highly as he was back then is because of his lack of results, poor kill confirms in a meta where it's getting important, and hard time vs the upsmash bros/Game and Watch and Ness.

Cloud is better than him for sure, at least for now. I can't think of a character that outright just ***** on him, plus the players at the forefront of the Cloud meta are just superb.

 

[New_Dumal]

I know that Pika x Sheik MU was always debated as arguably even.
But it's something I never really believed.
The Sheik's DThrow setup, combined with his weight, was much more powerfull to confirm a kill than Pikachu's UThrow->Thunder, even if they share a similar concept. Sheik's Nair was quite strong against Pikachu at general, and hurts his quick attack gameplay.
The Pika x Sheik MU... ESAM said Pikachu x MK was arguably even at Brawl.

Cloud representation is indeed strong. Cloud players can try to learn from the most experienced smash bros player around, M2K.
But ESAM proved to be a threat before at majors and showed us amazing gameplay from Pika too.
I don't like Pikachu and ESAM is far away from being my fav player, so I'm truly not biased about it, I just think Pikachu is quite solid and maybe better than Cloud. Again, as I said before, is really hard to analyze characters potential right now.
I can understand why you think Cloud is better, but you can't deny Pikachu have a lot of awesome stuff, and his unique big problem is the poor kill confirms, while Cloud is stronger at what he got.

 

[Ghostbone]

Pikachu isn't even a top 10 character, the kill power isn't there (off usable moves in neutral, smashes don't count). Unlike a character like fox who actually has confirms into u-smash and a fast run speed to catch landings, pikachu is only hitting you for super obviously rolls or dropping shield at the wrong time. ESAM relies a lot on people being too afraid of thunder, and so he gets an air-dodge read into it when you can just air-dodge it on reaction (the thunder, not the cloud), and people being terrible at teching bair when it's pretty easy cos the last hit has so much hitlag.

Aside from that, jolt is not a great projectile. If we're specifically talking about Cloud vs Pikachu, Cloud doesn't care if you spam jolts, he'll just charge limit and powershield them all. He outcamps pikachu regardless of the specific blade beam vs thunderjolt comparison.

Pikachu's only relevant trait is his wonky hurtbox during the endlag of a lot moves accompanied by a low stature in general. But that's basically only relevant when you don't have the matchup experience.

 

[Locke 06]

Re Sheik nerfs:
Having played half a game vs Cacogen yesterday (and watching him play doubles), I think it's way to soon to say anything. He played very vanilla and safe, I did the same, as we tried to feel each other out. And then we got interrupted. Sheik still does well / can net kills with BF landing traps setup by all of the moves that grant her that positional advantage. And her ledge game is still amazing.

Talking to him after, he's still exploring the altered tools, as all Sheik's are. They have to relearn their character, so me punishing a whiffed fthrow>BF is meaningless in terms of the matchup. As stated before, Sheik's reward on grab has been gutted so hard that grabs are no longer optimal at certain %'s. Caco fishes for dtilt>up air atm because that's what he knows still works.

I don't think many non-tournament goers understand that it takes more than a week to retrain yourself and adjust. Seeing Sheiks lose and then proclaiming matchups feels like a gross oversimplification of what is really going on.

 

[Shaya]

"theory"
Sheik and Zero Suit probably still have advantages over Cloud (or at the least still remain two of his worst match ups). They like not dying at 110% to up air just as much as everyone else. They can take advantage of him off stage, have tools to outspace and outspeed and can apply aggressive pressure. A spread of tools somewhat unique to them (bar maybe Bayonetta, but their off stage games have shown to be notably better thus far *cough* maybe mewtwo too *cough*).

However, Cloud arguably has advantaged match ups with every other character in the game, with still a pretty overwhelming ability or two we all know and love. He may not be deserving of his own tier (or a tier above any of the other nerfed top tiers) - as I think there is a degree of telegraphing inherent in how Cloud plays at this time and he has to work harder to get around it than people give him credit for.
But the sheer tangible value of his strengths and capabilities with the pretty clean cut dominant match up spread (which is hard to deny through tournament evidence thus far before we get towards tippitytop characters) makes him seem easy to place as no.1 by virtue of just standing out more. Similar argument could exist for Bayonetta but Cloud has like 5x as many successful players; given time, maybe that perspective will change. Rosalina didn't get touched and Dabuz is arguably no.2 in the world, pushing her up if that's your dominant line of thought.

Sheik, Zero Suit, Cloud, Bayonetta and Meta Knight got nerfed this patch, and I believe it's very feasible that this was the top 5 of the cast in 1.1.4 (Corrin in my mind was likely a 'brawl dedede'-esque or wifi abuse fix) - we underrate that this means over 50 other characters are having an easier time against some of the most commonly seen and strongest characters in tournaments across the world. Being on top of this "sorry lot" is less prestigious than before and it's easy to think that whatever new number one we have will be just as bad or worse than the previous one (I mean, it's possible) which from what we're seeing is just not the case.

Nerf Sonic though.
Like the invincibility on up-b so at least some more characters in the cast can be rewarded for hitting him off stage~
But not really that necessary; Sonic just seems a lot better when we think about the newly improved match up spread. Also, PTSD of when Sonic was more common as he's one of the more annoying characters in the game to play against.

 

[ReRaze]

Mario doesn't really overwhelm anyone and he's had consistently stellar results since release.


As it happens, Greninja's mobility + projectile + Fair wall can be overwhelming for certain low tiers to approach. This isn't important though. And I agree he doesn't have the overwhelming strengths of the tippy top 5/6 (not sure about Sheik right now). He's comparable to the level below that though.

I don't think Greninja is top tier in the current meta but there aren't many reasons why he couldn't get there. Down to the players now IMO. I'm reasonably convinced that he's 15th behind the established top 14 as of this patch. It's either him or Corrin. Don't know if anyone caught Scizor playing last weekend but he made Greninja look scary.

Wait Mario is top tier? *double checks tier list*
Mario kinda overwhelms characters with his CQC, somewhere greninja struggles, like isn't the reason Mario does well against shiek due to him being able to match her in frame data? With a great grab game, combo game, frame data and moves that just flow into each other in ways I can't even explain (like seriously if you think about it any of his aerials can combo into any other aerial or tilt). Sure greninja's frame data ain't too bad but grenjina can't dictate in CQC like mario can (correct me if I'm wrong but) if someone get's into greninja's face he would rather run away and reset neutral and approach when he feels like it.

I agree with everything else though, there isn't much holding him back from being in top tier again. Also just to make things clear there is nothing wrong with greninja not being able to fight like Mario, he definitely has the specs/mobility and tools to play the match on his own terms. It's just his terms aren't as, like I said, overwhelming as the other top tiers. I think greninja is definitely better than corrin though, more versatility and corrin doesn't do too well against good campers iirc (shiek, greninja, etc). In terms of combo game, neutral and overall damage output they both have their perks, Grenjinja has a far better recovery though.

 

[bc1910]

Please don't underestimate Sheik's throw nerfs. They are the kind of thing that can kill a character.

Sorry to bring up PSAS again, but when Raiden lost his Level 1 confirm (and all his combos) from throw, he dropped two whole tiers. He then shot back to top tier when he got new combos and kill confirms from throw a few patches later. Throw confirms are a big, big deal.

I'm not suggesting for a second that we're about to see to the death of Sheik, she is still a fantastic character. But she is substantially less threatening at kill percent no matter how you slice it.

Sheik, Zero Suit, Cloud, Bayonetta and Meta Knight got nerfed this patch, and I believe it's very feasible that this was the top 5 of the cast in 1.1.4 (Corrin in my mind was likely a 'brawl dedede'-esque or wifi abuse fix) - we underrate that this means over 50 other characters are having an easier time against some of the most commonly seen and strongest characters in tournaments across the world. Being on top of this "sorry lot" is less prestigious than before and it's easy to think that whatever new number one we have will be just as bad or worse than the previous one (I mean, it's possible) which from what we're seeing is just not the case.

This part of your post is spot on.

I would argue that Rosalina was top 5 over Meta Knight (something something DI) but I think your point is valid. We aren't necessarily seeing a shift in the top 5, they are just weaker than before. And we are seeing new threats that can challenge them.

Wait Mario is top tier? *double checks tier list*
Mario kinda overwhelms characters with his CQC, somewhere greninja struggles, like isn't the reason Mario does well against shiek due to him being able to match her in frame data? With a great grab game, combo game, frame data and moves that just flow into each other in ways I can't even explain (like seriously if you think about it any of his aerials can combo into any other aerial or tilt). Sure greninja's frame data ain't too bad but grenjina can't dictate in CQC like mario can (correct me if I'm wrong but) if someone get's into greninja's face he would rather run away and reset neutral and approach when he feels like it.

I agree with everything else though, there isn't much holding him back from being in top tier again. Also just to make things clear there is nothing wrong with greninja not being able to fight like Mario, he definitely has the specs/mobility and tools to play the match on his own terms. It's just his terms aren't as, like I said, overwhelming as the other top tiers. I think greninja is definitely better than corrin though, more versatility and corrin doesn't do too well against good campers iirc (shiek, greninja, etc). In terms of combo game, neutral and overall damage output they both have their perks, Grenjinja has a far better recovery though.

BR's top tier is laughably small, I wouldn't take it too seriously. It's already outdated anyway. I think we have pretty clear upper top (Bayonetta + Co) and lower top (Mario, Sonic etc) tiers but all are worthy of the "top tier" title.

Oh yeah, Gren's CQC is nowhere near as good as Mario's. Whether he wants to reset to neutral depends on the situation and MU. His CQC is a lot better now that his standing grab isn't reactable. Generally he wants to be playing a mid-range game though. But while he can't dictate CQC I feel he can take stage control better than Mario. Better than most of the cast, in fact.

I feel Corrin only has one way to go on the tier list but it'll be a little while before he settles into his rightful place around 20th.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I don't think there are that many characters that legitimately have the advantage against Sheik but she probably has a ton of even matchups now. Her matchups against Sonic, Fox and Cloud are largely unaffected by the nerfs imho and it's unlikely that she straight-up loses to Diddy Kong or Mario, let alone Pikachu. All of these matchups are probably even [or possibly even still in her favor in Cloud's case].

The two matchups I believe are most affected by her nerfs are vs Rosalina and vs Lucario. The latter might just be a legitimate counter to Sheik now.

Close games a lot of the time, but Tyrant took control solidly in all the games he won, usually with a large lead.
MK can jump out/avoid essentially all of Sheik's traps she finds from grabs now, MK can jump off the ledge with fair and not be completely screwed, seemingly can contest sheik horizontally with down air and neutral air.
Haven't seen an MK get away with staying in the air this long since Brawl.

MK is probably still pretty good. Buffed fair means improved neutral game. Sheik nerf means his only hard counter is easier to deal with. That is a worthy tradeoff for his previously completely overtuned advantaged state. His disadvantaged state is still very good. I honestly wanna say they adjusted him rather than straight-up nerfing him and I'm inclined to think they did it in a good way. He may not be quite as good as he used to be but he seems like a much better designed and overall good character. I can live with this.

"theory"
Sheik and Zero Suit probably still have advantages over Cloud (or at the least still remain two of his worst match ups). They like not dying at 110% to up air just as much as everyone else. They can take advantage of him off stage, have tools to outspace and outspeed and can apply aggressive pressure. A spread of tools somewhat unique to them (bar maybe Bayonetta, but their off stage games have shown to be notably better thus far *cough* maybe mewtwo too *cough*).

I think she'll still be able to beat Cloud because she hasn't lost any of the tools that allow her to compete with him onstage and she can still get her kills via gimps.

 

[Ninety]

Maybe it's just me, but I'm skeptical about Greninja and Mewtwo. Don't get me wrong, they're both fun as hell and I love them, but I can't help but feel their mains are overrating their post-patch standing. Like, I understand the buffs are useful, but I'm seeing aspirations of top 15 left and right, people calling Greninja a Bayonetta counter, and even Mewtwo being top tier, out of nothing but theorycraft. Maybe I'm wrong, and they're deserving of every accolade, but I'll buy into the hype when I see the tournament results to back them up and not a moment before.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I don't think anybody has actually called M2 top tier?

There are solid arguments that he *could* be high tier [though I'm personally not sure]. He has the best airdodge and uthrow in the game and his fair and dtilt are like top 3 in the game as well. These are some pretty powerful bread and butter options. His nair is pretty amazing now, he has a great projectile that can't really be reflected, a good command grab, powerful KO moves ... there's a lot of points in his favor.

He's also gotten some pretty nice results during the last week. Won a tournament as a secondary for Abadango's MK, Luigi_player got second pretty much entirely with Mewtwo at a local tournament on Friday and Rich Brown just took 4th at a SoCal tournament with solo Mewtwo. There's definitely a chance for him to snatch a high-tier spot now.

 

[bc1910]

I guess 2nd at BEAST 6 counts for nothing. You know, that mini-major where Greninja was double eliminated by pre-patch Sheik.

We need to see Greninja on a supermajor stage but the potential is there.

No-one is calling M2 top tier either. I agree with you that we need to see more from him though.

 

[Shaya]

So, in theory -
Sheik's fair having range nerfed
but Meta Knight having forward air become 4 frames safer (-13 now)
suddenly may make this match up not as disastrous?
Who knows.

Page 150 vs your crappy 155. I could probably find a quote of myself in relation to Sheik/ZSS vs Cloud too (because I've thought that since the patch dropped) but I don't remember an instance offhand.
Don't play this game with me Gheb!!!!


At the same time I could see the Sheik/Pika match up finally moving towards even... if ESAM drops the ball against Sheik still I'll be laughing though, because I'm still a tad skeptical on that idea.
It seems like we used to have a lot more "big" tournaments at this time last year though; perhaps because of ZeRo's general absence but it feels as if the opportunity to finally shout "pika sucks, you must see it now!!!" is firmly out of reach until like... Evo. This 'lacking' sensation being amplified by the fact the game has changed a lot since Genesis.

I wonder if Bayo and Cloud will have their fair share at the next biggie (it doesn't even need Japan there, where's the real US nationals at?)

 

[ぱみゅ]

Time for another #Opinion list
Very preliminary though.

Spoiler

Basically, to perform well against her your character needs: good projectile zoning, safe poking game and able to threat her with grabs (good burst range and/or good positioning and/or reward).
I think ZSS and Sheik belong on the "at least even" range but with the new nerfs I am not too sure anymore.
Also, Cloud belongs there as well but I didn't notice and I'm too lazy to remake the picture.

 

[wpwood]

I saw someone mention Palutena's fair as a contender for, maybe not the best, but a top fair. All of Palutena's aerials are amazing.

Fair is frame 9 but has a decent auto cancel window and can string into itself, and thanks to the new patch is +2 on shield iirc. This is probably one of the best poke tools in the game, even more now thanks to the buffs. It can combo into DA or grab at low-mid % and grab will stop working before DA does.

Bair has frame 3 invincibility and the hit box comes out 1 frame faster than fair. However, bair has less range than fair. It auto cancels when buffered in a short hop and can kill. Nothing is better than challenging other moves with bair and winning.

Uair is a very strong kill move that has confirms on some characters on down throw; combined with her fast run speed and aerial speed this is her easiest kill option.

Dair is probably her weakest aerial but has some use. It is active only on frame 10 and sends grounded opponents at a 45 degree angle behind her, which at low %s can combo into bair or maybe even a grab. The spike is pretty strong and can work like Falcon's and hit through the stage if timed right.

Thank you daddy Sakurai for nair buffs. This move comes out from 5 and can finally kill offstage, and I don't remember the exact % is killed at before, but it feels like it kills maybe 15%-20% sooner. On floaties it can kill more vertical than horizontal, but if you catch someone offstage at a decent % they'll probably die from the move. Nair combos into nair at low % with bad DI on some and true on others, and thanks to the damage buff that's a good amount of damage. If the opponent DIs correctly then she can follow up with up air instead. The 1% death is when the move semi-spikes because only 1 or 2 hits land. I think all multi-hit moves can semispike in this game so Palutena's nair works as a good edge guard tool as well.

Who needs tilts when you have good aerials and up smash

 

[Diddy Kong]

lets start talking about meaningful things.

I'll start;

Diddy vs cloud MU I hear is stupidly annoying for diddy mains according to Diddy Kong . But I think it's hard for them only because they can't spam Fair all day and now they have a character that beats out their normals. Of course, limit always plays a part in making everyone approach cloud, but I think that's a psychological thing going there that cloud is putting you at the disadvantage the moment the game starts. He's in the corner, not throwing out a dang thing, and you're approaching him with all the options ready to play with his mind (not to mention with a banana in hand, that's scary). I feel like diddy mains will have to shield a little more than often to stop cloud's assault and stuff, but that's the nature of swordsmen; that's how you make them stop spamming aerials. If they whiff or hit your shield (the closer you are, the more disadvantage they have), they're at a frame disadvantage. That's grab time and diddy has nice reward off of grab.

Some stuff I thought up.

True, true. It's extremely hard to adapt vs Cloud as Diddy, he takes a whole different strategy to fight than basically ANYONE. Even pre-patch Sheik was easier, WAY easier. Why? We wheren't outspaced as hard, and she also had genuine problems killing off, a trait we shared. Diddy vs Sheik was always an extremely dynamic match up, Diddy vs Cloud is way different.

I'd also rather not keep my shield raised too much vs Cloud, cause I just don't want him to get an extra Limit Break. And our way of approaching is easily countered by Cloud's mobility and range. And again, Blade Beam is REALLY good to destroy bananas. It might be too slow of a projectile against other characters, but against Diddy and his actual rather slow air speed, it works perfectly. And it's annoying.

F Air indeed also can't be used like in other match ups, and yes this is a problem for us. Much like how Pikachu basically makes our Side B useless. It makes these characters harder to fight. D Tilt is also even risky vs Cloud because of the huge range he has and how close we need to be for the move. So all that's left is going for grabs indeed. And it's not like that's exactly easy. You really need to carefully watch every move. Like a lion trying to hunt an elephant or something... That's how this matchup feels.

I do think Diddy beats Bayonetta however.

 

[arbustopachon]

Who needs tilts when you have good aerials and up smash

(though i guess her u-smash isn't really that good).

Silly aerials? Zard's new bair is -6 on shieldrop, kills earlier than ganon's bair and fair at the edge of the stage (the only aerials that kill earlier than it are the knee and zelda's kicks), has a disjoint, has massive range and is not that slow at frame 14. Also unlike the lightning kicks the sourspots are not utter garbage.
Zard's mediocre air speed keeps this move on check, it would be hilariously broken on someone with a decent air speed.

 

[Nabbitnator]

is bayonetta's worst matchup.

Shadow sneak hit stun cancel allows him to cut the damage from her ridiculous combos. Though he likes having access to his short hop game, his dash grab easily punishes any attempt to use bullet climax on stage. He also can use hydro pump to zip around her down smash at the ledge. Finally, he has a strong projectile and grab game so he can work around witch time.

It's funny how people complain about how bayo ruins the meta and is unstoppable when there exists a natural counteer to her on the roster.

Speaking of hydro pump. Is it possible to screw up bayonetta's dive kick with it?