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Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

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Diddy Kong

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Don't know what you're doing other than trying to rushdown Cloud.
Getting outspaced, any sort of rushdown is prevented with a huge ass blade that's way too fast for it's size, and then you get hit by Limit Break moves that do way more damage than a whole combo of your own can do, and on top of that, getting killed much, MUCH earlier than I can kill...

Really, any sort of damage done against Cloud he can just do it back to you easily by outspacing you, or a Limit Break attack. It's quite disheartening that just one move can do more damage than a whole combo. Speaking of combos, Cloud is ridiculously hard to combo for some reason.
 

TTTTTsd

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Cloud is ridiculously hard to combo for some reason.
The only thing stopping you is Dair but considering you're Diddy you're not too worried as most of your conversions come from Nanner and Grab to my knowledge.

He's combo'd almost as bad as Roy he just has a Dair in case people get incredibly greedy. He's a fastfaller through and through however it's a LOT easier to combo Limit Cloud.
 

Peppermint1201

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so Olimar seems to have had a good weekend, doing well in the Midwest and Florida with Greenbeast and Myran respectively.
 

Big-Cat

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Getting outspaced, any sort of rushdown is prevented with a huge *** blade that's way too fast for it's size, and then you get hit by Limit Break moves that do way more damage than a whole combo of your own can do, and on top of that, getting killed much, MUCH earlier than I can kill...

Really, any sort of damage done against Cloud he can just do it back to you easily by outspacing you, or a Limit Break attack. It's quite disheartening that just one move can do more damage than a whole combo. Speaking of combos, Cloud is ridiculously hard to combo for some reason.
Then don't rush him.
 

WritersBlah

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In regards to discussing the potential #1 spot in the new patch, I find it interesting that though three big characters are being looked at (:4bayonetta::4cloud::rosalina:) most of the complaints on here totally gloss over Rosalina, mostly because Cloud handles the matchup really well. I think this is partly due to the fact that very few people actually devote the time to learning Rosalina, and thus she's not nearly as common in bracket. It is because of this however, that I wonder, does Rosalina actually have the stats to be considered the current #1? Is her matchup spread really better than Cloud's, or even Bayonetta's? Rosa might be the single top tier left untouched by this patch, but her matchup spread was never quite as consistent as Sheik's or Zero Suit's. So, can anyone actually prove to me that Rosa might have a better matchup spread than Cloud or Bayonetta?
 

Jalil

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In regards to discussing the potential #1 spot in the new patch, I find it interesting that though three big characters are being looked at (:4bayonetta::4cloud::rosalina:) most of the complaints on here totally gloss over Rosalina, mostly because Cloud handles the matchup really well. I think this is partly due to the fact that very few people actually devote the time to learning Rosalina, and thus she's not nearly as common in bracket. It is because of this however, that I wonder, does Rosalina actually have the stats to be considered the current #1? Is her matchup spread really better than Cloud's, or even Bayonetta's? Rosa might be the single top tier left untouched by this patch, but her matchup spread was never quite as consistent as Sheik's or Zero Suit's. So, can anyone actually prove to me that Rosa might have a better matchup spread than Cloud or Bayonetta?
Her mu spread was never as good as other top tiers, it's her results and the amazing players backing her that keep her where she is. Tho I do think she's a lil overrated
 
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Emblem Lord

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Bayo makes the game better.

I would rather die to her then bull**** MK in Brawl, Melee Falco or pre-patch Diddy.

All characters with absolutely mindless neutral and stupid good reward for basic nonsense.
 

Das Koopa

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Melee Falco actually takes skill

PJSalt
 

sedrf

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Seagull can you explain?
:4cloud2: and :rosalina: will be the one's winning tournaments.
Eventually all top tiers ,but rosa gets nerfed.
Then we end up in the same situation like in melee where jigglypuff was banned for a short time
 
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Fex13

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Sep 7, 2014
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Bayo makes the game better.

I would rather die to her then bull**** MK in Brawl, Melee Falco or pre-patch Diddy.

All characters with absolutely mindless neutral and stupid good reward for basic nonsense.
from a casual stand point she made the game better. cause its bayo, and its nice to have her in smash.
but from a competitive standpoint, the combination of being very good and encouraging lame gameplay (cause one mistake gg) isnt very fortunate.
 

Das Koopa

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Before we descend into the Salt Mines I'd just like to recap this weekend's results.

March 16th-20th post-1.1.5 Patch Regional results:

Shockwave Plano 76 (March 16th) (Regional)

1st: Karna (Sheik)
2nd: Awestin (Ness)
3rd: Denti (Cloud)
4th: Cosmos (Corrin)
5th: Gyo (R.O.B.)
5th: Sassy (R.O.B.)
7th: Dakpo (Zero Suit Samus)
7th: YellowRello (Yoshi)
9th: P2P With Gibus (Greninja)
9th: Aerolink (Bayonetta)
9th: CalmAnimal (Bowser)
9th: Phenom (Fox)
13th: Deezus (Ryu)
13th: Mew^2 (Mewtwo)
13th: Johan (Robin)
13th: LiLPac (Little Mac)

Austin is Really Feeling It 12 (March 19th?) (Regional)
1st: Trela (Ryu)
2nd:Grim Turtle (Bayonetta)
3rd: Megafox (Fox)
4th: Mew^2 (Mewtwo)
5th: Asa (Ness)
5th: Gnes (Toon Link, Marth)
7th: Aerolink (Bayonetta)
7th: Dakpo (ZSS, Luigi)
9th: YellowRello (Yoshi)
9th: Denti (Cloud)
9th: HaKii (Lucas)
9th: Espy (Sonic)
13th: LiLPac (Little Mac)
13th: Lucy (Toon Link)
13th: KJ (Cloud)
13th: iiGGy (Bayonetta)


Hirosuma 3 (March 19th) (Regional)

1st: Ikep (Bayonetta)
2nd: Wasubi (Wario, Mario)
3rd: 9B (Bayonetta)
4th: Ri-Ma (Toon Link)
5th: FILIP (Mario)
5th: Lagnel (Cloud, Zero Suit Samus)
7th: Mizero (Bayonetta, Peach)
7th: Ron (Luigi, Mario)
9th: Karoegu (Pikachu)
9th: Shimitake (Pikachu)
9th: Depuzo (King Dedede)
9th: Persia (???)
13th: Zoma (Mewtwo)
13th: Lickey (Meta Knight)
13th: Yassan (Zero Suit Samus)
13th: Sushi (???)


Midwest Mayhem (March 19th) (Regional)

1st: Ally (Mario, R.O.B)
2nd: Mr. R. (Sheik)
3rd: Tyroy (Bayonetta, Meta Knight)
4th: Hyuga (Toon Link)
5th: Zinoto (Diddy Kong)
5th: Nite (Rosalina)
7th: Greenbeast (Olimar)
7th: MJG (Villager, Toon Link)
9th: Dan (Mario)
9th: Shel (Luigi)
9th: Akiro (Sheik)
9th: JJROCKETS (Diddy Kong)
13th: Ned (Zero Suit Samus)
13th: BoScotty (R.O.B., Peach)
13th: Ruins (Fox)
13th: Nero (Pikachu)


Final Round 19 (March 18th-20th) (Regional)

1st: Anti (Mario, Zero Suit Samus, Sheik)
2nd: Scatt (Mega Man, Cloud)
3rd: Fatality (Captain Falcon)
4th: LordMix (Bowser)
5th: Wrath (Sonic)
5th: Oni Day (Lucario)
7th: Player-1 (Diddy Kong)
7th: Rango (Ike)


Come to Papa (March 19th) (Regional)

1st: MVD (Diddy Kong)
2nd: Ryo (Corrin, Ike)
3rd: Myran (Olimar)
4th: Master Raven (Sheik)
5th: Dyr (Diddy Kong)
5th: Heero/Static Manny (Sonic)
7th: Riot (Donkey Kong, Bayonetta)
7th: Dath (Robin)
9th: Purple Guy (Sheik, Zelda)
9th: Poltergust (Yoshi)
9th: TrueBlue (Sonic)
9th: RoguePenguin (Mario)
13th: Sol (Little Mac)
13th: Pthas (Lucario)
13th: Seibrik (Meta Knight)
13th: Xaltis (Rosalina)
 
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Teshie U

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 13, 2013
Messages
1,594
Before we descend into the Salt Mines I'd just like to recap this weekend's results.

March 16th-20th post-1.1.5 Patch Regional results:

Shockwave Plano 76 (March 16th) (Regional)

1st: Karna (Sheik)
2nd: Awestin (Ness)
3rd: Denti (Cloud)
4th: Cosmos (Corrin)
5th: Gyo (R.O.B.)
5th: Sassy (R.O.B.)
7th: Dakpo (Zero Suit Samus)
7th: YellowRello (Yoshi)
9th: P2P With Gibus (Greninja)
9th: Aerolink (Bayonetta)
9th: CalmAnimal (Bowser)
9th: Phenom (Fox)
13th: Deezus (Ryu)
13th: Mew^2 (Mewtwo)
13th: Johan (Robin)
13th: LiLPac (Little Mac)


Hirosuma 3 (March 19th) (Regional)

1st: Ikep (Bayonetta)
2nd: Wasubi (Wario, Mario)
3rd: 9B (Bayonetta)
4th: Ri-Ma (Toon Link)
5th: FILIP (Mario)
5th: Lagnel (Cloud, Zero Suit Samus)
7th: Mizero (Bayonetta, Peach)
7th: Ron (Luigi, Mario)
9th: Karoegu (Pikachu)
9th: Shimitake (Pikachu)
9th: Depuzo (King Dedede)
9th: Persia (???)
13th: Zoma (Mewtwo)
13th: Lickey (Meta Knight)
13th: Yassan (Zero Suit Samus)
13th: Sushi (???)


Midwest Mayhem (March 19th) (Regional)

1st: Ally (Mario, R.O.B)
2nd: Mr. R. (Sheik)
3rd: Tyroy (Bayonetta, Meta Knight)
4th: Hyuga (Toon Link)
5th: Zinoto (Diddy Kong)
5th: Nite (Rosalina)
7th: Greenbeast (Olimar)
7th: MJG (Villager, Toon Link)
9th: Dan (Mario)
9th: Shel (Luigi)
9th: Akiro (Sheik)
9th: JJROCKETS (Diddy Kong)
13th: Ned (Zero Suit Samus)
13th: BoScotty (R.O.B., Peach)
13th: Ruins (Fox)
13th: Nero (Pikachu)


Final Round 19 (March 18th-20th) (Regional)

1st: Anti (Mario, Zero Suit Samus, Sheik)
2nd: Scatt (Mega Man, Cloud)
3rd: Fatality (Captain Falcon)
4th: LordMix (Bowser)
5th: Wrath (Sonic)
5th: Oni Day (Lucario)
7th: Player-1 (Diddy Kong)
7th: Rango (Ike)


Come to Papa (March 19th) (Regional)

1st: MVD (Diddy Kong)
2nd: Ryo (Corrin, Ike)
3rd: Myran (Olimar)
4th: Master Raven (Sheik)
5th: Dyr (Diddy Kong)
5th: Heero/Static Manny (Sonic)
7th: Riot (Donkey Kong, Bayonetta)
7th: Dath (Robin)
9th: Purple Guy (Sheik, Zelda)
9th: Poltergust (Yoshi)
9th: TrueBlue (Sonic)
9th: RoguePenguin (Mario)
13th: Sol (Little Mac)
13th: Pthas (Lucario)
13th: Seibrik (Meta Knight)
13th: Xaltis (Rosalina)
You actually missed (understandably) a much more stacked tournament in TX on saturday. Shockwave is BIG, but its still just a Dallas TX local.

Austin is Really Feeling It (March 19th)
1st: Trela (Ryu)
2nd:Grim Turtle (Bayonetta)
3rd: Megafox (Fox)
4th: Mew^2 (Mewtwo)
5th: Asa (Ness)
5th: Gnes (Toon Link/Marth)
7th: Aerolink (Bayonetta)
7th: Dakpo (ZSS/Luigi)
 

sedrf

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So why does everybody hate bayonetta,cloud and rosalina so much?
 

Seagull Joe

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Bayo makes the game better.

I would rather die to her then bull**** MK in Brawl, Melee Falco or pre-patch Diddy.

All characters with absolutely mindless neutral and stupid good reward for basic nonsense.
Are you saying :4bayonetta: doesn't have good reward for basic nonsense? Up b OoS and Side b rewarding stocks or 30-40% is pretty absurd.
So why does everybody hate bayonetta,cloud and rosalina so much?
I personally do not hate :rosalina: and don't think :4cloud: is broken. Both are good characters with inherent weaknesses. :4bayonetta: just offers such reward for so little. It's kind of infuriating when you play a good one. You can essentially die for 1 mistake at 0.
Seagull can you explain?
:4cloud2: and :rosalina: will be the one's winning tournaments.
Eventually all top tiers ,but rosa gets nerfed.
Then we end up in the same situation like in melee where jigglypuff was banned for a short time
I doubt they will be winning tournaments as easily as it sounds. Those characters require more mastery. I also do not think :jigglypuffmelee: was ever banned. Correct me if I'm wrong. :metaknight: was banned for a brief time period during brawl.
:018:
 
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Thinkaman

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Things currently killing Smash 4:
  • :4cloud:
  • :4bayonetta:
  • :4sheik:
  • Too many patches
  • Not enough patches
  • :4littlemac:'s design
  • :4lucario:'s design
  • Zero
  • :4falcon:'s playstyle
  • :4wario2:'s playstyle
  • Rage
  • :rosalina: vs :4ness:
  • :rosalina: vs anyone
  • :4ness: vs anyone
  • Insufficient e-sports
  • Too much e-sports
  • Changes to :4metaknight:
  • Changes to :4luigi:
  • Something Zero said
  • Anything involving :4zelda:
  • IDIOTS who insist on playing with 2 stocks
  • MORONS who insist on playing with 3 stocks
  • The lack of :4jigglypuff: changes
  • Female-only tournaments
  • A lack of female-only tournaments
  • Bad commentary
  • Twitter, Reddit, and Facebook
  • :4mii::4miibrawl::4miigun::4miisword::4miif:
  • Custom moves
  • Abadango's character preference for the week
  • Sakurai [ANYTHING]
Did I miss anything?

Sweet.

LET'S MOVE ON.
 

Emblem Lord

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Switch FC
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Are you saying :4bayonetta: doesn't have good reward for basic nonsense? Up b OoS and Side b rewarding stocks or 30-40% is pretty absurd.

I personally do not hate :rosalina: and don't think :4cloud: is broken. Both are good characters with inherent weaknesses. :4bayonetta: just offers such reward for so little. It's kind of infuriating when you play a good one. You can essentially die for 1 mistake at 0.

:018:
I like Bayo for the same reason I like Ryu.

Tired of ass gobblers running around in neutral pressing buttons for free and when I SEE what they are doing, not getting a punish half the time or my risk is sometimes even greater then their risk is. Mario and his dair comes to mind.

If I know wtf you are going to do, then you should die for being so predictable and so pitifully weak.
 
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Seagull Joe

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Things currently killing Smash 4:
  • :4cloud:
  • :4bayonetta:
  • :4sheik:
  • Too many patches
  • Not enough patches
  • :4littlemac:'s design
  • :4lucario:'s design
  • Zero
  • :4falcon:'s playstyle
  • :4wario2:'s playstyle
  • Rage
  • :rosalina: vs :4ness:
  • :rosalina: vs anyone
  • :4ness: vs anyone
  • Insufficient e-sports
  • Too much e-sports
  • Changes to :4metaknight:
  • Changes to :4luigi:
  • Something Zero said
  • Anything involving :4zelda:
  • IDIOTS who insist on playing with 2 stocks
  • MORONS who insist on playing with 3 stocks
  • The lack of :4jigglypuff: changes
  • Female-only tournaments
  • A lack of female-only tournaments
  • Bad commentary
  • Twitter, Reddit, and Facebook
  • :4mii::4miibrawl::4miigun::4miisword::4miif:
  • Custom moves
  • Abadango's character preference for the week
  • Sakurai [ANYTHING]
Did I miss anything?

Sweet.

LET'S MOVE ON.
  • Paying more then $59.99 to own the full aspect of the game.
  • Johners
  • Stage lists
  • Pause rules
  • Suicide clauses
I like Bayo for the same reason I like Ryu.

Tired of *** gobblers running around in neutral pressing buttons for free and when I SEE what they are doing, not getting a punish half the time or my risk is sometimes even greater then their risk is. Mario and his dair comes to mind.

If I know wtf you are going to do, then you should die for being so predictable and so pitifully weak.
It's the nature of the game. 4 can be very bland and offer such ease of access damage for so little. Brawl was more read heavy and patient because you couldn't just throw out moves. It's like chess (brawl) vs checkers (4). In chess you have to thoughtfully maneuver around the board to capture the king. In checkers there is thought going on, but it's far easier to take multiple pieces if you get one read. The way to move is also more finite.

:018:
 
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Tri Knight

Smash Ace
Joined
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Messages
783
So why does everybody hate bayonetta,cloud and rosalina so much?
Bayo has almost no risk for ultimate reward. Witch Time is an abomination of a counter that should have never had the power it does. Maybe if it made the attacker fly up into the air so Bayo couldn't get like 2 free smash attacks in and kill with it but that's not the case.

Cloud is extremely fast and powerful for having such amazing reach. Not to mention Limit Cross Slash is pretty powerful... he's got bad recovery without Limit Break but his onstage game can be very overwhelming to the point where it OVER compensates for his recovery. I don't think he's as unfair as Bayo though.

Rosalina has meat shield Luma to do her dirty work.
 

Emblem Lord

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Switch FC
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@Trela STAHPPPP!!!!

If you keep winning then Ryu's head will be on the chopping block next.

YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING!!!!!!!!!

Edit: Seagull Joe Seagull Joe

Totally disagree. Brawl was read heavy because kill confirms were far less prevalent. Neutral mostly led to a state of advantage that focused on stage control and optimal positioning. Not a full blown "you just lost your stock situation or are about half way to kill percent."

Also most good chars had ultra dominant hitboxes. Marth, MK, ZSS, Diddy, etc. For the most part all of them are far weaker now, then their Brawl counter parts.

In Smash 4 the neutral game overall is far more balanced due to some EXTREMELY smart design choices like giving a heavy such as Bowser more mobility and transcendent pokes as well as cutting down range overall on the swordsmen.

The nature of the entire series leans towards overtuned neutral tools that lead to massive reward.

Melee Falco laser, Melee Marth fair, Melee Fox dair, 64 kirby utilt, Brawl Marth d-tilt, Brawl Diddy Nana control, Smash 4 Bayo Witch Twist. I can keep going.

It FEELS more random now because EVERYONE's hitboxes are kinda "in sync" in terms of size and range and it really just comes down to spacing and hitbox interaction. So the smallest error in trying to punish something can lead to you getting hit then your world gets rocked.

Brawl felt like Chess because most characters simply werent hugely rewarded for single pokes. But it didnt mean the neutral of Brawl was vastly superior. Just meant you had alot more opportunities to **** up because you wouldnt die for it as quickly unless you were fighting IC's.
 
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Das Koopa

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Messages
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You actually missed (understandably) a much more stacked tournament in TX on saturday. Shockwave is BIG, but its still just a Dallas TX local.

Austin is Really Feeling It (March 19th)
1st: Trela (Ryu)
2nd:Grim Turtle (Bayonetta)
3rd: Megafox (Fox)
4th: Mew^2 (Mewtwo)
5th: Asa (Ness)
5th: Gnes (Toon Link/Marth)
7th: Aerolink (Bayonetta)
7th: Dakpo (ZSS/Luigi)
Thanks, added the full top 16 to the list.
 

valakmtnsmash4

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 27, 2015
Messages
708
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yathshiv
Things currently killing Smash 4:
  • :4cloud:
  • :4bayonetta:
  • :4sheik:
  • Too many patches
  • Not enough patches
  • :4littlemac:'s design
  • :4lucario:'s design
  • Zero
  • :4falcon:'s playstyle
  • :4wario2:'s playstyle
  • Rage
  • :rosalina: vs :4ness:
  • :rosalina: vs anyone
  • :4ness: vs anyone
  • Insufficient e-sports
  • Too much e-sports
  • Changes to :4metaknight:
  • Changes to :4luigi:
  • Something Zero said
  • Anything involving :4zelda:
  • IDIOTS who insist on playing with 2 stocks
  • MORONS who insist on playing with 3 stocks
  • The lack of :4jigglypuff: changes
  • Female-only tournaments
  • A lack of female-only tournaments
  • Bad commentary
  • Twitter, Reddit, and Facebook
  • :4mii::4miibrawl::4miigun::4miisword::4miif:
  • Custom moves
  • Abadango's character preference for the week
  • Sakurai [ANYTHING]
Did I miss anything?

Sweet.

LET'S MOVE ON.
You missed shulks awful startup and no auto cancel but that's none of my business.
Great list
 

L9999

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Apr 15, 2014
Messages
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Things currently killing Smash 4:
  • :4cloud:
  • :4bayonetta:
  • :4sheik:
  • Too many patches
  • Not enough patches
  • :4littlemac:'s design
  • :4lucario:'s design
  • Zero
  • :4falcon:'s playstyle
  • :4wario2:'s playstyle
  • Rage
  • :rosalina: vs :4ness:
  • :rosalina: vs anyone
  • :4ness: vs anyone
  • Insufficient e-sports
  • Too much e-sports
  • Changes to :4metaknight:
  • Changes to :4luigi:
  • Something Zero said
  • Anything involving :4zelda:
  • IDIOTS who insist on playing with 2 stocks
  • MORONS who insist on playing with 3 stocks
  • The lack of :4jigglypuff: changes
  • Female-only tournaments
  • A lack of female-only tournaments
  • Bad commentary
  • Twitter, Reddit, and Facebook
  • :4mii::4miibrawl::4miigun::4miisword::4miif:
  • Custom moves
  • Abadango's character preference for the week
  • Sakurai [ANYTHING]
Did I miss anything?

Sweet.

LET'S MOVE ON.
Smash 4 community in a nutshell. EDIT: You forgot too much Fire Emblem.
 
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Sonicninja115

Experiment. Innovate. Improve.
Joined
Jul 8, 2015
Messages
2,429
You actually missed (understandably) a much more stacked tournament in TX on saturday. Shockwave is BIG, but its still just a Dallas TX local.

Austin is Really Feeling It (March 19th)
1st: Trela (Ryu)
2nd:Grim Turtle (Bayonetta)
3rd: Megafox (Fox)
4th: Mew^2 (Mewtwo)
5th: Asa (Ness)
5th: Gnes (Toon Link/Marth)
7th: Aerolink (Bayonetta)
7th: Dakpo (ZSS/Luigi)
Did SU stream it? are there going to be VODs?

BTW, ZeRo's video is pretty spot on.
 
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TurboLink

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 3, 2014
Messages
1,156
3DS FC
4725-8278-5467
Things currently killing Smash 4:
  • :4cloud:
  • :4bayonetta:
  • :4sheik:
  • Too many patches
  • Not enough patches
  • :4littlemac:'s design
  • :4lucario:'s design
  • Zero
  • :4falcon:'s playstyle
  • :4wario2:'s playstyle
  • Rage
  • :rosalina: vs :4ness:
  • :rosalina: vs anyone
  • :4ness: vs anyone
  • Insufficient e-sports
  • Too much e-sports
  • Changes to :4metaknight:
  • Changes to :4luigi:
  • Something Zero said
  • Anything involving :4zelda:
  • IDIOTS who insist on playing with 2 stocks
  • MORONS who insist on playing with 3 stocks
  • The lack of :4jigglypuff: changes
  • Female-only tournaments
  • A lack of female-only tournaments
  • Bad commentary
  • Twitter, Reddit, and Facebook
  • :4mii::4miibrawl::4miigun::4miisword::4miif:
  • Custom moves
  • Abadango's character preference for the week
  • Sakurai [ANYTHING]
Did I miss anything?

Sweet.

LET'S MOVE ON.
You forgot grab combos. No down throw combo? Instantly unviable. :^)
 

Y2Kay

BLACK MAMBA FOREVER
Moderator
Joined
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Messages
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Location
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NNID
Why2Kay
Things currently killing Smash 4:
  • :4cloud:
  • :4bayonetta:
  • :4sheik:
  • Too many patches
  • Not enough patches
  • :4littlemac:'s design
  • :4lucario:'s design
  • Zero
  • :4falcon:'s playstyle
  • :4wario2:'s playstyle
  • Rage
  • :rosalina: vs :4ness:
  • :rosalina: vs anyone
  • :4ness: vs anyone
  • Insufficient e-sports
  • Too much e-sports
  • Changes to :4metaknight:
  • Changes to :4luigi:
  • Something Zero said
  • Anything involving :4zelda:
  • IDIOTS who insist on playing with 2 stocks
  • MORONS who insist on playing with 3 stocks
  • The lack of :4jigglypuff: changes
  • Female-only tournaments
  • A lack of female-only tournaments
  • Bad commentary
  • Twitter, Reddit, and Facebook
  • :4mii::4miibrawl::4miigun::4miisword::4miif:
  • Custom moves
  • Abadango's character preference for the week
  • Sakurai [ANYTHING]
Did I miss anything?

Sweet.

LET'S MOVE ON.
you forgot that mewtwo is still too light to be any good :^)

:150:
 

NairWizard

Somewhere
Joined
Oct 28, 2014
Messages
1,947
Part of the salt against Bayonetta and Cloud comes from smash 4 players being absolutely obsessed with followups in advantage. You don't always need to hit your opponent to gain an advantage.

It's totally baffling how most people will complain that you can't punish Bayonetta for using Witch Twist if she just resets to the ledge. The fact that she had to reset to the ledge is itself the punish. If this feels overpowered to you, the reason it feels overpowered is that you're really bad at converting your positional advantage into damage/the stock, allowing Bayonetta to get off the ledge for free.

It makes no sense for smashers to be this bad at such a key area of the game, because positional advantage matters more in smash 4 than in almost every single other fighting game--yet players of other fighting games like SF or Tekken actually know that just being able to walk forward while your opponent walks back often means more than damage ever could, while for smashers it's all about "combos."
 
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C0rvus

Pro Hands Catcher
Joined
Nov 11, 2014
Messages
1,554
Location
East Coast
I like Bayo for the same reason I like Ryu.

Tired of *** gobblers running around in neutral pressing buttons for free and when I SEE what they are doing, not getting a punish half the time or my risk is sometimes even greater then their risk is. Mario and his dair comes to mind.

If I know wtf you are going to do, then you should die for being so predictable and so pitifully weak.
Sorry, not sure if I follow. You like Bayonetta because she has ludicrous reward off of a safe poke in neutral? You want to be rewarded heavily for a correct choice in the neutral, unlike Brawl.

I can see why you would like this. I like rewarding choices as well. If only she wasn't so drastically better at this than the rest of the cast (barring maybe Ryu). That's what I think everyone takes issue with. If the entire cast was more like Bayonetta in terms or risk/reward, noone reasonable would take issue.

Personally, I don't want the game to be like that. I enjoy playing neutral, and needing to outplay my opponent multiple times in order to take their stock. Bayonetta kind of ****s on that notion and says "oh you messed up once? gimme that stock, kiddo."
She clashes with the bulk of the roster to a ridiculous degree, and I don't like that. I don't think it's good or bad for the game, but I don't like that dynamic.

She's pretty fun to play, though, so whatever.
 
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~ Gheb ~

Life is just a party
Joined
Jun 27, 2008
Messages
16,916
Location
Europe
Regardless how people feel about Bayonetta as a character overall ...

... Witch Twist is objectively a broken move and arguing that the game would be healthier if the move were nerfed sometime in the future is legit. No one move in smash history has ever had such a lopsided risk/reward ratio. Calling it "low risk / high reward" is quite an understatement.

:059:
 

Emblem Lord

The Legendary Lord
Joined
Aug 11, 2005
Messages
9,720
Location
Scotch Plains, NJ
NNID
ShinEmblemLord
3DS FC
3926-6895-0574
Switch FC
SW-0793-4091-6136
Bayo has enough power to force people to play the actual "game".

Yes. I like that.

And I said since her release Witch Twist was the most broken thing about her but you people cried about her counter.

Go figure.
 
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